Streetlight Harmonies: The Lasting Legacy of Doo-Wop

In the late 1950s, doo-wop music took America by storm. And its legacy lasts to this day in the music of such recording artists as Bruno Mars and Meghan Trainor. 

Award-winning director and producer Brent Wilson is shining a light on this genre of pop music. Using original interviews with doo-wop recording artists, and those they influenced, Brent’s documentary Streetlight Harmonies perfectly captures the zeitgeist of the 50s and early 60s. 

Doo-wop originated with African-American teenagers on the street corners of urban America – places like New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore and Detroit. With the rise of vocal harmony singing, teenagers started recording music for themselves for the first time in history. 

However, these teenagers had to face up to racism, predatory producers and the pressures of being in the spotlight. Looking back on their lives, they reveal a love and passion for their music that inspires us to this day.

“I wanted it to feel fresh, I wanted it to feel present. My goal was it would be seen by people who don’t like doo-wop music.”  - Brent Wilson

Time Stamps:

02:29 - The emergence of doo-wop and Brent's aim of making doo-wop well-known again.
03:23 - Where Brent has been during the lockdown and what it’s been like for him.
04:22 - Where you can watch the documentary.
05:01 - What the film is about.
06:12 - Where the term ‘doo-wop’ came from.
07:21 - First clip showing the beginnings of doo-wop.
09:53 - The idea of singing on the street corner.
10:55 - The different places people used to sing.
11:59 - The origins of doo-wop.
13:31 - Second clip showing why people used to sing on the streets.
16:04 - What the motivation was for women singers.
18:07 - Other issues the film brings up, and how lots of children were duped.
22:22 - The issues of racism that many of these young artists had to face.
23:35 - Third clip showing the racism the performers encountered in the South.
26:53 - How some incredible songs were covered by whites, and butchered in the process.
28:53 - What the legacy of vocal harmony music is today.
31:05 - How Brent got involved with the film.
32:50 - The respect that doo-wop deserves.
37:36 - The difficulties involved with the production and release of the film.
42:25 - Brent’s documentary about Brian Wilson, and the Beach Boys.
48:36 - What makes doo-wop artists different to other modern artists. 

Resources:

Streetlight Harmonies (2020)
Pre-order Streetlight Harmonies Original Soundtrack 'Classic Black Vinyl'
Streetlight Harmonies on Facebook
Streetlight Harmonies on Instagram
Alamo Pictures

Connect with Brent Wilson:

LinkedIn

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Transcript for Factual America Episode 20 - Streetlight Harmonies: The Lasting Legacy of Doo-Wop

0:00
Hi, I'm Brent Wilson. I'm the director and co writer and producer of Streetlight Harmonies.

0:05
As long as there's teenage girls out there, I think vocal harmony groups will be around.

0:11
No matter where you went in 1956 there was a group Doo-Woppin'.

0:16
Harmony, harmony, harmony, no band, no nothing.

0:21
Street corner singing, getting that harmony to ring, usually standing under the streetlight.

0:26
Started sundown. It seems like there was a group under every street light.

0:31
You didn't need anything that you and your friends could go on the street corner and sing.

0:35
Nobody could afford to buy instruments so you had to imitate the instruments.

0:40
We paved the way for Rihanna, Beyonce, Destiny's Child.

0:48
The pay was horrible. We as artists, we were struggling.

0:52
Our parents didn't know anything about copyright. They didn't know about royalties.

0:57
The record companies knew that so they took advantage of it.

1:00
We sold 77 million records. Somebody got the money. It sure wasn't me.

1:06
Music has always had a way of being the great common denominator that brought people together.

1:12
This music moved the country to a place where, in the 60s, the civil rights movement was ready to happen.

1:20
Music has no color. This is about love. It's for the love of the music.

1:25
When the night has come. And the land is dark. And the moon is the only light we'll see.

1:48
That is the trailer for the documentary Streetlight Harmonies, and this is Factual America. Factual America is produced by Alamo pictures, a production company specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for an international audience. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood and every week we look at America through the lens of documentary filmmaking by interviewing filmmakers and experts on the American experience. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Alamo pictures to be the first to hear about new productions, to find out where you can see our films and to connect with our team.

2:30
In 1950s America, there emerged a new sound that soon swept the nation. Heard on the street corners of urban America, places like New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and Detroit. It originated with teenage African Americans and betrayed the innocence of the time. It came to be known as Doo-Wop. Award winning director and producer Brent Wilson is shining a light on this now largely forgotten genre of popular music, using original interviews with Doo-Wop recording artists and those they influenced. His documentary Streetlight Harmonies not only perfectly captures the Zeitgeist of the 1950s and early 60s, but shows how, for the first time, teenagers started recording music for themselves. Factual America recently caught up with Brent from his home in Redondo Beach, California. Brent Wilson, welcome to Factual America.

3:23
Thank you very much, Matthew. Appreciate it.

3:25
Where are you these days? And how are you doing?

3:28
I'm in Redondo Beach, which is Redondo Beach, California. Just a little south of LA. And we're hanging in there. Certainly interesting times. There are days you kind of feel like you're waiting for, you know, the locusts to fly over, you know, like with this is going to come to an end? I think it's my dog.

3:50
That's okay. We've had, we've had children make appearances. So dogs are certainly, I guess we're not supposed to, if you're an actor, you're not supposed to take the parts with dogs and children but still there we go.

4:01
Exactly. She is a little Frenchie and she is very precocious.

4:10
Like most dogs are like. Hey, so the film Streetlight Harmonies. Before we start discussing this film, where can people see it?

4:22
Sure it's on Video on Demand. So we're on Amazon Prime, we're on Apple, iTunes or on Google other video demands. But I don't believe we're in the UK or in Europe yet. So we're out actually looking for European distribution as we speak.

4:37
Okay, well, you know, maybe we can talk about that later. Off camera. Okay, for those who haven't seen the film, I mean, actually good number of our audience is in the United States and North America but obviously we have a global following. For those who haven't seen the film, and they've had the, they've had the trailer, so they have a little bit of an idea what this film is about, but maybe you can tell us what is the film about?

5:01
Sure. It's a documentary that traces the impact in the history of Doo-Wop music. And one of the first things we do is dispel the notion that there is a definition of Doo-Wop music. Right out of the top of the gate of the film, there really is no such thing as Doo-Wop music. It's truly vocal harmony music that began in the late 40s, really peaked in the late 50s, early 60s. So it didn't last very long. But what we discuss in the film, is that the legacy that it's felt, you know, through all the way through Motown, The Beach Boys up through today to you know, New Kids On The Block, NSYNC and all of the pop groups of the day, you know, through a K-pop. So, it's a very small window that had a really big impact, I think culturally, but not a very long while.

5:59
And as you said, I picked up on, when I watched this film, and I highly recommend it to those who do have access to it. Some people don't call it, there are various different names. But where does the term Doo-Wop come from? Do you know?

6:12
That's one of the things we kind of talked about. Nobody really is sure where the actual term come from. There's a couple different stories. There was a writer of the New York Times in the early 70s. And there was a revival, you know, with American Graffiti and Sha Na Na. There in the very early 70s, when America was in some really dark times - Vietnam, Watergate, and then and Doo-Wop music and 50s music in particular had a really strong comeback. And there was a New York Times writer who claims he coined the phrase Doo-Wop because of some of the sounds that the Italian groups were making in the background. There are a couple of songs that The Penguins did where you would hear the word Doo-Wop as part of the background. So, it's a bit of a myth as to where the actual term comes from.

6:58
Well, it may be a myth but there's certainly a reality that's there about the song, about the music and its cultural influence. And I think, I'd like to actually go right into a clip if you, if you don't mind. The first one is from the film. So for our listeners or those who are on YouTube, you can watch it. It's about the origins of Doo-Wop or whatever we want to call it. And it's about the origins of singing on street corners. Do you want to set that up for us, Brent?

7:33
Absolutely. This is, this is taken on very early in the film where we, we wanted to just try to establish where, how, how this all began and the innocence of it. I think one of the things that we try to tell with the film is that this really began very humbly and it really began as something, you know, from the streets from kids. Truly the first time that kids were making music for kids.

7:59
When Frankie Lymon and The Teenagers jumped over that wall, I think the next day, teenage groups popped up from coast to coast.

8:08
All of a sudden we realized that as a teenager, we can actually, you know, maybe make a record.

8:13
Frankie Lymon was about the same age I was. So, I said, well if he can do it. I can do it.

8:17
They caused the epidemic. There were groups in every school yard. They were all over and no matter where you went in 1956 during the summer, no matter what neighborhood, what project, you heard harmony every place you went.

8:32
(song playing)

8:43
We sing on street corners. If you were singing then you knew what I'm talking about.

8:49
Most of the time we would just get together and sing. Come on, I'll meet you at the corner. I see you walking up. They gotta be all good stop and start singing on the corner. They go (laughs).

8:59
You know long time before I got with The Drifters, I was with the crown, The Five Crowns. And we were just standing on the street corner of Eighth Avenue. It used to be The Cadillacs on one corner. It used to be The Five Crowns on one corner, The Harptones on another corner, you know, you'd light the fire in the garbage can, and you take a little nip of something and then you hit a little Doo-Wop song.

9:32
And this is when this whole thing called Doo-Wop developed in the inner city. And that to me is what Doo-Wop really is - it's a homegrown music.

9:42
That's an excellent introduction there into this musical genre. I mean, singing on street corners. I mean, if you did that today, people would think you're crazy, wouldn't they?

9:54
Absolutely. Yeah. And it's such a, such a beautiful image and when we were doing the interviews. I remember thinking to myself - I wonder if this is romanticized, you know, to the point where it's, you know, did this really happen? And as you saw in that clip and there's some other interview bites later, you know, with Charlie Thomas of The Drifters, who's truly one of the great originators and one of the great artists of Doo-Wop. The Drifters, in particular. And Charlie talks about how you know, we would be, you know, standing over, you know, a trash can and sipping some wine on this corner, and then another corner would be another group and another corner would be another group, and I just love the fact that that image was real and was true.

10:41
You get the feeling, you could have just walked through different parts of urban America, certainly in the northeast - New York, Philadelphia, places like this. And you would have just, who needed a radio or a transistor radio, if they even existed at that point. You just had music wherever you went, sounded like that.

10:56
Yeah, absolutely. And LaLa Brooks, who was also from Brooklyn area up there in New York, she talked about how they would sing on the stoops. So you know, every stoop would have a different group. And then, Little Anthony of Anthony and The Imperials talks about how actually the best place to sing was down on the subways, because it had the echo. So you know, you go into the subways, you know, you would hear these kids singing. I would imagine, it was probably a lot, you know, a lot of uptight adults that are upset hearing this crazy music. But I think, you know, it would be great to be able to relive those moments and see that again today. Because it really is, I think a part of, it is an image of inner city. It's an image of an innocent time. And it's, it's very, I think, uniquely American.

11:48
Yeah, I think that's a very good point. I mean, where did this come from? It didn't just happen in a vacuum did it so how the Doo-Wop or whatever you want to call it come about?

11:59
Sure. I think, you know, as we talked to a lot of our interviewees. We're really proud of how many we interviewed, we really wanted to capture just as many as we could, you know. We just wanted it to be an overwhelming amount sometimes because we wanted to have so many people telling their stories, and they would all kind of say the same thing. It was a repeated story, which was, you know, a lot of were coming out of gospel. They were, they would sing in church. And, you know, at that time in America, you know, you couldn't afford instruments, there was no music programs in schools, there was no money for instruments. So, you know, kids would just try to make the sounds of instruments. And, of course, you know, they couldn't sing in their houses, it was hot inside, you go outside and, and you would just sing. So, I think it was just birthed out of a need to create, right. You're, you know, young teenager, you got time on your hands, you can't afford an instrument, just gotta create. And it truly comes from that honest, innocent place that true art comes from.

13:10
And talking about where the art comes from, I mean, you also deal in the film, I think quite well with the the motivations for why these people were, especially the male groups, were singing. And we've got another clip. I know it's a bit early in the podcast but let's go. I'd like to play that here now about why these guys would start these groups. Could you set that up for us?

13:37
Absolutely, I think this is again, this was one of those questions that we asked that was a very consistent answer. And my guess is if you asked any young artists today, why they started, I'm gonna bet they would give you this exact same answer.

13:52
When you're singing those, those sweet love songs like that on the street corners, there were girls always around. And that was, that was it. That's what you wanna do.

14:05
This is what I wanna do. Yes, indeed.

14:13
But the main thing was all the girls used to come to the best group. And we were the best group. Over The Harptones and, and The Moonglow, we were the best group, they used to come and crowd and load up our corner. You know, and that was, that's the most marvelous skill. This is my younger days.

14:31
We wanted attention, you know, and that was the easiest way to get attention.

14:34
Well it was because of the girls. All the fellas wanted the girls, so...

14:39
That was the coolest thing in the world. That you didn't need a band. You didn't need anything, that you and your friends could go on the street corner and sing. And girls would like that. That's a big deal. That's a really big deal.

15:06
So that was the beginning of that evolution. It went from the street corner, to the subways and the hallways of Brooklyn. And remember, as we keep doing this, we're getting better and better and better at our craft.

15:18
It wasn't thought that we would eventually go on to be professional. It was just the fact that we were enjoying ourselves.

15:26
As long as I had a streetlight or a bunch of guys together, staying on the corner on the stoop, it didn't matter. For me, it was the inner city urban sound. For me, it was camaraderie. It was achievement. It was a coming together of a bunch of guys singing their hearts out, making harmony together.

15:55
So, as we've discovered in this clip, it's all about the girls. Now, what was the motivation for the women?

16:04
I think competition. I think, you know, they kind of discuss it in the film. And LaLa talks about it and it's, you know, if the boys can do it, why can't we? And, you know, I think too there was just, I think when you hear those harmonies, I think you just want to be a part of it. I think it was a movement that started that everyone wanted to participate in.

16:30
I mean, probably I'll say this again later in the discussion, but what struck me is also, it seems so much of it is just about a love for singing. I mean, obviously, one of them talked about wanting to be noticed. They're teenagers. But they didn't really seem to be doing it for the money, were they?

16:48
No, not at all. No, none of them, I think ever said out, you know, say okay, let's start a group. Let's go get a record deal. Let's record a song. Now all of this really began innocently enough to just, to sing and to harmonize and, you know, fill their evenings with something to do, something creative outlet. And then I think, you know, as we discuss in the film, you know, there was that song that we call the Big Bang, Frankie Lymon and The Teenagers and Why Do Fools Fall in Love? And I think once that happened, that was the spark where, you know, the groups, these kids realize, well hang on a second, maybe we can do this too. And then, of course, you know, the inverse was the music industry going - hey, we can make some money off of this. So once that spark was lit, you know, it was, it was on.

17:43
Maybe this is a good point to talk about some other issues that the film raises. Because it's not, it's just not all fun. Obviously. There's some other things that were happening. I mean, they were, it wasn't all smooth sailing, was it? I mean, they're teenagers, the record companies you've already alluded to... Maybe we can talk about some of those issues.

18:06
Absolutely. I think that one of the elements that we really wanted to discuss in the film is that, this music began innocently enough, but that these artists, you know, they paid a heavy price for being first. As I was saying earlier, you know, this was the first time that music was being written by kids for kids. You know, these weren't The Brill Building writers that had been there in the 40s and 50s, you know - white men who went to an office with a suit and tie and they sat down and wrote songs for a living, you know. This was the first time where a kid could come in and, you know, knock on the door and say, I've got a song. And somebody could say - yes, I'll record that song. Here's your contract. These kids were always under the age of 18. You know, their parents were usually uneducated or poor. There was no lawyers, entertainment lawyers or anything like that. And I believe it was Jimmy Merchant in the film that says, he came home, who was in Frankie Lymon and The Teenagers for Why do Fools Fall in Love and that song, he brought the contract home to his father to sign and his father was a janitor, I believe with a school and I believe he made $15 a week. And they were offering Jimmy $20 a week to sing, you know, this song, so why wouldn't my father sign that? You know, there was no such thing as royalties, so yeah, there was a, they paid a heavy price to be first. And the record companies knew they were young and naive and they took advantage of them. And a lot of them do not receive royalties, even though these songs still can earn millions of dollars.

20:00
I mean, what struck me is, obviously, that comes up and they're not happy about it. But I was surprised at how I didn't really sense much bitterness about it, to be honest.

20:14
No, absolutely, Matthew, I think that's one of the things that I took away from the film as well. With that, as we would sit down and we would interview these artists for hours, you know. We would sit down with them and have them tell their stories and I think we ended up with 127 hours of interviews. But by the time we would kind of get to the end and kind of get to the wrap up, they all are, I think at peace with the price they paid. And I think they look back on the impact that they've made socially and culturally, and it kind of come to terms with it. I think that there's an element of, I think Terry even says that, they would do it all over again. You know, that there was so much fun, that they did have an impact culturally was just really hard to do. And it gave them a career and a chance that a life that they probably wouldn't have had otherwise. So yeah, I'm like you, when we did the interviews I was surprised that there wasn't a bitterness. And yet there still was a pride that came with making this music and being happy that it's still here.

21:37
Yeah, talking about pride, it must be Charlie Thomas, he just makes it in no uncertain terms that, that they were the best group, The Drifters. Yeah, there's all these other folks, but you know, we were obviously the best ones. And they've aged extremely well. I mean, they were teenagers and only, I say in the 1950s. But one of the things you talk about is, because obviously most of this people were black or as we now mostly say, African American, is sort of the issues they faced, in terms of racism. That is a, not a theme, but certainly, that is something that you'd more than touch on in the film.

22:20
Absolutely, it was a story element that we felt needed to be told as well. That there was a dark side to this music, there's always, you know, there's always tails to the heads. And a lot of these young artists were 15, 16 years old. It's a music that began in the north, you know, it's associated with New York. And so, as these groups started to tour, they would go down south. And they would experience just overt racism that, you know, no one should ever experience, much less a teenager would experience.

22:59
I think what we'll do is, because I think will bring us to the third clip that I think we'd like to play, that is about their experience. These young black teenagers from places like Philadelphia, New York, Newark, who then would go on tour through the south. And what it was like performing in the south of Jim Crow in the late 50s and early 60s. So, we'll also go to a break. Listeners and watchers can listen to or watch that clip, and then we'll come back to the rest of the podcast.

23:35
That was all brand new to us. The South was different. The South was a lot different. it was, there wasn't as much fun.

23:56
I'll never forget Birmingham, Alabama. It was scary. It was a scary time in my life.

24:02
During 1959. We did a six week tour of one nighters in the south. And that was a mind boggling and eye opening situation for all of us.

24:15
We would see people outside. Sticks, guns - better not get off that bus, boy. It was a heck of a time.

24:25
You know, we knew what we were reading in the paper, as we heard it on the news. We saw things on TV about what was happening in the south, but we really didn't have a clue. To play the South was like, it was hard for me as a teenager, as a young teenager. I don't know about the other girls because they were 18 and maybe they were more mature than I was. I wasn't as mature to understand racism. And I was angry.

24:55
Some of it was rough. You know, we had to go to the backroom and going to the south, had to go to backroom to eat. We couldn't sit down and rest around. They wouldn't, they wouldn't serve you. They wouldn't serve you back then.

25:12
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter at Alamo pictures to keep up to date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.

25:33
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Brent Wilson, director and producer of Streetlight Harmonies, which you can find on video on demand, certainly in North America. Would describe it as basically a history of rock and roll squeezed into an hour and 20 minutes basically. There's a lot of stuff we won't even touch on. I mean, you've got, you get The Wall of Sound, we get girl groups, we've got Phil Spector and Jeff Barry, people like that. But I wanted to, we've just seen this clip, or listened to this clip about sort of racism that many of these music artists faced. One thing that struck me, because they had these other white groups that were traveling around with them, felt these friendships. I'm here in England, had a nice little section in there about the Beatles. But one thing that struck me is this visceral disgust about what happened with the song Sh-boom. I mean, they were not happy. So you had The Chords played the original and then this Canadian group, not picking on Canadians, but this group from Canada called The Crew Cuts came in and then hit it, scored a number one. But it seemed, across the board, everyone had nothing good to say about that.

26:52
Yeah, I think that was, for me as a director, that was just the clearest example of a song that was just butchered when it was covered by a white artists, which was, you know, the common practice at the time. Pat Boone and everyone covering Little Richard and it was just that's how the music industry, you know, further made money off of these artists. But the song Sh-Boom, if you've ever heard it, if you have it, you know, it's a great song and holds up to this day. And, for me as the director, in the editing bay, there was just no greater example of just taking a great song by great African American artists and just butchering the heck out of it with, you know, some white guys out of Canada. And it ended being successful. And I think that's the, that's the sin. It's not doing it and covering it, but doing it and covering it and it being more successful than the original.

26:53
Yeah. And I actually googled it. I just put in Sh-Boom and unfortunately, the first thing that comes up is an image of The Crew Cuts, you know?

28:06
Absolutely.

28:08
Then I double checked because I'm quite familiar with it for various reasons, mainly because, well, I've got children and they love The Cars movie and it's in there. And I was happy to see that they used The Chords version in The Cars. So, I felt a little bit better.

28:23
Me as well. I was as well. I was like, thank God.

28:31
So, I mean, I don't want to give away the film. I think everyone should watch it. Even if you're not interested in this time period. There's so much takeaway from it. And some amazing music. But I wanted to ask you, Brent, what is the legacy of Doo-Wop or vocal harmony music of this time?

28:54
I feel like it's still with us. I think when you, you know, you hear K-pop or you hear New Direction, you hear these vocal harmonies. You know, you see young boys or young girls out performing today. You know, that all began on a street corner. Little Anthony talks about hip hop, you know, you see four or five kids standing on a corner today rapping. That, you know, that's a direct line right back to Little Anthony and The Imperials standing on a corner, you know, singing. So, I think the legacy is these kids creating music for themselves. When you see 18,19,20 year old you know, writing, creating music that he or she is trying to market and sell and share with other kids - that's Doo-Wop. You know, that all began with Frankie Lymon and The Teenagers, Why Do Fools Fall in Love. So, from business level, I think that's it and then I think, I just think great music just lives on forever. And this music is in films today, you'll see it, like you said, in an animated film like Cars. You'll see it in commercials, you'll hear it in commercials. So this music will always be there, that original source of Doo-Wop will always be there, because it's just simply great.

30:30
Yeah. And, I mean, again, we were talking about the race side of things as well. But, you know, you could say it helped, at least carry along the civil rights movement. There's all kinds of other legacies that, when people finally who haven't had a chance to watch the film yet, will definitely discover and well worth their time to do so. I just want to change, well not change tag really, but just to ask you how did you get involved with this project? Was this your idea? How did this all start?

Our Lead Producer Tim Headington is out of Dallas, Texas and Tim is a lover of art, lover of music and loves Doo-Wop music. And we've done doing some other projects with Tim and our other producer Theresa Page. And Theresa and Tim have a production company called Ley Line Entertainment. And Theresa and Tim were just discussing one day that, you know, had there really been a documentary done on Doo-Wop music. And Tim has asked that question because he was such a fan of the music. So, Theresa and I were talking and I thought - well surely there's been a film done on this. It's so impactful and so important. And then there's 20, I can think of 20 different documentaries on the history of rock and roll, history of jazz, they just did 70 hours on the history of country music. And, you know, surely god, there's a documentary on Doo-Wop. And we started to poke around and realized no one had ever done a film, or even a really serious study on the impact of Doo-Wop or vocal harmony. And Tim said, well, we've got to do one. And I've known Tim and Theresa for some time. And we worked together, back in the NSYNC/Britney Spears days which is my background and Theresa's background. And Tim said let's do it, let's do a documentary on Doo-Wop music. And he had the faith that the film would find an audience and Theresa and Tim had the faith in me to try to tell this story. And it really began very, just in very honest, honest place.

I mean, I'm asking because I haven't actually had a chance to watch this other documentary called Hitsville. But did they even make reference to Doo-Wop in there? Because obviously there was, it built on Doo-Wop.

32:50
No, they really don't. No, they really don't. There's, again, one of the things we, one of the themes of the film is kind of a lack of respect for Doo-Wop. You know, there's just, I think that's why there was never really anything done on it before. I don't think anybody ever gave it much thought and it just didn't last very long. It had a really short life and I think that hurt it. I think the name Doo-Wop hurts it and, yeah nobody just, it just never gave it the respect it deserved.

33:26
And then, in telling this story, how did you craft that? Because it's not strictly linear like a lot of music doc's are. I mean, maybe a backbone, that's a bit linear, but you kind of dial it backwards and forwards, almost literally in one of the graphics. So, who helped you with that? Or is that your idea? How did you craft that?

33:47
Yeah, I've great co writer and editor, George Bellias. And we based that out with certain goals, certain things that I knew we wanted to touch on. But for the most part, as the documentary filmmaker, you know, you go in with questions, things that you think you're going to get answers to. But I just always try to listen when I ask my questions and let the interviewee take me down certain roads. And that's how you end up with, you know, some odd hours of footage that you've got to then cut down to an hour and twenty three. But I find it's the only way to really tell a story objectively is to just listen and let them kind of guide you as to where they're going to go. But we knew, there were certain things we wanted to do. We wanted it to look great. You know, I wanted it to be shot in 4k. We wanted it to look big and expensive. I wanted a beautiful graphics for it so that it looked current, present. I didn't want it to feel like it was in the past. I wanted to make it feel like it was in the present. We wanted to use a lot of music. Again, that was Tim and Theresa who allowed us the financial ability to be able to clear 35 songs I believe they're in the film, which is a lot for a music documentary. And we just wanted it to feel fresh, wanted it to feel present. Because my hope and goal was that it would be seen by people who don't like Doo-Wop music. If you like Doo-Wop music, you're going to love this documentary. So, I always say, you're going to come to the table. I don't need to do anything to bring you to the table. But how do I get maybe your son who heard, you know, Sh-Boom and go I love that song. How do I get that person to watch the film? And that was the way we approached it. That's why we keep it very short. You know, we wanted it to move quickly. That was a very conscious decision. Because we just wanted it to feel fresh and when you walked away, you were humming and whistlin and you want to go learn more and do some googling.

36:05
Hey, can I thank you for keeping it relatively short. Because a pet peeve of mine these days, I watch a lot of, I mean, they're good films. They're excellent films, many of them, but they always seem to be about 20 minutes too long, you know? And in getting it, I saw it, was like, wow it's only an hour and 20. And then, and there's not a wasted second, I would say in that film.

36:27
Thank you very much. Yeah, that was, really was a conscious decision. I mean, you know, we could have very easily made the film two hours long and expanded on things. But I think it, you know, it doesn't serve the greater audience. You can, you know, you can make this film six hours long, and you could never truly tell the entire story of Doo-Wop music. Even though it only lasted a few years. So, Ken Burns, I think did country music over 70 hours, and he still ended it like the year 2000. You know, he did 70 hours. So, you're never going to be able to tell the story. So just make it the best story you can. And that was the way we approached it.

37:09
So I have a question for you because I think, I wanted to ask you about getting this film released, because I sense there's a story here. Because I've seen some places the film's listed as 2017, and then other places listed as 2019. And I gathered it's released on the 31st of March of 2020. So what were the, when was this film made? And did you have any challenges getting it released?

37:35
Yeah, very much so, yeah. The film took a long time to produce, as most documentaries do. I'm not saying anything different than any other documentary filmmaker. They're generally labors of love. You know, they're not, they just take a long time. Particularly if you're trying to be, you know, financially responsible, make them even longer, which we tried to do. So it took, Gosh, I think three years of kind of stopping and starting to get the film going. And then you know, you do the festival circuit. And you, we were very fortunate we appeared at DOC NYC. Some of the offers that kind of come in are always, you know, you just don't feel are worthy. And we were in a situation where, fortunately, we could wait for the best offer. Tim and Theresa truly believed in making sure this film had the widest release possible, that this film was seen by as many people as possible. So, Tim and Theresa were really adamant that this is an important film. It's not a film that necessarily needs to make a lot of money. It needs, the story needs to be told and these artists need to be heard. And, you know, all the credit to them for having the faith in the project to hold out until we got a situation where we could get on an iTunes and get it in Amazon and get ourselves to the broadest audience possible. Instead of just a small niche audience.

39:01
Yeah. I mean, do you think that's a problem with the industry? With trying to get distribution? Because this is a great film. I don't see why, you know, so many filmmakers find this difficult, I think.

39:14
Absolutely. That's, that's probably a whole another, you know. It's so tough, at least with documentaries because, you know, nowadays there is a change. In the past, I think documentaries were always kind of considered educational, and, you know, they serve their purpose, but they were not moneymakers. They were just, they had that dynamic. And then on a dime, it seemed to switch to, you know, after I think maybe 20 Feet from Stardom or a few others where they resist this huge surge. And now you get the, it was Crazy Tiger One on Netflix that, you know, millions and millions of people are watching. Now, the table is turned. Now, the studios only want documentaries that they think they can make a ton of money off of. And if you look at our film, it's a small film. It's a sweet film. But it's not going to be, you know, one of these murder documentaries, this crazy Tiger thing. But that's what everybody wants. Everybody is after now, they now look at documentaries and go okay, how many millions can we make off of this? It just literally went overnight from - you know what, this is a great film, the story needs to be told. This is really nice that people get this - to - Oh my gosh, we can make a ton of money off of this. How much money can we make? And so, if you're somewhere in the middle, it can be a difficult spot to be because we've tried to make the film commercial. We wanted it to be seen by a broad audience. But it's not Murder and Mayhem and, you know? There's no cults, it's...

41:03
Exactly. There's no blood. There's no bullets flying. No one's in danger, put in danger or in harm's way. And you and I are laughing, but I mean, I do some work with a production company here. And, you know, I've been in off, back when we did have meetings face to face, and you have people in there and saying, you know - I don't know, there's just not enough danger here. We're not gonna, you know, we're not going to get this in front of enough eyeballs, you know? Yes, it might do okay at festivals, something like that, you know.

41:33
Exactly. That's our film. And it's really interesting because it really did turn on a dime. They really did, you know, just in the last couple of years where it's like, you know, can this film make millions of dollars? Can it compete at an international level with a studio film? And, yeah, unfortunately, I think a lot of good stories are getting lost in that transition.

42:00
Interesting. So, I want to talk about another project of yours. Because in the Streetlight Harmonies, you've got, Brian Wilson makes an appearance. So you've also got a, as if you're not busy enough already, you had a Brian Wilson doc that's also come out this year. How did, were you literally doing them at the same time? How were you juggling that?

42:26
Fortunately, no. Fortunately, no. But after we had finished up Streetlight Harmonies and we just developed a really nice relationship with Brian Wilson's manager. We approached them, Tim, Theresa and I, about a documentary about Brian Wilson of The Beach Boys. Because, you know, Brian was the opposite of Streetlight Harmonies and that, you know, there's already two, at least two documentaries done on Brian Wilson. There's three or four on The Beach Boys. There's dozens of books on Brian Wilson, and there's even a feature film, Love and Mercy. And it was the opposite. But yet, as a fan, I never felt like I really knew who Brian was. I still never got a complete picture of who Brian Wilson the person was. And so, we approached Jean Sievers, Brian's manager, Tim, Theresa and I, and asked them if they'd be interested in us having a go at it. And that proved to be its own crazy adventure. And I say that with pains, laughs of pain.

43:35
Well, he's an enigmatic figure, as I think you've said. I mean, he's this great mystery guy out there. I mean, for those, I mean, I always forget what are, not exactly sure what our demographic is, but just to repeat that Brian Wilson is the founder and one of the members of The Beach Boys which, for certain a generation or two is a huge name. I mean, you had your own experience with that, but is that been released?

44:06
It is not. We finished the film. We were supposed to appear at Tribeca. And, of course that got cancelled which is, you know, it's, put us in a tailspin. As it has for everybody. I think the documentary tree right now is just, it's just in a tailspin right now. Everybody's trying to figure out what to do, how to do this. How do you get your film seen? And I don't know if anybody has the answers yet. We're in that vacuum, unfortunately with Brian Wilson right now.

44:46
Because, just for our listeners who don't know basically how it's worked in the past, up until now is that you got your film into festivals, and then that's when you met distributors. Or distributors would come on board and say hey, we like that film. And then we want to, you know, get it in theatrical release or VOD or whatever.

45:06
Exactly. And I think with Brian, what really hurt us is that, it's a very deeply personal and intimate film. It's extremely intimate. And there's never been a film like it. I can say, the way that we shot it, the way we did it, the way we got Brian to tell his story has never been done before. And so it's a little bit different. And it's deeply, deeply personal. And it needs to be played with an audience. You know, I think for this film, there's 54 songs. And it's, you know, we mixed it in 5:1, and again, we shot it in 4K. And it's just, it's a film that needs attention, you know, you need to pay attention to it. It's deeply intimate, deeply personal, very nuanced. Cause Brian doesn't speak a lot, you really need to watch his face and his reactions and his emotions. And watching it at home, during the pandemic, is not the way for the film to be seen. And that's the way a lot of films are being sent out. And, you know, we were, I think two weeks away from Tribeca when everything hit and everything got canceled, and I was actually shopping for a suit when they cancelled it. My wife was like you're wearing a new suit when they cancelled it. And we were playing on a Saturday night in their largest theater and I think it was 900 seats. It was almost already sold out with two weeks to go. I know in my heart, that film would have played really well with an audience and it needs to be seen with an audience. So, unfortunately, you know, we're no different than so many other documentaries right now.

46:52
So, you're gonna hold off until you can get, until the theaters open up, is that the plan?

46:58
Exactly. So, I think our plan is now that we're going to take the film, we're going to hope for festivals to come back. You know, Sundance is in January. So, we've got our fingers crossed that, you know, next year, the festivals will make a comeback and get the film seen that way. So, that's our hope, but it's edited, it's done. And it's sitting there ready to go and I can't wait for people to see it. It's a beautiful film. If you love Brian Wilson, if you love The Beach Boys, if you've ever had anyone who's suffered from mental health, I think it's a film that will touch and move a lot of people.

47:42
Well, I definitely look forward to seeing it and hopefully you can get it released relatively soon and we would love to have you back on. That would be great. That seems like a great place to end this discussion, believe it or not, because we are coming kind of towards the end of our time together. But I wanted to give the last word to the Doo-Wop artists actually, on this on this particular podcast and you've alluded to it already. You got your start with music videos and things Britney Spears, NSYNC, Backstreet Boys, and I'm sure there's loads of others. I'm not asking you to tell any tales or anything but what, we kind of already touched on this but, what struck you about the Doo-Wop artists versus other artists that you have worked with over the years?

48:37
That's a great question. I had never been asked that question before. I love the sense of commitment that they still have in their 70s. I love their passion that they have in their 70s. Will we be talking about some of these artists today? Will Justin Bieber be performing in his 70s? You know, still committed to the music, still committed to telling his story. Katy Perry, you pick your artists today that is huge, will they in their 70s and 80s want to be out there telling their stories, singing their songs? I don't know. I have my doubts. So, I think the thing that I took away from all of those artists was the passion that they had to a lifetime commitment of music. They committed at a very young age, you know, 15,16 years old to a lifetime of creating music and sharing music. And here they are, you know, they're still doing it. They're still out there. You can find Charlie Thomas out on tour, you can find LaLa Brooks and the Crystals out on tour, and I love that. I love the fact that they committed. There was no plan B. It was like I'm going to be, you know, an artist. I'm going to be a singer, and they're doing it. And I hope that the artists today, and it's the same with Brian Wilson. Brian Wilson proves non stop. And we talk, Nick Jonas is in the film. And, you know, Nick Jonas even says that. Nick Jonas, we've talked about how he kind of follows a very similar path with Brian. He goes, can I see myself doing 180 shows at 75? I don't think so. You know, so I think that's what I took away. Is that they committed to a lifetime of music, and they're still out there doing it.

50:36
Well, I said I was going to give, through you, Brent Wilson, I was going to give the Doo-Wop artists the last word. So, I will give them the last word. I'll leave it, leave it there. And I just wanted to thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure to have you on the Factual America podcast. And hope to have you on again soon given that we've got the Brian Wilson doc hopefully coming out in maybe 2021, if not sooner. And just to remind our listeners and watchers, we've been with the director and producer of Streetlight Harmonies, which is available on Amazon prime and other video on demand channels. Also, want to remind you, well, first of all I should give a shout out to This Is Distorted Studios, here in Leeds, England. And please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America signing off.

51:37
SONG PLAYING (The Drifters - Stand by me)

52:40
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo pictures specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at Alamo pictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festival showing our films and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk