The Great Hack: Big Tech and the Post-Truth World

Factual America

15 Dec

Written By

We live under the spell of big data. We give the big tech firms access to our personal data and they shape our lives without us even knowing it. This includes how we choose our leaders.

Award-winning directors and producers Jehane Noujaim and Karim Amer join us to discuss their film The Great Hack, released by Netflix last year. The Great Hack observes the actors in the Facebook-Cambridge Analytica data scandal surrounding the 2016 US presidential election.

Jehane and Karim discuss how data has become a commodity, more valuable than oil, making big tech firms the richest companies of all time. In the process, we now all live public lives in a post-truth world.

Would world-changing events like Brexit and the election of Donald Trump in 2016 have been possible without big tech and big data? The Great Hack lets you be the judge.

“There’s 5,000 data points on me, but who owns that information?” - Jehane Noujaim

Time Stamps:

03:33 - The new challenges involved in raising kids in these times of smart devices.
07:20 - A brief synopsis of the The Great Hack.
11:00 - How filming The Square led them onto this story, and how the story changed over time.
17:30 - The film's roots in searching for ‘wreckage sites’ where technology clashes with society.
19:15 - Meeting Carol Cadwalladr, who opened the doors to understanding Trump and Brexit.
25:01 - The unreliability of some sources and the right we have to our data.
27:57 - How they found out about Brittany Kaiser and got in contact with her.
35:06 - Brittany as protagonist and why she made such an interesting subject.
39:44 - The post-truth era and how it stops us having conversations around real facts.
41:18 - What Karim thinks about the few big tech companies that dominate the market.
49:43 - Jehane’s interest in hacking the mind and their sex cult documentary The Vow.
52:20 - The problem with the way the media treats whistleblowers.

Resources:

The Great Hack (2019)
The Vow TV Series
The Square (2013)
Control Room (2014)
The Orgasm Cult Podcast
Alamo Pictures

Transcript for Factual America Episode 41 - The Great Hack: Big Tech and the Post-Truth World

Jehane Noujaim 0:00
My name is Jehane Noujaim. I am a filmmaker and I was the director of The Great Hack and the director of The Vow, The Square, Control Room, a number of films, many of which I made with my partner Karim.

Karim Amer 0:20
Hi, my name is Karim Amer. I'm also director of The Great Hack, I was a producer and I also did The Square air with Jehane and directed The Vow among other films.

Speaker 1 0:42
Who has seen an advertisement that has convinced you that your microphone is listening to your conversations?

Speaker 4 0:53
All of your interactions, your credit card swipes, web searches, locations, likes, they're all collected in real time into a trillion dollar a year industry.

Unknown Speaker 1:06
The real game changer was Cambridge Analytica. They had work for the Trump campaign and for the Brexit campaign. They started using information warfare.

Speaker 6 1:17
Cambridge Analytica claimed to have 5000 data points on every American voter.

Unknown Speaker 1:25
I started tracking down all these Cambridge Analytica ex-employees.

Speaker 8 1:30
Someone else that you should be calling to the committee is Brittany Kaiser.

Speaker 9 1:32
Brittany Kaiser, once a key player inside Cambridge Analytica casting herself as a whistleblower.

Speaker 10 1:41
The reason why Google and Facebook are the most powerful companies in the world is because last year data surpassed oil in value.

Speaker 12 1:49
Data is the most valuable asset on earth.

Speaker 13 1:53
We targeted those whose minds we thought we could change until they saw the world the way we wanted them to.

Speaker 15 2:01
I do know that their targeting tool was considered a weapon.

There is a possibility that the American public have been experimented on.

This is becoming a criminal matter.

When people see the extent of the surveillance, I think they're going to be shocked.

Speaker 16 2:17
And I still fear for your life, with the powerful people that are involved.

But I can't keep quiet just because it will make powerful people mad.

Unknown Speaker 2:26
Data rights should be considered just fundamental rights.

Unknown Speaker 2:30
This is about the integrity of our democracy. These platforms which were created to connect us have now being weaponized. It's impossible to know what is what. Because nothing is what it seems.

Intro 2:55
That is the trailer for the Netflix documentary The Great Hack. And this is Factual America. Brought to you by Alamo pictures, a production company that makes documentaries about America for international audiences. Today we're talking about the impact of big tech on elections and other events that shape our lives. Helping us to learn more about this and the Facebook - Cambridge analytical data scandal are award winning directors, Karim Amer and Jehane Noujaim. Did I get that right?

Jehane Noujaim 3:22
That's correct.

Intro 3:23
All right. Excellent. Welcome, Karim and Jehane, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you in upstate New York?

Jehane Noujaim 3:33
We're great. Thank you. We're currently living outside of Woodstock. We have three little kids. So it's actually a blessing in disguise that they're getting more used to nature. Being outside a lot more. In New York, you know, it's a little bit difficult to give them access to that.

Less screentime.

Matthew 3:55
Yes. How old are you kids? Out of curiosity?

Jehane Noujaim 4:00
We have four year old twins and a five year old daughter, four year old twin boys and a five year old daughter.

Matthew 4:06
Oh my god, you guys are busy. How do you find time to make films?

Jehane Noujaim 4:12
When we began The Great Hack, we had no kids. So that gives you an idea how long did we need to make the film, you know, which maybe we shouldn't be advertising. But these projects take quite a lot out of you and take quite a lot of time to what it is that you're trying to say and whether what you're trying to say can be seen in a movie, or should just be a book. Like most things.

Karim is probably supporting his public school.

It's our kids school.

Matthew 4:44
Okay, excellent. Well.

Jehane Noujaim 4:47
When there was school, right now it's all remote. But, you know, all these projects always come from a personal place. And having kids, I think, really got me thinking or, you know, being somebody who's about to have kids, when we started The Great Hack, really, I was thinking about kids growing up with screens everywhere, cost of manipulation, and how do you raise kids in a world where you just can't, they can't disappear. You know, my favorite times, that I think back of as a child, are in the woods with absolutely no devices and sort of, no pictures of that time. So it was just, we've lost the ability to disappear. And we were kind of looking at that and looking at the, you know, tech and the ability of tech to manipulate. And same with why we started The Vow actually was, you know, somebody had lost their daughter to a cult. And we were looking and we just had a daughter. So I think that these stories, you know, really resonate with us when they have a personal element to them. And what we want to think about, what we want to ask questions about.

Matthew 6:06
I think these are things all parents are struggling with. I have children and teenagers now, and talk about screen time and the struggles. But even the little ones are, it's, you know, it's a different generation, as you say. One of the main films we're gonna be talking about is The Great Hack, came out in 2019, Netflix. So thank you again for coming on. It's been, as you've already alluded to, quite a bit busy year. Released in 2019, I guess you've probably been a lot of questions too, about the film in the run up to the 2020 election. You've got these other projects, The Vow. But for those listeners of ours who haven't had a chance to see the film, Karim, maybe you can give us a synopsis of what The Great Hack is all about?

Karim Amer 7:04
What is The Great Hack about? That's, well,

Matthew 7:08
It's a loaded question

Karim Amer 7:09
It is a loaded question. I think that, you know, let's start with what I hope it can provide for us when we look back. I think that, and from there, we can maybe figure out what it's about. It's very hard for a filmmaker, I think, to really describe what their film is about, because there's, depends which day of the year you catch him? But I think to me, it's like the film is about, it's trying to capture this moment in time in history, where we realized and felt this existential feeling that so many people in the world felt like, wait, there's something that is kind of predicting my behavior, and is trying to shape my behavior in a way that I understand and don't fully understand. And that something has also been politicized in a way that is unlike any other political experience we've lived through thus far. I think that kind of really, that moment, of kind of awareness is what The Great Hack really captured, you know. It's this time when we realize that our data is this footprint that we leave behind, in ways that we don't really understand and ways we're not really been informed about, and ways we may not have fully fully consented to. And that that data is being used in a very complex industry, to predict our behavior and try to shape it. And that, I think the conflict is really about how we've come to this realization that in this new era, where data are traded for services in such a way, that everything's been commoditized of our human behavior, and including our political views. And I think the question that Great Hack, I hope leaves people with, is what does a open society look like and what is a democracy? How does the democracy function when our behavior and our political behavior has been so commoditized to such a degree? I think that's really what the film captures. Now, we use the kind of story of the Cambridge Analytica - Facebook scandal, as the kind of plot, so to speak, hows to these questions. And that all comes about because we have these, you know, great characters who give us access into their lives and provide a gateway for us to take these complicated ideas and philosophical questions, some of which I just voiced, and personalize them into an experience that is vulnerable, emotional and relatable to an audience.

Matthew 10:16
And what struck me was, how did you guys get on the case so early? Because it's not like, just looking back, I mean this thing, this story is unfolding, the scandal's unfolding right in front of our eyes on camera. And so how did, you know, I guess the story broke in what - 2017? Although some of us were hearing about Cambridge Analytica before that, taking credit for getting Trump elected. But, you know, some of this allegations and things that were coming out, that was more 2017. So how did you get on the story so early and actually get these characters you mentioned, get them on camera?

Karim Amer 11:00
Well, I think, how did we start? Well, you know, we had made a film called The Square, which was about the Arab Spring through the lens of Tahrir Square, and the events that occurred there, also through characters. And in that film, we had witnessed technology play a part, which was quite interesting. Because here was technology, being heralded as the galvanizing tool or instrument for democratic processes, right? Facebook was the method by which people could gather and organize and Twitter gave everybody, all the voiceless a voice. It became a method of accountability of abuse of power. And it was a magical moment in time, when we felt like, wow, here are these tools that have come from the gods of Silicon Valley, and have allowed for, you know, democracy, civil discourse, all these values that we love, to blossom. And the story kind of, you know, a lot of the world's attention kind of left there. And I remember coming to the United States, and seeing how Silicon Valley was so excited about, you know, the Arab Spring, and took a lot of credit for it. And then the pendulum swung the other way. And we saw these same tools being used first by autocratic regimes that authoritarian, and they go after dissidents. And then we saw these, you know, same tools being used by ISIS to radicalize people, and so suddenly it was like, wait, the tools aren't inherently democratic. It's about how they're used. You know, this could be a tool or a weapon, depends whose hands it's in. And there was no accountability, though, from, you know, the technology companies about the wreckage sites that were left behind by some of these technologies being mishandled. And so we quickly, I think, had an awareness that the pendulum of technology swings, it's not just inherently positive. And when it swings in the other direction, it actually has a lot of externality costs onto society, that we don't quite understand or may not be taking notice to. And the reason why we're not taking notice to them is because oftentimes, they're quite invisible, right? How do you tell a crime story without having a crime scene? And that was kind of like where we had started to begin this process. And we were interested in the space of hacking and how the space of hacking was actually more about information warfare. And it was about just like, you know, blocking people access into their office building, or just, you know, breaking physical damage of locations with it. And, you know, we had been exploring that space, we began a film in that space that had nothing to do with Cambridge, Analytica in 2014-2015. And then the challenge of making a film about technology is that just as you're figuring out the language for it, the story moves, right. Because there's a lag between the speed of technology and our ability to kind of make sense of it even regulated, for example, right.

Jehane Noujaim 14:23
There's a real deficit of language. So there's both a deficit of language and then deficit of visuals to be aware, where is the melting snow and, you know, the ice caps melting. Where is that strong image to show that we're leaking, you know, data everywhere we go, and that we're, you know, we're leaving these footprints and those footprints are being commoditized. And so ultimately controlling us and where does free will fit into all of this? So ultimately, we were fascinated with the idea of how technology was really hacking the human mind. I mean, obviously, we've been obsessed with this idea of hacking the human mind. It's just in Great Hack it's through technology and in The Vow, it's through a charismatic leader. But it's basically about that. It's how do you film that? And we realized that we wanted to find characters that were very much in the center of this story and trying to figure it out for themselves. And that's really verite filmmaking. I studied with, and did my first films with D.A. Pennebaker and Chris Hegedus. How do you tell a story, that is a story that affects us all? You have to find a microcosm of that story. And you have to find the characters, compelling characters, who are going to take you emotionally through that journey. And in the process, you learn. So we began looking for those characters.

Exactly. And then what we found, you know, was that every time we find an interesting thread or story end, it was people describing incredible stuff, but you couldn't really see any of that. And, you know, film is a visual medium, and as filmmakers we're always like, why is this a movie? Like, how has the story earned, that it's a movie, that we know how to make? Again, as to Jehane's point, it's like, we don't make films about topics, you know. There's a lot of filmmakers who do and I commend them, but that's not our method. Our method is a character on a journey that we can follow that can personify an aspect of a story. But no character can ever, you know, personify an entire topic. Like, there's no, Square is not a film about the entire Arab Spring, or even the Egyptian revolution. It's just about three people's experience through it, right. That's the only truth that we know, really how to do with our process. And so while we're mapping this space, we were like, well, we can make a series, we can make here. There's so many stories, you know, like whether it was Gucci fur, or whether it was, you know, what was going on with the this information and seeing how, you know, for a bit, we had looked at the stories of the, what's it called, the pizza parlor. We were up, we were up in all that space, but we were there before most, and we had a we actually interviewed all these people.

Karim Amer 17:37
Looking for wreckage sites.

Jehane Noujaim 17:38
Looking for what we call wreckage sites, where is like, where the wreckage sites where we could feel, where we could see the clash between technology and society, and really, and really find it. And so these wreckage sites are what we looked for. And then who were characters that could take us through. And, you know, in our opinion, the biggest wreckage site at that time was 2016 election. And I think that the, you know, seeing that and Brexit together, was just like, wait, here are two of the most unpredictable outcomes of the year of modern political history, some would argue, right? And they both happen. And then wait, there's one company that worked on both, like, that's kind of weird. And wait, this company happens to be a military contractor that happens to be playing in the game of, you know, the hearts and minds. And wait, this company, like, you know, learned how to do this on British and American taxpayer money playing in our part of the world, the Middle East, you know, where they were doing psyops? Okay, cool. Wow, interesting. Okay, so it's a psyops company was hired. Okay, it looks like the hens have come home to roost, right.

Well, and they had been involved in 165 elections all over the world in 30 countries, something crazy like that. And we were a little bit like, as people who come from a country that's been colonized, Egypt, we were thinking, is this the new form of colonization through data?

Karim Amer 18:52
And so that's kind of where, then when we met Carole Cadwalladr, it was like, you know, meeting an old friend, you know. I mean, we just hit it off immediately. And it was, you know, we met, we actually met in the train station. You know, in a good John le Carré fashion. It was quite, you know, I came to London just to meet with her. And told her what we were doing, and she was like, wow, you guys seem really ahead of this curve. She hadn't published the article yet, but about Wylie. One piece. And what Carol had done in her piece, even though she wasn't the first to write about Cambridge, she was the first to really tell, you know, Hannes Grassegger had been the first one to write about the Cambridge Analytica story, in a Das magazin article that then became motherboard. And it was a big article, came out in December. And then Carol wrote, in the following year, a piece in the Observer Guardian, where she really made the linkage of like trying to see like, wait, this is not a national problem, it's a transatlantic story. And, you know, because of her brilliance and the way that she writes narrative through her journalism as well, you're able to see that this was a much more complicated thing. And to make it more clear, is actually what Carol kind of provided, I think, was this idea that to understand Trump, we have to understand Brexit. And to understand Brexit, we had to understand Trump, and that these were two kind of stories that were interlinked. And that, into an understanding, why would a group of financiers support both? And wait, is this the new way that politics is being played? Where we have shadow money, you know, dark money, coming into different elections. It's not even from the countries, trying to affect the outcomes. And using data analytics and using Facebook, which we had all signed up for, and like we had our baby pictures on, to all of a sudden, you know, micro target the shit out of particular people with things that would drive them crazy, and rile the shit out of them, to get them to have a very emotional state, and affect their political lenient. And that it wasn't about, and that elections were no longer about speaking to an entire group of people. It wasn't one leader tells one nation a story, it was one leader tells every single voter the story that they want to hear. And that only they see. And that is all that matters, and that the leader doesn't even have to be consistent, because they can just send a message to each person individually. And not even be called out for saying completely opposing messages. Because all these ads disappear on Facebook and Facebook feels that has no obligation to hold them, preserve them, or tell anybody who paid for it or anything. And all of this is happening because we accepted that these guys, these tech gods wear hoodies like this, and that they must be nice guys. Look at them, they're harmless, right? So that was kind of what was going on, you know. And then, sorry, I kind of skipped ahead. But back to the train station. As you can see, this is why these films are made by really good editors.

Jehane Noujaim 22:57
Into the linear and just the cogent thing and not just...

Matthew 23:00
Fly all over the place. Yeah.

Karim Amer 23:02
Back to the train station, Carol and I headed off. We had a kind of like, show me your cards, I'll show you mine. And then she's like, well, if you can stay a little longer, there's someone you should meet. And I was like, I can stay longer. I changed my flight. And then later that day, she took me to meet Chris Wylie, and then...

Jehane Noujaim 23:24
She had more cards to show.

Karim Amer 23:26
She had a lot more cards to show. I just had a lot of interesting ideas, but she had the cards.

Jehane Noujaim 23:31
She had the goods.

Karim Amer 23:32
And alien that you know, it was a mind blowing conversation. And he hadn't come forward yet. And he didn't have pink hair at the time. We had some nice Lebanese take out and talked in London about everything for several hours. And I left that meeting and I was both terrified and shocked and in awe of what I heard. And I was like, okay, this is a movie. This is a movie like there is ...

Jehane Noujaim 24:01
You've found a movie

Karim Amer 24:02
We found a movie. Because what you're looking for, as a filmmaker is like, okay, I want to say this stuff. But I need a plot and characters and a canvas that provides that. And what Cambridge Analytica gave, it was like, you know, filmmakers dream of these characters like Alexander Nix, and he's out of Central Casting from James Bond. And you can't make this shit up. Right? It's like, there were all of these people that are just like, unbelievable. And then it's...

Jehane Noujaim 24:33
So we were moving to London. We were moving our entire family to London. And then Chris Wylie ghosts us. He just won't, he just won't respond. And we had, you know, we were making, going to be making this film with him and the rest of it. And then a friend of ours, Jess, calls us and says I have somebody else that I want...

Well, we moved on for a little bit. We were like, well, you know what, because this has happened to us before. You meet someone, you know, who's in these nooks and crannies of the web that few people navigate. And they want to tell you this great story. And then you're like, okay, let's do it. And then they're like, oops, sorry, I changed my mind, deleted my number, and I can't speak to anybody. Okay. This is the second time this happened. Like, okay, this is crazy, you know.

People were terrified, and he was terrified. And so...

Karim Amer 25:32
Mind you, this is like, right after Trump had won 2016. Steve Bannon, his former boss is, you know, running the White House, basically. And he's got this story that completely indirects Bannon and shows a very different side of the game that nobody had understood. So that was kind of the insider part of it. And so we kind of moved beyond Cambridge, a little bit for B. And we were looking, you know, we had been filming with David Carroll, who was a fascinating character at the time. Because it was like, you know, while Wylie had given us inside information as to what was happening. David Carroll was an everyday citizen, who was like, do I ask him a question? Do I have a right to know what data was collected on me? And how my data was used against me potentially? And that seems like a pretty simple question. Yet, it didn't have a simple answer. Because that question, it challenged the power dynamics that existed at the time of what was the legal responsibility of data collection, data harvesting, your right to know who owns your data? Is it your property? Is it not? All of these things hadn't been actually resolved. And the European interpretation was very different than the American interpretation, right.

Jehane Noujaim 27:09
Who owns my data. Basically, David had found out I have, there's 5000 data points on me. And so who actually owns that information? And, you know, should, we needed answer. Then he goes to Ravi, who's a solicitor in London, and he decides that he's going to pursue a case against Cambridge Analytica. But we still were having, you know, boyfriend breakup issues, because, you know, Chris Wylie had ghosted us. And we weren't sure exactly how to make the film. Because we make films following people on a journey. And so we had David, following, we were following his story. And then we get this call from Jess Search, who's another wonderful friend, filmmaker, British friend of ours, who says that she wants to introduce us to somebody who is about to meet Brittany Kaiser, and has been in communication with Brittany Kaiser.

Karim Amer 28:14
We didn't even know her name yet. Brittany Kaiser wasn't a name. It was just someone else who is former Cambridge.

Matthew 28:20
So that's how you, is that how you got, I guess, you get in touch with Paul Hilder? Is that right? And that's how you tracked her down to Thailand?

Jehane Noujaim 28:27
Yes. So she introduces us to Paul. And then I get a call. I'm in Egypt at the time. I get a call from Karim saying, listen, Chris Wylie is nothing. He wasn't even around when the whole Trump contract was signed.

Matthew 28:44
Exactly.

Karim Amer 28:45
It was year and a half before Trump was even in the picture.

Intro 28:48
Exactly. That comes out in your film, though. But yes, it's.

Karim Amer 28:52
He couldn't speak to what happened during the election.

Intro 28:55
And he set up a rival company, as well. And pitched to the Trump people as well, from what I understand. But that's, let's not go down that tangent.

Jehane Noujaim 29:08
Karim says to me, there's this girl. this woman. Her name is, well we didn't know her name yet.

Karim Amer 29:15
First. It was Paul. So we met Paul Hilder. And I met Paul. And we, we chatted briefly. I was on my way to London. And he had just arrived in New York. And we met actually, in an Uber. And he dropped me at the airport, we had a meeting in the Uber. He drops me at JFK. And then I took off and I was like, okay, I'm gonna do this. And he basically told me this crazy story about this woman that he've been communicating with for a while over LinkedIn and then gradually developed this conversation with her. And that she had a lot of information and she was really pissed off about how the media had kind of gotten the story wrong. And was finally ready to talk. But the caveat was, could I be in Thailand in 48 hours to this remote island off the coast, that she was kind of hanging out at. And I was like okay.

Matthew 30:25
So you do it?

Jehane Noujaim 30:26
I get this call. Basically, Karim was supposed to come back for the holidays in Egypt. And, you know, supposed to see his mother. We haven't seen for a long time. His mother calls me up and is like, he's still upset that he lost this Chris Wylie character? That's why he's flying to I-don't-know-where to meet this person. Are you sure she's legitimate? And I said, I have no idea. But we're gonna have a conversation with her. We talked with her on the phone, on signal and she says to us - look, I have four days of sort of quiet time before I'm about to come out with my story and speak to all of these New York Times journalists and other journalists. And so if you want to meet me, you really have to come here now. I can't tell you exactly where I am, but land at this airport. And then I'll tell you where to go. So I said Karim that's going to be your job.

Intro 31:19
So this is le Carré, I mean this is Bond. It's like, you even have that scene where you're on the boat going from the islands. It looks like straight out of a Bond film.

Karim Amer 31:28
That actually is James Bond Island, where we shot.

Jehane Noujaim 31:33
We couldn't resist. We couldn't resist putting these, I mean, what an incredible place to meet somebody who's about to reveal all of this information. So Karim goes there, meets her. And we weren't sure, you know, with characters like this, they've been coming and disappearing. And so she says, she started telling him this information about what she's been involved with, and the conversation started in the pool. So like a good verite filmmaker, he said, pull out the camera. And that's the first interview that we do is Brittany in the pool. And that starts our incredible journey with her. And here was somebody who had been, you know, worked for the Obama administration, worked on the Facebook page, then moved to London and then had worked for Cambridge Analytica.

Karim Amer 32:31
What she, you know, what she had was, she had the arc of that swing of technology. So, you could see, she was at the birth of Facebook being used with Obama, and Yes We Can and all of that, and then she had been there when it swung, you know, eight years later, to be used in a very different way and be more weaponized as a method of actually suppressing people's encouragement to vote. And she's just seen both. And she had gone from being someone who was, you know, quite progressive and quite supportive of these democratic or values that the Democratic Party subscribes to more so, and then she'd swung in the other direction. And so I think that she showed this, in her persona, how's the conflict and the trajectory. And she had first hand information, she pitched Trump campaign. She wrote the contract, she was there at the whole thing. And now she was kind of wanting to course correct and tell the world what really went on.

Matthew 33:45
Hold that thought. I want to give our listeners a quick break, and then we'll be right back with Karim and Jehane.

Factual America midroll 33:53
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter at Alamo pictures to keep up to date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.

Matthew 34:13
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Karim Amer and Jehane Noujaim, directors and producers of The Great Hack, Netflix, as New York Times says "a film about how your data became a commodity". We were talking about Brittany Kaiser who in true cinema verite tradition, I think it's gonna go, you know, she's quite a character, isn't she? I mean, it's not what I expected. I'm not sure what I expected when I sat down to watch this film. But then it quickly became more and, think you're true to your Pennebaker roots and whatnot. Just seeing this very interesting person in the pool with their sunglasses on, talking to you about this, in the middle of this James Bond Island, as you said, in Thailand. But she's quite, I mean, she was only in her 20s when she was writing these contracts, wasn't she?

Jehane Noujaim 35:11
Yeah. That's right. The whole movie starts with Burning Man, which gives you a hint of the characters involved.

Intro 35:21
Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting. As this was all uncovered, cause obviously this is all unfolding in front of you, what were you thinking? Did you know you were gonna find what you found when, as the cameras are rolling?

Karim Amer 35:47
You know, I think what a good character provides you in a story like this is that you don't know exactly what they're going to do next, and they don't fully know what they're gonna do next. There is an aspect, it's unpredictable. And I think the challenge of making, the challenge and also the part of it that I quite enjoy, of this kind of filmmaking is that you're on a ride, you know. And if you can find a way to tether with that person and create that space of mutual trust, you can go on that ride together and create a space for an audience to be a part of it as well. And I think that that provides you with a way to just enjoy the ride. And I think that ride sometimes will take you on places that you don't like, because life is messy, you know. And you're watching something unfold, you're not with Brittany reflecting 10 years later about what she did or didn't want to do. She doesn't have perfectly groomed remarks that she's processed. She's processing in real time. And I think what we wanted to provide people with was yes, of course, we want to talk about all these interesting ideas. But you know, when we peel back the veneer of the political moment, it's - here's a young woman who is stepping out and taking a big step and knows that she's going to be attacked by everybody. She's gonna be attacked by her former employer, who thinks that she's betrayed them. She's gonna be attacked by the liberals who think she betrayed them by working in the first place. She's gonna be attacked by... So she got it from every direction yet she knew this was what she had to do. And she did it. And, you know, Brittany's gotten a lot of different, you know, she's been criticized by some and heralded whistleblower by others. But I think that it's important to remember that, to this day, only two people came forward in a meaningful way that are former members of Cambridge Analytica and gave evidence and testified in both Congress and Parliament. That's Chris Wylie and Brittany Kaiser. There are hundreds of people who work there, only two stepped forward. So I always tell people who want to criticize Brittany, you know, until you've stepped in the shoes of what it means to be a whistleblower, be careful how you judge those who are doing that work.

Matthew 38:23
I think that's a very good point. And also this point you made about, life's messy. This whole story is messy, isn't it? And as we've even this year, we found out with some findings, that I mean, really, it seems to me, as you say, you've captured a political, I think you've captured a lot of the theater around a political moment, in my own opinion. And I've also think, you know, it turns out that this Alexander Nix and all them were just really a bunch of blowhards, weren't they? Just exaggerating their abilities and what they had done at least in particular, with regards to the, you know, maybe the Trump campaign? I don't know, do you want to say anything about that? Because it just seems to me what, I mean, what's coming out of all this is that, it gets back to the point you were making about each one of us having our own sort of individual, our own sort of newspaper, news media that goes thrown in front of our eyes. And we've becoming so much polarized that, you know, I think it's hard for the average person to know what is really going on these days, and what is truth and what isn't.

Jehane Noujaim 39:45
I absolutely agree. We're in a Post-truth era, and I think it's one of the scariest problems that we're facing. We grew up with this in Egypt, where people watch lies being told on television by state media, where conspiracy theories were taken as fact, and to see this happening, and so people are not able to have a conversation about real facts, real truths. And watching this country, which we've always felt safe and watching this country go through this is very concerning.

Matthew 40:34
I think there's been some other docs that have come out recently about social media. And forget about people trying to hack or send us political messages. I mean, that's part of these algorithms anyway. That they're, if they don't have enough of our attention, they're going to send us something that's going to try to get our attention, if we haven't been on for a while. I mean, coming out of this, what is your view about big tech, the tech giants, the Facebooks, the Twitters, and others of the world?

Karim Amer 41:18
You know, I think that big tech has to ask itself, what they want their legacy to be in this world. You know, because I really think that that's all that's really going to motivate them at this point. Because you have few companies that are really controlled by few individuals, you know, their community make major decisions. And I think what worries me is that they have oftentimes been unable to take responsibility for the wreckage sites caused by their platforms and companies, you know. I think it's like, you know, it's very much to me, like the oil companies, that we saw 20 century defined by oil. In Middle East, we saw the consequences of that firsthand. I mean, our lives, many ways, one of the reasons we're sitting here, right now, I could draw you a line that points to oil and tell you how it shaped my entire story and identity today, right? So when you have a commodity, that is the most valuable commodity in the world, it affects the entire world. And if data has surpassed oil as the most important resource in the world, we can expect that at least what happened with oil will happen on the data front. Yet, because as Jehane was saying, we don't have these images of, you know, the spilling of the oil into the, you know. We don't have the image of the penguin soaked with oil, and melting ice caps, like we had with the environment, with the consequences on the environment that we saw from oil. Big tech has oftentimes gotten off scot free, because there is, you know, people are unwilling to accept that there is something that can really be influencing them. Because that goes against our inherent Western identity of free will that I am in control of my decisions. I'm not a persuadable. Those people are persuadable. No one tells me what to do. No one tells me what to think. Well, if no one tells you what to think, than the entire business model of advertising wouldn't exist, which happens to be the main business model that Facebook and Google control, right. I mean, they are in the business of predictive analytics, of predicting your behavior and selling that on the auction floor to anybody who wants it. And that isn't inherently an evil thing. But when it's left unchecked, when it's left unregulated, when it's left to this idea that somehow they're just going to do the right thing. That's just preposterous. I mean, it's just like, it goes against every tradition that we have learned, especially in the United States, about how to hold and help shape you know, major titans of power in a direction that does not completely obliterate our social contract. And I think that if the new social contract today I would argue is the user agreement then we need a new reclamation of that process to occur, where citizens, government and the tech companies can agree on what are the parameters of this relationship? What are we okay giving up? Do we have any control of it? Is my personal relationship data just like my likes of what articles I like, just like where my baby, is it all one fair game thing or can I set some gauges of I'm okay with this being available and I'm not okay with this being available. I want to know when I'm being targeted by political ad, who paid for it, and I want to have clarity, and I want to know when this is paid news or real news. These are all things that we deserve. And the idea that, you know, that we could just wait for big tech to do the right thing really troubles me, because I haven't seen them do that thus far. And I don't think they have the incentive structures to do so. So that's kind of the clarion call in this film and films that have come since, you know. And I think that we took that on first in a big way. And we're excited to see that now, other filmmakers are coming in and trying to tell that story in different ways. Because I think there's many stories here, you know. I think, we, because our work gravitates to the intersection of Zeitgeist and politics and society, you know, but that doesn't speak to everybody, right? For some people a personal story about bullying as a result of this may be far more impactful to getting into understanding or ...

Jehane Noujaim 46:10
The Social Dilemma, just a fantastic film...

Karim Amer 46:14
... which is more of a kind of anthropological topic story, but it's not really about characters, right? And that is extremely successful for a conversation. But I think it's many conversations. Because this isn't, what we're talking about isn't some kind of thing happening over there. This is about every single person who has a smartphone, on our planet, is part of this conversation. This is about the basic fundamental system of truth, and the validity of truth. And if you fragment that, right, our systems fall apart, you know. From democracy to the even functionality of the internet, right? Like the basis of the internet comes from a certification of validity, between, you know, this page that I've typed in is actually this page. If all of that starts to be balkanized, which is what's happening, right? I don't know how our open society survives. And I think what the big tech companies should ask themselves, is what responsibility do they have to the open society? Would they exist without these ideals, that came to us after the world burned itself to the stake in two great wars? We came out of those two great wars, with these ideals, and imperfect system of the United Nations, sure, but it's something. And these ideals are supposed to be things that we subscribe to. And would Silicon Valley be the refuge of the world's engineers, if those ideals weren't preserved? Or would they have been able to create these companies, if these ideals didn't get through? I challenge them and say, you're standing on the shoulders of these ideals, these ideas, yet, you see no responsibility to preserve that. Because your business model doesn't force you to. And, you know, your investors are making money. So who gives a shit?

Matthew 48:12
Well, yeah, and one last, I think the big thing is, it's people just don't even understand the technology or everything that's behind this, with these PhD in physics or designing. And I think it's almost comical, you see these hearings with the senators, and they're asking the most basic questions that, you know, all you have to do is Google and you can find the answers. I mean, they don't really, I think most of us, I'll put my hands up, don't really understand exactly what they are doing in many ways. But look, I'm conscious, we don't have much time with you. You need to get on to a, I think you have another call. So thank you so much for coming on. I really enjoyed this. And wish we had more time, we'll have to get you back on, if you're okay with that. But one of the other projects.

Karim Amer 49:03
If you have more questions, that's fine.

Matthew 49:05
What's that?

Karim Amer 49:06
If you have more questions, we can continue later.

Intro 49:10
Well, I'm gonna have to, because of the time difference, I'm gonna have to get in the studio rental. I will have to be going. But what I would say is, if you don't mind, we'd love to have you on another time. Just if you could quickly say, I think you made a really interesting point, because I did catch. This is the only body of work of yours I've seen. But just doing the research and there is, there is something that's a strand that runs through it all. And you were talking about hacking the mind. So do you want to talk a little, just quickly tell us about something that you have out now on HBO, it's The Vow. Just so our listeners can go and look for that.

Jehane Noujaim 49:51
Both Karim and I have been over the past years obsessed with the idea of hacking the mind. And I think we saw that in our work with The Great Hack. And what's out right now, that we worked on for several years, is called The Vow. And The Vow is very much about people that believed in change, dared to dream, went to a self help organization believing they could change their lives. And then many of them got involved in what the media has called a sex cult. The leader of the cult is Keith Ranieri, who has just been sentenced to 120 years in prison. But we make very big films. So we followed this process of the whistleblowers that came out and took the organization down. And we followed them over a number of years as they, you know, as they tried to make sense of what this experience was. And we're headed for a part two, which will show through the other perspective, and a number of other different players in the story. Because I think if you want to understand a real system of indoctrination, or a system of belief where you're, where an idea comes before everything else in your life, you need to understand that system from multiple angles. And it's really exciting when you get a project where both the theme of the project coincides with what you would like to do creatively. And we've always wanted to make a kind of Rashomon type project where you're able to see the same problem from a number of different angles. And in this case, it's crucial to see the situation from a number of different angles in order to understand the entire system. I think it gets set up an issue that, you know, that we all really need to talk about in our society. Which is, we've now been working with whistleblowers from a number of different places. We worked with Brittany Kaiser. We work with Mark Vicente, Bonnie Piesse, Sarah Edmondson in The Vow. And I think that what's been very difficult to see is how the media has treated those whistleblowers. When they come out, they are continually, in both cases, they are the few people to come out to speak about what has been happening, even though that process of speaking can be deeply personal, deeply embarrassing, shameful. And I believe as a society, we need to do everything that we can to support them. I'm watching as Mark Vicente, for example, is being attacked online. Because he was a part of NXIVM. But really, he was the first person to go to the FBI and to say, there's something that's going on here. Brittany Kaiser was somebody who was attacked in the media after she came out. Because people say, well, weren't you involved in this? Or weren't you involved in that? And absolutely, people should be coming forward and talking about their experience. But nobody that becomes a whistleblower comes from a situation where it's like the Girl Scouts, you know. I mean, it's, they come from complicated situations. And I feel like this is something that we really need to look at. Because there does need to be more support, I think in our culture, and in the media of people that dare to come out and talk about situations and not be trashed when they come out and speak.

Matthew 53:51
I'm glad you've said that, because that has been a common theme in some of the docs that we've had on this podcast, where whistleblowers in all kinds of walks of life and industries have been really pilloried. We even have, I have a friend actually, I was doing a 10-part podcast on something very related to what you're doing with The Vow, I would say is related. It's just come out in the last week or so for Radio 4, so you can hear it on the BBC site. It's called The Orgasm Cult, but it's about a wellness outfit that was quite well known. But the reason I bring that up.

Jehane Noujaim 54:26
It's getting investigated by the FBI right now?

Intro 54:28
Yeah, she's under, yeah, exactly, the FBI is on the case. And this friend of mine, I've only listened to first episode, but she had to say several times - these aren't their real identities. These are not the real voices. They're all afraid to say anything. Most of the people that were employees of this wellness company.

Karim Amer 54:53
You know, and I think the question we have to ask ourselves, especially in these very charged political times, is how do we believe that we are true custodians of an open society and all these ideals that we'd like to believe that we subscribed to, if we're not providing spaces for societal redemption? If we have this brazen attitude of casting away anybody who has ever changed political beliefs, or has been involved in something, and is now saying, I'm sorry that I was involved, if we continue that, then we're not creating any space for people to ever speak out against true power and justice that is happening continually in our society. And I think it's a very dangerous space we're entering into where we're eradicating the space for those who we need to come forward, to be able to come forward because they're kind of, you know, damned if they do and damned if they don't. And I think that that's a really, it's a problem that's getting more acute. And I think that as filmmakers who, you know, inhabit these spaces, it's a conversation that should be had more effectively. Cuz I think, to me, at least, I don't think we get through some of these world crisis's that face us moving forward, without really embracing radical empathy. And I don't think as liberals, we can really compete with the conservative agenda if we're not able to display that, you know. Conservatives always seem to eat our lunch and have the born again, space where anybody can kind of resurrect themselves. And we don't really have anything like that. And I think that we, if you look at any of the whistleblowers that have come out in meaningful ways, the amount of attack on them is just unbelievable. It's almost like it's become a competitive, fun thing to do, in our new digital square. It's like the new public square, let's go there and throw some tomatoes at this person just because we can, why not? I just don't think that that achieves much. I think that it's, you know, placating to it is quite unproductive.

Intro 57:19
All right, well, congratulations on that. And we look forward to seeing it. As you said, it's on HBO in the States. We think it's on Sky here in the UK, and we have listeners around the world. So just do a search for it and find where you can stream it. I just wanted to thank Karim and Jehane so much for coming on to the Factual America podcast. It's been a pleasure having you and chatting with you for these last 45 minutes or so. Directors and producers of The Great Hack, which is the main film we've been discussing today. And give a shout out to This Is Distorted studios in Leeds, England. Please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. And this is Factual America, signing off.

Factual America Outro 58:08
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo pictures specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the shownotes for more information about today's episode, our guests and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at Alamo pictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk

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