Air Jordan: A Cultural Phenomenon

Factual America

8 Sep

Written By

Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time. He may also be America's first black cultural icon, blazing a trail for other African American athletes like LeBron James.

Besides his performance on the court, Jordan rocketed to fame on the back of a clever and innovative marketing campaign to sell sneakers, and a shrewd business model that made him a billionaire.

However, has success come with a price? Well, Nike and Jordan have made billions of dollars. They have also created a shoe culture that see some misguided youth literally killing each other to get their hands on the latest pair of Air Jordans.

Yemi Bamiro and Will Thorne capture all of this in their recently released documentary One Man and His Shoes. We recently caught up with Yemi and Will from their homes in London and Berlin.

Time Stamps:

3:13 - The film we are talking about today – One Man And His Shoes.
6:10 - The film’s release.
7:50 - The synopsis of the film.
10:00 - What things were like at Nike before Michael Jordan’s sneaker deals.
13:07 - First clip: the state of the market before the Jordan phenomenon.
15:04 - The role of Sonny Vaccaro in creating Air Jordan.
19:10 - The people who are featured in the film.
21:16 - Second clip: the roots of making Michael Jordan a cultural icon.
24:11 - The role of Spike Lee in the Jordan phenomenon.
29:50 - How archive videos, graphics and animation are used in the film.
33:00 - The dark side of Air Jordan and an unfortunate legacy of the sneakers.
38:15 - How Air Jordan became the Ferrari of sneakers and a cultural currency.
44:35 - What attitude the filmmakers have towards all sides of the Air Jordan brand story.
50:58 - How long it took from the original idea to the complete documentary.
56:00 - Where the film is being distributed and shown.
1:00:01 - The perspective of Yemi and Will as UK filmmakers on a quintessential American story.
1:06:35 - Whether there were any reactions from Nike and Michael Jordan on the film.
1:09:28 - What is next for Yemi and Will as first-time filmmakers.
1:16:44 - How to get in touch with Yemi and Will.

Resources:

One Man And His Shoes (2020)
Break Em Films
Sole Man (2015)
Your Sneakers or Your Life by Rick Telander
This Is Distorted
Alamo Pictures

Transcript for Factual America Episode 27 - Air Jordan: A Cultural Phenomenon

Unknown Speaker 0:00
Hello, my name is Yemi Bamiro and I'm the director of One Man And His Shoes.

Unknown Speaker 0:05
Hi, I'm Will Thorne, and I'm the producer of One Man and His Shoes.

Unknown Speaker 0:13
What Michael Jordan was able to do was taken to that Babe Ruth place where basketball had become ingrained in the country's entire consciousness.

Unknown Speaker 0:24
There Jordan was something that transcended all these different borders that hadn't really been transcended before.

Unknown Speaker 0:32
The shoes gained very quickly a huge street value in American culture.

Unknown Speaker 0:37
And all sudden overnight, it was just like everybody wanted them.

Unknown Speaker 0:43
What the hell did Nike doing? We're now the 80s. And we're putting the black guy on television to sell shoes to white America,

Unknown Speaker 0:51
what he did in terms of global marketing and giving other black athletes a blueprint to do that was quite revolutionary.

Unknown Speaker 1:01
David Fox to his credit said, I got a name for this thing. It should be called Air Jordan.

Unknown Speaker 1:07
Michael always tells me it's the first and the last great idea. It was like what the Beatles with people screaming. And then you had Michael Jordan, you had Paul and John rolled into one. They'd hope to sell $3 million worth of shoes and they sold 126 million the first year.

Unknown Speaker 1:25
No one did for marketing with Nike and Mike would did for marketing. Nobody.

Unknown Speaker 1:31
Everything he would do was correlated to those shoes. And we bought into that because what was the tagline they were selling us.

Unknown Speaker 1:36
Is it the shoes? You said, Hey, man, I can't be Michael Jordan. But I can have this piece of what he represents.

Unknown Speaker 1:45
The demand of his product and product with his name on it, he reached a point where crimes will basically be committed.

Unknown Speaker 1:54
Nike, they have a responsibility in this and they have to do something and If nothing happens, we'll see more cases like this, you'll see more mothers and fathers like me.

Unknown Speaker 2:05
The real problem is they don't want to address it in a meaningful way. With the Air Jordans are in the image of Michael Jordan, shouldn't he have some say about what's going on?

Unknown Speaker 2:17
I am in no way, shape or form blaming Nike for my son's death. But they can say something.

Matthew 2:28
That is the trailer for the recently released documentary, One Man and His Shoes. And this is Factual America. Factual America is produced by Alamo Pictures a production company specializing in documentaries, television, and shorts about the USA for an international audience. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood, and every week we look at America through the lens of documentary filmmaking by interviewing filmmakers and experts on the American experience. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at Alamo Pictures to be the first to hear about new productions to find out where you can see our films and to connect with our team.

Michael Jordan is largely considered the greatest basketball player of all time. He could also be considered America's first black cultural icon, blazing a trail for other African American athletes like LeBron James. Besides his performance on the court, Jordan rocketed to fame on the back of a clever and innovative marketing campaign to sell sneakers, and a shrewd business model that made him a billionaire. However, has success come with a price? Well, Nike and Jordan have made billions of dollars they have also created a shoe culture that see some misguided youth literally killing each other to get their hands on the latest pair of Air Jordans. Me Ben Moreau and will Thorne capture all of this in their recently released documentary, one man and issues we recently caught up with me and will from their homes in London and Berlin, Yemi Bamiro and Will Thorne. Welcome to Factual America. Yemi how are things? Are you in London? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 4:14
yeah, well, I'm just outside London. I'm sort of near Kingston law place called servitor.

Matthew 4:22
I know servers and I've been here.

Unknown Speaker 4:23
Yeah, quite leafy. And yeah, I live I live in suburbs. Yeah, so not far from London, sort of like zone five and six or something.

Matthew 4:33
This is something that anyone from not from London's I can understand. But then yeah. But but having lived there many years, there is a there is a big difference. Yeah. And Will are you in Berlin of all places.

Unknown Speaker 4:47
Yeah. Berlin is actually a bit later here in London, which is why it's so dark.

Matthew 4:54
And for transparency sake, no pun intended. We've made Will switch rooms because of the because of sound issues so so the techno nightclub

Unknown Speaker 5:07
vibe

Matthew 5:09
what is kind of a Berlin scene? I think I how and but you guys keeping safe where you're at?

Unknown Speaker 5:16
Yeah, yeah real good. Um, yeah, I've got a three year old so I'm kind of got my hands full day to day with her so

Matthew 5:25
yeah, son. Well, hey, it's thanks for coming on to the podcast. Again as you've as listeners have heard and heard the trailer we're talking about the film one man and his shoes. Want to again thanks for coming on to the podcast is the first episode of season two and I want to welcome back our listeners to we've got a great lineup for this year but we've got a bit of unfinished business because we've been wanting to get you guys on for a while now. We were supposed to meet up in March in Austin, Texas at South by Southwest. And that didn't happen as we all know. It's been a crazy year. So maybe give us a little update. Me is The film premiered yet?

Unknown Speaker 6:10
Uh, technically Yes. Yeah. But it depends on what territory you're referring to. I think the, you know, we managed to sort of get a sale with the film. So we sold the TV rights device via TV. So it's gone out in America, and there's going to be a digital release of the film in August. And the film will be going playing in Australia and New Zealand, I think, this week. And so yeah, I it depends on which territory I think the European sort of premiere is going to be at the end of August.

Unknown Speaker 6:53
So I think technically it has sort of premiered.

Matthew 6:56
So for our listeners out there, we've we've jammies Just unveiled for you that we've actually has we are recording this in early August. We are releasing it in early September. But so it will be so by early September anyone listening to this podcast should be able to access the film is that would that be fair enough to say?

Unknown Speaker 7:16
Yeah, that'd be fair.

Matthew 7:18
Okay. Well it's great stuff I highly recommend it I thanks for the for me I got being based here in the UK I got a sneak peek and really enjoyed it and so thanks for that link. Yeah, me So for most of our listeners, they probably haven't seen it yet. Maybe you can give us a synopsis I know they've had the trailer they've pretty well aware. It's about Michael Jordan and, and related matters, but why don't you give us a little synopsis of what this about the film

Unknown Speaker 7:48
to film one man issues is about the phenomenon Air Jordan sneakers, sort of told by the men and women that were responsible for creating the phenomenon. I think For a long time, when I was thinking about this, this film, I was obsessed with how it happened. And you know, that who was responsible for making it happen, because these sneakers sort of, you know, they penetrated pop culture and they sort of like change the landscape of everything when it comes to sort of like athlete and brand endorsement deals. So I, for a long time was obsessed with, you know, how that happened, the sort of, you know, of the who was responsible in that and, you know, ever all the surrounding sort of, like elements that that went into sort of like, like, you know, signing Michael Jordan to this really lucrative, you know, endorsement deal at a time when athletes weren't really getting endorsement deals like that. So the film's sort of like details, you know, the cultural phenomenon, the sort of like the racial significance of this of the sneaker and sort of, you know, how African American You know, like, sort of change that brand into something that, you know, is something that we all know today. And then it's also about sort of, like the darker side of, you know, consumerism, and and sort of like it explores the, this idea of, you know, young kids in inner cities across the states, you know, have been getting killed, or, you know, like murdering other kids for these sneakers. And, yeah, I was just kind of, you know, really intrigued as to sort of like, why that story hadn't really been told before. You know, there's been lots of stories on like sneaker heads and sort of a sneaker culture, but nothing specifically about this shoe. So that's pretty much it in a nutshell. Okay. I mean,

Matthew 9:53
if we can maybe give our listeners a little bit of background I mean, what worth, we're talking obviously about the US, we're talking about 1980s America. We even go back and film actually looks 70s as well. But what were things like before Michael Jordan,

Unknown Speaker 10:16
in terms of like a sneaker in endorsement deals, they didn't really exist like the NBA had, you know that the secret of the NBA was, was Converse. Yeah. So Converse pretty much had that market like wrapped up. And they didn't really they weren't that adventurous when it came to marketing. The shoes weren't great. There was just sort of like, you know, shoes that all the NBA players sort of wore. And, you know, I think nyck were a running company. They were sort of like renowned for sort of like making running shoes, and it sort of came at a time when their business was doing too well, and they wanted to sort of, you know, branch into basketball. So they, you know, they they hired a scout, a guy called Sonny Vaccaro, who sort of had his ear to the ground in terms of sort of, like, you know, who were the young sort of like up and coming like college kids that, you know, we're gonna make it to the league. And this was all sort of like spearheaded by a guy called Rob Strasser, who was sort of like tasked with sort of like saving, essentially saving the business of, as far as Nike goes, you know, they were getting sort of like, trumped by sort of, like, added acid at that time and and sort of like Reebok rate was doing really good in America and Nike, sort of, like lost their way a little bit. So Rob Strasser was sort of like tasked with, you know, getting Nike into basketball. And yeah, like Michael Jordan was the guy that they sort of wanted to roll the dice And before that time that you know, there weren't that this didn't exist, I think Kareem Abdul Jabbar perhaps who was like signed to Adidas, you know, he had a pretty lucrative sort of deal at the time but I think it was annually about $100,000

Matthew 12:21
I think that brings us to a good point to watch a clip from the or listen to a clip from the film and it talks specifically exactly about this which is the sort of the pre Jordan era of shoot contracts including a Converse ad that is is Luton retrospect is so cheesy, but yet, it is known as nothing ironic about it. I mean, and I I'm of an age and grew up there. I remember this this stuff and it's quite, in retrospect, cringing, but But yeah, that that's what it was. That's life in America. So let's Let's listen to or or if you're on YouTube. But watch, watch that clip.

Unknown Speaker 13:06
Converse had all of our players, what they were not too keen on marketing. And then when Michael came along, Nike understood that this was an opportunity to use his connection to the league and his prowess as a basketball player as a stepping stone to to grow the industry.

Unknown Speaker 13:30
There are obviously NBA players who had shoe contracts, but that was all relatively restrained. You know, a lot of them were for nine or 10,000 Kareem was probably getting in the neighborhood of $100,000 a year.

Unknown Speaker 13:46
It was seen as something where athletes were necessarily shaping culture the way Sue's shape culture now. And so this idea that there's going to be this whole marketplace of athletes peddling Shoes was just kind of unheard of and to some degree considered to be ridiculous,

Unknown Speaker 14:06
pre Jordan it was, you know, here's our shoe. You're endorsing it. We'll pay you to do that. And that's basically where it ends. They would be in commercials. They would maybe get a shoe in their color but there was nothing special. It's reinforced for me and me. Hey, maybe it was made for frozen This must be magic.

Unknown Speaker 14:29
This shoe was made for

Unknown Speaker 14:32
Converse stock with a unique unit saddle designs.

Matthew 14:38
Yes, that wealth for yours truly. That's a walk down memory lane but I love the Clyde Frazier bit but but you you mentioned before me about Sonny Vaccaro, who's, he's? Well he's a big name on on many different ways in US basketball. But will I think you have a story about Sonny?

Unknown Speaker 15:03
Boy? Yeah, I was just gonna say, you know, Sonny was always in Yemen thinking like, you know, this is song we have to get for the story. You know, it's like a lot. A lot of the film kind of hangs on, you know, his participation in the whole story of Jordan really. But yeah, he wasn't the easiest guy to get hold of, I think. I don't know yet. We'll have to jump in. But maybe like two years. We're trying to chase him down trying to get him on camera.

Unknown Speaker 15:35
It took about two years to get sunny. And yeah, I'd say about Yeah, 18 months, two years. And I think it's funny because the first time I ever contacted him, he was like, yeah, that's fine. Like, you can come and I was like, what he's like, yeah, you could just come to my house. And we can do this. And I was like, that's way too easy. And then I think like, a few days later, he was just kind of like, Oh, he's Had he had a family issue. And he's like, we were kind of like sort this out another time. And I was just like, I was like, heartbroken at that. And then I think after that, it was like, literally we train every six months to sort of, you know, check in on him and see if he had sort of, you know, if he'd be willing to sort of go on camera, because I don't think he'd, I mean, he had his own documentary, ESPN did a 3430 on soul man. And, you know, he had that, but I don't think he'd ever been he'd never been in any sort of like documentary where he was a contributor where it wasn't solely about him. And obviously, I'm just some random guy from southeast London that sort of like, calls him up and say, do you want to be in this documentary? Like, we're making it independently, we've got no backing. I just kind of like, you know, but I think it was important to sort of get, you know, the surrounding cast on board, like we had Peter Moore pretty, you know, on board pretty early and and they still talk, you know, and we Got Judy Strasser, who's sort of like Rob stresses ex wife widow. You know, so we got Amanda, we got Jim Rizwan. And then these were sort of like key sort of like architects of this whole thing. Jim Rose was obviously sort of like the widening Kennedy executive that was, you know, the responsible for sort of like this spike and, and Mike adds, so I just kind of thought that, well, if we can get all of these, like amazing sort of, you know, these were sort of like, essentially his teammates when it came to sort of like building this thing. Then I kind of thought that we would stand a good chance to sort of like get in and but I think the person that helped me out was Ronan Lazenby, who's Michael Jordan's biographer. You know, his book is sort of like, it's like the Bible and Michael Jordan like it's called the life and it's like the most definitive book that you're ever read them, Jordan, and you know, he obviously interviewed Sonny a number of times for that book. I interviewed Roland quite early on in the process. I think in 2014, I interviewed him. And he was just like, so gracious and lovely. And, you know, he was like, you know, I help connect to connect you. And, you know, he helped me out massively and sort of, like, you know, getting to sunny. And I think it's, I think a lot of the time, it's about trust, you know, like, and just sort of, like knowing that, you know, not everybody you ask is going to be in a documentary, but you've sort of got to show a little bit of precip perseverance and sort of just know that, you know, there could be a slight chance that they might come around. And I think, like I said, we had sort of like, some of his key sort of, like, you know, colleagues, if you will, who were also, you know, responsible for creating this thing at that time. So, yeah, so in short, it took about two years but, you know, it was completely worth it because you know, him and his Laughter just been such huge supporters of this film. And yeah, they're truly lovely people.

Matthew 19:06
Well, and I think it's I mean, again, it's actually a question I was going to have later when we're talking more about the project, but I think this is appropriate time. I mean, you've talked about these people you've lined up. I mean, it's quite incredible. You've got David Stern, I mean, he's unfortunately, passed on, but you You got him on camera, you've got the one that struck me too, is especially another architect of this. whatever we want to call this, the, the thing that became Michael Jordan, the cultural icon is David Falk. And then all these people were willing, they were perfectly happy to go on camera and go on the record about about all this, weren't they?

Unknown Speaker 19:44
Yeah, I mean, I think that yeah, I think David Stern still sort of blows my mind that we managed to sort of like get in. Because Yeah, and he was really, really lovely. Like, the only request that they had is that we do it in the You're gonna be sort of like do it know his office, but he was like, you know, really gracious and really interesting and so nice. And he's David stone, you know, like, it was insane that he was sort of like, even given us the time of day, but there were no airs and graces. And it's the same with David folk. And I think these guys are sort of, you know, if we're calling them architects, this is their legacy. And I think, you know, we've all got egos. And I think whenever anybody's sort of, like, you know, can you talk about your legacy, of course, are talking about, you know, this thing that I helped create, because it's, you know, I'm proud of it. And I think I think there was a little bit of that involved. But, you know, there was no ego with any of these guys. I think they were just really proud. And, you know, they had stuff to say that was interesting. And they they believed in the project.

Matthew 20:49
Yeah, I think this is we've got a second clip that we're going to show that's not occurs in the film pretty soon after the first one. We've just seen where But it features David Fox certainly talking about what sort of the roots of making Michael Jordan a basically a marketing icon. So let's listen and or watch that clip now.

Unknown Speaker 21:14
By the end of year three, they'd hope to sell $3 million worth of shoes heading to four. That was their expectation. And they sold 120 6 million the first year

Unknown Speaker 21:24
where I think we made a mistake because we didn't put a cap on it. And we didn't say okay after so many thousands of pairs, the royalty rate goes down. The thinking was look at, he sold that many shoes great. As it turned out, that's what happened. They sold so many shoes, they didn't know what to do with it. And Michael made a lot of money.

Unknown Speaker 21:44
Now, if I would have known that, I probably asked him to pay him $1 a year and 5050 on the royalties. Now have we done that maybe they wouldn't push the line. The most important aspect of his deal. Wasn't the money or The Waltons. I fortunate and special In a million dollars in the first six months to promote it,

Unknown Speaker 22:02
I think we agree that we would pay him close to a million dollars. And that would put close to a million dollars in marketing.

Unknown Speaker 22:10
And then the fun stuff started.

Unknown Speaker 22:14
And the fun stuff was,

Unknown Speaker 22:16
how are we going to market this guy?

Unknown Speaker 22:18
we all talked about how he used to soar in the air.

Unknown Speaker 22:21
David Falk to his credit, said, I got a name for this thing. It should be called Air Jordan Bravo immediately wants to use the name. I said, Why don't we think about it for a little while there's an airline's called Air Jordans. But no prob was going with Air Jordan.

Unknown Speaker 22:36
Michael always tells me it's the first and the last great idea.

Unknown Speaker 22:41
After that, I went and saw him and Washington DC. in that conversation. He told me that he didn't want to wear red, white and black. And when I asked him, I said, well, what's the reason? He said they're the devil's colors. I said, Well, they're the Chicago Bulls color. So you better go talk to the guy that owns the Chicago Bulls because I can't change him. by me, he wanted to wear Carolina blue, which was the color of a school and I said, well make your pair you can wear them on Saturdays, but they're on red, white and black. You know, that's just the way it's got to be.

Matthew 23:12
Alright, so you've just we've just heard David fox said the best thing was is Michael Jordan says it's the only the best and only good decision or thing he did was, was on the marketing side. But sort of the rest is history. So Michael Jordan's a cultural icon and becomes the greatest of all time, Air Jordans pulling billions of dollars each year. I think the African American community sort of latches on to Air Jordans as a success story as a as one of their brands. People are saying he's Jordans a trailblazer in terms of marketing, what he's done, Trump blazing a trail for other African American athletes. So but you know, this I thought it was interesting point that we're not trying to give away way too much of the film, but this this role that spike lee played in all this, and maybe this wouldn't have even happened without Spike Lee, what do you think about that yummy? I think

Unknown Speaker 24:10
that i think that's I think Spike Lee is the genius of sort of like Nike, in terms of, you know, being, like, incredible at marketing. You know, they understood that there was no, there's no work in having this this slight incredible product, if, you know, you're not going to market it in a way that's going to appeal to young people. And, you know, they were doing that in the late 70s and early 80s. And I think, you know, they just were really good at connecting the dots. You know, they took this sort of like young African American, sort of, like indie filmmaker, and, you know, whose like, first film had sort of like resonated in New York. And then they thought, Well, you know, how about, we pair him with, you know, this sort of like rookie and who's got this this And, you know, it was a match made in heaven. I think those two things are just synonymous, you know. And I think those adverts are just genius. I you know, I think Jim Griswold talks a lot about how, you know, groundbreaking, those sort of those those ads and those commercials weren't and I don't think we've really seen anything like that, since I think everything has been sort of like an imitation of that in the kindest way, you know, but I think they were so groundbreaking. They were so funny. They had humor, you know, like, like, MJ didn't even speak on in those commercials. It was kind of like spike just doing all of it. And you know, that they were shot in black and white and, you know, you've never nothing could be marketed like that before. Like, you know, we spoke earlier about the converse ad. It was just, you know, just so on the on the head, it was so kind of like stero and sort of like a bit clear. Nicole, but I think these ads had humor. And that was, you know, that was because of spike and, you know, gender is wild. And then also just, you know, how courageous and sort of like adventurous Nike were with sort of like just taking a risk and just, you know, thinking to themselves, what the hell, like, what's the worst can go wrong, is kind of like know that the benchmark is here when it comes to sort of like sneaker sort of, like commercial. So, you know, we're not gonna, we can do a little bit better. So, I mean,

Matthew 26:32
as someone who went who lived through that era, and you've, you've done an amazing job capturing so there's like Geist of 1980s and 90s. America. I mean, maybe we'll have something to say on this. I don't know you guys. You use a lot of archival. I mean, in a great way. I think you use it very well. I mean, that's that's not cheap stuff to use. I imagine. How did you did you have any struggles with that?

Unknown Speaker 26:58
Yes, a lot of credit card bills.

Unknown Speaker 27:05
About the archive, but just a quick thing on Spike Lee, the thing I find interesting about Spike Lee, and kind of Jordan phenomenon is, I think that's one of the first things for me really was do the right thing. You know, I just remember so clearly, you know, back in the 80s, and when you first saw that film, and it was, you know, I think that was, you know, just sort of crystallized even for me is like, where, however old I was, like, you know, sort of a young teenager or whatever it was, yeah, it was actually I went back and saw a lot of like adverts, you know, kind of way after they'd, they'd even sort of been out. And, you know, just showed how spike kind of continue to sort of be in line with the brand and sort of helping push it and helping it to sort of being you know, the control conversation, I suppose. You know, my Jordans, all of that. You know, for me, that was kind of one of my entry points into, you know, this Jordan phenomenon. From a personal point of view, you know, when we kind of go off and make this film is because like, it's coming from a place of like, wow, this brand we love it. Well, yeah, for me, that was kind of, I knew about Jordans before that film, I suppose that's the kind of concrete memory. That's where I got on board. And, you know, that's where you kind of go right, I'm sold. Sadly, which is what happens to a lot of people, but um, yeah, there's a lot of a lot of archive in the film, which, you know, posed challenges, you know, right from the start. I mean, I could talk for hours about the challenges but we always knew were yummy was always quite clear from the start, look, you know, it's gonna have a bunch of archives because we're telling a story from you know, decades ago, but also, you know, the kind of animated style the way there was going to get brought together that Always in the thinking right from the start so we kind of knew we had a crutch of how to kind of make it Pacey make it entertaining, you know, women almost it's not just like a, you know, eating your greens on a history story, but yeah, that I mean, yeah, as you mentioned something even goes back to the 70s. And I mean, this is a kind of decades spanning documentary, which i think i think you know, yummy and micro gets good did a great job with not just kind of what you think is traditional archives, but you know, kind of everything, bringing it up into the present day, you know,

Matthew 29:36
you made a you made a good point there about even the little bit of animation with some of this, the stills and some of the archive. I thought that was, you know, well done. I mean, the intros amazing, I think.

Unknown Speaker 29:49
Yeah, well, you know, little shout out to wil new who is our graphics and animator. Yeah, I mean, he's, you know, like, one of the main sort of team members if you like, and, you know, he sort of added his gold dust as we call it all over the film, and yeah, and it helps bring stills alive, as you say archives super expensive. Excuse me. One way around that is to use stills and just put the steel on the screen a bit longer. Yeah, do something with it, you know. So that's kind of, you know, page one of, of using archive, you know, was our kind of secret weapon to bring that stuff alive and in the style of like, you say, the 80s and 90s this whole kind of endeavor, it's all in the DNA. Well, in the music, too, but yeah, but back to the even the,

Matthew 30:46
like you said, the graphics and design. I mean, I think it's not something that I hadn't even noticed, you know, a lack of archive video certainly there but I think it's, it's it's got a nice fast pace to it. I think it's It's, it's in it's in keeping with the subject matter, certainly up through that first, that first. Certainly that hour, but that's kind of pre staging a bit of a another question I'm going to ask you, I think, if you don't mind, this might be a little bit early, but I think this may not be a bad jumping off point to give listeners a little break. Go make a tea or coffee or something and then come back and listen to the second half here of our interview with filmmakers of one man and his shoes.

Unknown Speaker 31:35
You're listening to factual America, subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter at Alamo pictures to keep up to date with new releases for upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests and the team behind the production. Now back to factual America.

Matthew 31:54
Welcome back to factual America. I'm here with Yemi Bamiro, their director and Will Thorn producer of the recently released dock everywhere in the world now of one man and his shoes now we've been talking about the the the film and the creation of Michael Jordan the cultural icon and if you were to stop at about a minute 58 or so in the show you would be I don't think it would be unfair i think it's it's extremely entertaining It could also be something that a marketing Professor business or you know business Professor business school might show a class snippet you know bits of it a lot of discussions about business models and how how they achieve this you know, very cutting edge at for the time certainly marketing of a certainly then putting it in the historical context of an African American athlete but want to ask you this, this film, is it maybe it's an unfair to describe it this way, but to me, it seems to pivot quite not sure. But it does make a pivot about that that time. And was was that intentional? Because then we are going to talk about some of the what I will say is the sort of, like a better way of putting it darker side of this phenomenon.

Unknown Speaker 33:14
Yeah, it was intentional, I kind of feel that you couldn't, we couldn't pivot without sort of, you know, laying the groundwork as to what this phenomenon was, and is. And I think it's something that we grappled with for a long time, but we always knew that it was just part of the story. So as filmmakers, as journalists, it was sort of like our responsibility to sort of not whitewash history and sort of like not revise history, but you know, just tell it how it is like, I think the last the final act of the film is all fat. You know, I think you can sort of just google any of that stuff and you know, you will come across hundreds, if not thousands of stories about you know, young kids getting shot. Jordans, why they get to shop for Jordans is you know, that's a it's I think that's a bigger sort of like the bait that the film is not about. But, you know, unfortunately, there is a darker side to this phenomenon and it kind of like felt like our responsibility to sort of explore it because it's sort of, you know, um, you know, it's an unfortunate legacy of the of the of the sneaker.

Matthew 34:24
Yeah. I mean, I think, again, for me, personally, I mean, you've you've the, you know, it's 30 years, it's hard to believe it's been 30 years, but they've got the 1990 Rick telander OSI cover article. That's about the death of Michael Eugene Thomas. I came, you know, like seeing Google all this stuff. There's some debate about numbers, but I've seen figures that somewhere around potentially 1000 to 1200 kids a year or have lost lose their lives or victims of some crimes related to too To sneakers. I mean, what it I gathered this was really was this. Um, well before I get to that, I mean why why do kids kill it each other for for sneakers? Why is this happening?

Unknown Speaker 35:15
I think these sneakers are jewels, man, they're jewels in these communities and you know, they are they, they sort of like symbolize status, they symbolize a sort of like, an element of wealth. And, you know, like, I think when you have disenfranchised, you know, people in in certain communities that don't have a lot. I think that that stuff is just gonna happen, you know, and I think you also look at the way these shoes are marketed. You know, I think he, those, those early ads from the 80s are sort of like you know, it's the shoes, it's the shoe. There's gotta be the shoes. It's like You know, these things are just like, you know, life changing, you know, life changing sort of, like jewels. So I think it, I think that feeds into into a lot of it, you know, but then I think there's wider sort of like socio economics, you know, stuff about poverty stuff about, you know, disenfranchise, you know, members of certain communities, you know, you can talk about your sort of, like inequality, the wealth divide, like, you know, all of these really like meaty topics, but the film was never about that, you know, and I think that those things are a film in itself. We just wanted to basically, you know, convey that this stuff happens, and this is an unfortunate legacy of this sneaker. I think it would have been a bit weird to sort of, like tell the story of Air Jordans and not talk about that. Because every because everybody knows it like happens like you know, everyone knows that. It's still To this day, like, it's, you know, rappers talk about it in their songs. Like it's just part of the ether, joy. I mean, that Jordans are so precious. And so like, people regard them with so much, you know, with rose tinted glasses that this stuff just happens No.

Matthew 37:21
So I mean, you've basically said a number of cases but the whole the whole point of the film was to basically or or maybe me You can touch on this was that there's this obviously Air Jordans are part of hip hop culture all kinds of different you know, in rap songs, we've now got 30 more than 30 years worth of, of, of Air Jordan that have been come out. It was just a document this in sort of all in one place that this is this is how it happened. And this is the phenomenon as it stands now is that essentially what the purpose is? The film life.

Unknown Speaker 38:02
It won't. Yes. And I kind of feel I think the easiest way to think about it is this. I think, if you think about Air Jordans as the Ferrari, the Ferrari of sneakers, I wanted to know, how did Air Jordan become the Ferrari of sneaker? So I think that that didn't just happen. You know, there were lots of sort of, like moving parts that sort of like, led to that to that happening. It was it was perfect timing. It was sort of like 1980s America. You know, it was what was happening, man, it was sort of like Reagan's sort of like America, sort of, you know, it was like reaganomics. It was sort of like this big boom in America where it's kind of like everybody's out to get rich. And I think you had the emergence of like big brands, like McDonald's Chevrolet nyck. And, you know, it's understanding the time and sort of almost like the building blocks that lead to It's all happening. And I was interested in that, because I've never seen anything that I've done that I've never seen anything that looked forensically at, sort of, like the economics of Air Jordans, like, but not just the economics, but sort of, like the cultural currency of their Jordans. And sort of like how this penetrated pop culture and sort of like changed the world. And why, you know, 35 years on, we are still talking about this sneaker, after this guy retired, like over, you know, 15 years ago, like, why are we still having these conversations? And why hasn't anything Eclipse this sneaker, you know, and nothing has nothing to clip this sneaker, because he was the blueprint, you know, Nike relationship with Michael Jordan was the blueprint to everything. That's the reason why you have added s and David better. That's the reason why you have LeBron James and Nike. That's the reason why you have Steph Curry and Under Armour, you know, because it might be true Jordan, Nike was the blueprint to everything. And it's not just in sports, it's just across the board. You know, I think it's just kind of like let's take a pitch man to sort of like be the face of our brand. That didn't happen before Michael Jordan and Nike. So I was obsessed with the, you know, the forend. For I was obsessed with how that happened. Yeah.

Matthew 40:21
And I Well, I just add, I think your passion comes through. I'll call it passion instead of obsession, but the you in the film, you it's just for clarity sake, and I've got some journalism background. Those numbers I put out, I agree they are I I tried to look for confirmation of where these numbers come from. And I kept following link after link after link and couldn't actually find the source. So it's just a number that's been thrown out there. But I think as will very well put whatever the number is, it's There's no you guys, both of you have said, there's the facts. And it happened 30 years ago, and it's still happening. So this there's this issue with with the, with the with with Air Jordans. You focus on the Is there a reason you focused on the Joshua Woods case, in particular? And I think,

Unknown Speaker 41:20
yeah, I think that that case sort of was the one that traveled here. I think I remember reading that story in an English newspaper. It may have been the guardian. It may have been I don't know what I think it was the guardian. And I remember reading that thinking that's insane. That you know, because it wasn't just local. It wasn't just a story that happened in Houston. It was it wasn't just a story. It was a national it wasn't a story just happened in America is sort of like traveled and you know, I'm sitting in my room in southeast London reading about, you know, this 21 year old like, you No young person that sort of like, got murdered for buying a pair of like Air Jordans. So I think that's why it sort of resonated with me because, you know, I probably could have, you know, checked local news and found, you know, a number of stories, but it was the fact that, you know, journalists in a British newspaper, were writing about it, and I just happen to sort of like, come across it. And then I also think that, you know, a Daisy, Daisy Williams, I think, at the time when around the time that has some passed, she was very, she was very motivated, sort of, like, raise awareness about the fact that this had happened to her son, and that it was still happening that back then, and this wasn't a new phenomenon. This is, you know, this, you know, young people dying over Air Jordans wasn't anything new. And she was very quite vocal on that. She had sort of like, a Facebook page and she sort of like had like a little charity. raising awareness about sort of, you know, this sort of thing. So, I was Yeah, I was I kind of was, you know, I was kind of interested in her activism, so to speak. And then when and then when I spoke to her she was she was kind of really surprised that, you know, someone on this side of the world hadn't, you know, knew about the story. And yeah, it kind of what followed was sort of like three or four years of, you know, going back and forth to Houston to sort of like, talk to her and, you know, her just allowing us in basically

Matthew 43:40
as you as you point out, I mean, I think she's, she and others are quite eloquent. And I think he play this, as they would say here is I'm based in the UK with the straight bat. I think, you know, but you do pose or questions are posed about Nike and also Michael Jordan. About You know, I know Michael I think sent some Air Jordan 28 to Joshua Woods sister after the incident. I know he's in other cases is sent his condolences but um, is this something you guys have a position on about what you think Nike and Michael Jordan should be doing in these cases? Or did you just want to pose that out there to let us as an audience to kind of come up with their own conclusions?

Unknown Speaker 44:34
I think me personally, I, you know, I think as filmmakers, you know, we'll jump in if you think differently, but we were really passionate about not telling the viewer what to think, you know, we didn't want to spoon feed anybody and say, you know, this is what we think therefore, this is what you think. I think we were just interested in presenting the facts and sort of, you know, like, you know, giving The people in the film that, you know, these things happen to agency just to tell it how it is, you know, like Daisy said, what she said, like no one I didn't tell her what to say like, that's how she felt. And I think, yeah, and I think having, having spent time with people like Daisy, like we spent time with other sort of other parents who, unfortunately lost children over this thing. I think that the overriding thing that I took away from speaking to them is that, you know, they weren't necessarily blaming sort of like, Nike, but I think they wanted some acknowledgement that this has happened. I think that was the thing, you know, especially with Daisy, she just wanted acknowledgement. She just wanted them to sort of like just come out and just say that, you know, this is this is, you know, you don't condone this, and this shouldn't be happening. But I think, you know, I think she took there, perhaps silence as can Felicity and set in some respects. And and I think that's the thing that, you know that that upset her. But I think as far as we go as far as filmmakers, you know, it was really important that we were not spoon feed anyone and there was no agenda to this, you know, like our entry point into this film was just like we're just fans of, you know, this this time and this, this brand, and we just kind of like want to tell this story because we've never seen it before. But you know, as journalists, we can't ignore the fact that, you know, this is a footnote in this shoes legacy that we have to explore, because it's our responsibility as filmmakers to explore it. It's not our responsibility to tell viewers what to do, but we think that we should present the facts and leave it, you know, up to, you know, whoever sees the film to make to make up their own mind.

Unknown Speaker 46:54
Yeah, and the whole time. Excuse me. Yeah. And the whole time we were making the film you know, we're very were, you know, what we were doing, you know, was opening a can of worms. But yes, you know, we didn't set out to make a film that was trying to answer the can of worms. We were trying to make a make it all about Air Jordans. And you know, the Air Jordan Brand. And that comes with a side order of worms, you know, right, right. tell that story without sort of telling this side of it. For you, this is not a new story. This is you know, you can go and you know, there's people over the internet and they're kind of already arguing this thing. Will they criticize it? Or they're completely Jordan's or it's not? It's not the brand's fault or Canadian. All that stuff's there. And we kind of know Okay, well, you know, that's, that's, that's another field,

Matthew 47:49
I think. Right. Right. I mean, you know, I think that I think that's a very good point. I mean, I think

Unknown Speaker 47:57
the thing I was going to say, yeah, also, I think You know, we knew that was what we were doing. But I think you know, for me as well producer like these guys stare film, you know, and then when I watched it, it was it's very balanced. Obviously, there's going to be marketing there's going to be like I said to someone in HR about Air Jordans and endoscopy. You know, this all sounds sensationalized is really balanced especially when we get to that section. And I think as you say, we straight back we go here we go with pointed a camera, you know, what's going on in this decade right now? And then we discuss it afterwards with a bunch of those main players, you know, with those people that were there, and they get to say their piece. Yeah, and

Matthew 48:45
I think everyone all the talking heads everyone played at the same it's it was interesting was almost like many district bets. I felt like, you know, to use that analogy. I mean, because you guys were doing I mean, you're, I mean, it's it's certainly my own personal Taste in terms of documentary filmmaking, which is to document and let let the camera you know, let the actors say what they say or whatever, but not try to, like you say spoon feed to tell the viewers what they should think or conclusions they should draw. Even the but then the people you were interviewing, were saying similar things, I think whether it's rip telander, who's the young African American woman journalist who's, she's

Unknown Speaker 49:29
Jamil Hill.

Matthew 49:30
Yeah, she's actually Yeah, yeah, she was very good. You know, we know Michael Jordan's not Malcolm X, you know, I mean, kind of was one of the quotes. I think a lot of people said it. And I mean, you're well aware of it. I think probably some of our audience will be aware that. I mean, this has been going on I lived in North Carolina in the late 80s and early 90s. And I, even then, you know, anyone who had the smallest of causes were like, you You know what, I'm gonna write a letter to Michael Jordan and I'm gonna get him to, to you know, there's been this call. This is another episode that's a whole nother baby comes up. That's but you know what Michael Jordan does or doesn't do in terms of commenting on social what he's done he has usually commented on things. And there have been a lot of people have wanted him to, rightly or wrongly there I'm not sure but I mean in terms of so this is a big year for talks about Michael Jordan and I include yours as part of that. I mean in terms of this project, I mean, you kind of alluded to it I think you've tried or I think was it Roland Lazenby you were filming what 2014 or something. So, is this taken to get this project to this this point?

Unknown Speaker 50:58
Okay, so I see Thinking about this project in 2012, I remember really vividly. So it was November 2012. And I started thinking about, you know, I'd always wanted to make something long form and I started thinking about, you know, topics, broad stroke topics that I was interested in. And then, you know, initially this film was going to be about the phenomenon of sneakers, you know, it was going to be sort of like us about sneaker collectors and about Air Jordan collectors, but then I realized that that wasn't very interesting. And I was having these sort of, like, internal conversations with myself like late 2012, early 2013. And then I sort of said, Well, okay, I'm gonna spend I kind of, like, gave myself a free year plan. I said that in 2013, I was gonna, like, somehow make some sort of like, teaser to sort of like, you know, communicate This idea 2014 I was gonna sort of like spend the year like trying to raise some money to make it and 2015 we were going to make it. So I gave myself that, that three year plan at the end of 2012. And obviously, it didn't work out like that because we're in August 2020 and we're sitting here and the film's only just come out. But yeah, I mean, it was, you know, like, will will attest to this, like, this is a truly independent endeavor. Like, you know, I think he started making you know, we started making this film when I kind of like still documentary of this type one, you know, documentary wasn't rich like it was now, Joanne. Yeah. And I kind of filled it didn't really get it because we're British filmmakers, and we're in the UK and like, you want to tell this story that's essentially sort of a Like, you know, all set in America with American contributors about Michael Jordan, while you're making a story about Michael Jordan sneakers just make a story about Michael Jordan. Like, we heard everything. But I think that, you know, we always just believed in the story and, you know, we funded it ourselves. And the fact that, you know, all of our sort of, like contributors, all the actuality takes place in the States. You know, it was a long sort of, like, you know, it was a long undertaking, because, you know, it was, we were sort of, like funding this ourselves. So, I would say, you know, about seven years, it's sort of like, you know, we have been sort of, like chipping away at this thing. And, and sort of, you know, trying to get it made. And then, you know, the last and sort of like, comes along, and then everybody's like, oh, like, Michael Jordan. This is like really cool. Like, he's phenomenal. Like, there's 10 episodes on Netflix about Michael Jordan, and then we can just happened to have a finished documentary on you know, you know the phenomenon of Air Jordan sneakers, like it was almost like we planned it but we did it. So people should be

Matthew 54:12
beating a path to your door to get this doc shown and they I mean everyone's laughing yeah

Unknown Speaker 54:24
yeah well I don't know I leave it to work but I think in terms of like a territories that are going to see it you know, I think we haven't done badly in terms of who is going to get to see it.

Unknown Speaker 54:35
Yeah, I think I think just to pick up like so you know, obviously yummy been on this journey for seven years. Probably checked in the USA later. Yes. But yeah, we got remembers you put basically all your money or your time and spare time and effort and you somehow drag a documentary feature film. To existence over six years, seven years, and then you get into South by Southwest festival. Yeah. And then export your film on the hard drive a week before you can fly. You tell us you turn South by Southwest. Yes. is finished his comment and the editing. And you go Okay, we're running out of time. All right. Yeah. Go to Texas. And then they call you and say there's a pandemic went down. Yeah. I mean, I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think actually because of COVID. They bought the last answer. They actually brought it forward. Yeah. It was slated for later in the year and then down and they basically demanded, bring us the last dance. So just when we were basically curled up in a ball crying, thinking our big festival company have Finally, a moment in the sun. Yeah, it was a rover, we sort of this this came back on the scene and then yeah, obviously they're not that that made like feis in the US sort of common. Take a look at us and go, okay, perhaps we can put this out towards the end of our stance and we're kind of able to, that's how we kind of got us. And now we're actually going to be out releasing on across all digital on the 25th of August in the US. As Jamie said, the Australians picked up I think it goes out on their players. This Friday the sixth. We're actually believe it or not going to be in some cinemas in Holland, in Amsterdam. Oh, I think that's in seventh. Yeah. So yeah, and you know, we've got a great sales team. Can you film that? You know, Caroline, she's she's been out there. She's been she's the film's been on our radar for a long time. She's known as film and she's so sensitive. Starting here, she's been banging the drum. So yeah, like we're having various sort of, you know, meaningful talks with all the people you'd kind of want over and over the territory you know, so I think it's gonna be great thing we were talking about this the other day is, you know, we pitches film around, you know, we got custard pie people said no, it's a niche subject. Now who's gonna want to watch this? And it's like, the Middle East just Yeah, I think so. I think to get out there. I don't think it's niches every

Unknown Speaker 57:34
Yeah.

Matthew 57:39
I mean, it's hard to I mean, having seen it, it's hard to think of it as niche but but you know, it's it. You got it. It's an interesting journey you've guys have had because this, you know, your your journey started pre golden age of documentary. It's pre because I was even gonna ask you because you've done this. You've done this purely and dependently I think a lot of people now would be thinking, Oh, I'm going to try to, you know, like you say, get a sizzle get a teaser or something. Go around to Netflix or, or whoever. to pitch this idea. That might be the way you might have done things differently. I don't know. But this is this is like kind of old school. by weight way things are going now old school way of doing a documentary.

Unknown Speaker 58:29
Well, yeah. I mean, when you said about Joshua Woods case, one of one of the reasons obviously, you did come internationally. I remember getting a phone call off of me saying, Well, you know, I've just seen the story and, you know, just dropped Daisy Williams and email. She's She's come back and she said, it hasn't even gone to trial. And I was like, you gotta get on the plane up. Get ready. Let's go start filming. And actually, we cobbled together You know a little bit of money and you know, got him on a plane his camera off to go. And during that trip he actually interviewed I think you interviewed Roland you interview like a TED lander even that time I think four or five people and then did like a trip to DC those interviews are in the film.

Unknown Speaker 59:22
That's amazing.

Unknown Speaker 59:23
Yeah. And that was that was kind of you know, yummy it's on a taste of home self and when I got involved, you know, we're calling this expanded kind of, let's start shooting it. You know, let's at least start shooting it and many more. Maybe, but yeah, he went off and you know, did that stuff and got these interviews lasted the test of time and you know, really got good. It's that time round even though it was maybe like, we were thinking at that point. Well, worst case scenario, we're gonna have a really shit hot teaser here. banked Yeah, actually, we shot the film. You know, we got a lot of important interviews early on was great.

Matthew 1:00:06
You mean you alluded to just just a few moments ago I mean, people are like scratching their head these two British guys going around trying to document the one of the most quintessential American stories you can think of and and i will say I thought you I mean even that beginning intro bit where you've got the speeches of Reagan and Bush Senior going, you know, and you just kept any kind of timelines that the graphics and everything I mean, what how what Well, do you think there's been an advantage to having to being necessarily British but being not non American or an outsider and and how is it that you are the ones that have come to document this and not not someone else, not someone, maybe a US based?

Unknown Speaker 1:00:54
Well, this, this is the thing I've thought about this a lot and I think, I think It just always goes back to sort of the entry point being just like fandom. You know, like we remember sort of like that era. We remember, you know, Michael Jordan, the Chicago Bulls, we remember the fact that Michael Jordan was the most marketing man in sports history with all of his endorsements, not just Nike, you know, McDonald's Chevrolet, Gator, a, just everything. And I remember sort of like being in school, and just remember, and just, you know, just knowing that there was this guy that was just basically the God of basketball. And whenever I thought about the story, I just thought, like, why hasn't anyone told a story about how Air Jordans became this phenomenon? Like, why hasn't anyone told that story? And, you know, I, I was aware every year I would sort of like have this like anxiety that someone would like tell it, but like no one would really tell it in the way that You know, we had planned on telling it like, you know, which would be this blow by blow account, you know, that wasn't, you know, oversaturated with the sneakerhead thing, because obviously, that's a that's a huge thing. But I wanted sort of, you know, what was going on in society because all of these things were building blocks that fed in to how the phenomenon came to be, you can't really talk about, you know, the balls and sort of, like, you know, Jordan and sort of like night without talking about the context of the time. And then, you know, just because I've always been obsessed with America since I was sort of, like, you know, me and my sister grew up on a healthy dose of sort of, like American sort of my TV, kids. So I, you know, I kind of like had this, this, you know, this understanding of, you know, and the fandom of sort of, like us culture. And I think all of those things just like fed into, you know, the making of this film, so I don't know why someone else didn't tell this. story. But in terms of like our lens, in terms of my lens in telling this story, it's always come from a place of fandom. It's always come from a place of intrigue, it's always come from a place of fascination. It's always come from a place of sort of, like, appreciation, you know, of this, of this thing. And yeah, I just kind of thought, Well, if we can get, you know, the key architects like, you know, I want, you know, I want to talk to Jim as well. I think it's important that we talk to Sonny, it's important that we sort of like, you know, talk to these people that were in the room that can give us an understanding, you know, how this happened, because they were responsible for creating this phenomenon that has sort of lasted, you know, you know, this long and, and, and I think that was always the obsession just to sort of like get these men and women to sort of like, tell this story, because I always found this story fascinating. And I thought that other people would as well.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:00
Think?

Unknown Speaker 1:04:02
Oh, yeah, I mean, I do. I do think there is something in the fact that, you know, we're outsiders. Yeah. Well, I think there might there might be something that I don't know, I think, you know, as Jenny said, or as I said earlier, you know, Spike Lee and kind of do the right thing. And I think, yeah, we sort of grew up as fans of the brand. I think that's, again, that's maybe the kind of USP that we've got is that we sort of look in maybe in at this brand, or as something that was maybe important to us. And so it's this thing, you know, this is my kryptonite, it comes in a shoe box, you know, and it's like, yeah, so maybe that's, excuse me, and that essence of it is what kind of combines anyone who loves Air Jordan, or has that excitement or any, you know, that phenomenon, you know, that was affected by it or, you know, we can, that's that whole kind of thing, which is why it's always so skewed. When people say it's nice, because there's someone in Japan who's putting on Air Jordans that might just connect with immediately. And then that's that that was always the thing, I suppose. And, you know, this thing's kind of going around and it just is a thing, you know? I don't know, perhaps if you are from the US is just more of an intrinsic part of view. Like it's too obvious. I don't know. The entry point and then, you know, yeah, he's done a very good job of like you say, early with the Reagan, it becomes very layered. It becomes lots of different stories and you know, eras and this all kind of actually does feed into this one sort of brand.

Matthew 1:05:42
And I mean, just so because it's hard to believe that we're kind of coming towards the end of our time together. But you do say in the film you I think you did reach out to Nike and brand Jordan just to make that clear. For the audience that you did, did you get any reaction from them? I know they're not on camera.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:04
No, I think we just kind of like app, maybe a emails like, you know, phenom sort of like death is but I, you know, I think it goes back to sort of like what I said before, you know, you can not everyone you ask is always going to sort of like be in your documentary, for whatever reason. And I think, you know, I was really interested in speaking to, you know, because there are a few of the architects that were involved in all of this that still work at Nike, you know, and, and that's why I wanted to talk to them, but for whatever reason, we never heard back from them, and that and that's completely fine. I think that, you know, the men and women that we do have enough in the film, you know, were gracious enough to sort of like give us their time and sort of tell us their stories. And, you know, I thought I think I think it holds up.

Matthew 1:06:52
I don't know, go ahead.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:55
Yeah, I think and of course, like we had to you know, reach out as Journalists? Yeah, like I said, the film is balanced. So, of course, and you know, if my country didn't want me to do it right, you know? Yeah, like, obviously went down that route. But you weren't expecting a lot.

Matthew 1:07:17
No, and I think, but I just want to stress to the audience that you have an amazing cast of characters, I think on on the in the film in terms of people who talk to camera and about their experiences, whether they were observers of American culture of the marketing professor that you have. But even the the actual actors I mean, you have pretty much everyone who is involved except for maybe, Bob Knight, the owner of Nike. I mean, actually, they're going to, you know, on camera saying this is how it happened. This is how we created this thing. So I think

Unknown Speaker 1:07:58
Yeah, you Like, like with a lot of Doc's, you know, we did a lot of interviews, you know, we did a lot of interviews, we had to reshoot some, you know, there was like, a doctor, so kind of you're in the hands of God, right, you can turn up. And, you know, what you get is what you get, you know, these are real people, it's like they've had a bad morning, you might not get a great interview. And, you know, we had to do a lot to really, you know, get the gold that you see on screen, but we were very blessed. I think a lot of those main players, you know, they're all characters. They're all people that have, you know, been successful. You don't kind of be an exact night without pin me to go in and talk and hold your own. And I think, you know, a lot of these people. Yeah, it just shows you as well with docs. It's interesting, you know, if someone's engaging on screen, it can come a long way, you know, tie with the storytelling. So that that's great. But yeah, we were lucky to get some of these people On a good day, they were willing to kind of tell us some of the stories.

Matthew 1:09:04
Yeah. I mean, it's a question I'm going to ask you what you probably will probably have thought of. But given all that's been going on and what your focus has been, maybe you haven't given much thought to this, but what, what's next for both of you, in terms of now that you've been getting this released besides a well deserved break or rest or whatever, but what what do you have next on in line?

Unknown Speaker 1:09:28
I'm not sure I kind of feel that, you know, and will might be able to chime in on this. I think one of the reasons why we wanted to make this this this film, in addition to the fact that we were obsessed with the story is that, you know, essentially, we're first time filmmakers. And, you know, no one was ever going to give us X amount of money to sort of like go and make our first films and we sort of like made it. We made it ourselves. But we kind of want this film to sort of like be a calling card. It was always kind of, you know, we want to sort of like show people that we can coherently and sort of, like creatively tell a story. And it can stand up, you know, and we can do it independently. So, I think, you know, if we get an opportunity to make a second feature, that'd be incredible. And I think, you know, that, that kind of like, was the objective of making our first film, to sort of just kind of like, say, you know, Hello, we're here, we can, you know, we've got stories, we've got ideas, and we kind of want to do this because I think, you know, there's a, there's a, I think there's, you know, it's an interesting time in the world at the moment, you know, there is a sort of, like, there is a global reckoning and they're sort of, you know, like sectors and industries are sort of, like grappling with themselves into, in, in relation to sort of like, who does what, and who gets an opportunity to do what, and hopefully our film, you know, shows that you know, with a bit of hard graft with a bit of perseverance that You can sort of, you know, you can sort of achieve, you know, what we've achieved, and hopefully, it won't be as hard to sort of, like get the second one off the ground. Because, you know, we've we've truly paid our Jews making this over the last seven years. So, yeah, I think making a second film is a dream. And hopefully, we've done enough with this film to sort of not entice people just to prove to people that, you know, we can tell a story and we are competent filmmakers.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:32
Yeah, I think it's going to be quite exciting, the kind of, you know,

Unknown Speaker 1:11:36
the getting off about the second time and seeing, you know, how much ammo we've got, this time compared to last time, which was, which was more and, you know, we've been around a few ideas and you know, I've got a company breaking films, is this a real? This is the first film to be released. So you know, I think I'm pretty sure the first one out is, is, is doing well. So I'm very, you know, Phil, I got a lot of film last year, but you know, Doc stocks are just a different beast. And like I say, we've kind of talked about some ideas or maybe working on some treatments. And, you know, I think there's a kind of reason I mentioned in breaking films is, you know, my whole kind of remit is just to sort of make entertaining and just engaging films really interested into characters and interested in good stories. Like it's not rocket science, you know, and then you want something that's looks good and sounds good. And you know, kind of has an air of, you know, like yummies put a stamp on it and it kind of you know, you watch it go, Okay, this is a filmmakers film. There's an identity in the style. So, yeah, it'll be very, I mean, And just as a quick note, I mean, I kind of mentioned earlier. You know, we were racing to get from Tom for South by Southwest. I noticed ago now September is now August. I mean, we've only just caught a trainer a few weeks ago, we're kind of still we're gonna fire a little bit, which is rushing off the flames as we come back down, so right now, I mean, we're talking about we're going to go to Amsterdam, during this lockdown, maybe crazy thing to do, but yeah, I think we're just looking to kind of enjoy the release. Now. Like I say, it's gonna release in the US, you know, properly. It's gonna start going to these territories. Yeah, I think in the short term, it's just going to be good to see the film, get out there and start seeing reaction. You know, once the audience start watching it, you know, they start writing their own version of the movie, it becomes its own thing, you know? You know we've done our best we've made like our film and you know I'm just looking forward to it getting out there and seeing kind of how it does and I think after that, you know be interesting to go okay well it did this let's talk about maybe going off and making this because you know, or people will hopefully come to us going hey, we kind of like what you did we do things let's talk you know, that's the kind of basically Netflix if you're listening

Matthew 1:14:32
I think we many of us all know that that feeling I mean, I think I'm, I should just stay state one and once again, I mean, for our listeners, this is September so you all have should have access to this film and I highly recommend it. I think it's, I've watched it twice now. It was really enjoyed it. And I think it I think it tells me what strikes me because I know one of my gigs is doing This podcast. And what has struck me in the last few weeks. So she all that's going on, especially in the US, but worldwide and this year of this bizarre year that is 2020 is that there's a wealth of stories still to be told, you know, we all thought everything had been said before. But no, that's not true. In fact, there's so many stories to be told, and from unique voices that haven't been heard before. And I think that's the sort of democratization of filmmaking that is hopefully happening. I know, there's other issues and pressures. And, you know, we're not going to talk about distribution and some of the challenges there, but that's what's that's what struck me and why I think it's such a compelling, you know, medium right now. That, you know, we thought we knew about what happened in the 80s and the 90s. And actually, you know, in retrospect and you guys have shined a great light It, it made me rethink about, you know, a period of time that I lived through. I now saw a little bit a little differently than I had previously. And that goes with so many of the films that were have had on the podcast and season one and now are hoping to have in in season two so just want to thank you guys for for coming to coming on to factual America. Season Two first first episode. And just to say, I guess if people want to follow you there's we'll put links in the in the show notes, but what's the best way of keeping keeping a wrap on you guys?

Unknown Speaker 1:16:44
I mean, I have an Instagram, it's just yummy mirror. mirror and the same for Twitter as well. And yeah, all of my works on my website premier.com. So is that the

Matthew 1:16:58
site I've seen where you've got all You've went to the Bernabeu. Someone's got some shots of Yeah, that was me. Yeah. Yeah. Madrid was Yeah. Is that for another project?

Unknown Speaker 1:17:10
No, that was, um, that was a job that I did last year for. I did like a commercial. It was like a short branded film for Adidas in Real Madrid. So yeah, we sort of it was an insane job. To be fair, like, we went to sort of like el Classico. Like we're like, yeah, like pitchside saw Messi in the flesh. Like, it was. Yeah, it was unreal. But yeah, that was a really yeah, that was a really bizarre sort of like surreal job because you know, those guys are proper superstars. And yeah, we got to hang out with them for like, yeah, on and off like two weeks and sort of like make this film about. Yeah, their new their new kitten launch. Yeah. And then it's kind of like pretty cool because now they want that they just won the lead. That one right now. So, yeah, it sort of came full circle. But yeah, that was a cool G. Oh, excellent. Yeah. Everything's on

Unknown Speaker 1:18:07
that on my website.

Matthew 1:18:08
Okay. Excellent. And we'll, how can we keep

Unknown Speaker 1:18:12
keep track of where you can just I was just searching it I'm such a granddad

Matthew 1:18:20
Don't Don't worry we can do we'll put the links, you send us the links later and they'll be in the show notes. The

Unknown Speaker 1:18:26
funny thing is, I think it's just breaking films. I think

Unknown Speaker 1:18:29
I should have known anyway. Breaking films, website, also, mainly Instagram. I have got a Twitter, I probably should start using that bit more. Actually, as we'll be doing release. I think I'm gonna have to dive into all this stuff. But yeah, Instagram is probably the better one.

Matthew 1:18:46
Okay. All right. Well, thank you once again. It's been a pleasure having you on. remind everyone to film his one man and his shoes and we'll have links And things in the show notes in terms of how you can can find this film. So thank you yet yet again, Jimmy, row director and will Thorne, the producer of one man and his shoes. I want to send a shout out to this is distorted Studios here in Leeds, England. And please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is factual America signing off.

Unknown Speaker 1:19:31
You've been listening to factual America. This podcast is produced by Elmo pictures specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for international audiences. head on down to the shownotes for more information about today's episode, our guests and the team behind the podcast, subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at alamopictures, be the first to hear about new productions festival showing our films and to connect with our team. Our homepage Is alamopictures.co.uk

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Air Jordan: A Cultural Phenomenon

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Air Jordan: A Cultural Phenomenon

Time Stamps:

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Connect with Yemi Bamiro:

Connect with Will Thorne:

Other Factual America Episodes You Might Enjoy:

Interesting Reading from Factual America:

Transcript for Factual America Episode 27 - Air Jordan: A Cultural Phenomenon

Imagining the Indian: De-Mascoting Native Americans in Sports

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