Boys State: A Reflection of a Polarised Society

Factual America

3 Nov

Written By

Today is a special US presidential election edition of Factual America. Americans are heading to the polls. Will they re-elect Donald Trump? Or will they opt for a change and vote for Joe Biden? We can't say either way with any certainty.

What we can say is that America is a polarised society. And whatever the result, the politics of division are here to stay, so it seems. That division and polarisation are captured brilliantly in Boys State, the Sundance Jury Prize Winner from filmmakers Amanda McBaine and Jesse Moss.

The documentary shows what would happen if you put a thousand teenage boys together and put them in charge of the political landscape of America.

Despite the hand-me-down politics of their parents and grandparents, can a bunch of Texas teenage boys provide hope and point the way ahead?

We found out when we caught up recently with Amanda and Jesse from their home in California.

“It’s a little bit like the Stanford Prison Experiment, but for the Government.” - Jesse Moss

Time Stamps:

03:18 - The extent of polarisation in America.
04:03 - How Jesse’s feeling about the upcoming election.
05:45 - What it’s been like being so immersed in the presidential election.
06:53 - A brief synopsis of the film and what ‘Texas Boys State’ is.
09:22 - Why Boys and Girls State are so influential.
10:44 - First clip from the film: the forming of the two Boys State parties.
13:57 - The performative nature of the boys and how their political ideas mature over time.
15:31 - Different leadership styles and how this reflects back on US national politics.
21:24 - The logistics around making a film involving so many different subjects.
23:28 - Second clip: an inspirational speech from one of the candidates.
27:05 - The ways youth see the world differently from adults.
29:51 - How the boys have changed since the filming of the documentary.
31:44 - Third clip: the boys' passion for politics.
33:34 - Different responses people have to the film.
38:18 - How involved some of the boys become in the programme.
40:35 - What the main takeaway from the film is.
46:44 - What the directors think of the Boys State project as a whole.
49:32 - The dynamic nature of documentary filmmaking that’s emerged in the last few years.
51:42 - Other projects Amanda and Jesse are working on now.

Resources:

Boys State (2020)
The Texas Boys State
Alamo Pictures

Transcript for Factual America Episode 35 - Boys State: A Reflection of a Polarised Society

Amanda McBaine 0:00
My name is Amanda McBaine. I'm one of the coproducers and codirectors of Boys State.

Jesse Moss 0:04
Hi, I'm Jesse Moss and I'm the codirector, coproducer of Boys State.

Speaker 1 0:19
I will skip the part where I brag for three minutes about how great and cool I am. Seems we are all qualified young men of skill and character. People like that stuff. People like that stuff a lot.

Speaker 2 0:35
Some people say they're a sports junkie. I say I'm a politics junkie.

Speaker 3 0:41
I'm playing this like a game. I would like very much to win.

Speaker 5 0:44
I love it boys, I love it. Where are you from?

Speaker 6 0:45
I come from a very modest family. I want, of course, to be the first one to graduate from high school.

Speaker 7 0:50
I'm a progressive person. And I'm in a room full of mostly conservative people.

Speaker 8 0:55
Our masculinity shall not be infringed.

Speaker 9 1:00
I've never seen so many white people ever. I feel like everybody has this secret underlying need for bipartisanship.

Speaker 10 1:11
A message of unity, as good as it sounds, is not winning anyone any elections.

Speaker 11 1:18
Primary polls are now open, get yourselves ready for a turbulent election.

Speaker 12 1:27
Whatever happens dude, the best of luck.

Speaker 13 1:29
You win, I support you fully.

Speaker 14 1:30
My name is Steven Garza. And I'm running for governor.

Speaker 15 1:41
As to the political views most of my speech, sometimes you got to say what you got to say in an attempt to win.

Speaker 16 1:46
I think he's a fantastic politician. By I don't think a fantastic politician is a compliment.

Speaker 17 1:55
We're gonna do shocking. It's gonna be awesome.

Speaker 18 1:57
I want y'all to take out your phones and go on Instagram, everyone. Come on.

Speaker 19 2:01
Oh my god.

Speaker 20 2:09
We show the world what patriots are made of. That when things get tough, we pull ourselves by our bootstraps. One nation under God, members of the Constitution of the United States of America!

Speaker 21 2:24
That's politics, I think. That's politics.

Intro 2:29
That is the trailer for the award winning Apple and A24 documentary, Boys State. And welcome to a special presidential election edition of Factual America. Factual America is produced by Alamo pictures, a production company specializing in documentaries, television, and shorts about the USA for an international audience. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood, and every week we look at America through the lens of documentary filmmaking by interviewing filmmakers and experts on the American experience. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Alamo pictures to be the first to hear about new productions, to find out where you can see our films and to connect with our team.

Matthew 3:09
On November 3 Americans are heading to the polls. Will they reelect Donald Trump? Or will they opt for a change and vote for Joe Biden? We can't say either way with any certainty. What we can say is that America is a polarized society. And whatever the result, the politics of division are here to stay, so it seems. That division and polarization are captured brilliantly in Boys State, the Sundance Jury Prize Winner from filmmakers Amanda McBaine and Jesse Moss. Despite the hammy down politics of their parents and grandparents, can a bunch of Texas teenage boys provide hope and point the way ahead. We found out when we caught up recently with Amanda and Jesse from their home in California. Amanda McBaine and Jesse Moss, welcome to Factual America. Amanda and Jesse, how are things with you?

Jesse Moss 4:04
Not too bad. You know, we're headed into the election here in a few days. So on pins and needles, but otherwise good.

Matthew 4:12
Yeah, well, I mean, that's one reason we've got you on, I think. But before we get to that, just wanted to say thank you again for coming on. You've got quite an incredible back catalogue. But we are talking about your film Boys State, which Peter Travers of Rolling Stone says "A brilliant new documentary on an annual mock-government event offers a sobering, exhilarating look at the state of our nation." I would say it's an instant classic. Grand Jury Prize winner at Sundance back in February, which seems like eons ago. I saw it on Apple plus. And I believe, we're a UK based podcast, and I think it's even got a limited release right now. I think it's in Curzon cinemas if I'm not mistaken. So thanks so much for coming onto the podcast. Just so you know, listeners, we're recording this on October 28, 2020. So six days away from the election. And this releases, our usual release date is Tuesday. And this will be released on Tuesday, November 3, Election Day in the US. So we've been wanting to get you guys on for a while. And it seemed like the most appropriate, as I hope our listeners will realize soon, film to have released on third. So Amanda and Jesse, enough of my talking. What a ride you've must have been on these last eight months or so.

Jesse Moss 5:45
It's definitely been a ride. Many chapter. I mean, it's exciting. To have a political film in a political moment that's so charged is a little nerve wracking. But actually, it's been a really healthy way for us to engage in this political process that we"re consumed by. Because the film talks about all these big questions that we're interested in, but I think finds that kind of sideways angle to confront them. And that's kind of been healthier for us than being consumed by all these clickbait articles about Donald Trump. There's only so much of that that any one human being can absorb.

Matthew 6:24
Yeah, indeed. Now, I think it's a logline, I saw on IMDb - a thousand 17-year old boys from Texas join together to build a representative government from the ground up. I think it's a great logline. I'm not sure if it's necessarily one that would necessarily grab people's attention or think this is a, you know, going to be this amazing doc. But maybe you can give us a synopsis of this film for those who haven't had a chance to watch it yet.

Amanda McBaine 6:53
Sure. I mean, Jesse and I were, I think, like a lot of people, trying to make sense of the Trump's election in 2016. And trying to really think about how our country becomes so divided and so polarized, and trying to imagine where we were headed next. This was all the way back in early 2017. We read this article about the Texas Boys State program that year, having voted to secede from the union, which was kind of wild and crazy. But also we had not known about the program. So this was news for us that this existed. Boys and girls state, they are programs sponsored by the American Legion in the United States. Each state has one, where as he said, kids come together and build the government from the ground up from scratch. And we thought, wow, that's kind of a wild space really, where people who have such different policies are coming together to talk, face to face. That's a very rare space and probably rare every day that's gone by since 2017.

Jesse Moss 7:58
It's a little bit like the Stanford Prison Experiment, except for government. I think that was the opportunity here, to see the kind of controlled experiment, looking at democracy as played by 17 year old boys in Texas. And it's, I think there's an element of the film that, you're right, the logline sounds maybe a bit abstract, or you can't quite make sense of it. But we went in very much planning to make a coming of age movie, kind of a classic coming of age. Because if you actually looked at the work of Richard Linklater, Dazed and Confused, which, of course, is a scripted film, but anybody going in to talk to Texas teenagers needs to look at that film. And I think, you know, we knew that this was a playful space, but also a serious space. And we like that tension. And the film is entertaining. It's a comedy, you laugh, but it's also a little bit terrifying. And I think a little bit hopeful, too.

Matthew 8:48
For transparency's sake, I'm a native Texan, born and raised. Dazed and Confused do come to mind a few times. You've got a few characters that are straight out of that film, I think. But back to Boys State. I mean, you know, there's some amazing alumni here, Bill Clinton, Dick Cheney. Not even just politics. Tom Brokaw, Garth Brooks, even Al Jarreau of all people. I mean, what is, I think you've alluded to it already, but what is boys and girls state? They've both been going on since 1937.

Jesse Moss 9:22
That's right. It's actually deeply, deeply woven through the fabric of American life and has been for eighty years, but it's kind of hiding in plain sight. Unless you went to the program, it's not something you would know about or necessarily even talk about. And yet I think it's really an important launchpad for young people who have ambitions in politics, be they young men or young women, because there is a girl state program too. They just keep them separate. And it's sponsored by the American Legion, which is a military veterans organization, which is always been a little bit conservative. And so the program is itself a little bit conservative. You see that in our film. A lot of white conservative Texas teenagers. But that also provides, I think, in our story, a really interesting tension and that we're looking at some of the newer, more progressive voices coming into this conversation. And it's a place where people who have ambitions in politics like Bill Clinton, who became President, went through that, and I think sort of catapulted them into the real thing, as it were. We weren't so focused on discovering the next Bill Clinton, really just wanting to know how teenage boys were processing politics and the health of democracy. And sort of how fixed they were in their own ideologies.

Speaker 1 10:42
It's a little early to start running for governor, don't you think? We don't even have a party fund yet? You don't have any support in the primaries?

Speaker 2 10:51
You have to start early.

Speaker 1 10:52
You don't have to start this early. What do you believe in?

Speaker 3 10:55
My use will most likely align with the party for the majority of them, I want to hear open debates.

Speaker 1 11:01
In another words, you're waiting for the party to come up with an opinion? And then you're gonna go with the party? What do you stand for though?

Speaker 5 11:08
I stand for freedom.

Speaker 1 11:09
You stand for freedom. It's a bold policy.

Matthew 11:11
You've explained how, because I was going to ask you later, but you've explained how it ended up being Texas and how you got into, you know, this became an idea for film. But what happens in that week? I mean, Texas is a naturally conservative state. So it's going to be, even if you just draw from the population, according to the demographics, you're going to end up with a pretty conservative group of boys. They're all boys, that's another element. But they divide into two parties, right? Regardless of ideology, it's kind of random, that they just split them into halves, right? That they then form these Federalists and Nationalist parties.

Amanda McBaine 11:51
That's right, that's one of the first things that happens. They do get divided into two value-agnostic parties. One's called the Federalists and one is called the Nationalist and it's randomly assigned. I will say that the program, I'm not sure it does actually represent the demographics of Texas politically and in every other way. Because it does draw very heavily as a kind of older program and also, there's legacy of where the Legion halls are situated. They do draw heavily from rural counties. And they are trying to, at least in Texas, push towards the next chapter and kind of 21st century representation of how Texas looks today and tomorrow. But the parties are really interesting, because almost from the get go, and this is before they even build their platforms, the kids have already aligned with their group in a kind of this, like, instant tribal face off. And that's before anybody has discussed what they're actually standing for. And that kind of energy was really interesting to be confronted with almost right away.

Matthew 13:07
What struck me as well is that, because I had heard of Boys State, I went to high school with, I think, a boy, Steven Portnoy, if you're listening, I think he went to Boys State. It always struck me that it wasn't so much national issues, like Model UN or international ones, but it was more sort of almost a simulation kind of thing. But what struck me is, watching this one, at least in 2018 or whenever you've recorded this, issues are very national. I think Peter Travers put it well as these hand me down issues. It almost feels like they've taken on their parents or somebodies political viewpoints and adopted them without, in some ways, even thinking about them. I mean that both left and right to a degree. And maybe it's because they're just 17 year old, 16 year old boys.

Jesse Moss 13:56
That's what's so interesting about it, is these boys are half formed. They're not grown up yet. And so they're trying things on, they're putting on a performance. They're sort of trying out their own politics, they're taking other politics and seeing how they sound in a room. And I think that, as a controlled experiment, you see coursing through this big and unruly group, these powerful issues that were gripped by, not just in our country, but you know, in the UK, immigration, guns, hot button topics like abortion. I mean, of course, they debate sort of whatever they choose to debate. That's the wonderful thing about it, the adults are not saying you need to talk about this, that and the other thing. And so they begin the week talking about banning cargo shorts and sending Prius drivers to the state of Oklahoma. And it's kind of hilarious. And we have a good laugh. And you think, is this all it's gonna be? Is it joke? But actually, what you see in the film, what happens is the boys start to kind of find their serious side. And they start to actually take on things like tax reform and gun reform, and unlikely candidates, bubbled to the surface and that's what's in our film.

Matthew 15:01
Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, one thing that did strike me is, I imagine it's like society in general. You're gonna have a few people show up, few boys show up to this and think it's a week to have a good time and a laugh. And then there's those of us who take things really seriously. And as you say, there's some interesting candidates that come to the fore. I mean, this all culminates in a gubernatorial election, doesn't it?

Amanda McBaine 15:29
Yes. So there's not just the legislature sort of working out bills or two parties forming their platforms, there's also electoral politics. So yes, there is the working out of what you believe in. But then there's also the working out of what you believe is the right way to get elected. And that's the other sort of drama that unfolds in what we filmed, which is a real kind of epic battle between leadership styles. And that is a really interesting fact. And sort of the moral choices that kids make when they're learning by doing their way through government and elections.

Jesse Moss 16:08
And how do you, you know, you have a powerful minority, or you have a powerful middle, which we have in this country too. That can decide an election, you know. You have your hardcore left or hardcore right. And then this group in the middle, it's going to decide an election. And how do you mobilize them? How do you reach that? How do you win a majority? And can you stand on your principles? Do you have to lie? That's what some people do in our film. And watching young people negotiate these decisions really kind of reflects back on our national politics and our national leadership. And I think that's kind of where the interesting conversation for an audience comes to sort of extrapolating what the film has to say to this bigger, more important conversation.

Matthew 16:47
Indeed. But one thing, it also struck me, maybe this is directed to Amanda, there's a lot of testosterone in that room. How did you all manage with that?

Amanda McBaine 17:02
I think that's part of what made it interesting, frankly, is there's so few spaces like that, that I've ever been. I've never been in a space like that, actually. And to have a window on boyhood, in 2018, the way that we did, was sort of something that I don't think we thought about as like a reason to going to make this film, but something that we then recognize we had once we got there. And I came with a certain set of expectations about what I was going to see. And to some degree I had those expectations met. There was a certain level of toxic masculinity, I could even say, but certainly Lord of the Flies -iness in a way that didn't surprise me. And then, as Jesse mentioned, as the week went by, all kinds of different things got built, all kinds of alliances were made. All kinds of people you hadn't expected to rise to the top, rose to the top. And that was a real lesson. Or maybe a reminder for me that there's a lot more going on out there, in terms of, you know, people's need for empathic leadership, for instance. That is true to 17 year old boys too. And that was a really special takeaway for me from spending a week with this group.

Jesse Moss 18:27
And it's not just a contest of political ideologies, of personalities, but of masculine identities. And that's what's so interesting to see two starkly different identities, one of empathy, one of compassion, and one of kind of militarized strength. And I think, you know, you don't need to look far to see that replicated in the Biden-Trump contest. Sort of eerie, I think, how what we saw anticipated this moment. Maybe it's inevitable, because we know that there are politicians who preach to our dreams and our hopes and those who play to our fears and our divisions. And we see that kind of naturally replicate itself at Boys State. And kind of confirming what we wanted to investigate, which was to what extent are these norms of behavior that we see in Washington DC kind of trickling down and you could say, kind of contaminating the pool for young people?

Matthew 19:23
Okay. I think that takes us to a good point for maybe an early break for our listeners. So let's do that now, and we will be back with Amanda and Jesse after a few moments.

Factual America midroll 19:39
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter at Alamo pictures to keep up to date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.

Speaker 2 20:00
Definitely my upbringing has led to where I am today. My mom worked at a gas station. She was undocumented for a time. She is what I think the American you should be. An immigrant who started from the bottom, worked her way up, and is living a okay life in America. I am third oldest. I'm the first one to get past freshman year of high school. I want, of course to be the first one to graduate from high school. So it's almost like I have to succeed. You know, a parent telling you that they're proud of you is one of the most amazing things you could ever hear in your entire life.

Matthew 20:43
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Amanda McBaine and Jesse Moss codirectors and coproducers of Boys State, "a revolution in verite filmmaking" says Variety. I just want to pinpoint a question here. How the hell did you get this film made? It's what kept coming to me while I was watching this. You've already talked about the idea. You've already said why was Texas this article? But if this is cinema verite, I mean, you're working with 1100 potential subjects. How did you do this?

Jesse Moss 21:24
I think that films are really acts of levitation and particularly a film like this. Looking back, there's sort of no rational path to getting it made. Finding the people who would be our stars, dealing with this enormous cast, covering all of this story that was unscripted in the moment. But that's also what we love about documentary filmmaking, you just sort of have to find a will and a way to make it, if you believe in it. And we had actually no idea whether there would even be a story here. Because we've never been to the program. We just saw some pictures, we read a story. But that's also exciting. And first we found young men who we thought were infinitely compelling. These four guys in the movie are just fascinating. They're smart, they're ambitious, they're complicated, they're vulnerable. They're sort of everything you'd want in any movie subject, and we just kind of yoked our giant production train to them and they pulled us along and, you know, we had a financing partner. We've never had that on a cinema verite, cause usually you can never persuade anybody to believe in your folly, your dream, your Fitzcarraldo of pushing a boat up a hill. But we did manage to bamboozle Concordia studio into financing the movie. And they believed in our crazy idea. And that allowed us to bring together this incredible team of cinematographers, who are the best practitioners of cinema verite that we know in the world, frankly. And they all kind of brought their A game and we paired them up with the characters, we said, you follow Robert, you follow Steve, and you follow Rene. And we were sort of the generals, kind of, trying to oversee this unwieldy army of production. But it's very different than the way we're used to working, which is one man band, you know, long, months and months and months and months. This was like a hurricane. It's what Amanda says.

Amanda McBaine 23:22
When stakes were high, we had to capture it, or we had nothing. We had a movie.

Speaker 1 23:26
My grandmother told me a few things: you have to have faith, hope, and a bit of a pissed off attitude. (crowd cheers)

Speaker 2 23:40
I want to be simple and represent a whole working body. And we're gonna take the example of a plain body. It has two wings, a left one and a right one, we're not going to pick one, we're gonna stay in the middle because we're not an intolerable party, we're one that is palatable to all. And so as long as we're able to keep this plane of fault with a healthy right wing and a healthy left wing, we have the ability and the capability to pummel any federalist into the ground, because we are the only party that's worth voting for, because it's this party that's going to represent every individual.

Speaker 3 24:15
Vote for me through your state champ.

Matthew 24:29
You already alluded to the, what I guess are the four main characters, but how did you know whom to focus on? Because some of them you've got footage of them from even before they got to Boys State, if I recall correctly. I mean, was that just luck? How were you able to screen or identify your best bets for subjects?

Amanda McBaine 24:53
We knew, as we mentioned that this program is going to be intense and finite. And because it moves so quickly, we didn't want to be casting on the fly for something that important and that immersive. So we spent about three months before the event, going all around Texas. We had 1100 people to talk to, and we didn't talk to all of them, but we tried to. And it was a lot of spending time with kids in their rooms, in their houses, meeting their families, seeing them play their instruments, talk about whatever team they plan. You know, you just, you feel your way through. We did know that we needed to find the kids we thought would be able to do well, in this sort of contest. And that meant kids who were going to be ambitious and go for governor. That meant kids who knew something about politics, either because they worked in politics, or because they had great knowledge of it. All of them, by the way, the people we picked have a real knowledge, are history buffs. And that was part of what attracted us to them, too. But we also because it's a film and we'd heard that this event could be a kind of crucible, we did want people who were vulnerable enough, sort of flexible enough and who they were to potentially have a transformation in this period, this sort of brief period of time. And that's a certain somebody that's really, like, strong enough to do well, but also open enough to like, you know, be willing to change. I think that, we kind of, did get lucky, though, in the fact that the four people we really held tightly on to, did all of those things. And we were there to film it, so.

Matthew 26:45
Well done you. I think, if we need people to identify the political stars of the future, you may be the ones to go around to find them. But, not to name names, we are talking about only, you know, 16-17 year boys, but did you have more than four? Did you have a few that ended up kind of falling by the wayside because they didn't...

Jesse Moss 27:05
Not too many. We had a couple that we had our eye on beforehand, who we had met and filmed. We thought you might amount to something here at Boys State, and they just didn't. Because that's what happens. So I think, you know, our instincts were good, our luck was good. I think, look, it's also no secret that, you know, we have 16 year olds who are leading political movements around the world. These people are ready, they're not waiting, they're ready to help fix this giant mess that we're in here. And they have a kind of moral authority that a lot of adults seem to have abdicated. And also they showed at Boys State, of all places, which is a little bit conservative, as we've talked about. You know, we have these heroes in our film who are politically progressive, one's a Bernie Sanders supporter, one's a Black Lives Matter activist, they managed to not only find their own voice, but to find connection and common cause with this conservative group. And they did that not by abandoning their principles, but by finding common ground and doing something that adults in Washington certainly cannot do. How do they do it? What's the secret sauce? I don't know. Partly, it's maybe they just don't have the baggage. They're not so fixed in their identities and their politics. They are just growing up in a different time. They feel the threats of climate change and gun violence in acute ways that adults simply do not. We're insulated from this stuff. And that made us hopeful. I mean, there's dirty tricks and the dark sides of politics in our movie, too. You see that. But we saw a lot that was really helpful.

Matthew 28:41
I've often said, I tell I've got some Gen Zers children. I always tell them that they're the ones that are going to save the world. And I really mean that actually. And I think this film, maybe oddly, because I know some people, well, we'll get to this in a minute, but some people are not, you see some of the online comments. I think some people are still taken aback by this film, but I don't think they really understand that there is this underlying message of hope in this film. You said, we focus on the four boys, Steve Garza, Robert MacDougall, Rene Otero, Ben Feinstein. All very interesting. I noticed, Ben's from my hometown.

Jesse Moss 29:27
San Antonio?

Matthew 29:28
Yep. So I saw recently he's been interviewed by San Antonio paper, says his views have changed over the last few years, as you've kind of alluded to. He was only 17 then. He's now in his, what, maybe 20. And he's starting to take a more nuanced view of the world. Have you kept in touch with the other subjects as well?

Amanda McBaine 29:50
Oh, yeah, they're a big part of our life, actually. Going all the way back to sharing a rough cut of the film. You know, it's important for us that we were making a film with these people. Particularly they're young people, and they are changing and growing. And then they were all with us at our premiere and Sundance in January. And then since then they've been touring with us, and the film and sharing it on zoom and everything else. But yes, they're all, they're now sophomores in college. You know, I don't know how much Ben's, actually his political views have changed, but I do know how much he has reflected now on his actions at Boys State. Where he was part of that kind of win at all cost strategy, zero sum game of politics. I think, in watching the film, and then also in experiencing in our country being two years older and kind of further into this fragile space that we find ourselves in. He's a deep patriot, and I think he understands, okay, you may win by doing everything in your power, win at all costs, you know, kind of gamesmanship. But once you get that power, then you've got a damaged body politic. And then what, right? And I think he's sort of now having, seen the other side of the event because he never really met Steven Garza and Rene. Seeing them humanized and also seeing some of the kind of effects, personal effects of his actions on them, has really been a profound moment of growth for Ben. And I love hearing him talk about it, because it's powerful stuff, because I know it comes from both a love of people, but also a love of country.

Speaker 1 31:44
You know, some people say they're a sports junkie, I say, I'm a politics junkie. We live in the greatest democracy in the world. And I feel like a big problem is there's a lot of people today that are willing to discount the idea that America truly is a great country. Hard work can still get you to where you want to go, you just might have to work harder. And it's like, I think about me, right? Like I'm an amputee, right? Like, it is not fair that I am missing my legs, I am put at a disadvantage that most other people do not have to deal with. But like, clearly, I've been reasonably successful. And it's like, I've had to work harder. And I've had to work to overcome that. And the more we keep focusing on these other factors like race or gender or disability, none the less, we pendant to individual failings. I think that's a very, very bad thing for this nation. And I think like we're individuals, right? I don't think of myself as white, I think of myself as 10.5 side American, right.

Speaker 2 32:43
Future present?

Speaker 1 32:44
Yeah, we'll see.

Matthew 32:46
Yeah, I'm not gonna put words in his mouth. And also, we can link to the article that I saw, I think that was back in August. But essentially, what I get from him is that he's looking at, he's gonna leave politics. He wants to serve his country in other ways, which he already mentioned in the film, if I recall correctly, about maybe even working for, say, the CIA or the Department of Defense or something like that. But I think maybe that's the lesson. I mean, you know, better than me, but part of the lessons he's learned from this. I mean, what struck you the most, as you observe this week unfold? Is Boys State really a microcosm of, you know, America's polarized politics?

Jesse Moss 33:32
I want to go back to something you said too, which is, you know, some people watch the film and have sort of a terrified response. And I think the film creates the space for people to bring their own feelings about this particular political moment, maybe their own feelings about being in high school. And, you know, the film is not prescriptive, we're not providing answers. And I think that, you know, maybe because it's released by A24, and Apple, of course, A24 is known for their well, films like Moonlight, but also films like Hereditary, their horror films, they sort of see the horror side. And I think, maybe they choose to overlook what to us is incredibly inspiring. And that's voices, like Steven's and like Rene's, these young men of color, who are coming to power. Have been denied a seat at the table politically in our country, or sort of, structurally disadvantaged in that political system. And they are coming to power now. And you see that happening in the film. And I think that, you know, by failing to recognize their voice, I think you're overlooking something really powerful and important. And I think, look, we are happy to make a film that embraced it all. Like I said, the good, the bad, the ugly, and to recognize that, you know, I think a work of art sort of creates a space where people kind of can bring their own projection into the conversation. And that's to us exciting. Some people who expect documentary to be a little more orthodox, a little more kind of cut and dried, a little more like work of agit-prop, they're like, wait a minute. But for us, that's exciting nonfiction storytelling.

Matthew 35:15
I think it's hopeful in so many, I mean, I put my own personal views onto this, but I think it's hopeful in so many more different ways. I mean, it's not just about my view, not just about Steve Garza and Rene Otero, but the other two main ones, Robert MacDougall. You could see him growing up in front of your eyes in just that one week. Ben, I mean, all these boys. I mean, it'd be very easy to just waste away their summers, you know, I did. They come to this thing. There's a lot of, not ashamed to showing emotion with each other and, you know, being very upfront. People telling Steve how much they respect him for what he's achieved in just that one week. The guy who ends up winning, I mean, he's the son of Italian immigrants. I mean, it's kind of, it's all there. I guess where I'm getting to is, I saw something recently, I'm talking too much. But I saw a focus group with Frank Luntz, who's the republican pollster, but it was a group on the LA Times, is a bunch of undecideds, pretty much across the board. Said they were ashamed of politics as it now stands. And I thought it was riveting watching, actually, if anyone gets a chance, says a lot about what many Americans face in terms of US politics and elections. But then I saw this only a few days later. And I find it extremely uplifting. All the bravado notwithstanding.

Amanda McBaine 36:59
I think that's part of it, actually. I think that the whole point of, anyway, we are optimists we come and we see what we see. And I think, you know, it's all fair, whatever people experience watching this film, and it may change day to day depending on where you're situated on that hope-despair spectrum because of this current election. I mean, I get it. But to me, what's so fascinating is like, there is a lot that we saw at Boys State that is reflected in national politics that is very aggravating, terrifying, wrong. You know, racism, jingoism, demagoguery? I mean, all these big bias, all of that stuff appeared at Texas Boys State. And groupthink and mob mentality and unruly gallery. I mean, all of it is just part of the system, and you can't not look at it. Because it's not going anywhere. That's sort of how I feel about it. And what's so great is someone like Steven and someone like Rene, they're not naive in their hopefullness. They see it all. And then the question is, what do you do now?

Jesse Moss 38:11
But I think you're right to recognize Robert too, I mean, not to exclude them. And Ben, as we've talked about, has had a moral awakening. Robert comes to know himself in a pretty profound way and redeems himself. You think he's a bit of a cad, but he's actually much more thoughtful person. And I think what they all have in common, which we also like, is that they throw themselves into the process. They are not on the sidelines. They are recognizing that democracy is not a spectator sport. Something that sort of, I think we all grew up feeling, that it was going to take care of itself. That it would heal itself. And I think Trump's exposed the vulnerabilities of our system that is ultimately built on goodwill and good intentions and good people. And it's only as good as people make it. And so, I just like that these guys all throw themselves in to this process of Boys State. They continue to be active in political life in different ways. Robert's at West Point, he'll be in the military for the next eight years or more. And Ben is gonna maybe work for the CIA, bless him. And, you know, Rene and Steven are finding different paths. Stephen's actually working on a campaign now in Austin. Wendy Davis is running for Congress, and he's helping her get elected, good for him. So that to me, is hopefully what young people can connect with to is, wherever you sit on the political spectrum, you know, a reminder that you need to not just be active, but you need to understand this process of democracy and to find your role in it. Not just voting, it's more than that.

Matthew 39:47
Yeah, I think that's a very good point. Amanda, you also referred to this, I mean. The B word comes up, bipartisanship shows up in the film a few times. Which seems like so 70s or 80s? I don't know how far back, you have to go now to really get a feel for when we used to have bipartisanship. These kids are just, in that sense, just, you know, the only lessons they've known, certainly their entire years have just been dominated by increasing polarization. It's not just something that happened in 2016. Do you think this film provides a way forward? What is the lasting message or takeaway?

Amanda McBaine 40:38
I think you're right, that whoever wins this presidential election, it doesn't mean that polarization is going to end anytime soon. We still have to figure out ways to talk to one another without viewing the other side as your sworn enemy. And I think that you're right that one thing that's energizing about young people, is this kind of commitment to, or they know that the adult state, as it were, has kind of failed them on some level in being able to talk through or work through any of these very major existential threats that they in particular face. Whether it's climate crisis, or gun violence, or systemic racism. These are things that are so big, that we're going to have to get our act together all hands on deck to really tackle them. I think, what Jesse was just saying that kids like these, I do feel my take away every time I watch the film, being excited by their level of engagement. And it wasn't just them, there were plenty of other kids in that group that we just didn't follow. But they are committed to, they know that you cannot sail...

Jesse Moss 41:59
I think we're hungry for models of inspired leadership. And whether they come in the form of Steven Garza or somebody of a much more advanced age, I think they're still powerful. And we've been sharing the film on college campuses across the country for the last couple of months. And it's kind of great to make a documentary that young people can connect with. We showed the film at the premiere to our teenage daughter, to have an intergenerational conversation. But I think people see, to go back to Steven for a second, a way that he manages to walk a tightrope and holding on to his principles, but also being open and hearing, valuing the perspectives of the people who sit on the other side of that divide. And I think we just need to see more examples. I don't think we're naive. It's not simple. It's not easy. It's never been more rancorous. It's been at times violent in our country. But the power of a voice like Stevens, in a room like that is evident in the film, that he can summon these people this grapple to their better angels. These are not abstract words, you see and feel the power of his oratory. This is, you know, a boy who we expected nothing from. And so that, that's great.

Amanda McBaine 43:21
Because that's what politics is at its best, right? To be able to make union between people who are different. And that is really what is the potential of it when it's done at its best. And obviously, we've seen what happens at its worst.

Jesse Moss 43:37
I love that moment, there's a small moment in the film, when Steven is trying to get enough signatures on his ballot to qualify for governor and he's approached a boy in this big auditorium. And he says, will you sign my petition? And the boy says, well, what's the purpose of a politician? And there's something to that effect. And Stephen says, to serve others and not yourself. As if we needed to be reminded, you know. I don't know, I find that reassuring.

Matthew 44:07
I did, too. And I felt that whole, you know, everyone should just watch the film. A lot of times we get, on these podcast, we go a lot more into the plot, but I didn't want to do that. I think it's one that you just want to go into, and just start watching. It's a brilliant film. But that did strike me too, this whole struggle he has just to get those 30 signatures. There's been a lot, there's a lot of great talented people out there, who've just not been able to get over that simple hurdle, who potentially could be amazing leaders, you know. And his struggle, and also how he, I thought that was, how well you captured that was him reaching out. He always sat down, very personable. He took it easy. He's not some big, charismatic personality in the way a lot of people would think of leadership, I guess. But on a one to one basis. He knows his strengths. He comes in, you know, he's only 17, my god. When I was 17, I couldn't do anything like this. But he goes in there, just really connects with each person and says, I want to know what you want, and not in a, I'm just going to do what the public, the majority wants and follow opinion polls or whatever. He really does indeed care what people are looking for.

Jesse Moss 45:20
Now it's, he's pure of spirit, I think he was very helpful in anchoring us through that ...

Amanda McBaine 45:26
He's our nrorth star.

Jesse Moss 45:27
...tumultuous experience, he kept us grounded.

Speaker 1 45:30
And I've had to listen to people who have said, things that I've inherently opposed and disagreed with.

Speaker 2 45:37
You do need to identify illegal immigrants, for their own safety as much as for the safety of the nation.

Speaker 1 45:43
But I listen with an open mind.

Speaker 3 45:44
So I propose a law to where law enforcement can still use drones out of their line of sight.

Speaker 1 45:51
There are a lot of people that I've met that have different lives than I have. Their upbringing, what issues affect them.

Speaker 4 45:57
Next thing we know, there were gunshots and everything. And it happened in our hallway.

Speaker 5 46:01
So concealed carry, I feel is here to stay. Because, in my hometown, rolling up small was shot up, but someone with a concealed carry license was able to fly back.

Speaker 1 46:11
People don't like the word compromise. Like, there's so many things that we've been able to come to agreements upon.

Speaker 6 46:16
Background checks. This is non partisan, we are simply making sure that guns do not fall into the hands of those who will use them to harm other people.

Matthew 46:34
So now that you've been through all this, Boys, Girls State, thumbs up, thumbs down, what do you think of the project?

Amanda McBaine 46:44
Well, TBD on Girls State, we're going to film a Girls state sequel. We call it sibling, has to be as good. We love all our children. So I yes, I think that there's a lot to question. I don't know, I feel I'm pretty pro-boys state given that the Learn by Doing experience of it is really vivid for certainly the kids that we closely followed in our anecdotal experience.

Jesse Moss 47:16
And we're happy to call out the inadequacies of the program. The ways in which it does not truly represent the diversity of Texas, or other states. The institution needs to change and is changing with the times. Certainly the guys we met in Texas who run it are working hard to reach out and make sure that they do mirror the face of modern Texas and not the Texas of the 1950s. You feel that a little bit in the film, they're a little bit old fashioned. We're also not here to promote the program. But I think what we do value, whether it's this program, or other programs are spaces in American life, where people of different politics can come together face to face. And there are very few of them. They're rare still. Even within families, you know, you find these divisions that are kind of unbridgeable. And I think we need to value the ones we have, find new ones. And, you know, so much of our interactions are now mediated through social media. And I think that's what attracted us to boys state is analog as it is, is I think part of its value, is you really get to know these people around you. And so that's, you know, again, we're not here to endorse the program, but I think we do recognize what's incredibly valuable about it and what can be changed. Maybe we'll have peoples state as Steven says in the film, why not peoples state, boys and girls making government together? That makes a lot of sense to me.

Matthew 48:42
And then he quickly backtracks and says, I'm just meaning you. But, you know, I mentioned this, my teenage daughter, I'm hoping she'll watch the film. She's heard about i seeing some clips. And she's like, I just think it's a really bad idea to have a bunch of teenage boys all together, doing something like that, you know, it's just kind of

Unknown Speaker 49:01
really want to know what teenage girls think about the movie, I wanna have like a focus group of teenage girls.

Matthew 49:06
If you want, if you want to, essentially British American, teenage girls view, then I can volunteer my daughter.

Unknown Speaker 49:14
I want to make her your guinea pig. Yes.

Matthew 49:16
Um, so films that usually do go get chosen for Sundance and let alone ones that when the Jury Prize, usually go on to Oscar nominations, what he, what do you think about that? You? Do you think about,

Unknown Speaker 49:32
oh, yeah, one day at a time? No,

Amanda McBaine 49:34
you know, I mean, I think that there's so many great films this year. It's really one of those years for documentary.

Which is great for the world, frankly, so.

Matthew 49:44
Well, yeah. Um, I mean, that that raises a good point. You're you've guys are more experienced documentarians? I mean, is this. I've asked this question before is this is this a golden age of documentary I mean, it's it is pretty amazing. What's happen. In the last few years,

Unknown Speaker 50:01
you know, we've it's a good time. And but we've been able to make work independent work that we're proud of, you know, out pulled up still for 25 years, and we've just found ways to do it. I think that streaming platforms are have really accelerated what's possible,

Unknown Speaker 50:22
and

Amanda McBaine 50:24
also increased the access to documentary. So you have a big audience now, which is a global

Unknown Speaker 50:29
audience is exciting. Certainly not to, you know, something immediate. Yeah. I think it's, it's a very dynamic time and nonfiction. And I think the form is also breaking open and always a new new and exciting ways. So

Unknown Speaker 50:47
yeah,

Amanda McBaine 50:48
yes, films being told in all different manners, which is really what you what's that's a healthy art form that people don't feel constructed by any kind of rules. I think

Unknown Speaker 50:57
the like the limited series, the streaming, limited series, folk, the sort of really drills down into one story, but gives it a big canvas. And there's always the hazard that you sort of draw it out too much. And by the eighth episode, you've like maybe you've run out of gas, but but I think that recognizing that they're just some stories that demand more screen time is is a great opens up great possibilities.

Matthew 51:19
Okay. Well, I recognize that I think my speaking of time that our time together is drawing too close. Mainly because I there was an accident on the a 64 between New York and Leeds this evening. So my apologies, but I just wanted to one last thing. You mentioned girl state, but any other projects that you would like to mention.

Unknown Speaker 51:42
We have a secret political film, that's a kind of sequel to boy state, but in a very different way that we're we're finishing and we hope will come out sometime early in 2021. And I can't say anything more about that. But there is a really interesting relationship between the projects.

Matthew 51:58
I'm really looking forward to hearing more about that. And if I haven't, we haven't scared you off. We'd love to have you back on. So just thank you once again. Amanda and Jesse, for for coming on to the podcast. Really appreciate it. Amanda McBain Jesse masco directors and producers of Boise State Apple TV plus or in the UK at least last I checked Curzon cinemas thanks to well to our listeners. And a shout out to this is distorted studios in Leeds, England. And please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen, or watch podcasts. And if you're new here if you're in the US, please go out today if you're listening to this on day one of the release and and vote. And this is factual America, signing off.

Intro 52:53
You've been listening to factual America. This podcast is produced by Elmo pictures specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for international audiences. head on down to the shownotes for more information about today's episode, our guests and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at Alamo pictures, be the first to hear about new productions festival showing our films and to connect with our team. Our homepage is Alamopictures.co.uk

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Boys State: A Reflection of a Polarised Society

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Boys State: A Reflection of a Polarised Society

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