Martha Cooper: The Unlikely Hero of Street Art
Martha Cooper is an iconic American photojournalist and the unlikely hero of street artists across the globe. She documented New York's underground graffiti scene in the 1970s, at a time when street art was looked down upon as being immoral and lacking in artistic merit.
But Martha instead fell in love with the scene and in 1984 published her photos in Subway Art. After a failed launch, the book has gone on to be one of the most sold, and stolen, art books of all time. It also influenced a generation of street artists, including OSGEMEOS.
Selina Miles is the Australian director of the new feature documentary Martha: A Picture Story, which follows the life and work of Martha Cooper. Selina shares what she's learned about Martha's life, her global reputation, and what parts of her life the film documents.
We also talk about how Selina and Martha met, how Selina came up with the idea for the documentary, and what her thoughts are on the value of street art.
“Martha’s now in her 70s, still traveling the world documenting street art in places like Mongolia and Tahiti.” - Selina Miles
Time Stamps:
00:16 - The trailer for Martha: A Picture Story.
03:15 - Where the film is available to stream.
04:35 - Who Martha Cooper is and what she is known for.
06:04 - What her book Subway Art is about.
07:19 - Why her work didn’t receive much attention at the time.
09:39 - The impact the book had on street artists.
13:26 - How Martha found her style of artwork.
15:06 - The perspective that Martha brought to the breakdance scene.
18:46 - Why Martha found it hard to find her place in the world of photography.
22:15 - How Selina met Martha in Tahiti.
25:01 - How she persuaded Martha to make a feature documentary.
27:47 - How the documentary captures the evolution of photography.
30:03 - Martha's views on street art.
32:41 - How her early life informed her artistic vision.
33:55 - The value of photography these days.
36:10 - The type of recognition Martha is now receiving for her work.
Resources:
Martha: A Picture Story (2021)
Subway Art
Henry Chalfont
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Selina Miles:
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 51 - Martha Cooper: The Unlikely Hero of Street Art
Selina Miles 0:01
My name is Selina Miles. I'm a filmmaker from Sydney, Australia and I directed a feature documentary called Martha: A Picture Story, about the life and work of photographer Martha Cooper.
Martha Cooper 0:13
I very badly wanted to be a photographer
Speaker 1 0:16
These contain a lot of Marty’s pictures.
Martha Cooper 0:18
Interesting. I was looking all over for that. I was willing to do whatever it took to get to the heart of something. It turned out it took a lot.
Speaker 2 0:29
Marty's photographs change visual culture, all over the world.
Speaker 3 0:33
She's an icon.
Speaker 4 0:34
She's just out there all the time.
Martha Cooper 0:36
Come on, smile.
Martha Cooper 0:41 New York City was fascinating. I began to cover with the city scene.
Speaker 4 0:45
These photos influenced the whole world.
Speaker 5 0:47
She's with us from the beginning.
Speaker 6 0:49
Was a global phenomenon.
Speaker 7 0:52
Marty has her own unique perspective on things. It wasn't always easy for her to get the attention that she deserved.
Martha Cooper 0:59
I was the first female photographer at the New York Post. My assignment was look for cleavage.
Speaker 8 1:09
She likes travel, adventure, and a little bit of danger.
Martha Cooper 1:13
Are they gonna put me in jail for this?
Speaker 9 1:15
Of course they will.
Unknown Speaker 1:19
Marty Cooper's camera capture the corners of life, which are often forgotten about.
Martha Cooper 1:27
Always my pictures are people rising above the environment. And that's what I like.
Martha Cooper 1:34 People have come up to me and said ‘You changed my life’. All I can say to them as well - you changed my life.
Martha Cooper 1:41 I'm not comfortable with the idea that I'm a legend or an icon. I'm never gonna be a Google Doodle. Not a very high aspiration.
Matthew 1:53
That is a trailer for the soon to be released documentary Martha: A Picture Story. And this is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo Pictures, a London based production company making documentaries about America for international audiences. Today we'll be talking about Martha Cooper, the famous American photo journalist, and unlikely hero of street artists everywhere. And joining us is Selina Miles who has lovingly brought Martha's life to the big screen in her documentary Martha: A Picture Story. But Selina, how are things with you?
Selina Miles 2:25
Good, thank you. I'm in Sydney, Australia, and enjoying the last sort of few weeks of summer and just working on some projects locally over here. So, everything's going well. Thank you.
Matthew 2:36
Okay. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Again, as we've seen and heard from the trailer and as you've already said, the film we're talking about today is Martha: A Picture Story, came out in 2019. "A joyous look at a career devoted to witnessing everyday life" says Hollywood Reporter. World premiere at Tribeca Film Festival 2019; Utopia is releasing it in the US to video on demand on March 16. Do you know anything about releasing to the rest of the world? We have a lot of listeners across the globe, including in Australia.
Selina Miles 3:15
Yes, so the film is available on video on demand in Australia, and hopefully in some other territories soon. It's a question that I get asked a lot as well, because, you know, street art is a subculture that's kind of permeated every corner of the globe. So, I know there's a lot of people in different places that are interested to see this film. So hopefully, soon. That's all I can say at the moment.
Matthew 3:40
Okay. As we often tell people just to go do a search on the internet, and I'm sure you can, you know, it will be fine. And a good number of our listeners are in the U, so, we would definitely say, I guess your video on demand service of choice, you will be able to find it there. So, congratulations on it being released. And thanks again for coming onto the podcast, it's very much appreciated. So, you know, as they say in film: show, don't tell, but we don't have Martha here with us. So, I'm going to ask you, maybe you can, for our listeners out there, many of them who will not be aware of a lot about maybe street art and Martha's career, maybe tell us a little, you know, tell our listeners who Martha Cooper is and what this film’s about.
Selina Miles 4:34
Sure. So, Martha Cooper is a photojournalist, documentary photographer who was born in Baltimore in the 1940s and moved to New York City in the 1980s to work as a press photographer for the New York Post. And during that time, she discovered the early graffiti culture that was happening in New York in the 70s. And she started documenting it and sort of felt in love with it, and continued her documentation of graffiti and street art until today. So, she's now in her 70s and still traveling the world, documenting street art in places like Mongolia and Tahiti. And her contribution has, you know, has helped spread street art around the world. So, she's very well loved by people within that community.
Matthew 5:28
And so, what kind of, as you've said, she worked for the New York Post. I think the film says she'd walk through Alphabet City and places like that and just start taking, you know, she was, well, she's, as you said, she's a documentary photographer. She sees things, she observes and saw this sort of the burgeoning graffiti art movement. So, she produced this book, didn't she? That gets mentioned quite a bit in this doc. Maybe you can say a little bit about Subway Art.
Selina Miles 6:04
Yes, so Subway Art was the pictures, the first, sort of, five years of her graffiti pictures that were combined with the work of another photographer, Henry Chalfont into a self- published, well, it was eventually published by a publisher, but was very difficult to get published at the time, into a book that originally was run with about 3000 copies, which, you know, wasn't really considered as commercial success. But 20 years later, it's become known as the most stolen art book of all time, because it's a book that has been passed around by graffiti writers all over the world and sort of became like a textbook and a point of reference for people wanting to participate in graffiti culture.
Matthew 6:54
But as you said, this initially was, it wasn't even that it wasn't successful. I mean, I hate to use the pejorative term, but is sort of failure, lost money. So, she moved on to, she moved on to other things, didn't she? I mean, she just didn't, her photos didn't gain any traction. And any idea why that was?
Selina Miles 7:18
Yeah, I think that, at the time, especially in New York, graffiti was just a really unpopular topic, because of the ways that it was associated with other problems in the city, like, you know, crime. And New York was a very difficult place to live at the time and graffiti became a bit of a scapegoat for the problems of the city. And people just didn't want to even give it a chance or consider it as an art form or study it. It was just very stigmatized by, you know, the government, but also sort of art institutions. And it wasn't until that part of the city's history kind of was gone, that people were able to open up to the possibility of it being something interesting and worthy of study.
Matthew 8:12
And I think, I mean, to be fairly blunt, I mean I think a lot of these young artists were, who are no longer young anymore, they're all about my age, but I think they're, they were probably seen as a bunch of thugs and hoodlums in many ways, weren't they? But as we, I think your film shows, many of them were anything but. But as you've already alluded to, I mean, and I know you've got a background in street art, which we can talk a little bit more, about more later. But, I mean, just how seminal is this book? It's almost like, you know, you hear about these rock albums that just influenced everyone, but only sold like, you know, 3000 copies or something. But everyone who is somebody ended up listening to that album. I mean, that's what strikes me about this book. And a lot of things about this movie, I will say, a lot of things I was not aware of. It's another one of these great films that are coming out now that are telling stories that, you know, just when we thought there were no more stories to be told, or told a different way, we're here, all these things that we didn't know about. So maybe you can put this book in perspective. I know you said it's gone global, but, you know, you've got some great scenes with some big names in street art, who just talked about how important this was for them.
Selina Miles 9:37
Yes. It's amazing to speak to people about the impact that this book had on them when they were younger, especially in the days before the internet, when access to information wasn't what it is today. And I think the best anecdote that was sort of passed around, that I heard it from a few different people... I think the first time I heard the story was from Jeffrey Deitch, who's a gallerist and the curator in New York. But then I actually went to Brazil and tracked down these artists and spoke to them myself, OSGEMEOS who are twins from Brazil. So, their story is that, in the 80s, they had an American graffiti writer come to visit in Brazil and he brought this thing called his graffiti information kit. And he included a copy of this book Subway Art. And they photocopied it. And they, you know, they photocopied every page. And they drew in the colors, and they passed this thing around in a black and white Xerox version. And their mother was an English teacher, so she translated all of the captions for them. And that's how they learnt to do graffiti. And they are now, you know, some of the biggest, most successful street artists in the world. So, it affected everyone like that. And when you go to these events, and you speak to people, it's just the same story over and over again from different people.
Matthew 11:01
Yeah, I liked how they, I think they said they would even, because they had the black and white version, the photocopy, they would just color it in, you know, themselves and almost like it was a, is more than this, but almost like a coloring book. Now these are guys with installations in, like, the Tate Modern and places like this. But does Martha really have no clue that this is happening? She has no idea that this is, that this is having this impact globally? Is that correct?
Selina Miles 11:30
Yes. I mean, because she was a professional photographer. And, you know, she embarked on this project, because she thought it was interesting, but she also thought it was going to be a foot in the door to an editorial photography career for her. And so, when, you know, things didn't work out the way that she was hoping, she just moved on to other things. She was working, you know, full time in New York, it's a high pressure lifestyle, and she kind of put it all behind her. And I think, in the days before the internet, it, you know, it was possible for subcultures to be developing, you know, in other places without anyone's knowledge. And so, yeah, the book was literally passed around from hand to hand. And it was not until, I'd say sort of the early 2000s, that she started to reconnect with that community and started to realize the impact that her work had had.
Matthew 12:28
Yeah, I was thinking, I remember the first time I ever went to Paris, it was in March of 2002. And I was just blown away by how much graffiti there was everywhere. And street art. And I now know who to, I should say credit for that, I think. But, I mean, in her own career, so she files the slides away, she goes on to other projects, she wants to be an editorial photographer, I think you had some great scenes there with Susan Welchman, who, longtime photo editor at Nat. Geo. And, I mean, again, I hate to use the term failed, but I mean, from a career standpoint, we all have our strengths and weaknesses. I think you're very, very upfront about this. I mean, it just wasn't working out for her in terms of trying to develop an editorial photographer career, was it?
Selina Miles 13:24
I mean, yeah, there was a time when she got her dream job, which was working with National Geographic, and she, you know, she worked with them on a couple of assignments. And she just realized that it was just not the type of photography that she wanted to do. And so, she stopped and did something else, which I think is so admirable, and it really speaks to her character and her tenacity. And yeah, we sort of go, we spend a lot of time in the film talking about why that type of photography wasn't right for her. And, you know, a big picture why Martha hasn't found the recognition that she was looking for, until now. And, you know, she's not your traditional editorial photographer, and she's not like an artistic, artful, you know, institutionalized artistic photographer. So, she is a hard to place and a hard to understand for some people. So, I think that's what also makes her so special and interesting.
Matthew 14:26
And as you said, I mean, it's not just graffiti and street art, she moves on to do all kinds of things. I mean, she even started off, well, she did a lot of things. But one of the main things she was looking at was tattooing - years, decades before it became kind of more mainstream. You could credit her with sort of helping launch hip hop. I mean, in terms of, maybe you can say a little bit more about that, because that was, I mean, that was an incredible scene where this guy from Germany just goes and looks at her photo archives, and he's just blown away by all the stuff that she's got sitting around.
Selina Miles 15:03
Yes, she, she had, again well working for The Post, she'd come across this group of young boys that were breakdancing, you know, they'd put cardboard down. And they were dancing. She was actually called there by The Post to document what was, they were calling a riot, and it turned out it was just these boys dancing. And I think because of her interest in kind of anthropology, she was always looking for, you know, expressions of folk art, or people sort of using creativity in their own ways that they haven't been instructed to by somebody else. And so that's what she saw. She said, she was fascinated by seeing boys dancing. So that's the kind of perspective that she brings to things and that was some of the earliest photos of certain breakdancing crews in New York that were forming at the same time. And those photos have become incredibly important to that culture. And those sorts of stories are just repeated over and over with Martha, you know, with lots of different subcultures in New York. It seems like she was just everywhere at that time. And not only was she there, but she documented everything in a way that others didn't. Her photos are composed in a way that really helps people understand the how and the why of what people were doing. And then she kept it all. So, it's, yeah, it's kind of an archivist’s dream going into her studio. It's just like, it's just such a treasure trove. It's so exciting going in there.
Matthew 16:39
Well, for some of my age, it was great to see someone pull out old slides, you know, like Kodachrome slides and things. You just don't see that anymore. And she's still going strong in her mid to late 70s. As you've mentioned, I mean, it's absolutely amazing and a testimony to what can still be achieved as you get into your later years, isn't it?
Selina Miles 17:02
Yeah, she lives for her work. She just lives and breathes photography. And I think that that passion has fueled her through, you know, seven decades. She's, you know, she doesn't take holidays. She doesn't really ever seem to rest. I think, yeah, she's just got so much passion and curiosity that drives her. And I think there's no one that doesn't find that inspiring. It's amazing. I hope to have half of her energy.
Matthew 17:32
Oh, I'd like to have half of her energy now. But, I've actually been to that neighborhood in southwest Baltimore. By accident, I will say, but I have been to that neighborhood. I mean, that's, she's got this, you know, passion project she's doing. It's all very amazing. I mean, you alluded to it earlier, I'll ask you now. Maybe you can say something about what do you think her place is in the august world of photography? Because she definitely, I mean, I think she comes out and says she's never really felt accepted. And you've got that one great scene where there's a guy who kind of looks like Stanley Tucci who works for a gallery, he is just basically, to paraphrase Willie Nelson, smiles and children aren't playing this year, basically. Not too many smiles. People don't like smiling people, and you don’t know not too much children, they're too cute. I mean, what's going on here? I mean, you kind of alluded to it, not just kind of, you've mentioned it earlier. But, why is she finding it so hard to find this place in the world of photography?
Selina Miles 18:36
I think that the people who have the most successful careers, you know, as artistic photographers, or in any kind of institutional industry, are the ones who are sort of really consistent and, you know, sometimes maybe a little bit sort of prescriptive and can deliver a product that's saleable. And Marty's just not like that. She just does, she'll do whatever she's interested in, with no fear of, or even really consideration of where that product needs to live. Like she's not driven by, you know, she's not strategic at all about her photography. She's very much looked inward for guidance rather than outward. And I think, you know, it's hard for people sometimes to place her or to understand how to talk about her photography. And I think that's what was going on in that scene. And what I love about that scene, it's, you know, this gallerist sitting down with Martha to try and understand which of her photos to exhibit. And he says, ‘Oh, we're not going to, we're going to try not to have too many smiling children’ - because Martha loves photographing children, that is her favorite thing. And she says ‘Why?’, and that's the moment that makes that scene important, is that he can't explain why. And he kind of stumbles and he says, ‘Well, it's just the way it is’, like, that's just what art is, like, people don't take those seriously. And he doesn't know why. And I thought that was what made that work, you know, because he's kind of just doing his job. But, it's, yeah, she doesn't think about those things at all.
Matthew 20:17
He kind of says, well, if you go, sort of stumbles, but if you go throughout art, you know, look at the portraits, there are not too many smiling people or something like that, you know? I don't know. I think this is actually, this may be a good time to have a quick break for our sponsor, and then we will be right back with Selina Miles.
Factual America midroll 20:40
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Matthew 20:59
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with director, cinematographer, writer and editor Selena Miles, of Martha: A Picture Story. Utopia is releasing in the US to video on demand on March 16. It's already available in Australia. And it should be available everywhere else very soon. “80 of the happiest minutes documentary lovers are likely to spend in a theater this year" said Hollywood Reporter. Remember when we used to be able to go to a theater and watch a film, but I will second that. I thought it was an extremely tight 80 minutes, very enjoyable. You learn a lot. I learned, and you know these are time periods I've lived through. I went to New York in the 80s. I learned something I had not known anything about until seeing this film. And more than just learn something, because that's death knell for documentaries these days, it was fun. It was a very enjoyable 80 minutes. Selina, how does a young woman from Brisbane end up teaming up with a street art icon?
Selina Miles 22:14
I think it's not that unbelievable, in the sort of connected world we live in today. It's pretty simple. I just sort of got into graffiti and street art through friends growing up in Brisbane, you know, there's a whole sort of group of people that participate in that. And then through that I was invited to a street art festival in Tahiti that happens every year. And I was the sort of videographer that was documenting the festival and Martha was the official photographer. So, you know, I of course knew her work and her book and her whole history, and we got given a car and we would drive around the capital of Tahiti together for a couple of weeks and take photos of murals. And you know, when Marty tells the story, she says about me, she says, ‘Oh, when I saw her getting on that drone, and flying that drone around’, I was like, ‘Oh, who's this? She looks like she knows what she's doing’. And Martha's very supportive of women and other female photographers. I think that was my inroad. So, I was just very, very lucky to get placed with her.
Matthew 23:24
But it's one thing to travel around with her and, you know, meet a hero of yours. But when did the, how did the idea come up for a documentary?
Selina Miles 23:34
I wish that it had come up, you know, in a sort of organic way. But it kind of happened by accident. I started documenting... I asked her if I could come to New York and make a short sort of 10 minute piece about her for a series that I'd been doing on different artists. And she said, ‘Yeah, sure’. And I said, ‘Oh, it'll be two weeks, you know, not too long’. And I flew into New York, and I arrived at her studio, and she sort of gave me a key to her studio and said, ‘Welcome, this is where you're staying in’. The walls were just, you know, covered in slides and all this amazing memorabilia. And the first person that I interviewed was Susan Welchman. She's like, ‘Oh, you should interview my friend Susan’. And that just happens to be, you know, Susan Welchman, photo editor of National Geographic for 35 years, and I didn't really know, sort of the non-graffiti street art part of Martha's history. So once all that started to click into place, I realized there was a much, much bigger story than what was going to fit into 10 minutes and that's when I started just, I just kept coming back and didn't really know what I was doing. What I was going to do with the footage, and then, you know, it was later on that we realized that it was definitely going to make a feature.
Matthew 24:53
And was she, I mean, she strikes me as quite humble. Was she reluctant to make a feature doc out of her life?
Selina Miles 25:01
Well, this is why I think it was good that I kind of tricked her into it. Not intentionally, but, because I think if I'd come to her with a proposal for a feature doc, she probably would have said no, but I don't think it's about being humble. I think it's more that sounds like the kind of thing that might slow her down or get in her way from, you know, taking photos, which is what she lives for. So that was the challenge, was making sure that I wasn't sort of impeding her process or getting in her way.
Matthew 25:35
That's, that's amazing. And I think it's even in the press pack, but you say, you started, you know, ringing people up, going to meet people. And once they find out what you're doing this, they say, ‘Oh, I will do anything for Martha’. You found a lot of eager participants for this film, didn't you?
Selina Miles 25:53
Yes, it was actually very hard to find anyone with any kind of opposition, or that could create any friction, or, you know, which is why I was so happy when I found that scene of the gallerist. I was like, finally, there's some conflict. Cause, you know, a film needs conflict. Yeah, she's very, very well liked.
Matthew 26:10
That's a lovely, lovely doc. But why is it taking so long to be released?
Selina Miles 26:17
I think COVID is definitely been something – a factor - that's affected, you know, everybody in the film industry over the last 12 months. And, you know, it is also like a pretty sort of niche documentary, as far as a lot of people are concerned, it's a niche topic. And it's hard to place, you know, independent documentary in cinemas these days. So, I've learned a lot about the distribution process. And I'm just really happy that people are going to be able to see the film. And, you know, we've had people contacting us from every country in the world asking where they can see the film. From Russia, you know, we've had screenings in Russia, we've had screenings all over South America and Europe and Asia. So, it's, yeah, it is a really global film. And I'm glad that it's sort of having an ongoing life.
Matthew 27:07
We won't derail this conversation with about how distribution is or is not working in the film world right now, especially for independent docs. But it seems to me at the very, I mean, even if it's just everyone who's got an interest in street art these days, you're gonna get, you've got quite a viewership, I think, for this film. But it's more than that. Correct me if you think, if I'm wrong, but it strikes me this film is also about other things, like all good docs are. And it's also film about the evolution of two art forms, isn't it: street art and photography. Because I feel like that's what you captured in this film as well. Do you agree?
Selina Miles 27:46
Yes, I think so. Because, you know, a lot of the themes in the documentary are about the changing role of photography, you know, in art and in society, and how the relevance of a photographer like Martha has shifted, the ways in which her work is understood is changing with time, and it's fascinating. I find that stuff to be the most interesting part of it. And that's the tricky thing is that as much as this is a film about street art and graffiti, it's also got some incredibly universal themes. And I think it can be enjoyed by anyone, you know, it isn't niche in that regard. So, I do hope that people aren't sort of scared off by the graffiti content, even though there's some scary graffiti scenes in the first 10 minutes.
Matthew 28:35
Yeah. So, you're not, maybe you haven't done yourself justice. There is tension, there is conflict. I mean, one thing we haven't even talked about is, Martha thrives on a little danger, doesn't she?
Selina Miles 28:49
Yeah. Yeah, she does. She really does.
Matthew 28:55
And not a spoiler alert. But, you know, we see her going, you know, undercover. I mean, if she'd been here, I was gonna ask her, even ask her questions. She even says, you know, some of the stuff they're doing is sort of vandalism. You know, where's this line between, maybe there's something you can speak to as street art. I mean, we could do a whole podcast on street art and a bit about how, you know, it's becoming, hard to say it's mainstream, but it's becoming more mainstream. It's in galleries, we found out that these young artists from the 70s and 80 weren't thugs. They are actually extremely well-spoken artists that have a lot to say. And so how do you maintain street art's vibrancy when it does start becoming kind of more mainstream? Is this something that people in street art talk about? Or is this something, do you still need to have this sort of danger element of sneaking into, breaking into a railway yard and painting a carriage?
Selina Miles 30:02
Yeah, it's definitely a hot topic. It's something that people love to talk about. And I think people's compulsion is to sort of try and categorize, especially when it comes to art, you know, this is this, is not this and it helps people to understand things that can be confusing. And, you know, Martha has taught me so much about how to think about these things. And I think having been around for so many decades and had expectations that have failed, or things that have surprised her, or cultures that have come back when she thought that they were gone, she has this really pragmatic attitude. And she, I think, looks at the world just with curiosity. And you know, she says, when we're talking about the gentrification of neighborhoods using street art, and is street art still relevant, she says, you know, when I see street art being used in advertising, I'll definitely take a photo of that. And that's kind of her measure on the world is - is this worth taking a photo of? And she doesn't try and have an opinion about good or bad or right or wrong. And I think that sort of open mindedness is the right way to come about it. I think it's all interesting. And it's, you know, culture is never static, it's always evolving and changing and responding. And it's expanding in every direction. You know, there's more extreme things happening in this sort of outrageous commercial things happening. So, I think it's all just part of it. And it's all intertwined. And, yeah, so it's a hard one to answer that question.
Matthew 31:40
Yeah, maybe, maybe we sometimes, I certainly do, sometimes overthink things. And also, I mean, strikes me and I was even gonna make the comment earlier, I think, in some ways, thank goodness she's had the career she's had, but she might have been better suited as a documentary filmmaker in some ways. You know, one of these classically, observational cinema kind of types, because that's basically what she, she observes, she sees things and takes pictures of them. And she doesn't create some artifice or anything, she just what she sees, I mean, I'm just speaking out loud here, but strikes me, she sees things through the camera lens, and says, ‘wait a minute, that makes a good picture, or I'm capturing something that's interesting’. And she has an eye for that. I think it even comes up, she doesn't have an eye for facial recognition or something like that. But she does have an eye for the amazing photos that she takes.
Selina Miles 32:40
Yeah, yeah. And I think it's just a really sort of unique combination of her experiences in her formative years, as well, you know, having a father who ran a photography store, and then having her training in newspaper photography. I think that's really informed her sort of visual language and that kind of objectivity. And, you know, trying to just tell it how it is, you know, that seems to be her mission. And I've learned a lot from watching the way that she sees the world and the way she handles things and to kind of this deliberately unintellectual approach, sometimes, which I really like, and respect.
Matthew 33:21
That's very interesting. And I think one thing we hadn't discussed also is what the film also captures, given her, you know, the time period, is that we've gone from a world where she's the first female photographer at the New York Post, to now a world where everyone's a photographer or filmmaker. And I kind of interrupted you earlier, but you were saying that this is one thing that you're capturing, where the photography, where's photography heading? I mean, where do you think it's heading? Is it becoming less appreciative of the Martha Coopers of the world?
Selina Miles 33:55
You know, there's some scenes in the film where we go down to Art Basel in Miami, you know, the big international art fair, and we're in Wynwood, which is this neighborhood where tourists flock in there, tens of thousands, to take photos of these murals. And some of those scenes are pretty frightening. As a, you know, documentarian, you look at it and you think, oh, my goodness, like, there's just, I don't know how many images are produced in that neighborhood every day collectively, but it would be 10s of 1000s. And then you start to think well, in 100 years, if people want to look back and study what the world was like at this time, how would they do it? Like how would they sift through all this stuff? And I think that's when photographers like Martha become important. Because it becomes less about the being there and the taking the photo and more about the context that you bring to that photo, and what you do with it afterwards and how it's archived and how it's explained later. So yeah, but it is changing. It's, you know, it's very hard to get, to be the only one to get a picture these days. And I think that's what drives Martha underground with graffiti artists is, you know, and I can attest to it, because I've done it myself, the feeling of being the only one there documenting something and knowing that if you weren't there, that moment would not make it into history, is kind of intoxicating in today's kind of saturated environment. So, yeah, it's a tough one. But I do think it's worth thinking about, but it's not worth worrying about.
Matthew 35:38
Yeah. And what do you think her legacy is or will be? I mean, she even kind of mentions it too. If you don't know, she saved all these, well, all these slides. And now I'm sure all these digital images on I don't know how many hard drives, she probably has, you know, people 30 years from now, whatever might come back and find some things that she's taken photos of now and then appreciate it. But do you think she'll receive the credit she's due?
Selina Miles 36:09
Yes, absolutely, I do. And I think it's beginning to happen now. And I'm so glad that the film has contributed to that. There's a huge retrospective of her career that's on. It's being exhibited at the Urban Nation Museum in Berlin at the moment, and it's just been extended to next year. So that's, you know, one of the first, I'm sure it won't be the last. And, yeah, I think that there's, you know, hundreds of 1000s of photographs in her archives that no one's seen since she took them. So, who knows what, how those will become important in the future. So, yeah, and I also think just the kind of, the life lesson you can take from Martha's story, and, you know, the thing that people say to me after seeing the film is, you know, it makes me want to go out and take photographs and inspires me to be who I am and go my own way in life. And I think that's her legacy, and people who learn her story will hopefully, continue to be inspired by the moves she's made in her life. So, yeah, I think it's only just the beginning for to people understanding her as a photographer, for sure.
Matthew 37:24
And with that in mind, what do you think, what do you want the legacy of this film to be?
Selina Miles 37:28
I don't know, it's like, you know, it's been, as you said earlier, it has been difficult to get distribution for this film. And I think it's partly to do with the timing and things that are going on in the world. But there's also been moments where I've been like, ‘Oh, you know, is it ever gonna have a life?’ And then I just think about Subway Art, you know, and I think this is probably how, it’s a small, on the small scale, what Martha experienced with Subway Art. And then, you know, when she's in her 60s, it comes back in this amazing way. So, you know, that makes me feel more reassured that this film will have an ongoing life. And there's so many people that feature in it that are important. So, I'm really optimistic about how this film will live on. Yeah, I'm just happy that people get to see it.
Matthew 38:18
All right. And it's a, I understand it's your directorial feature debut. Is that right?
Selina Miles 38:24
Yeah. Yes, it is.
Matthew 38:26
Yeah. So, well, again, congratulations. Extremely well done. And what is, what's next for you?
Selina Miles 38:33
That's a good question. Right now, I'm just sort of laying low in Australia. It doesn't feel like the right time to sort of start working on another feature for me. So, I've got a few things in development, and just keeping an eye out for the next story worth telling. It's a hard act to follow. I feel like I got so lucky with Martha, so... When I find something as good, I'll let you know.
Matthew 38:58
Please do. We'd love to have you back on. I think you do have a hard act to follow, because I think you've done an amazing job with this first film, and you have a great subject. And it's, like I said, it may not be - I mean, probably we have undersold it in some ways. I mean, you have these interviews with these famous street artists, we've got amazing scenes that's been captured in terms of her, you know, archival stuff involving her from the 70s and the 80s. And these different scenes she's captured. And the whole artistic process and, as you said, they're these big global themes. And we also have, again, bit of a spoiler, but we also have Martha running around in a black hoodie, going undercover with a bunch of Renegade street artists in Berlin. So, you know, I think it's some pretty nervy stuff in there, I think. Worrying about whether she's going to get run over by a train or not. So, I think, so it's well done and just wanted to congratulate you again. And to say, I think we've about come to the end of our time together. So, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast, Selina.
Selina Miles 40:21
Thank you so much for having me and thanks for your interest in the film.
Matthew 40:24
Well, it's more than interest. I highly recommend people check this out. It's, again, just to remind our listeners, we've been talking to Selina Miles, the director of Martha: A Picture Story. Utopia is releasing in US to video on demand on March 16. It's available in Australia already and it will be available in the rest of the world, imminently. Also give a shout out to our engineer Freddie Besbrode and the rest of the team at This Is Distorted studios here in Leeds, England. I want to thank again Nevena Paunovic, our podcast manager who ensures we continue getting such great guests, like Selina, onto the show. And finally, a big thanks to our listeners. As always, we'd love to hear from you. So please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media or directly by email. And please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America signing off.
Factual America Outro 41:24
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures, specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at Alamo Pictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk