Some Kind of Heaven: Inside The Villages, Disneyland for Retirees

Factual America

18 May

Written By

The Villages is a self-contained retirement community or as some would put it a self contained utopia located in central Florida and is one of America’s largest retirement communities. Often referred to as a “Disneyland for Retirees,” it is home to over 130,000 seniors and aging baby boomers. The Villages, one of America's largest retirement community, offers residents a utopian version of a bygone America: wide, safe streets, perfectly manicured lawns, palm tree lined fantasyland, and countless activities all in the service of enjoying the golden years.

Directed by filmmaker Lance Oppenheim and shot by cinematographer David Bolen, Some Kind of Heaven (2020) reveals cracks in The Villages' facade and explores life inside its palm-tree-lined streets, tender and surreal look, while challenging stereotypes around ageing.

The film follows four residents for whom The Villages is not living up to its reputation. By aiming the camera lens at this usually closed-off community, Lance captures what The Villages is really like. What type of people live in these retirement villages? Is it really a Community’s pre-packaged paradise as they say? How did residents respond to Lance filming there? And why did Lance choose to delve into this bizarre world? Did the residents truly find happiness in life’s final act?

Some Kind of Heaven full movie is available on demand from Amazon prime video in the UK from May 14th 2021.

“There’s something beautiful to the idea that no matter how old you get, you are still becoming.” - Lance Oppenheim

Time Stamps:

00:09 - The trailer for Some Kind of Heaven.
03:35 - Where the film is available to watch.
05:09 - What Some Kind of Heaven is about.
07:13 - What The Villages in Florida is like and some of its bizarre intricacies.
10:46 - The uniqueness of The Villages and how they’ve succeeded in "Disneyfying" death.
14:59 - The stereotypical type of person that lives at The Villages.
19:00 - How the residents responded to Lance coming to film their lives.
21:54 - How Lance found the four protagonists of the film.
26:22 - How representative the protagonists are of The Villages as a whole.
31:22 - Why Lance made this film.
33:05 - How difficult it was to get access to The Villages.
38:46 - The artistic nature of the film, and the importance of the film's music.
44:03 - The editor's influence in the making of the film.
45:41 - How the film evolved from a college short to a feature-length documentary.
48:52 - Advice for young filmmakers on how to pitch their ideas.
54:07 - What’s next for Lance.

Resources:

Watch Some Kind of Heaven full movie (2020)
The Villages
Magnolia Pictures
Alamo Pictures
18 Best Movies to Watch on Netflix in 2022
Some Kind of Heaven Amazon Prime

Transcript for Factual America Episode 61 - Some Kind of Heaven: Inside The Villages, Disneyland for Retirees

Lance Oppenheim 00:00
Hi, my name is Lance Oppenheim, I'm the director of Some Kind of Heaven, and thank you for having me today.

Speaker 1 00:10
Hi, my name's Elaine.

Speaker 2 00:12
Hi, my name is Elaine.

Speaker 3 00:14
Hi, my name is Elaine.

Speakers 00:15
Elaine is our name!

Speaker 4 00:17
The Villages is like being on vacation every day.

Speaker 5 00:25
The Disney World for retirees.

Speaker 6 00:29
It is like going off to college.

Speaker 7 00:32
You come here to live you don't come here to pass away.

Speaker 8 00:36
There is no place like this. This is Nirvana.

Speaker 9 00:43
I'm just saying for me, it hasn't been the fantasy land that I thought it would be; you know, for reasons that are some are true to my own self. You know? Oh my God!

Speaker 10 00:59
I think that when you live in The Villages, you're acting the part.

Speaker 11 01:03
Surely, everybody's life is not perfect.

Speaker 12 01:09
Now that we're in The Villages, Reggie's sense of reality has become even more out there.

Speaker 13 01:17
I came down here to meet a nice looking lady; like, somebody that I be not embarrassed to be seen on the street with. You need a handyman don't you?

Speaker 14 01:25
I don't care.

Speaker 15 01:28
Who am I?

Speaker 16 01:30
You got the answer.

Speaker 17 01:31
No, I don't.

Speaker 16 01:32
They're in you.

Speaker 15 01:33
Who am I?

Speaker 17 01:35
Somebody found me out. I got in trouble with the law last night.

Speaker 18 01:38
You're charged with possession of cocaine.

Speaker 15 01:41
Who am I??

Speaker 16 01:44
You make me sick.

Speaker 17 01:45
I think I lose no matter what you do.

Speaker 18 01:48
If you want to avoid trouble, don't come here.

Speaker 19 01:52
There has to be more than just surviving.

Speaker 20 01:56
It's a new awakening.

Speaker 22 01:59
This is the last hurrah. I'm not ready to call it quits.

Speaker 23 02:04
We have too much fun down here, you know.

Matthew 02:15
That is a trailer from the documentary Some Kind of Heaven. And this is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo Pictures, an Austin and London based production company making documentaries about America for international audiences. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood, and today we're catching up with one of the leading up-and-coming filmmakers in the documentary world, Lance Oppenheim. Lance made his feature directorial debut last year with Some Kind of Heaven, but many of you will have been aware of his work for a while, at least, through his delightful shorts on New York Times' Op-Docs. So, without further ado, Lance, welcome to Factual America, how are things with you?

Lance Oppenheim 02:54
I am good. And thank you for - I wish I could shrink you and put you in my pocket. If you were hyping me up all the time, that would be making me feel a lot better about my life. So, thank you. It's very generous of you.

Matthew 03:07
Well, likewise, I was telling someone, like, I think we all feel like we need to have a documentary director following us around through our lives, you know; so, I'd love for you to be able to do that for me. Again, the feature is Some Kind of Heaven: premiered at Sundance. I know Magnolia Pictures and Dogwoof here in the UK have picked it up. But has it had a wider release yet? Where can people see this?

Lance Oppenheim 03:35
The film is actually going to be available, I believe anywhere Hulu is, on May 15. So, that will be hopefully a larger release. And I know we're doing - I think there's different partners we have in Australia. I think Madman is or someone; you know, I'm not totally sure. But I know that there are other regions of the planet that the movie will be available on. But it will be available to stream on May 15, via Hulu.

Matthew 04:07
Okay, well, that's good to know. And good to hear. And people if you're not in access to Hulu then as we always suggest, just Google it and I'm sure you'll find it. I want to congratulate you on your directorial debut in terms of a feature and the distribution deals and the acclaim the film has gotten and been wanting to have you on for a little while. I watched - what was it? Well, I've seen your shorts on Op-Docs a few years ago, and was very impressed with The Happiest Guy in the World, was it? I think that's one of my favorites, actually. But we're here to talk about Some Kind of Heaven, mostly; for those who haven't seen it, most people will not have seen it since it's not coming out to wider release till the 15th: What is Some Kind of Heaven all about?

Lance Oppenheim 05:05
Well, Some Kind of Heaven's about a, I guess ostensibly, it's a portrait of a place. It's a portrait of a place called The Villages, Florida, the world's largest, and for my money's worth, probably the strangest retirement community; a place that's kind of like a Truman Show in real life, designed to simulate the good old days, and bring baby boomers back to a time they were familiar with from their youth. But the movie does some other things, too. It's a portrait of also this kind of - an existential condition, in what happens when you move into what may seem like a dream or a fantasy, and that dream becomes a nightmare. And it's a portrait of three residents, and I guess you'd say one interloper who are on the margins of the fantasy. And as the movie goes on, it becomes more of a portrait of three, four people, real people going through real problems against the backdrop of a very strange, surreal place. But um, yeah, it's always hard to give a logline.

Matthew 06:17
Yeah, or synopsis, even. I mean, I think well, let's start with the place. Let's start with The Villages. I think it's been referred to as - I don't know if this is so accurate, actually - but Disneyland for retirees. Struck me as '50 to '60s suburbia meets vacation resort meets Truman Show, as you've already said; reminded me a bit of Edward Scissorhands. It, like you already said, it even gets mentioned in political discussions. I mean, I remember watching the 2020 presidential race and they're talking about The Villages. How is that going to impact the result in Florida, for instance? So, I mean, as you describe it as the strangest retirement center in your estimation, but I mean, how did you - I mean, maybe give people a little, better sense of what this place is like, it just seems a bit surreal.

Lance Oppenheim 07:13
Yeah, surreal is a good word for it. I mean, I, you know, I guess I - my familiarity with everything around that world will be - is different than I imagine viewers in the UK and across the planet that aren't from America, or even from Florida, would have, but I grew up knowing of The Villages. From the time I was, you know, in the seventh grade, at the time I was 12 years old. I knew of The Villages because I am from Florida. And on a slow news day in Florida, anytime, you know, there is nothing really to report they would recirculate news that came from Central Florida where The Villages is, and they would treat The Villages more or less as the end of a punch line. And I when I first learned of it, I had known of it as a very large retirement community. But I'd also known of it for sort of the hedonistic practices, and activities and pursuits that the different residents of the community lived. And that was, I think, really what made the place become a tall tale in Florida. And as - if you know anything about Florida, it takes a lot to become a tall tale, because things are very insane, as is there. So, growing up, there were all kinds of stories about, you know, a rumor, a tall tale about the place having the - about the community having one of the highest rates of STDs in Florida, which I think was later debunked, but stories like that were onset by other stories about residents having sex in public and being arrested. And anyway, it was a - if you're thinking about retirement, USA, a retirement Mecca, where the country goes to this would be it, it's the fastest growing, you know, it's one of the fastest growing cities in America, which is totally bonkers. And one of the things that I think drew me back to making a film about the place, because it became more of a phenomenon that so many folks were moving there, and isolating themselves from, you know, I guess what one would maybe say is like an everyday reality. But it also is - the last time I checked - it is the largest retirement community on the planet. So, the implications of this world, which again, is designed, you know, is artificially constructed to remind people of an America that once existed, or maybe an America that never really was. Those were the things that jumped out to me as not only being very cinematic to explore, but as a setting, as a subject, as a, again, as a phenomenon of why people choose to live, people who are over the age of 50 or 60, why they choose to isolate themselves and, you know, in a cocoon of a sort; that popped out at me for sure.

Matthew 10:07
Yeah. I mean, it's very interesting, as you say, it's this sort of artificial construct, they have their own made up history for lack of a way, putting it - even founding dates on buildings that are nonsensical, right? I mean, you've got - seems to be sealed off from the rest of the world. There's no children. It's like whatever that kingdom in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, I mean, it's like there's, you know, own news network with hard hitting news that we see. I mean, I guess you've already answered but have you ever seen anything like this or replicated anywhere else? This seems extremely unique.

Lance Oppenheim 10:47
Well, I mean, not with my own eyes. But I think one of the things that also drew me just to wanting to make something about the place is, I feel like growing up in Florida, a very different form of Floridian suburbanisms, I guess; I don't know; I grew up very far away from things in Florida. And I feel like the way I began to relate to the world is watching movies and some of my favorite movies, I felt like were reflections of where I grew up; you know, Edward Scissorhands being one of them. But even looking at Blue Velvet. And I think I grew up in a very conservative part of Florida to some degree. And, you know, images out of, like, the Ronald Reagan Morning in America, presidential advertisement, also looks not only like The Villages, but also, you know, a community that I used to grow up in - just the white picket fences. And obviously, as art imitates life, and life imitates art, it's - no matter how or where you move, no matter how much manicuring you do to your backyard or your front yard, your problems persist. And there is something like as - going back to, like, Nicholas Ray's Bigger Than Life. Or even Todd Haynes' Safe, just portraits of suburban - of suburbia, of suburban sprawl that can become hellish and poisonous. All those things came to my mind when I first saw The Villages. And when I, you know, when I was doing my research, I just was kind of fascinated that so many of the images in there, you know, in one of their infomercials was titled 'Come Visit'. It looks just like all the images that I'm talking about. It seems like if they weren't aware of these movies, it would have been mind boggling. I really do think no matter how you feel about the community as a construct, and the fact that it exists, they did do something quite impressive that I don't think anyone else has really cracked, at least in the States here, which is to create, you know, which is to Disneyfy death; Disneyfy the experience of retiring, creating a massive, self-contained city that you never have to leave. That all feels very specific, very distinct, very much like its own place. So, a lot of those things were just fascinating to me. And as someone you know, most of my work concerns I think, you know, kind of people, permanent residents of impermanent semi-permanent, temporary, liminal spaces. I was just fascinated by this. I made the movie about the man living on a cruise ship, which was another form of a person escaping reality into a kind of a, you know, a city or a realm they control that is completely defined by id and pleasure. And I saw this story in this setting as a natural extension of where I was going and knowing that I wanted to keep going in that direction.

Matthew 13:56
I think, yeah, there's some great imagery in there and also your short, that's recently gone on Op-Docs, The Paradise Next Door, and the aerial photos, probably drone, whatever, but you know, just that layout of almost stereotypical America, suburbia, that you and I, separated by generation and grew up probably about 1015 miles apart, but when I saw Edward Scissorhands as a young man - back when I was a young man - I think it was, like, I would turn to people that's exactly where I grew up, you know, so there is this uniqueness to Florida, but there's this almost universality at least in terms of America's suburbia, but how would you describe the denizens of The Villages? I mean, backgrounds, wealth, attitudes? I guess there's probably a stereotype and then there's - did you find that reality to be much different? Or is there a variety of backgrounds that we're talking about here?

Lance Oppenheim 14:59
I mean, you know, as any city knows, I mean, there's about 140,000 people there now, I believe, so it would be hard to generalize if there was one specific person. I mean, I think that the stereotype it has and the reputation it has in America, as a result of all the events of, you know, leading up to the 2020 election, including this infamous video of a golf cart rally, golf cart parades, and President Trump - no longer President, thank God, but Trump's name. And there was a man who was a Trump supporter who shouted 'White Power' it went viral. And then it cast a long shadow, I think on every resident of The Villages, and also how we view The Villages. It no longer became a, you know, I think its status, I think, in the way I was interested in looking at it as this phenomenon of people isolating themselves, bubbling, you know, joining the ranks or leaving our society to join the ranks of their own. A lot of those things I think became secondary. And I think most of the primary focus surrounding The Villages is exactly what you will look up if you if you Google it, I think places like the Daily Mail love talking about how it's a home for, you know, for the most advocate, vocal supporters of Trump. And to some degree, I mean, I think that I don't think that always was what it is, I do think there is a large, you know, it's a 98.3%, white, very conservative, very homogenous population. Obviously, there are many people there, the folks in this film, you know, are not Trump supporters, not that that really motivated my, you know, my selection or my decision to follow them. To me, I was less interested in the binaries of conservative or Democrat; I think the things I was much more interested in is, again, this is a thing that is happening in our country, that we are losing a giant section of our population to this age segregated fantasy world. And what is that experience like? What is that existential condition like? What is that? What does it mean to exist there and not feel at home? Those, especially when time is so short, and you're in your eighth chapter, your eighth decade of navigating this planet? So, those questions to me were much more pertinent and interesting. And as a filmmaker, who I tried to resist falling under those binaries of, you know, conservative or Democrat, or despite being, you know, I would consider myself a very liberal person, but also, you know, looking at The Villages, is it good, or is it bad? I mean, I don't care about those things. I'm much more interested in exploring the gray area and doing what I think cinema can do best, which is giving you a very detailed, very rich, expressive exploration of emotions of people, of ideas. I think, you know, so much journalism is so concentrated in the other side of things that even if I were to make the movie today, I'm sure I would slip in different details in the interstitial moments, but I think the main focus would remain the same.

Matthew 18:23
Well, and I think that's, I think you've achieved that. And I think it's very much appreciated. I mean, how did you relate with them? I mean, you're separated by probably at least 50 years, I think with many of your subjects. But yet, I mean, what struck me is, least the ones you concentrate on, we'll talk more about them shortly. They're struggling with the same issues we all are, aren't they; I mean, the meaning of life, how to be happy, searching for love. Maybe you can say a little something about how, you know, how did they react to a young filmmaker? I mean, how did this, how did you find that?

Lance Oppenheim 19:00
Well, I mean, I think part of this special thing that happened while making this movie, and it happened very early in my, you know, in my travels there. I was the very age, I think that a lot of people who were moving there, were trying to return back to, you know, there was this Peter Pan syndrome that everyone goes through there, and it's not, you know, and in my own life, I was undergoing my own version of the Peter Pan syndrome. I was about to graduate from college, this was my thesis in school, I was terrified of a lot of things. I was questioning the nature of, you know, marriage more generally within my family and then also my - not that I was planning on getting married to my girlfriend at the time, but I ended a very intense and very serious relationship, and I had a lot of that thoughts on my mind. So, I got there and I think there was a level to which this mutual, I don't know, curiosity, I think was piqued by my age and also by, you know, but by the fact that most people were open to connecting with me and chatting with me not as someone who looked like their grandson, but someone who, in some ways embodied the same spirit that they were having, especially the folks that are at the center of this film. And as a result, I mean, I think I'm happy you're saying what you're saying as I, you know, I don't even see this necessarily as a one to one portrait of The Villages; I see this as more, you know, I see this as a very different, very specific portrait of what it means to grow old. And the thing that I really tried to do when making this film was I didn't want the movie to feel like it was a film about older people, I wanted it to feel like it was a film about people, you know, a film that could have been made by my favorite filmmakers, like Hal Ashby, or, you know, Robert Altman, or any of, you know, felt like a classic Hollywood kind of ensemble piece, that was dealing with ideas and topics and, you know, styles that we normally don't see in documentaries. And that felt, you know, were completely evolved from the setting.

Matthew 21:26
Well, I think - I also think it would be great to, maybe let's focus a little bit on these four individuals that you do focus on, and say a little bit - something about them. How did you hook up with Barbara and Dennis and Reggie and Anne? I mean, did you have a broad - you cast your net wide, and then decide, after being there for a while? No, these are the four I'm going to focus on? Or how did that work out?

Lance Oppenheim 21:54
It was an evolution, for sure. I mean, I met Barbara funnily enough, my first night in The Villages. I went to the acting club, which, you know, I figured if I was gonna find anyone that would not be afraid of being on camera, I would find them there. And she was one of the few people who wasn't participating in the club, she was just observing. And I, you know, I gave a little speech of my own, I went up after everyone was finishing their performances. And I just introduced myself and said, I was there and wanted to make a film, I wasn't sure what the film was going to be about. I was in college, and I wanted to get to know people. And Barbara came up to me after I, you know, at the end of the class, and she just, I could immediately just tell the amount of - just the wonderful expression on her face and how in tune I think with her emotions she is and I think we really just gravitated towards each other. She and I were kind of connected on a very fundamental wavelength that I don't think I really saw in other people. And probably other people didn't see me at the time. But each person - I mean, Dennis, Reggie, Anne; I mean, it was all, like, there felt like there was that level of knowing that they all - that we all needed to make a film together. But it did take quite a while to figure out what that film was going to be and how it was going to happen. I mean, I was following several other people. And as you mentioned, I released another kind of a short film with the Op-Docs, The New York Times, that has some of the stories that didn't make it into this, into the feature. But I think, you know, for a while I was following those other stories, the sinkholes that were bubbling up and sort of the ecological destruction that The Villages was causing the neighboring, you know, communities. But as I kept going deeper and deeper with Barbara and Reggie and Dennis, I think what slowly came to my mind was something that also my editor Daniel Garber informed me of, but that this was really a film about relationships to a certain degree. And obviously, there's a lot of things going on. But we're looking at this community from the lens and the vantage point of, you know, a married couple who is dealing with a very specific kind of dysfunction.

Matthew 24:15
They're kind of going through a mid - so, we won't do it because most people haven't seen it, so we won't do any spoilers, but I mean, it does feel like they're going through a midlife crisis, except they're in their, I gather, they're in their 70s. But yeah, its kind of a...

Lance Oppenheim 24:28
You know, you're landing on something, because exactly, the thing I was gonna say is that I wanted to feel like, you know, the spirit of, like, a john Hughes movie, but for this age group, I mean, I feel like that was a big broad ambition I had and when I look at it now, I probably - I don't think it has much to do with John Hughes. But I like this idea that, like, the coming of age story, can very much apply to a character like Dennis, you know, a person who is 83 years old and is still living his life in the exact same way as he was when he was my age, but he is, you know, he does grow over the course of the film and I think your understanding and your experience the way one relates with him on screen is - also grows just kind of mirroring the same way, I think I felt about him and I thought about the place for that matter too as a whole.

Matthew 25:20
I mean, fair enough to describe Dennis, I guess, as a Lothario; I mean, just so people know what we're dealing with.

Lance Oppenheim 25:26
I feel, like an attempted Lothario but failed.

Matthew 25:29
Attempted!

Lance Oppenheim 25:29
Yeah. A failed gigolo. Yeah.

Matthew 25:34
And there's, I mean, I won't share it, because there is something else in there that just surprised me but you've got it in the film. And then you've got Barbara, who just seems as you said, you connected with her, and she just seems a little out of place here, doesn't she? I mean, she's - yeah, I mean, it's a very - she's still working, she's bit more serious. I mean, I don't know, it's an interesting one to kind of a counterpoint. I guess that gets us the point of how representative are these people of The Villages, or, as maybe you've probably have already basically have said, it's hard to really generalize and stereotype that each one of these is their own individual, and they just happen to be at The Villages.

Lance Oppenheim 26:21
I mean, I don't think, I wouldn't say that these four people are representative of The Villages as a whole. And I don't think that's really the position that the film takes, either. I mean, I think this is a very, you know, I think the thing that I was more interested in looking at here are, these are four people on the margins of this fantasy world. And when you look at people at the extremes of a society, of a community, I think you can get to understand the mainstream a lot more, and the way people live their lives. And that kind of logic informs the way the movie operates, right? Where we bounce between, we toggle between one of these three storylines. And then the fourth story line, so to speak, is the - are these interstitial bites of The Villages and what the status quo at The Villages is, you know, more generally, and how, I guess, folks, how a sense of community is formed through conformity.

Matthew 27:21
Okay, and I think, I mean, the other thing that struck me, and then I think we're going to take a quick break for our listeners, or viewers, for those on YouTube. These are people who haven't found that, you know, they're in their twilight years last, or next to last chapter and haven't found the answers yet, have they? And may never find the answers.

Lance Oppenheim 27:46
That's true. No, I think that sentiment, and I think that sentiment is really what is at the heart of the movie, I, like, and it stretches back to what the title of the film is, Some Kind of Heaven, you can read that as a very despairing, ironic, kind of, you know, truly desolate outlook on life. But I also think there's something really beautiful to that idea that, you know, no matter how old you get, you never stop becoming; there's something really beautiful to that concept that even when you are, you know, when you are in your final, or you're nearing your final chapter of living, you know, there is a beauty to not knowing all the answers of life and continuing to search for them. It's so easy to just give up and stop searching. And I think the thing that makes each of these four people so beautiful and so unique, is that they all are searchers, they're all striving, they're all looking to better themselves, to better their lives. You could make the same comment, you know, you can say the same thing of the men as you can of the women; you can say the same thing of Reggie, who is experimenting with, you know, psychedelic, hallucinogenic drugs to achieve some level of spiritual enlightenment. You can say the same thing of Dennis who is still pursuing his dream of being like Hugh Hefner, and just not having to pay a dime and live off of, you know, the coattail is literally you know, of an older woman or a widow who no longer - who is looking for company and is lonely. I think it's all in there. And it's - and I think it's all about what - I think that really is a reflection at least I've known my perception of what life is I'm only 25 I feel like I have learned many things in the last few years but my perception of what life was like for them was exactly that. And everything in this film comes from them. And you know, I find it to be my job to just - how do you tell these stories in the most interesting, heightened ways. But really, my job is also to reflect and observe and allow people an immediacy of closeness to these people who I think you can learn a lot from.

Matthew 30:11
Okay. On that note, we're going to take a quick break. And we'll be right back with Lance Oppenheim, director and producer of Some Kind of Heaven.

Factual America midroll 30:20
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Matthew 30:38
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with the award winning director and producer Lance Oppenheim. The film is Some Kind of Heaven, premiered at Sundance in 2020. It drops as we've now heard, May 15 on Hulu, and other places. And so, I would just say go search the web, and I'm sure you will find it. And it's well worth the watch. I mean, we've already discussed it, you said you were drawn to it, but why, you know, I mean, I guess you had your opportunities to make other films; why, what was it? Why now? Why The Villages? And, you know, at this particular point in your life?

Lance Oppenheim 31:23
I wish I had a better answer for that. As you know, I think there was a story that I had grown up with, and a story that was gaining more interest in my mind, but I think, I don't, I try not to overthink why I'm interested in a subject if it's just - I think I like to try and find stories that on the surface, there's a hook, you know, there's a hook to the story, there's a hook to this world. And then my job, also, is to then understand, get deeper and find kind of a unique, creative treatment of that reality. And I felt that was what this was, too; you know, I wasn't really so interested in, you know, the whole conversation of me being much younger than all of my subjects I think was sort of less important to me, or less interesting; I think it was more of, you know, let's understand why people choose to live here. And for those who don't, who've made the choice, but regret it, or they've made the choice, and they're going through some very peculiar things that in some ways have been augmented by being in The Villages that seemed to be of interest and motivated me to do, you know, to make the movie when I did.

Matthew 32:44
Was gaining access an issue? I mean, you know, you do interview the founder's son, I believe, but, you know, I think a guy comes around with a camera to The Villages I imagine it startles some people if they're following Dennis around because they shouldn't be on the premises, I imagine they're starting to ask questions about you, or how did that work?

Lance Oppenheim 33:05
Well, I mean, it's funny, the first you know, the first week I stepped a foot there without a camera and I was living - I lived in an Airbnb; I rented a room with these two retired rodeo clowns that I found online. And I used that moment that, you know, the few - the month and a half I was there scouting and looking around, as a time to just see if I could enlist the participation of the developers because that's obviously a whole other story. It's a family run operation. The family themselves, they're very conservative. They're big, you know, they're friends, fans, supporters of financially and socially of Donald Trump, and a long lineage of other conservative politicians. And they've done something pretty fascinating. And in basically creating this empire, they've become near billionaires out of doing this. So, of course, my mind went there. And I wanted to go and talk with them; infamously, they really don't like granting interviews, they like to remain in the shadows, they like to be private. And I just, you know, over the course of like, almost two years of making the movie, I never had a conversation with any of them. I tried to, I was completely shut out many times. And, as a result, you know, I remember the Vice-President of The Villages told me that, you know, thanks, but no, thanks; your story is the residents and I used that as a way to basically make the film. I had that email. I think he was basically telling me to go fuck myself, but I also, you know, I thought it was good advice. So, I turned my attention elsewhere, very quickly, less of wanting to make that Wisemanesque institutional portrait, but something much more expressive and emotional. And, you know, as a result, over time, the movie became - making the movie it was almost like an act of - several times like an act of guerilla filmmaking I was constantly kicked out of different places; the developers as they learned, you know, as the process went on, and who, you know, the New York Times is backing of the project, which happened about, you know, early but sort of midway through production, and, of course, Darren Aronofsky's involvement, too; they became much more aware of my presence, and I think they, like, I'll never for sure know this, how to, you know, to what extent they did this, but one shop owner who I became friendly with told me that there was almost like a digital wanted poster of my face that they sent around, telling people to, uh, you know, if I, if they saw me to call this number, and they would have, you know, Villages security, try to escort me from the premises. But the beautiful thing about The Villages is that because it's so large, because it spans almost four counties now, they can't - it's kind of this interesting commingling between private and public property. So, in the places they wanted to throw me out, they couldn't because I was with residents on their own private property. And then when I was in their property, when I was, you know, the squares, the places that they would prefer not me to film, they had the right to kick me out. But again, because the place is so big, they just like, sometimes it took a while to find where I was. And by the time they found where I was, I was already gone. But it was definitely a ride for sure. And, you know, as the film has been out for a little bit now I've seen, you know, and there was emails that was sent by the top brass of the administration there telling residents that the film doesn't paint an accurate portrait of life, and don't watch it, don't support it, don't talk about it. So, I know that it's gotten under their skin. But it's funny to me, because I still don't see this film as a critical or hyper-critical portrait of the community. I mean, I don't - I see it as - I don't even really see it as anything - obviously, it's set in The Villages, but I see it more as a setting as opposed to a movie explicitly about The Villages. So, I find it interesting that they had such a negative reaction to it. But, you know, they make propaganda for their residents, and that's all they want people to see. So, I guess I shouldn't have been surprised.

Matthew 37:30
No, no, it's interesting, because I can, I would echo what you've just said, because I didn't think anything about The Villages, really. I mean, it's not my cup of tea, I can tell you that, but it is what it is. I think it's more, as you say, it's a setting. And there's plenty of these, I mean, not exactly like it, but there's all these sun cities around the US, and I think one of my uncles is now retired to some place in Florida that's not, again, didn't exist 20 years ago, now it's relatively large, sort of, I think it's its own city now. I mean, it's these things happen, you know, and it is something that's very unique, I would say is very, mostly very uniquely American. But I mean, with that in mind, in terms of the settings and what you're trying to create, I mean, this is much more than just - this is more than direct cinema; this is very artful and cinematic. And I mean, I think that was done intentionally. And maybe you know, you've got some of these amazing shots, some amazing cinematography; do you want to say something about your DP, David Bolen, in sort of the - at least visually, and we can talk about other elements of this, but visually, what you sort of what you were trying to create?

Lance Oppenheim 38:46
Well, I mean, first off, the movie would not exist in its form, without David and David and I, you know, have known each other now since I was 17. We traded messages online. I've been working with him on all of my short films for the most part, and you know, he's one of my best friends. So, it was a natural extension, I think, of a lot of the work and the way of working that we normally do together. But the ambition I think artistically with this - and every time we work together, we're always trying to push each other to do something newer, and, you know, the process remains mostly the same. But obviously, the settings change and our ability and thought about how to photograph something obviously changes as well. But across the board, across all the films we've made is this constant thing of, you know, let's think about how - very intentionally about where we are, what is the setting telling us? Who are the subjects? How can we bring the audience into their world, right? So, it's always - that's the first question we ask ourselves. The second question is then what do we, you know, how do we do it? Once we know, I think, for this specific film, it was a very, you know, there was obviously a lot of references that I brought to the table: photo books like Larry Sultan's Pictures from Home, another photo series that he did called The Valley, the films that I mentioned, you know, Safe, the Todd Haynes film, Edward Scissorhands, Bigger Than Life, Short Cuts, to some degree, the Robert Altman film, Joel Sternfeld's work, American Prospects, but all these things were in support of this larger idea of trying to make everything feel just as composed, just as manicured, just as intentional as The Villages landscape is itself, right. And I wanted to feel and bring the audience into that kind of Technicolor dream of what it feels like to be there. And to us what that meant was, you know, camera on a tripod the entire time, no deviation from that visual style, everything must be photographed in that manner. And the more we can bring the audience closer to that feeling, creating that Busby Berkeleyesque thing, also the, you know, and really just bringing them into this fold of this, you know, yeah, Technicolor extravaganza, I think the better off we would be. And the more they would be willing to engage with the film as a form of not just as a documentary, but you kind of are able to engage with it as you would a narrative film.

Matthew 41:31
I mean, you mentioned Technicolor, it's almost being evocative of the Hollywood of their youth for these.

Lance Oppenheim 41:36
Yeah.

Matthew 41:37
You know, for these people there. I mean, and also the music because I was struck - that's what struck me, I mean, you could have obviously gone in a different direction, and easy to do the boomer music throughout the thing, but you didn't, you've got an original score, which is quite - I mean, was that, again, how did that come about? Because that's, I thought it was for me, it was quite striking.

Lance Oppenheim 41:59
Thank you, yeah. That was another thing too, I mean, Ari Balouzian, the composer of the film is a, I will work with him as well for the rest of my life; this band of collaborators, I feel like we really hit our stride with this, and I had been working with him on films before this one. But Ari is an unbelievably talented person. And I think that was another element, too, of how do we take the audience into the world of The Villages and there was a lot of back and forth we had for quite a while of just what is this world sound like? What does it remind you of? And for Ari, the thing he latched on to was that idea of this kind of old Hollywood, old Disney, you know, reacting to the architecture of the place, and how the place, you know, functioned and how people in the place operated. So, for Ari, it was a lot of the Nelson Riddle, the Bernard Herrmann, kind of the taxi driver, that bass clarinet, you know, a lot of those sounds, a lot of strings, things that take you inside of this smelting paradise, so to speak. And hey, that was the other thing, too, it's like we love, I think, across the board, we wanted to get across this sense of this is a suburban landscape, this is something that is very beautiful, and there's a lot of eye candy on display, but there's also - there is trouble in the distance brewing, and there is a storm cloud and that storm cloud is only gathering more and more and more, and the place starts to look and feel a lot more ominous after you've seen some, you know, some of the stuff that you see in the movie go down. So, there was an element of that, too, of how do you turn the dream into a nightmare? How do we do it subtly? How do we enhance that not just through our photography, not just through our score, not just through the edit, but also through color? And, yeah.

Matthew 43:57
Okay. And I guess, your editor played a pretty, pretty big role in this, didn't he.

Lance Oppenheim 44:02
Huge role, huge role. Daniel Garber, you know, he gave the movie shape. He was the MVP, if there was an MVP award. I mean, he really is as most documentary editors are, he is like a co-author of this film, a co-director behind the scenes to some degree of just helping me figure out how to make sense of all this material, the hundreds of hours of material we shot. I think with the edit, our goal was to try and make this film feel as expressive and as impressionistic as a narrative film could feel while still retaining the groundedness and the truth and the authenticity to these folks' real stories. So, there was that ability, you know, not every editor is able to have, I think the foresight and the kind of the architectural story design, a mind that Daniel has, but he certainly brought that to this film, and unearthed this, you know, this whole - the beating heart of the movie, the beating heart of the material, which I had never really thought to film where the material could go for or go as far into.

Matthew 45:14
And you, I mean, am I right: did you originally foresee this, Some Kind of Heaven, as originally as a short and then it became - you were encouraged to make a feature? And then what are the challenges there? Because this becomes your first feature, you've done some great shorts previously, but, you know, walk us through a little bit of that?

Lance Oppenheim 45:36
Well, I mean, I think the film really, originally started off as my college thesis. And I just figured, you know, I would get, I tried just to raise enough money to spend about, you know, two or three weeks there and see what I come out with, and that will be it. But at the end of that three weeks, I remember just the feeling we all had my crew, we all just looked at each other, and we were like this is - there's something here, you know, we don't have it yet; we don't have it yet, but there's something here. We felt like we were stumbling on to something that maybe didn't quite unfold yet. But the approach, the way of the, you know, the way we were gelling with our subjects, things started feeling a lot different than I think they did on other films. But it was, I mean, it was a totally terrifying process, I had no clue. If you told me that this film was going to become, you know, a feature and require the amount of work it did, and the amount of collaborators it did; I mean, I think I certainly was up to the task, and I really do love collaborating with people and bringing people on to things and I think the one difference between, you know, making a short and making a feature, this isn't, you know, this isn't like a movie that costs millions of dollars to make. But still, nevertheless, it does require a lot of collaborators and a lot more people to kind of move that ship, not just, you know, on the ground, not just in the edit, but really, you know, the producers that got involved also had a lot to say. And anyway, I think that stuff to me was the big difference in distinction. And there were times, many times, where it felt like I was jumping off the building, and I didn't, you know, I was hoping that my parachute was going to inflate. And that was really what the experience was like, you know, I feel like we were Trojan horsing and lying and cheating and stealing our way in these pitch meetings to, you know, I was telling people, I knew exactly what the film was, how it was going to flow, who the subjects were, here are the three acts; you know, I didn't know anything, absolutely nothing. The thing I pitched and the thing that we resultantly were, you know, received funding for was entirely and completely different than what we actually made. But I'm all, you know, I'm very fortunate to have been working with collaborators on that side of things that saw what I was trying to do and gave us the leeway to make what we wanted to make.

Matthew 48:03
That raises a good point we often have a little bit of a segment - not, well, it's weaved into the discussion, but on sort of more career kind of type questions. And often we have older seasoned filmmakers on but I think it's interesting to hear your perspective because, as we'd say, here in the UK, you're right at the coalface you're in the here and now in terms of a young filmmaker, trying to make it and what would be your advice? Because it is a bit, you know, I have some interactions with people in the filmmaking world, and I know it's a bit nervy, you know, this idea that you've got to know exactly, especially with documentary film, you've got to know what the story is, you've got to know exactly what the film is, when you're pitching it. When you in many cases, you know it's going to be far different.

Lance Oppenheim 48:53
I mean, I think, I honestly think a big part of that is, well first, lie through your teeth and pretend like you know exactly what you're doing until, you know, and when you get to the point where you don't know, don't tell anybody and just figure it out and assemble a team of people, if you have the luxury to do so, that will go to war with you and will help figure out and make the best thing possible. And, you know, there's that, I think, to younger filmmakers, I really do think there is a big element, and I know some people may disagree with me on this, but I've always subscribed to the idea that the closest I could get to the people whose work inspired me the most, you know, I think the better off I would be, the better, not just from a, you know, career standpoint, but really just from a professional, as a lover of cinema as a lover of movies. That was always something I could do. And part of that, you know, you have to be able to make your own work. You have to be able to find avenues to get that work made. Once you make the work. You have to work just as hard to get people to see it. And no one's going to wait around, no one's going to, you know, you should bet - you should count on no one googling you or doing anything. You need to get your work in front of people and you need to be, you know, so just kind of like selling your mixtape on the street, so to speak. Find people's emails, reach out to them if you like them and send them the work you believe in. Send them the work that you're making. And that's really exactly how this film, you know, this film also wouldn't have been made if it wasn't in some part for Darren Aronofsky and his production company coming on board, I don't think we would have gotten the financing, we had needed to make the film. And the only way they got involved in the film was because I had been sending him cold emails for the better half of four years, none of which he replied to, but - or even looked at - but one of his creative executives eventually looked at and said, 'Hey, what's going on with this? Why is this kid spam emailing you?' And he had the foresight to watch my stuff. And, you know, it was very kind and we had a meeting and I told him about this, told me to send them what I had, and then, you know, unbelievably, they all responded to it. So, you do need the grit, you need the perseverance, I think, and you need the ability, I think, it's not an ability it's really just like sending cold emails, you never - doesn't charge you any money and you never know where shits gonna go, you know?

Matthew 51:27
That goes against all the - and I think probably rightly so - goes against all the networking advice I've been given and give out: Cold emails never work. They, you know, you got to make your way. You know, there's that kind of stuff. But that's really interesting. I mean, did he know you had been - Did Darren Aronofsky know you had been emailing him all these years?

Lance Oppenheim 51:50
When I eventually got to meet him, I think he was just sort of like, what's your, like, who are you?

Matthew 51:56
Who the hell are you?!

Lance Oppenheim 51:57
Yeah, exactly. But I mean, you know, so no, until his staff informed him and then you know, I think he's really - as talented as a filmmaker he is, he's also a very supportive and generous collaborator. He really did, he didn't get paid a whole lot of money. He didn't take anything from, he didn't ask for any, you know, producer fees, or anything like that he really wanted to help get the movie made. And I think there was a kinship in some ways, we went through the same film program in college. I was still in it. He obviously has been out of it for several years now. But a lot of the touchstones a lot of the things that I think we both were interested in, and the movies that we both like, there is that kind of commonality, that common ground that we that we share, and, you know, the work that he's made, you know, inspired me to really make movies to begin with, when I saw The Fountain in theaters, when I was really young, that was a movie that truly, you know, reshaped what I thought movies could be like, and I remember just moved me in a very fundamental, you know, way, and I wrote my college admissions essay about that movie. So, I had a real deep connection with his work and the way he sees things, and that was, you know, I wasn't necessarily angling, when I was sending emails to him saying, hey; I wasn't asking him to produce my movie, I was just saying, hey, I've made these short films, I'd love to hear what you think of them. I'm, you know, studying through the same thing, you know, your work really inspired me to, you know, great lengths. And then, very naturally, this project came about when they were asking what I was working on, and I showed them this. Very generous collaborator. And, you know, I plan to - we're working on another film right now together, that's - I plan to keep, you know, working with him on stuff.

Matthew 53:52 That's, that's great. In fact, that's one of the next or, and also one of our last questions because we're actually coming to the end of our time together, believe it or not, but what is next for you?

Lance Oppenheim 54:05 I feel like I've spent the better half of like this, this entire, you know, however long we've - the 20 years even in the pandemic, it feels like. I've been working on a whole lot of stuff. Yeah, I've been working on a fiction film with Darren, I'm working on another fiction film which I shouldn't say too much more about it but I'm hoping some news will come out about it soon enough. And then I've been shooting another documentary just to get my cam, you know, hands on a camera. So, there's a whole bunch of stuff. I really want to you know, keep making documentaries that feel just as heightened and cinematic as this one and as my previous work and I want to make fiction films that also are steeped in the reality and the, you know, that kind of just observation of characters as the documentaries also feel, so hopefully, I mean honestly, at this point, I just want to make a movie. I don't care what movie it is, I'll just go do it! I don't want to be precious. If it doesn't come out great, that's fine. I just want to, you know, want to keep going and keep making stuff.

Matthew 55:13
That's very interesting, because actually, people tend to go either narrative or doc, right?

Lance Oppenheim 55:19
Yeah.

Matthew 55:19
And, I mean, there are obviously some that have done both. But you don't feel like you need to make that decision, do you. You think you can, you're going to give it a go at least or give it a try in terms of give fiction a try and see where things lead you.

Lance Oppenheim 55:36
Yeah, I think so. I mean, you know, I think the ways I have approached documentaries, and that kind of the creative treatment of reality and settings, I really do think from a process standpoint, obviously, things are quite different in the fiction landscape, but I can see many of the stories I've already told. Whether it be the man living on a cruise ship, you know, that's, I see those stories. There is a natural extension to fiction, and a, you know, a preservation of that reality that's in the documentary that can be harnessed and examined and deepened in fiction in a way and I think we're in an exciting time. No matter how one feels about Nomadland, you know, I personally liked it quite a lot. But I think the process of making fiction films that are in tandem and have a hand or a foot in reality, will continue to exist. I think, like, the work of Chloe Zhao is an example of that. There are so many other examples of great filmmakers like Ulrich Seidl who've been doing this for years but I do think it's becoming a more mainstream concept. The Safdies did it with Heaven Knows What and Uncut Gems and Good Time. I mean, there's an interest, I think, that performers have, that actors have of playing alongside non-actors or playing inside the landscape, in an environment and atmosphere that is, that is different than the work they maybe normally do. So, that's that's um, I definitely am very interested in making that jump, making a movie that can be more widely seen and experienced and wish me luck because it's going to take some time to do it - time and money, which is a thing that is - I'm very impatient, you know, to wait for but I hope I'll get there soon enough.

Matthew 57:33
I have a feeling you'll get there. And we look forward to seeing it: your next project and the many projects to come, I'm sure. So, I want to thank you Lance for being on the podcast. It's been a pleasure having you on and if we haven't scared you off, we'd love to have you on again, sometime. So, I'm really digging the Lassie photo that's been behind you the whole time. So... So, thank you again for coming on and reminding our listeners, we've been talking about Some Kind of Heaven with Lance Oppenheim, the director and producer, Magnolia films and Dogwoof, and dropping on Hulu on May 15, for those of you who have access, and other ways of seeing it, I'm sure, around the world. If you have any questions regarding how you can become a documentary director and producer like Lance Oppenheim or other roles in the industry, I recommend you check out careersinfilm.com to learn more about careers in the film industry. A shout out to Innersound Audio just outside of York, England, our new home away from home. And a big thanks to Nevena Paunovic, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures who ensures we continue getting such great guests like Lance on to the show. And finally, a big thanks to our listeners. As always, we'd love to hear from you. So, please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. And please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.

Lance Oppenheim 58:01
Thank you!

Factual America Outro 59:16
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guest and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter @alamopictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films, and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk

Some Kind of Heaven: Inside The Villages, Disneyland for Retirees

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Some Kind of Heaven: Inside The Villages, Disneyland for Retirees

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