Public Trust: The Urgency to Protect US Public Lands
America is a land of natural beauty and natural resources. Unfortunately, these too often come into conflict. Never was this more true when it comes to America's 640 million acres of public lands.
Filmmakers David Byars and Jeremy Rubingh document the fight to protect America's public lands for future generations in their film Public Trust which recently premiered on YouTube with tremendous success.
The executive producers of the film are Patagonia's founder Yvon Chouinard and famous actor and founder of the Sundance Film Festival Robert Redford.
Factual America caught up with David Byars from his home in Ojai, California, and Jeremy Rubingh aboard his sailboat in the Puget Sound.
"Public lands is this huge democratic American idea that you don't really see really in many other countries around the world. It's an opportunity for unity and healing, and for everybody to come together and protect something good for future generations." - Jeremy Rubingh
Time Stamps:
3:55 - The topic of todayโs episode and who our guests are.
5:42 - The success and the reception of the film and where it can be seen.
6:54 - The synopsis of Public Trust.
9:24 - How much public land there is in the US and how it is defined.
10:54 - The first clip from the film about the unique concept of public land in the US.
13:00 - How the fight for public land and conservation has come to be politicized.
20:58 - The impact that the Trump administration has had on the protection of public lands.
25:24 - The second clip from the film, about Native American ownership of public lands.
30:54 - How the idea for the Public Trust project came about.
34:24 - What Patagonia stands for and how its founder and Robert Redford got involved.
40:50 - How the team decided to premiere the film on YouTube.
42:45 - Who the main characters in the film are.
48:30 - The difficulties with capturing the beauty of public lands on film.
51:08 - What Public Trust is really about.
53:35 - What David and Jeremy want to achieve with this film.
1:00:50 - The next project David and Jeremy are working on.
Resources:
Watch Public Trust (2020) on YouTube
Public Trust Official Webpage
ALEC - American Legislative Exchange Council
The Darkness at the heart of Malheur, article by Hal Herring
5B Film
Class Action Park: America's Most Dangerous Amusement Park
Alamo Pictures
Connect with David Byars:
Connect with Jeremy Rubingh:
More from Factual America
Our Great National Parks
15 Best Documentaries That Expose The Truth
11 Important Documentaries About Native Americans
11 Insightful Documentaries About Donald Trump
Low-Budget Documentary Filmmaking Gear
12 World Renowned Documentary Festivals
Georgia Film Industry Tax Incentives: A Comprehensive Overview
Texas Film Industry Tax Incentives: A Comprehensive Overview
New York Film Industry Tax Incentives: A Comprehensive Guide for Filmmakers
California Film Industry Tax Incentives: Key Benefits and Opportunities
Best Documentaries About Climbing: Unmissable Films for Adventure Enthusiasts
How to Pitch a Documentary to Amazon
15 Best US States for Film Production Tax Breaks: A Comprehensive Guide
Best Documentaries About Dogs: Unleashing Canine Stories and History
20 Important Documentaries about HIV/AIDS
Best Documentaries about British History: Exploring the Past in Depth
Transcript for Factual America Episode 32 - Public Trust: The Urgency to Protect US Public Lands
David Byars 0:00
Hello, everyone, my name is David Byars. I am the director of Public Trust. Here in Ohio, California, the traditional homelands of the Chumash people. And I'm very excited to be here with you all to discuss the feature film Public Trust.
Jeremy Rubingh 0:15
Yeah. Hi, everyone. I'm Jeremy Rubingh. I'm the producer of Public Trust. And I'm coming to you from my little sailboat that I live on here in Puget Sound in Seattle. And we're on the ancestral homelands of the Duwamish and the Coastal Salish here, and really excited to dig into this film and tell you more about it.
Speaker 1 0:40
We are spiritually and culturally connected to this land.
Speaker 2 0:45
It's like the hair on your head, you pull one hair, you're not gonna miss it.
Speaker 3 0:52
In every generation, you will always face somebody who represents greed.
Speaker 4 0:57
150 trillion dolars, in mineral value, locked up in federally controlled lands.
Speaker 5 1:06
If the case can't be made to protect this place, how can you expect to protect anything?
Speaker 6 1:10
People will say - Oh, the public land belongs to all the people. Belongs all the people, I'd like then to tell me which part is mine, because I want to sell.
Speaker 7 1:18
The preponderance of the evidence that I have discovered
Speaker 8 1:22
The mine is right for me.
Speaker 9 1:27
There's a enormous well-heeled movement, to take lands away from the American people.
Speaker 10 1:33
To make vast sums of money for somebody and change our country forever.
Speaker 11 1:40
Representatives of Utah have taken upon themselves to declare war upon us the Native American tribes.
Speaker 12 1:46
I drill in the cemetery if there was oil there.
Speaker 13 1:50
Our public land is not for sale and it's not going anywhere.
Speaker 14 1:53
Don Young does not represent the Gwichสผin or our voice.
Speaker 15 1:56
I represent Alaska.
Speaker 16 1:57
You might not know...
Speaker 17 2:00
The largest rollback of federal land protection in US history.
Speaker 1 2:05
...public land...
Speaker 17 2:07
These people are enemies. And we're gonna kick their asses. And we know what you're up to and we're coming for you.
Speaker 5 2:14
There's a lot more people waking up now. We're taking a stand and we're taking back our home. So, ready for the fight, because we're not gonna give up.
Speaker 8 2:26
This land that is ours together is a great land
Speaker 1 2:29
Enjoy new Kansas, a recreational...
Speaker 9 2:31
To preserve places like this, we must bring to our work a new spirit of respect and cooperation
Speaker 11 2:36
Without regard to party to protect them for all of us and for our children.
Unknown Speaker 2:48
But what's at stake, is this enormous, common wealth. The American system of public lands, and I don't say we have the right to it. That's not it. You have the right to whatever you're willing to fight for.
Intro 3:10
That is the trailer for the documentary Public Trust. And this is Factual America. Factual America is produced by Alamo pictures, a production company specializing in documentaries, television, and shorts about the USA for an international audience. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood, and every week we look at America through the lens of documentary filmmaking by interviewing filmmakers and experts on the American experience. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Alamo pictures to be the first to hear about new productions, find out where you can see our films and to connect with our team.
Matthew 3:55
America is a land of natural beauty and natural resources. Unfortunately, these two often come into conflict. Never was this more true when it comes to America's 640 million acres of public lands. Filmmakers David Byars and Jeremy Rubingh document the fight to protect America's public lands for future generations in their film Public Trust. We caught up with David from his home in Ohio, California, and Jeremy aboard his sailboat in the Puget Sound. David Byars and Jeremy Rubingh. Welcome to Factual America. David, how are things?
David Byars 4:34
Oh, they're great. Good, good as can be and I appreciate you having us here.
Matthew 4:38
Hey, it's great to have you on. And Jeremy, how are things with you on your sailboat?
Jeremy Rubingh 4:44
You know, things are great here. It's a typical gray day in Seattle.
Matthew 4:49
Well, David, you're the director and Jeremy you're the producer of Public Trust, which Ben Kenigsberg of the New York Times said, quote from his review, "Federal land ownership isn't a topic that leaps off the page in a news article, but โPublic Trust,โ a documentary that shows viewers the scenic beauty of those lands, doesn't have the same problem" Multiple laurels, including Audience Choice Awards, I've noticed, by the time this airs, I'm sure you'll be on a million views on YouTube. Rave reviews, I haven't seen a bad one yet. 100% on Rotten Tomatoes. So thanks so much for coming on to the podcast. So how are things? I mean, is this been as successful as you'd hoped?
David Byars 5:39
Oh, yeah. You know, I think it has, you know, I think both of our experience in filmmaking have been through kind of the more traditional channels of the streaming services and stuff like that. But, like you mentioned, we actually hit, I woke up to text messages from the team saying we hit a million views on YouTube, which was super gratifying to see. And you know, you can't really argue with those kinds of numbers. And Patagonia has a lot of experience doing that. So it's been really exciting.
Matthew 6:05
I mean, that's amazing. Cuz that means you've had a few, like, 100,000 or so just in the last few hours. Because when I checked morning my time it was still 900 something thousand, you know.
David Byars 6:15
Yeah, I don't know what happened. Maybe it's bots or something. But I'll take the clicks.
Matthew 6:23
We'll take them too. So David, for those, for our listeners out there who may not have had a chance to see the film yet, maybe give us a little synopsis of what Public Trust is all about. If I haven't said this already, it's on YouTube. So no excuses. You don't have to be subscribed to a streaming service. You just Google it and you can find it. But tell us a little bit about Public Trust.
David Byars 6:52
Yeah, and aside that, watch it on a big TV with a really good audio. We've put a lot of work into this, people. Figure it out. This is the 21st century. YouTube, on the big screen, 55 inches, surround sound. Let's do it. Okay. So, you know, it was really interesting, when Jeremy and I, kind of conceived of this thing, there were two things that we wanted to accomplish. And those have actually survived, you know, the two and a half years it took to make this film. Which was a) to be a love letter to public lands, but also be an expose and not pull any punches in terms of you're talking about what's happening and speaking truth to power. And those have both survived, again, that two and a half years of filmmaking, unlike many of our concepts do, just in general in terms of documentary filmmaking. But what we essentially do with the film is we provide a rudimentary understanding of what public lands are. We follow Hal Herring on his journey to discover what's actually going on with the public lands, what they mean to Americans, what are the threats to public lands. And, like that New York Times view said, it's not something that exactly leaps off the screen, because a lot of this stuff happens in, you know, courtrooms and boardrooms, and, you know, closed negotiating sessions outside of the view of the American people. And while this is all publicly available, it's not all put together in such a way that, you know, you could spend a lifetime trying to digest all of this information. So what we wanted to do was, you know, provide an inkling into what public lands are, what they mean to Americans, what the threats are, and what's going on right now, in terms of public lands.
Matthew 8:33
I think you raised some good points. I mean, as an American who's, I mean, I'm living in the UK and have for a while. Maybe this is cutting to the chase. But I ended up being quite pissed off after I watched this, if I have to be just upfront with you. It's one of these things where I felt like why don't I know this stuff's going on. I felt like I used to know about a lot of this kind of stuff. And then, I don't know, our attention, my attention's been distracted. I'm not sure. But maybe we can talk a little bit more about, we don't need to talk about my lack of attention, but maybe for those listeners, most of our listeners are in the US, but good many aren't. So US public lands. I mean, it's about, what, 640 million acres that we're talking about? Is that right, David?
David Byars 9:22
Yeah, exactly. 640 million acres and you really can't be blamed for like, not having a holistic concept of public lands in your mind. First of all, it's kind of a tricky concept to pin down, like what are public lands. It's not, you know, the Grand Teton National Park or Yellowstone. It's also ports and forts. It's also Fish and Wildlife Services, Bureau of Land Management land. It's one and different things, and it's all managed under various agencies. And it's confusing. And if you haven't been, kind of, keeping up with the threads to those things, that's very much by design to this people who would threaten these things. They're counting on your ignorance. They're counting on it being complex. They're counting on short attention spans in these days of like, ever evolving and ever rotating outrages, to not be able to keep your eye on the ball with this one. And, you know, that's what we're trying to overcome with this film, is just cut through that noise and have a moment for public lands.
Matthew 10:25
We actually have a clip we're gonna play right now, which I think kind of gives a good sort of intro to people, especially those who aren't, or Americans or don't have knowledge about what public lands are about. And it's Hal Herring who, as we've already, he's already gotten a mention. I'm sure he's going to get a few more. But talks about how this is sort of a, at least initially, a very uniquely American, hopefully more than experiment. And sort of the struggle that we face.
Speaker 4 10:57
The public lands are really a uniquely American experiment. Every one of us, in every state, in every county has used the public lands. A ball field, a park, a trail, biking, fishing and hunting, climbing and skiing and all the things we do on public lands. The American public lands comprise about 640 million acres owned by the American people and managed in trust by the federal government. A hodgepodge of federal agencies are tasked with managing the public lands for multiple needs, which means recreation, conservation, climate change, resilience. On the other side of the land, you have oil and gas development, blogging, grazing and mininig. The problem is that there's a very precarious balance to strike between industry and the common good. Because of the great wealth in our public lands, that balance is never going to be fixed. It's always going to be in flux. It's like, like having all this, it's like, totally unique in the world. Why did I think that people weren't targeting this, given that it was probably the greatest cash cow left on the planet, you know?
Matthew 12:22
David, that was, I think that sets the scene quite well. What I found interesting, it reminded me, because I'm of a certain age, growing up as a small kid in the 70s and into the 80s. But 60s and 70s were sort of a high point, glory days, it seems almost for, at least in terms of sort of bipartisan support and consensus. Even Nixon was on board. He set up the EPA, Environmental Protection Agency. Is that a fair point to be made?
David Byars 12:59
Yeah, I think, you know, it's obviously infinitely nuanced, as is everything. But like, you know, there was a point in time where politicians were competing to be seen as good on conservation. You know, the American people saw these commons, the clean air, the clean water as something that we all wanted. And so we demanded from our politicians that they protect them for us against any kind of private interest that would take them for their own profit off them and leave us with the cleanup. You know, over the years, it's become much more of a partisan football, in terms of right versus left, and it really shouldn't be. It's just become part of these kind of cultural wars that we find ourselves immersed in, where everything is politicized. And, you know, the very existence of clean water is seen as an affront to some sort of freedom that people are upholding as one of their central ideas.
Matthew 13:52
It just reminds me, as a kid, I remember asking my dad what's the difference between a conservationist and a conservative. I think, because you use the term conservation, it was a very 70s term, actually. 70s-80s, it's not one you hear very often anymore. But Jeremy, when did this all start going wrong? Or I mean, as you say, I agree. It's very nuanced. I mean, there are some things in 60s and 70s we wouldn't want to repeat, but...
Jeremy Rubingh 14:17
There's a clear moment. You know, obviously, we highlight different moments in the film. And I think the first place you always start is an acknowledging where these public lands came in the first place. And you'd be remiss not to acknowledge that these are native lands, and they were taken from the people of this continent, and often in really horrible ways. But nonetheless, here we are and it is kind of amazing that we still have untouched landscapes or, you know, untouched landscapes but healthy landscapes and places for people to visit like this. But I think there's a moment you could define, probably towards the end of the Nixon Administration, early Reagan Administration. There's this statement that environmentalists are like watermelons, they're green on the outside and red on the inside. Meaning, you know, they're into conservation, but really in the middle, they're just communists. And that was a bad word. And I think it was very intentionally painted that way, with James Watt in the Department of Interior. And during the Reagan administration, as we highlighted very intentionally in the film with the sagebrush rebellion. It's really important historical moment where sort of the government was made to be the bad guy here, even though the government represents us, the people and is supposed to reflect our common interest in these lands. And I think it really set up these these two didactic camps that diverge from there. And these culture wars kind of fan from that point.
Matthew 15:56
Speaking of culture wars, I mean, when you're my age, the thing you remember James Watt for, besides the fact that everyone seemed to be up in arms when he got appointed, was that I think the thing that really drove him out of DC was, and the man's still alive, actually, is he hated the Beach Boys. Yeah, he tried to get the Beach Boys banned from Fourth of July, you know, and so, the President, even Nancy and Ron said, no, no, we like the Beach Boys. Like, what are you doing? Yeah, very interesting individual. Said with the interesting in inverted commas, sort of Southern way of saying Interesting, interesting, but yeah...
David Byars 16:38
Bless his heart.
Matthew 16:39
Yeah. bless his heart. Exactly.
Jeremy Rubingh 16:42
And Terry Tempest Williams, the author who appears in our film, actually makes the statement that they actually made it be sort of a religious aid, if you will, at that point, they kind of took on this air of religious dogma.
Matthew 16:57
Well, I mean, it's absolutely crazy, but had a bit of element of manifest destiny to it, which kind of gets us back to this point you were making, which I hadn't actually raised. But the very important point about how these are all Native American lands to begin with, obviously. And also, for those who aren't familiar, almost all this is in the US, what is it about, 13 states in the western part of the United States, where almost the vast majority of these lands are. If we were to show, Jeremy was to show us his map, I'm not asking you to, but you can, there would be only little tiny dots, you know, on the sort of East Coast, sort of Midwest areas and stuff. But it looks like it almost fills up the entire western part of the United States.
Jeremy Rubingh 17:43
Yeah, the public lands map certainly appears that way. However, you know, it is important to note that there are wildlife refuges in every state, there are local and state parks in every state and county. And this is a public lands concept as well. But yeah, very much so the western states are the largest amount of our public land system.
Matthew 18:08
So I mean, apart fueling this development, flaming the culture wars, if you will, I guess is a group I had never heard of, called the, I tried to get to find them on their acronym, but that doesn't work. So you have to type in American Legislative Exchange Council, just rolls off the tongue. David, maybe you can tell us a little bit about this group of individuals?
David Byars 18:39
Sure. So ALEC is a huge dark money organization that basically puts out model legislation to, you know, politicians they see as friendly and then is able to funnel money to those legislators. Well, I think John Oliver did a really good segment on it, if anyone wants to go look that up. It's...
Matthew 19:00
We'll put that in, we'll put a link to that in the show notes, actually, we can do that.
David Byars 19:05
But I mean it's a huge dark money thing. And it's scary and it's frightening. I mean, like some of these legislators forget to take the ALEC letterhead off of this model legislation before they actually introduce it. I mean, it would be really funny if it wasn't so like infuriating. I mean, it is funny, but it's also like, just because of the brazen ineptitude involved there. But also, you know, it has very real consequences for us, which is super unfortunate.
Matthew 19:35
You know, I used to, I agree. I would usually say something like, it's not funny, but I'm laughing and. You know the guys from the Class Action Park on, I don't know if you've seen that one.
David Byars 19:44
I hadn't. My neighbors are raving about that movie.
Matthew 19:47
You got to see it. And, you know, shameless pitch here. But the thing is, as he said, well, laughter is what you do when you can't do anything else. You know, if you can't cry, you can't speak, you know, it's just the human reaction. Because there's so many elements of that film where you're just like, that is just absolutely crazy horrible, but you just find yourself bursting out laughing. But yeah, I mean, I think you've got some really good examples in the film. We won't go into those details, people should watch the film. But, I think, you know, legislation that people thought they had agreed a week later being changed, just as it's being voted on the House of Senate floor and whole passages from ALEC model legislation being snuck in. And not even intending to try to legislate it, it's really done as a, I think one of you're talking heads describes as a poison pill in that instance. But Jeremy, what I sense, just sense, I think it's pretty obvious. I think you're very upfront about this in the film, but something seems to have changed, even taken a quite a turn for the worse since 2016. Is that fair to say?
Jeremy Rubingh 21:08
Without doubt, I mean, and from a purely factual standpoint, not from any sort of political standpoint, the Trump administration has been the absolute worst in our nation's history in terms of removing protections for public lands. I mean, 34 million acres have had protections removed, and that was since May. So it's probably more since than, frankly. But really, the pivotal moment in the day we started shooting this film was when Donald Trump landed in Salt Lake City, Utah to attempt to resend the Bears Ears National Monument. And in our country that's unprecedented. It's the Antiquities Act of 1906. Nobody's ever attempted to remove another president's efforts to protect the place. And frankly, it probably won't stand up in subsequent legal challenges, though, here we are three years later, still trying to filter through that. But yeah, I mean, the amount of public lands that were opened at that point to leasing, even without major companies really asking for it. The rollbacks of all kinds of rules and legislation that were intended to protect people's health and business, you know, industry that didn't necessarily have a problem with, they just not in the business of making those rules. They're in the business of making money. So it's been really interesting. A lot of it has been done very sloppily, if that's a word. So we're seeing legal challenges right now. And we're seeing the Trump administration actually not being able to fulfill a lot of these promises that they made, whether it's to industry or to friends. But absolutely, we're in an unprecedented time. I think a lot of people think that in our country, a lot of democratic institutions are hanging by a thread. And certainly when it comes to public lands, and losing them to corporate interests, I think it's in a lot of people's minds, this would be a final coup of plutocracy claiming victory. Right?
Matthew 23:22
I think it's, as you say, I mean, there's always, there always will be, and that's even in that clip that we have with Hal. There's always going to be this struggle. Because the public lands also are sitting on some pretty significant in some areas, natural resources that we are still using in terms of fossil fuels and minerals and these sort of things. But it just seems, as you've picked in your film, it's just, you know, no news here. Corporate extractive industries want to make money, you know. But it just seems, I think it's in their title - public trust, the government is supposed to be managing the lands, in our interests. And it just seems brazen, what's happened in the last few years, and people are not even bothering to really hide it. It's just, you know, in some ways you can say it's a good thing, I guess that at least they're out front about it. But it is absolutely amazing, as you say, in the Antiquities Act 1906, I mean, that's what Teddy Roosevelt used to actually get this whole project started, which I think you document quite well. This is moving very quickly. It may be a little bit early, but I'm gonna give our listeners a slight break. We might have a clip to play for them while they're whatever, running to the bathroom, making a cup of coffee or tea or something, but we'll be back shortly after that.
Factual America midroll 25:01
You're listening to Factual America, subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter at Alamo pictures to keep up to date with new releases for upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
Speaker 1 25:22
When I'm out there on the landscape, my relatives, my ancestors, they're here. I feel it in my body, feel it in my mind and my spirit. And they're always with me.
Speaker 2 25:44
You wanted to see the uranium mine? Correct?
Speaker 3 25:47
Yeah.
Speaker 2 25:50
Uranium in general in this area has been pretty controversial.
Speaker 3 25:54
That's definitely what we've been here.
Speaker 2 25:58
The mine is right in front of me.
Speaker 3 25:59
Gotcha.
Speaker 4 26:03
Before these were public lands, they were native lands. And I think it's really important to remember that. And public lands have many meanings to many people. But right now, the understory of Bears Ears is uranium. The understory of Bears Ears, is oil and gas.
Speaker 5 26:25
We've had a long legacy of oil, gas and uranium extraction in these areas, dried up springs and contaminated water. You can just see like how the landscape is just decimated and scarred. It's really just been take, take, take and run.
Matthew 26:52
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with David Byars and Jeremy Rubingh, director and producer of Public Trust on YouTube brought to you by Patagonia. We've already quoted Ben Kenigsberg, he describes in his review - "the documentary is conventionally structured and sometimes placid". I would actually disagree with that but anyway, "but it has an alarming message. Is it possible that even the Grand Canyon may not be safe?" David? Is the Grand Canyon safe?
David Byars 27:26
Well, my sometimes placid answer would be no. (laughter) I thought that was hilarious. A quote from that, I was like that's going on the DVD jacket. Whatever, my wife has just taken that run with it. Trust me.
Matthew 27:42
Is it T-shirts now?
David Byars 27:44
Yeah, exactly. That's placid. A great idea. (laughter)
So yeah, long story short, you know, it seems like a bit of hyperbole to say the Grand Canyon is under threat. But there's actually very real tangible, actual threats to the Grand Canyon right now. And I'm going to have Jeremy talk about that in a second. But, you know, it's like houses in the film, wherever there's a resource and it belongs to the public, there is going to be someone who's going to lean on the people who control that resource. And in this case, the government, to get that resource for themselves, for profit. To become more wealthy. And that's just kind of our crony capitalists, like, you know, captured government, kind of model that we're existing under right now. And it's really unfortunate. And that's not the way it should be. But, you know, to show that that's not at all even a bit of hyperbole. Jeremy, are you up to date on this stuff that is going on in the Grand Canyon right now?
Jeremy Rubingh 28:45
Well, yeah, I'm a little behind, but there absolutely are uranium interests in the Grand Canyon. And there has been mining, very close to the park boundaries. And there's been attempts to change those boundaries, in fact. And there's even been pollution, water and ground pollution, from some of that uranium mining in the park itself, in the Colorado River. So it is not hyperbole, in fact, there's some groups like the Grand Canyon trust, is actually fighting that battle right now in Flagstaff, Arizona, there's a lot of buzz. There's also some other development issues with folks who want to build some, some really big like access, like gondolas, and things like that.
David Byars 29:34
Just the landification of the Grand Canyon in other words.
Jeremy Rubingh 29:38
Yeah, or the utter ruin. However you look, conventionally structured.
Matthew 29:44
But isn't this, I mean, most of us must be thinking, well, surely the Grand Canyon will never get touched. And surely, you know, Yosemite will never get touched. And I guess that's probably this complacency that many of us have.
Jeremy Rubingh 29:58
Well, to some extent, those really iconic places, won't, like the core of them won't, but therein lies the problem, right? This is a postage stamp of something that's a much bigger landscape. And it needs support larger than just a handful of acres of rock and ice, they call it, when you just like protect a little mountain, but there's all the habitat around it. There's the water that comes into the watershed into the Grand Canyon. It's a whole system and it's all public lands. And to think of it as just like, one little spot on the map that we do align around and that political boundary, therefore protects it. It's not enough.
Matthew 30:39
I think that's a good point. I just want to switch gears a little bit here and talk about the project because I think this is very interesting. A lot of elements to it are very interesting. So I mean, whose idea was this project? I think you mentioned at the beginning that you guys had this idea. So is that when you want to take David or should Jeremy go for it?
David Byars 31:05
Sure. So we, kind of, so I made No Man's Land, which was about the Bundy occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon. And that kind of like touched upon public lands conflicts, and it was kind of a smaller conflict. It was almost a bit of a red herring in terms of this larger conflict. So through that, I kind of became aware of this larger kind of paradigm of public lands. And like, these are the threats against them. And it was during the actual festival run of that, that I met Jeremy. And I was, you know, I thought it would be impossible to make a film about public lands. Because it's such a huge topic, you know, 640 million acres. And that's just the physical aspect of it. What does it mean, in terms of history? What does it mean, in terms of, you know, what it means to be an American? There's so many like philosophical and historical rabbit holes you could go down. Not to mention, like, the things that we want to talk about that are actually happening right now. So I just thought it was this old thing that was too much of a pipe dream. And, you know, enter Jeremy Rubingh, who spent his entire life growing up on public lands immersed in this topic. Not only in his family life as a kid, but also, you know, as he entered into his career. And then so I met Jeremy, and then Jeremy, I'm gonna let you take the story from there.
Jeremy Rubingh 32:27
I think you discredit your experience, too. I think David's backstory is really, the real interesting one here. Because you have somebody who doesn't have a huge relationship with public lands in Georgia, who moves to Colorado, and is kind of mind blown at how you can just go camp on national forests anywhere you want. And it's sort of like, all there for all of us. And so to me, that was really compelling to hear, his backstory. But yeah, we essentially started brainstorming, and we put together this like two page pitch document. We brought it to Patagonia who coincidentally wanted to make a public lands film, and a really good friend, Ben Knight, and an incredible filmmaker, kind of connected us. And Patagonia liked it. And Dave and I looked at each other like, Oh, dear God, we now have to make this film. I mean, like, you know, like David said, it is almost impossible. In fact, I would argue that it is impossible. There's just too many directions you could go. This is just our best effort at failure. And I think it is resonating because we did focus on those Americans who this affects and are living through these battles.
Matthew 33:43
A couple points. David said, Jeremy, you grew up on public lands. So could you say a little something about that? It was not something I was aware of.
Jeremy Rubingh 33:52
Yeah, not actually squatting on public lands. (laughter) But no, I grew up in Colorado, with parents who are incredibly outdoors oriented. So in my more adult career, I have worked in conservation for several years, and for different think tanks. And so it goes.
Matthew 34:13
And David, the other side of this is Patagonia's involvement, which I find very interesting. Maybe tell everyone who Patagonia is, and sort of what it stands for, and why they, and how you all got involved on this project?
David Byars 34:31
Sure. So you know, Patagonia at its most basic is a clothing retailer. But what they've kind of established themselves as, since their inception, is a company that's really willing to like buck the trends and kind of stick with their principles, the founding principles. Which is, you know, essentially trying to say, I think their mission statement is now we're in the business of saving our home planet. Like that's a pretty bold statement from a clothing retailer. And so to that end, they've used this kind of power that they've accumulated by making really good gear, and really respected gear, and kind of leverage that into being able to speak truth to power whatever they want. And they've kind of become bulletproof because of it. And that's something that you don't see in a lot of companies who are kind of driven more by, like, what they see is focus groups, public opinion and stuff like that. Patagonia really kind of just leads the way on that. And so there's no other company that would have given us the funds to make this movie up front. They're like, great, this is what we want to do, go for it. And did not tried to, like hedge on the back end, or kind of pull their punches at all, that's just not them. And I think that that's, it's an incredible position to be in. To be able to, like sell clothes, make money. And then, you know, kind of have the totality of that company, immersed in that ethos, and it doesn't damage you and it only makes you stronger. Like it's just to me, it's just such a lesson that, you know, stick with your principles and be loud about them. And don't hedge and don't try to just go with the flow and you'll have success, you know. That's the children's book story, version of the story.
Matthew 36:20
Well, I think Yvon Chouinard is a bit of a children's book character in some ways. But, Jeremy, I mean, you're the producer on this. So what's it like working with them? Is it unlimited budget? How involved do they get? Do they crunch the numbers and tell you, you know, more drone shots? I mean, how does that work?
Jeremy Rubingh 36:42
You know, they're incredible to work with. We were given really, artistic freedom that was important, and allowed us to make the film that we made. I mean, when you actually look at the film that we made, we didn't make a film about recreation, or outdoor recreation, honestly. Like we really didn't. And that would have been the really easy way to go with a topic like this. But it wasn't getting at the core of what these lands are to us. And I think it does them a huge credit to show that they didn't really flex on us about that. There are moments where they absolutely were interested in showing that side of the story, because it is a side of the story. But, you know, I think the budget that we got was the one that we needed to make this film, frankly, and it wasn't like there was, nobody's getting rich off of this project. But yeah, I think there was a really healthy tension, and their filmmaking team is talented folks. And their interest was in allowing us to make the film that we said we were gonna make. And so, you know, ultimately, I think David said it really well. But you look at this company's origins, I have the original Patagonia catalog, it was Chouinard equipment that my dad had when you like would fill in the type of climbing you want and mail it in. And he gave that to me a couple years ago, when I started working on this project. And you read through the catalog and Yvon Chouinard is describing climbing ethics and not wanting to pound in pitons and bolts everywhere in rock ground. It's been since its origins, and it continues today. And you know, we're not shills for brands or anything like that. But, I think it does say a lot about their independence and the fact that they let a couple of bums like us take on this topic.
Matthew 38:33
Don't be so harsh on yourself. Do you think Jeremy, is this a bit of a, not of a trend, but I'm aware of other films that are very different topics, very different companies even. We had 5B that came out in the last year or two that was about AIDS and the history of the AIDS epidemic in San Francisco, and that was Johnson & Johnson who was behind that. I mean, is this something you see, it is a bit of a tangent, but is this something you see increasingly happening?
Jeremy Rubingh 39:07
Yeah, you know, I think, as filmmakers, it's something we want to say yes, we see this happening. To have a budget when you start a project is a incredible thing. But yeah, I think, when it comes to the types of folks who can actually fund a large project like this, it is often like the founders passions. And I think that's what's happening. We're seeing film become this incredible tool, especially during pandemic times. We can reach these audiences. I think, hopefully people are learning that funding these kinds of projects, elevates their causes and creates impact. That's the ultimate goal.
Matthew 39:49
David, what's it like having Robert Redford as an executive producer?
David Byars 39:54
Oh, you know, he comes over, he gives me foot rubs in the morning. We have coffee together. (laughter)
Matthew 39:59
Does he babysit the kids?
David Byars 40:01
Babysits the kids, you know, plays with my Chihuahua. (laughter) It was great. You know, it's like any kind of, he's a very high level executive producer. And his role was helping us shape the narrative, especially as we kind of entered into our final cut stage, many of the insight that his years of being in film has given him. But also to kind of create a signal boost for us, as we were going forward with this. And lending his name and reputation to this film, as we're trying to put it out there into the world, as something that people should watch. Because at the end of the day, you know, it's about getting eyeballs on the film. And I think he helped a ton in terms of not only making the film a better film, but also amplifying the message of the film and getting eyeballs on it.
Matthew 40:47
And Jeremy, was this always going to go on YouTube? Or was there some discussion about the best way of getting this out, in front of an audience?
Jeremy Rubingh 40:56
Yeah, there was a lot of different discussion about the distribution. We were lucky enough to have our film festival premiere in person. And I think it was like the last film festival that ever happened, that wasn't virtual. And then quickly, the discussion shifted. And I think it was important to get as many eyeballs as possible on the film. And early on, the folks at Patagonia had the foresight, they had this concept developed on a couple other projects, with like, Artificial, and some others that they had done, and they had a lot of success. And I think we're at 1,020,000 views as of like, right before we started this podcast interview, in just a week and a half. And so I can't really argue with that as a really good tactic. I think there are, we're looking at other options, because there's people who, you know, views, theater and things like that, or view film on different platforms. So we're talking about putting it up in different places like Amazon Prime, things like that. But from the beginning, I think that was a goal, to make sure that it was on demand and free.
Matthew 42:07
Okay. And that's, I think that speaks volumes, just the numbers you've had in a week and a half. Back to the film, because I think there's some great, just talk a little bit about the storytelling. You've got some amazing human characters on here. So David, may we talk a little about Hal Herring. You know, we both drawn a paycheck from The Economist and we both host podcasts. And unfortunately for him, he's about as, I think loquacious as I am, I think. But how did you come across Hal and how did he become the focus, A focus, I should say?
David Byars 42:50
Sure. So, back when I was making No Man's Land, Hal had also gone out to the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, to see what was going on out there. And he wrote this article on High Country news called The Darkness at the Heart of the Malheur. And if you want to see a really amazing piece of journalism, that kind of pierces the heart of a very simple seeming incident that just reveals infinite complexity about the American zeitgeist, I recommend going and googling that and finding it because it is so good. And so, he wrote that, I read it. And then my editor, David Asset and the story consultant, Atlanta Wilson were like, Hey, you need to go, you need to go interview this guy. And I was like, okay. And so I went interviewed him for No Man's Land, he became kind of a subtle voice in that, that really got at the heart of what was happening there. And then, when we started making this film, I knew he was going to kind of be a mentor in terms of shaping our thinking and stuff like that, but I wasn't really thinking of him as a character in the film. But as we chose our three geographies and our characters to connect, to kind of lead us through those geographies, it became obvious that we needed a way to connect all this stuff. And rather than going the kind of voice of God narrator thing, we wanted to have someone who's kind of living this thing. And the answer was right there in Hal Herring, but I was very resistant to using him as I had relied on upon his loquaciousness, as you say, in No Man's Land. But then, actually, all credit to Jeremy and also our cinematographer, Drew Xanthopoulos, who prevailed upon me to just say, screw it, this is the guy, this is the guy who's been living it. He grew up like obsessed with public lands. And he's also really frickin fun to hang out with. He's a good friend of ours, we like to go and like sleep on his floor in his house and ski and play with his dogs, like, it's a good times. So, you know, there was that as well.
Matthew 44:53
Yeah, I mean, the film, the scenery you show, these people like Hal, does make you want to rethink some decisions you might have, in your life about where you've ended up living and how your kids are growing up. But then there's some, there's a host of other, a lot of people go, a decent number people go on camera, but I think we'd be remiss if we didn't mentioned, Bernadette Demientieff. It's one of the most graceful and eloquent people I've seen, I think, in a long time.
Jeremy Rubingh 45:30
Yeah, she is powerful. I was actually just on a phone call with Bernadette yesterday, we check in a lot. I think early on, it was obvious to us that she had to be the voice for the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. I mean, I had never met anybody quite like that before, who, without any ego, was purely invested in this massive cause, just for her people and her grandchildren. And, you know, like amend a lot of really, lots of difficulties, there's forces that try to tear her down on a daily basis, frankly. And she just keeps marching forward. This is what she's here for, is to protect this place. And her story was so compelling and her friendship was, it just became really obvious that she was the voice for this place, and continues to be so in her own advocacy and work.
Matthew 46:28
And then we've also got people like Angelo Baca, Native American filmmaker who's associated with Bears Ears, and also Spencer Shaver, activist involved with the Boundary Waters. I think you've just said, I think you said it very well. Since this, obviously, is a conventionally structured doc.
David Byars 46:50
Sometimes placid.
Matthew 46:51
Yes, sometimes placid. That you had to find voices for the main characters, which really are Alaska National Wildlife Refuge, Bears Ears and Boundary Waters? Is that probably a fair way of putting it?
David Byars 47:09
Yeah, I think you're the first person to say that, but I think that's absolutely accurate. You know, there's always. Yeah, there you go.
Jeremy Rubingh 47:16
We'll put that little asterisk whenever I say that from now on.
Matthew 47:19
Yeah, exactly. Trademark.
David Byars 47:23
Yeah, I think, you know, it's a big trope in like, the documentary film where they say the land is the character and stuff like that. But this is, you know, this is a story about land, but we have to translate this kind of abstraction to something that people can understand. And I think that conduits of using characters who are living on these lands and who'd care deeply about them, and can embody the spirit of those places, it really, it just helps us to translate what this means to our audience.
Matthew 47:51
And how do you film this land so that, as you say, we have to see this on a 55 inch TV and surround sound or whatever the latest stuff is, you can see how behind I am. But how do you film this so that these places live up to their actual natural beauty? I mean, because I think you've, there's some lovely cinematography in this film.
David Byars 48:16
You just hit that red button, you know, keep rolling. It's hard. You know, it's so hard. And I think, you know, as Jeremy mentioned earlier, we're trying to evoke these places where we can't fully encapsulate or show you what these places are. You can't see on a 55 inch screen or a 100 foot screen, what it's like to, you know, wake up in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, or what it's like to go paddling on the Boundary Waters and like, catch walleye on the fishing line, eat it that evening, you know. And you can't know what it's like to see and feel the ancient history on the land in Bears Ears. You know, when you see the petroglyphs and the cliff dwellings of people that lived there tens of thousands of years ago. You can't, you can't do that. So we just try to show as many beautiful parts of it as we can. But I think it's also through telling it through the story of the people and try to evoke that history and evoke this kind of philosophical context of what these places mean to us as human beings, much less as Americans. It's really what we were going for.
Matthew 49:22
It's just dawned on me. This is just one big boondoggle. You got Patagonia to pay for you to go to the Alaska National Wildlife Refuge, and to go walleye fishing in Minnesota and do all kinds of things. It's a, what a dream job.
David Byars 49:35
This interview is over. (laughter) It's revealed, it's exactly what we were going for.
Matthew 49:47
Yeah. I've got a brother in law, actually works for Fish and Wildlife in Alaska and, I mean, he has, it's dawned on everyone, that he has the perfect job actually.
David Byars 50:02
I know. I know.
Jeremy Rubingh 50:04
Where is he in Alaska?
Matthew 50:06
He's based in Fairbanks.
Jeremy Rubingh 50:08
Okay.
Matthew 50:09
Yeah. But he goes out to, I mean, to be honest, I don't talk to him that often. He's my brother in law. But, you know, he's based in Fairbanks, and I've been out there once. It's amazing. I've never made it out to the national, you know, the ANWR, but it's just, it's one of these things, until you go, you can't really even appreciate, the natural beauty. So, you know, this is the cliche question of the podcast, but either one of you. I mean, what is, what would you say this film is really about? Because obviously it's about what's happening to public lands and things. But what is, you know, what's the real, sort of, I think you kind of alluded to different answers throughout this podcast about what's maybe this film is actually capturing?
David Byars 51:11
I'm gonna toss this one to Jeremy as cliches are his department.
Jeremy Rubingh 51:14
Oh man, classic, classic David Byars, right there.
David Byars 51:18
Just directing man, just directing.
Matthew 51:21
He is doing his job.
Jeremy Rubingh 51:22
Yeah, exactly. Just pointing us all in the right direction. I mean, look, to be perfectly honest and earnest, which is what I'm good at. This is, for us, this is about, you could have made this film, honestly, you could have made a very similar film about health care or all kinds of things. Or income inequality. It's one more really big story. And it's taking place across the landscape of this country. The haves and the have nots, in some ways, and a last real big cash cow on a taking. And without our engagement as citizens, it's something that we can all lose. And it was clear to us that we needed to highlight what this public land system is, and that there are threats to it. And I talked about it like this is public lands one on one. It's what this film is, it's just, it's the surface. And it's so much, so much bigger than what all the things we were actually able to touch on. But it really is this huge democratic American idea that you don't see really in many other countries around the world. And it's an opportunity for unity and healing and all kinds of things. It's opportunity for everybody to come together and protect something good for future generations. And that's what I've learned from my public lands. And I think that's what we're, we're trying to make this film about.
Matthew 52:58
Well, thank you for that. Because I think you've also sort of answered the next question, really, which is, I say it's explicitly political film. I mean that in the sense that at the end, it's very upfront, you make the statement at the end. I think the timing is obviously related to the election coming up. That there's an election, and the whole house of representatives is up for re-election. And I think this time around, what is it 35 senators, it's roughly a third of the Senate, it's up as it is every few years. But what do you ultimately hope to achieve with this film? It's probably beyond just maybe what happens on November 3? And is that sort of what you're getting to? Both of you can answer but it's public lands, one on one, and it's a stepping stone for us, all of us to get to know a little bit more about what's actually going on?
David Byars 53:57
Sure. You know, the politics has kind of become a dirty word, especially now in this polarized environment. But politics is simply the act of all of us coming together to decide what's best for all of us. To coordinate our efforts to try to make life better for everyone. And what we're trying to achieve with this film as well, we do play pretty heavily in that political sandbox. Our point is that public lands should be taken out of politics. This is something that, like and I mean partisan politics, when I say that. We should all come together and say, you know, this is something that we all care about. Because we do. It's the polling is there, it's overwhelming. Americans are in favor of protections, clean water, clean air, all these things. And this isn't something that we're going to compromise on. This isn't something that our politicians can promise to their campaign donors. This isn't something that people can, you know, formulate entire careers and think tanks and whatnot, trying to divest the American people of public lands. This is just a non starter. Like there's no money, there's no benefit in doing that to anybody. That's what we're trying - to take public lands out of the arena of partisan political football and put it into this place where it's sacrosanct. And it can't be touched. And we say no.
Matthew 55:10
And I think you've actually saying it much better, obviously, than I would have said it. Because one of the lessons I draw from this, one I draw from a few films we've had on recently, is sort of - I put it down as failed American politics. But I think it's more the legislative branch just needs to start doing its job. It seems like, and both parties have blood on their hands, don't get me wrong, that's for sure. But it just, I mean, in the film, you talked about the things that Obama administration did, to certainly put through the Bears Ears legislation or whatnot, legislation, the executive order, basically. But it shouldn't have, I mean, it would be a lot firmer, and okay, we've never had this happened before, with the president overruling something that was done under the Antiquities Act, to get into the details of all this, but it would be a lot firmer ground if Congress could just legislate.
David Byars 56:15
Just do it. Yeah.
Matthew 56:16
Just do it. And they can't seem to do it. And it's not just issue. And so everything gets left to the courts, which is why the courts get so politicized and why presidents have to do everything by executive order. I didn't mean this to be Policy 101. But I think it does seem to be something that is affecting so many issues in the country.
Jeremy Rubingh 56:38
And that's why I say like you could have made this film about health care, in a lot of ways, or take on any other issue. But look at the issues that have actually pierced that partisan politics narrative, and are no longer really up for debate. They exist out there. Marriage equality being a good example in this country, it's progressed incredibly. And there's a lot of issues like that, that politicians don't want to touch with a 10 foot pole. And protecting public lands, our argument is, probably needs to be one of those. But you know, the legislative branch has been captured. And there is blood on both parties hands. During the Obama administration, the expansion of fracking on public lands ballooned exponentially. And so. But it's important to note that currently the GOP as their party platform has it written in there that the transfer of public lands to the states and therefore private interests, is of like, utmost importance. It's still written in that platform.
Matthew 57:46
Yeah. Because they didn't actually come up with a new platform this time around. But, I think, if I recall correctly, actually, that reminds me, I think it's stuff explicitly written by Alec, isn't it? That's in that platform.
David Byars 58:03
Absolutely.
Matthew 58:05
As we come, believe it or not, we are coming to an end of our time together. I was just thinking, the film was, obviously it takes a while to make these films. And then you had, went to festivals, but you have some titles at the end. And I was just wondering, are you able to give some updates, because I think it would be interesting to know. So for instance, I think you said the government was about to expand drilling etc. in Bears Ears and Grand Staircase. Is that gone ahead?
David Byars 58:41
We toss this one to Jeremy, as I've stuck my head firmly into this.
Jeremy Rubingh 58:47
There's currently a lot of battles over those leasing arrangements. There's also, in Bears Ears, specifically, sort of burgeoning fights over uranium development. And there's some really interesting developments around that. We can get way into the weeds, but... There's a consistent threat. The real update on Bears Ears is that the court case to reinstate the national boundaries is progressing. And there's I think, conservation and other organizations, intertribal organizations are cautiously optimistic about upcoming results soon.
Matthew 59:26
Okay.
Jeremy Rubingh 59:26
I think another really, last week, the Boundary Waters, the House of Representatives subcommittee just passed a really exciting bill that would have a mineral withdraw for the area surrounding the Boundary Waters and protect that area. First that would have to make its way through the entire house and then the Senate, but it is moving. And then the big update on the Arctic National Wildlife Refuges. The Trump administration is trying to force through, move through lease sales by 2021, which is not really a reasonable timeframe for a lot of the impact statements that need to be done and have sort of been done. So that's being legally challenged. And currently, there's a big divestment campaign underway. And I think many of the major banks have said they will not fund projects that take place in the refuge, with the exception of Bank of America, is one that they're really still working on.
Matthew 1:00:27
Oh, gosh, I won't say anything. I've got, I may have to change my personal account.
Jeremy Rubingh 1:00:34
What credit card you have?
David Byars 1:00:36
Yeah, so stay tuned for Public Trust 2. It gets worse. (laughter)
Matthew 1:00:44
Well, that gets me to my next question. What's next for you guys, besides basking in the glow of your success?
David Byars 1:00:49
Oh, man. So, Jeremy and I are developing some projects together and individually. Jeremy has a really interesting project. These are putting together for a few years and has gotten some recent funding on that I'm excited about. Why don't you tell them about that, Jeremy? I think it's super cool.
Jeremy Rubingh 1:01:07
Oh, man. Yeah, it's a labor of love. But it's, I'm working with a Native American producer, a friend. And we shot a lot of footage around the Standing Rock issue. And in fact, with several of his canoe family, friends and family, we took these traditional dugouts from the Pacific Northwest, and followed the Missouri River to the side of the protests in the middle of the winter, in the middle of the protests. And so we're taking a look at the role of protests in America, but kind of through that lens of that experience. And here we are, that was the very beginning of the Trump administration, and here we are four years later. And so, it's a look at that. And we're really excited about it. But we have a ways to go with raising funds and things like that.
Matthew 1:01:54
Okay. But we'll just need to watch this space. And would you let us know when that's closer to fruition? I think that would be good. And then I guess the rest are sort of things, conversations you have, you're talking to people, but probably for the time being not anything else yet.
Jeremy Rubingh 1:02:15
Well, David's got an exciting project, he's doing again with Patagonia. Can you talk about that one?
David Byars 1:02:20
Yeah, I've got another one that I'm making. It's a short film about community energy in Europe. And I'm kind of describing this a lot like I described Public Trust. It's about, I would say, whenever people are like, what are you making right now? I'd say, Oh, it's a film about public lands, but trust me, it's more exciting than it sounds. That's what's going on with this one. It's about community energy, but trust me, it's more exciting than it sounds.
Matthew 1:02:44
Well, and may just second that. If someone told me there was a film about public trusts or public lands, yes, I think, I'm sure I wouldn't be able to sell it to my wife. Let's put it that way. I've watched this one on my own. But, despite maybe one comment of a reviewer who we've mentioned before, I think I never felt like it was placid in any places. And I think it's a very tight 1.30 or so that you've got there. And I think, it held my, it certainly held my attention. I thought it was very beautifully done and very insightful. And well worth anyone's minute, hour and a half of their time, to give this a watch, which you can do on YouTube and possibly other places. I think we're gonna have to call it a wrap. But it's been a joy having you on. Thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate that. And I know our listeners do. So thank you, David Byars and Jeremy Rubingh from Public Trust, which as we mentioned is on YouTube. Also want to give a shout out to This Is Distorted studios here in Leeds, England. And please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.
Factual America Outro 1:04:21
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo pictures specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the shownotes for more information about today's episode, our guests and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at Alamo pictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk