Tim O'Brien: The Final Book on the Vietnam War

Factual America

2 Mar

Written By

Born William Timothy O'Brien, Tim O'Brien is one of the most influential living American writers, a National Book Award winner and the author of the groundbreaking book The Things They Carried.

Tim joins us along with award winning director and producer Aaron Matthews to discuss Aaron's film, The War and Peace of Tim O’Brien.

Aaron spent over a year filming Tim as he battled to write one final book – a legacy for his young family about life and fatherhood – even as Tim and his family remain haunted by the ghosts of the Vietnam War.

Tim talks about the intrusion of allowing a film crew to delve deeply into his and his family's personal lives. But by doing so, the film captures the day-to-day intrusions of family life on Tim's creative process.

The discussion naturally leads to the importance of fatherhood, and Tim O'Brien's perception of all combat zones and wars – past, present and future – given his own experiences as an infantryman in the Vietnam War.

“I find it outrageous that we can spend 15 years in Vietnam killing 3 million people, and you can go to a school in America and they know nothing about the Vietnam War.” - Tim O’Brien

Time Stamps:

03:31 - Where you can watch The War and Peace of Tim O’Brien.
04:17 - What the film is about.
05:30 - How Aaron met Tim and got the idea to make the film.
07:05 - What Tim’s response was to a film being made about him.
08:37 - What it’s like having a camera crew follow you around for so long.
10:47 - What it was like for Aaron being allowed so deeply into someone else's life.
12:27 - What Tim’s family thought of the documentary's creation.
15:29 - What it was like for Aaron seeing Tim’s creative process unfolding over time.
18:46 - The struggle and unpredictable nature of writing a book.
25:20 - First clip: Tim talks about his experience in Vietnam.
28:29 - What it was like for Tim to not write for over 15 years.
31:39 - The film's theme of fatherhood, and the importance of fathers.
37:45 - Second clip: how Vietnam changed Tim’s life forever.
40:21 - The never-ending outrage Tim has towards war.
43:05 - The different reasons you can use to go to war.
47:50 - What Aaron’s motivation to make the film was.
52:15 - The issues with using the word ‘war’.
56:10 - How interested Tim’s sons are in the Vietnam war.
01:01:20 - The contrast Tim’s warmth brings to the dark nature of the film.
01:04:43 - Will Tim ever write another book?

Resources:

The War and Peace of Tim O’Brien (2021)
The Things They Carried by Tim O'Brien
Dad's Maybe Book by Tim O'Brien

Transcript for Factual America Episode 50 - Tim O'Brien: The Final Book on the Vietnam War

Aaron Matthews 0:00
Hi, my name is Aaron Matthews and I'm the director of The War and Peace of Tim O'Brien.

Tim O'Brien 0:05
Hi, I'm Tim O'Brien. I'm the victim of Aaron's film.

Tim O’Brien 0:012 My children have to live with what they call dad's bad time. So, they too will carry the burden of a war.

Speaker 1 0:21
His mood depends on whether he has good or bad writing days.

Tim O'Brien 0:26
The struggle to make something good. And what a struggle.

Speaker 2 0:33
National Book Award winning novelist Tim O'Brien here

Speaker 3 0:35
Best American writer of his generation

Speaker 4 0:38
One of the rare works of recent literature, The Things They Carried sold more than 2 million copies and it's helped define Vietnam and the experience of war.

Tim O'Brien 0:47
The hard part is that I haven't written a book in 15 years. I have no idea where the handset is.

Tim O’Brien 0:54 It feels like there's a conspiracy of nature to stop me from writing anything.

Tim 0:58 Think about what it means to go to war. And think about it in terms of yourself. You want to go?

Speaker 5 1:03
Tim, when he's writing, it's so intense.

Tim O’Brien 1:07
It seems so conspicuous - war sucks, you're gonna be dead forever.

Speaker 6 1:15
There's the baggage that everybody carries. But he has had a little extra to carry all his life.

Tim O'Brien 1:22
I suddenly became a killer of people. This is just the opposite of everything I thought I was.

Tim O'Brien 1:28
To see all that, I feel overwhelmed. I need like another 10 years to write this.

Tim O'Brien 1:34
I know that time is running out.

Tim O'Brien 1:37
Have a great day of school. I love you.

Tim O'Brien 1:41
Why I'm writing the book. It's the inspiration that my kids when I'm dead, will hear their father's voice and understand in life, we have to fight through our battles.

Matthew 2:01
That is a trailer from the documentary, The War and Peace of Tim O'Brien. And this is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo Pictures, a London based production company making documentaries about America for international audiences. Today, we're in for a special treat as we welcome world renowned author, Tim O'Brien, to the podcast. And joining Tim is Aaron Matthews, award winning documentary director and producer of The War and Peace of Tim O'Brien. Aaron and Tim, welcome to Factual America. Aaron, how are things with you?

Aaron Matthews 2:34
Really good. Thank you so much for having us.

Matthew 2:36
It's great having you. Where are you? Are you in Brooklyn?

Aaron Matthews 2:39
I'm in Brooklyn. Yeah, we just got like a foot and a half of snow. So, I'll take any change to the environment these days. And this is like a welcome shift in the visual panorama.

Matthew 2:53
Okay. And Tim, how are things with you?

Tim O'Brien 2:57
Fine, thank you. How about you?

Matthew 3:00
I'm well, are you in Austin?

Tim O'Brien 3:02
I'm in Austin, Texas. Yeah.

Matthew 3:04
Excellent. So, as I said, we've heard or some have seen, if they're on YouTube, the trailer for The War and Peace of Tim O'Brien. Alex Belth at Esquire says "in The War and Peace of Tim O'Brien we witness a sliver of the time he (Tim) has left with his sons and his wife. Matthews is a disciplined storyteller uninterested in self-indulgence". It's releasing in March, Aaron, where will we be able to watch this?

Aaron Matthews 3:32
Worldwide. You should be able to get it anywhere you want on a number of streaming platforms, March 2.

Matthew 3:38
Okay, so people can just, March 2, make a note of that, and so people can just Google it and they'll find you someplace.

Aaron Matthews 3:45
I hope so. That's the idea.

Matthew 3:47
Okay. So, thanks so much, Tim and Aaron for coming onto the podcast. Congratulations on this finally getting released. I know a lot of people have been waiting for this because it's been, certainly in the can for a while. So many themes, so many things we could talk about, but maybe Aaron you can kick us off here with a little bit of background about what this film is about. And whose idea was this?

Aaron Matthews 4:17
The quick logline is renowned author and Vietnam veteran, Tim O'Brien, is battling to write one final book. So, that's the quick synopsis and then to flesh that out, you know, for people who don't know Tim O'Brien, he's one of the most influential living American writers, National Book Award winner and author of the groundbreaking book The Things They Carried. If there's one author that young people today can remember, if they can only remember one author, it's usually Tim O'Brien. So, the film picks up as Tim is embarking on a new book after not publishing for 15 years. Early in this century, he had sworn off sentences when he became a father for the first time. And this is also right around the time that America was waging new wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. And he, like most of us, was trying to wrap his head around what was going on with those wars. And the film chronicles him struggling to finish this one last book.

Matthew 5:24
It certainly does. Now who, how did you come up with this idea? I mean, you know, or how do you even pitch this. I'm gonna make a film about a guy who spends 12 to 14 hours a day, you know, basically chained to a desk.

Aaron Matthews 5:37
Sitting in his underwear as Tim likes to say.

Matthew 5:39
Well, that too, certainly shorts. Yeah.

Aaron Matthews 5:44
Tim talks a lot about sitting in his underwear writing, I don't think he figured that someone would actually document that. The genesis of the film, really, the short answer is Tim himself. I met Tim working on another PBS documentary that was looking at the history of the military draft. Working on that project, I got really interested in how Americans are really disconnected from the wars our nation wages, how so few people in this country bear the burden of killing and dying. And I interviewed Tim for this film, and his interview blew me away. We also hit it off on a personal level. But in terms of his interviewing, and what attracted me to him, and then eventually, the idea of doing this film, is that he could, he was able to express really big ideas, especially about the meaning and impact of war from a veteran’s perspective, and in a relatable way. And he was a storyteller, the book, you know, a great storyteller.

Matthew 6:51
So, you pitched this idea to him about making this film?

Aaron Matthews 6:55
Pitched the idea. He said, no.

Matthew 6:58
Of course he did. Why would you? Why the hell did you say yes, Tim?

Tim O'Brien 7:03
Oh, I didn't for some time. I'm uncomfortable talking about writing, because, perhaps out of superstition, but I don't think so. I think it deadens the act of writing, you say you're going to do something, and you're immediately locked into it. So, I felt what if I don't want to write this new book and decide against it? I worried I'd be locked into doing a book I didn't in the end want to do. But Aaron is a persuasive guy. And he's a nice guy. And we became friends. I learned to trust him. And eventually, I didn't really say yes, except provisionally; I said, we'll give it a shot. We'll see how it goes. And over the next several years, Aaron essentially ended up living with me for you know, big swathes of time. And with my children and with my wife, he'd follow me around America, as I gave talks at colleges and cities and so on. And I just never ended up saying no more than I said yes.

Matthew 8:19
And so, what is it like, Tim, having a film crew come into your life like this? I mean, following your every move, they see your trials and travails of the creative process. They witness the challenges of family life. I mean, you must have thought this is just too much at some point.

Tim O'Brien 8:37
If it hadn't been Aaron, I certainly would have. On a personal level, we have a lot in common. There's an age difference, but we share a great deal. We care, especially about art, trying to make something beautiful. He cares about filmmaking, I care about fiction. That's a pretty strong bond. And there were times when it felt a little intrusive. I remember at one point, I was having a, I wouldn't say a fight in the physical sense, but a pretty earnest argument with my two kids about video games. I had threatened to ban them in the house permanently and never allow them access to a computer or an iPhone or an iPad ever again. So, this discussion, which went on probably for an hour or more, at times got, I wouldn't say angry, but right on the edge of anger. And Aaron was there. Not really filming much, a little bit at the beginning of it. He gently left the room, actually went outside while the argument continued. By and large, though, that was rare, that kind of feeling. It felt comfortable having Aaron around.

Matthew 10:00
Yeah. Well, that says a lot about the relationship. But I will say it also seems very natural and comfortable, the snippet of that argument, as you put it, that we see - I've had the exact same argument. I think I've come back with the same thing: You're not going to get, you're not going to get to - I may not have said two years, but it was probably a year or several months, you know. So, it's very, very real to life, I felt. And Aaron, what was it like for you? I mean, we get snippets too, that it's obviously trying for the subject to have this camera following them around. And I don't know, maybe sometimes, in theory, a cantankerous writer battling time, you know, what's it like for the filmmaker to document this?

Aaron Matthews 10:48
Like Tim said, we share so much in common; and one of the big things we share in common, in addition to, you know, taste in movies and books and art, is our families. We both have two young kids roughly the same age. So, we were both going through the family journey at the same time. And I think it's one of the special things you see and get to experience watching this film is that you have a great artist. And so many of the stories we were told about great art being made are of these like unencumbered geniuses who don't have to worry about money and family and all the things that regular people have to worry about. And Tim in the film isn't afraid to show in a very personal and honest way that he's encumbered. You know, and I think a lot of people can relate to it. How many of us have had that iPhone video game conversation, you know? And I think it's a relief to a lot of people say, oh, wow, you know, Tim O'Brien has that talk also. Greens are driving him crazy as well.

Intro 12:04
Yeah, I think there's quotes from the film too, I think, Tim, you say, you know, life gets in the way. Here's a perfect example, the phone rings, I personally was on the phone with the tumble dryer repairman today, you know, these sorts of things happened. I mean, that's life. Tim, what did your family think about all this, your sons in particular?

Tim O'Brien 12:27
Oh, my sons were at first astonished that anybody would want to take a picture of me, much less film me. Why do they want to look at you? And I pretty much agreed with them. Ah, it was a sore point. This ‘why do it?’ sort of thing. I kept telling Aaron that even a documentary requires a certain amount of drama, of contention and struggle, and so on. And Aaron said wisely, don't worry, it's going to come. And it did. And the item you just mentioned is one of those things, the intrusions that life presents. Aaron, for example, we were going to film in a small town near Austin, Texas. And we were getting in my car and the car started - kind of - and began to... I was at the wheel, Aaron beside me, and the car rolled out of the driveway but without any steering. And a fan belt had broken, the power steering was gone, and the car sort of just rolled out into the street and wouldn't go any farther than that. So, he followed me inside and filmed me calling mechanics and tow trucks and all the rest. It's an example of what happens a lot. And when you read biographies of writers, you rarely get these petty little trivial trespasses on, on life that get in the way of what you really want to do. In this case, we were going to go film, you know, a scene for his movie. It happens all the time, though, when I'm working on a book. The phone will ring, and it'll you know, be the swimming pool guy saying there's no water left in your pool, it's all out in the golf course. And then you spend the next six weeks trying to get your pool fixed. Things like this happen. And it's, I think it's interesting to make writers human, to watch the joy of making a piece of work, but also the ordinary encumbrances of life itself as they intrude on it and make it difficult to do it. Certain things you just have to pay attention to. And you know, one of them is you know, if your toilets are overflowing, you got to fix them.

Matthew 14:52
Yeah. And I think Aaron, I mean, this - we do gain so - as you've already mentioned - I think this film brilliantly captures a lot of insights into the creative process. Like you say, there's this sort of stereotype of the, I don't know, author cranking out 1000s of words a day or something, or has it all structured, gets up at six in the morning, has his coffee and gets a few, several pages written or a chapter written. But that doesn't happen, does it? It's certainly not in Tim's case. But I think there's - you even have this great scene with Ben Fountain even, where he is discussing some of these same issues.

Aaron Matthews 15:29
Definitely. And it's something that just as a filmmaker, I found particularly gratifying, not just to see somebody else struggle in the misery, loves company kind of way, being able to watch Tim's process. And basically, once we started the film, which was like five years ago now, and Tim committed to writing the book, which by the way, at the outset, there was no promise that he was going to finish it. He really - I actually genuinely thought he wasn't going to finish the book. And I was just going to have an ambiguous ending, and I was kind of relaxed; it took a lot of the pressure off me in the beginning, I was thinking like, okay, this film will take me like the next 15 years, I'll work on a bunch of other projects in the meantime. I'll just be able to do it in my spare time. And suddenly, like at the midway point, I show up and Tim has written, you know, 150 pages, and he tells me, he's turned on the gas and like, holy shit, like this is actually happening, he's gonna finish this thing. And right at that point, it was like, we were kind of on concurrent paths. And being able to watch, you know, and be with a master storyteller as you're trying to tell your own story about the master storyteller. There was, there was undue pressure on me for sure. But I also learned a lot, just little things about writing. I remember one time I asked Tim how he came up with dialogue. And he said, the purpose of dialogue - one of the purposes of dialogue is to discover your story. And that whole idea of, you know, I love the way he framed that. That, you know, we're constantly discovering our story as you're writing it. That's another kind of misconception I think we have about writing an art that it's a cycle. It's done, it's in the head, it's all mapped out, and then the artist just kind of, you know, spits it out. And I really could relate to that as a documentary filmmaker, because all that time that you spend, following the characters in your film around, or the people who you're making the film about, is a process of discovery, you know. A process of trying to figure out, you know, what am I doing with this plan that I have, which is ever evolving? And I found that really fascinating. I learned so, so much being around Tim, and I'm extremely grateful.

Matthew 17:50
Well, as someone who's had the privilege of seeing the film, I agree. I agree. I think I learned a lot too. I think, and I want to say spoiler alert, I mean, it is dramatic. Your thinking, I mean, even if you've googled it and you know that the book's come out and everything. I kept thinking the book’s not going to get made. I mean, Tim, you said that it's gonna take you another 10 years, I think, at one point. But in terms of your experience, I know you say you don't really like talking about writing but is your, are your struggles typical, you think for most authors? Do people, you know, I think Meredith, your wife mentions even he hasn't really written much the last few months. Ben Fountain's on there, says he just keeps slogging away. It's a hard slog, I think. This is more typical than the stereotype that we have of the authors, isn't it?

Tim O'Brien 18:46
I think so. Yeah. I said so, it is pretty typical. I might take typicality to an extreme. I'm extremely slow writer, for example. I will work on a sentence, sometimes for an entire day, or certainly a paragraph. It's a rare day when more than a paragraph is finished. And even when it's finished, I'll end up tossing it out. Because later in the story, I won't need it, or it contradicts something later in the story. So, it's constantly, as Arron put it, it's evolving. And I am discovering the story, as I think most writers do. I think that is typical. You may set out with a plan. Now Jack falls in love with Jill and they go on a honeymoon, and the yacht sinks and Jack takes the only life preserver and ends up bobbing alone at his dead wife floating nearby. But as the story is told, you know, you discover new things about your character, from what they say and what they do. A friend of mine John Irving, the novelist, described it as little Gremlins popping into your story, and sort of taking it over. As you write a piece of dialogue, what you write is not what you would plan to write. Word choice is different, the meaning becomes different. And you stare at it and you say, wow, that's unexpected and it also sounds good. Sounds like real human speech. Which is often unexpected. We sometimes say things as I'm doing right now, that I sure as hell hadn't planned to say, five seconds ago. But here I am talking. And you discover things out of what you say. It's one of both the joys and the great troublesome aspects of doing what I do, of writing a book. You can only plan so much. And then the characters and the situation, the drama of the story takes command of you. And you're more following it, than composing it, you’re trying to catch up with where the story is going.

Matthew 21:04
I mean, individual words, the words you use are very important, aren’t they? I imagine that’s why, you know, maybe to the average ear, you may not even hear sometimes a slight difference, but the difference that, especially in English, I think, especially, there’s this, each word has this just different kind of, slightly different connotation that makes a whole difference.

Tim O‘Brien 21:27
Sure does. I mean, every noun matters, every verb, every comma matters, every period. Periods matter to a writer. When there is a conclusive aspect to an utterance that doesn’t ramble on and on. Or, in some cases, you want a character to ramble on and on, in which case you have dashes and commas. It’s the voice that you’re listening to in your head, as you’re, you know, composing dialogue, or as you’re doing narration and so on. You’re listening to something inside you and you’re listening to more than one voice, you’re listening to myriad voices, a whole orchestra full of voices in your head, only one of which is your own.

Matthew 22:12
And Aaron, I think, what Tim was saying about writing is, as he’s already alluded to, and we know that certainly in this era of documentary, but I think it’s probably always been true, you have to have a story. You have to have drama, and tensions and things like that to make a good doc. But is it, I mean, I would do some work with a production company here. And they do, you know, that’s always gets stressed, you know, but the reality is, once the cameras roll, that story starts, that changes for the filmmaker as much as it can change for the writer, can’t it?

Aaron Matthews 22:46
Yeah, for sure. And, you know, Tim was aware of that from the beginning, telling me, ‘there are no stakes here, you know’, he kept, the running joke was, ‘I have to die in order for this film to be a film!’. You know, and Tim was there smoking away, which was the other reason I really wanted to do this film, was that every time I film there was, you know, it was very cinematic with smoke.

Matthew 23:15
It's film noir almost, wasn't it?

Aaron Matthews 23:17
Exactly, yeah. But I think, you know, what Tim wasn't accounting for, when he would kind of scold me for saying, like, we need a story with stakes, where, you know, something, it needs to be life and death, it's how compelling honesty is, you know, for people. And how rare a thing it is to hear people and be living with people who speak from the heart about those big game issues - about love and death, about the issues that really matter to us. And like Tim said, I'll give away another spoiler, but Tim almost dies in the film, you know? So, the theme of mortality is very much in the film. And there are these big issues, war, art, family, love, death, you know. But because it's Tim O'Brien, he's able to kind of bring these issues down to a very human level. And put those kind of perfect words that you were talking about in a way that, you know, make it accessible.

Matthew 24:24
I completely agree. And I think that brings us to a good point to maybe interject here with a clip. And actually, we'll go to a quick break as well. But over that break, we'll also play a clip, which is one where, I think Tim is, not sure if it's something that you've, pretty sure it's something you've written, but then at the end, basically saying, it's about Vietnam and your experiences there. And then 50 years on, being, thinking back, did I actually, finishing that paragraph and did I actually serve in that war? I think it's kind of the gist of it. I'm not getting it completely right. But... Yeah, why don't we go to that, we'll go to that clip and we'll be right back with Tim O'Brien and Aaron Matthews.

Tim O'Brien 25:21
It was early in my tour. We went across this rice paddy. And we immediately took sniper fire. Their world just exploded in our faces. And then a hand grenade came sailing out of the brush. You can see the fizzling. It was so fast. So scary. So unreal. And what is overwhelming in memory really is nothing but the grenade keeps coming out, and it won't stop. After a lapse of 10 or 20 centuries, the grenade detonates. And yet everything that is happening, isn't happening. Because it absolutely and positively cannot be happening. The bee sting sensation in my left hand, a kid named Clausen holding his stomach, somebody shouting, but not shouting words, shouting lizard shouts. And then another bee sting and all around me and above me there are the unzipping sounds of eternity passing by. These are bullets, I'm pretty sure. And then, nearly 50 years later, I light a cigarette and take a breath and stare down at this paragraph and think, Christ, was I in a war?

Factual America midroll 26:55
You're listening to Factual America, subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter at Alamo Pictures to keep up to date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.

Matthew 27:14
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with legendary author Tim O'Brien and award winning director and producer Aaron Matthews. The film we're discussing today is The War and Peace of Tim O'Brien. It's releasing on March 2, and you can see it pretty much wherever you stream films, we gather. If nothing else, Google it. I'm sure you'll find it. Jonny Diamond at The Literary Hub says "The War and Peace of Tim O'Brien follows O'Brien on the journey of his last book, as he reveals the everyday ties between duty, art, family and the trauma of war." Aaron, you've already talked about the big themes that the film deals with. What makes wars worth fighting? How do we write about war? What are the obligations of citizens with respect to war? What are the after effects of war on individuals and families? And I think there's a few more themes than that, I would argue, that's worth discussing. But we've just seen this clip about, I think it goes back to sort of the discussion we were having about the creative process. And Tim, what was it like not to write for nearly 17 years, as someone who is an author and a writer?

Tim O'Brien 28:29
Well, it was mostly a joy to be relieved of that constant, 15 hours a day word processor, a computer. I had two children, I love them, and I wanted to be around them and help them live their lives and grow. There was all the time. throughout those 17 years, there was this aching sense of guilt, that I ought to be squeezing in 20 minutes or half hour a day and writing a story. But the guilt would vanish and go away for a while and then come back an hour later. But it did nag at me. I wanted to somehow balance being a good father with at least writing occasionally. But as we spoke about earlier, life just kept intruding. Kids got the flu or colds or had to be taken to school or picked up at school. And we had to eat so there were grocery stores to visit and all those things. I really now can't recall how it was that I even embarked on this latest book. I know my wife had wanted me to, to write about being a father. And wanted me to write even more especially about being an old man with two young kids, what that felt like. And the burdens of your approaching mortality. No one lives forever. And I would begin imagining my kids without a dad at age, you know, 18 or 21, or 23. And gradually, I became convinced that I ought to be leaving for my children, at least a mark of their dad's love on paper. Something that I wish my own father might have left for me. Just a simple words on a piece, scrap of paper – ‘I love you, dad’. And I did that in 300 and some 50 pages in my new book, a lot of marks. It was written as a gift to my children, really. And it wasn't a literary book, wasn't a commercial book, wasn't a parenting book. It was a bunch of love letters to my children, sometimes framed in story form. And sometimes just picking up an anecdote that they might have used and expanding on it. But in any case, the sense of silence for so long was finally overcome by what I consider to be an act of love.

Matthew 31:22
I think that's beautiful. And I think, at least personally, what I took out of this movie, as one of the main themes. And we'll talk about some of the other themes shortly, but I mean, I kept, it's about fatherhood, isn't it? Aaron, would you agree? Isn't that what this film is all about?

Tim O'Brien 31:38
Yes, I would agree.

Aaron Matthews 31:41
Fathers and sons. American fathers and sons.

Matthew 31:44
Yeah, Turgenev. Yes, I think, we had RJ Cutler, the documentary filmmaker, on earlier, he's done Belushi that's out now. And I was asking him about the genius of Belushi. And he said he was on a panel one time with historian and biographer, Walter Isaacson. And this came up, what makes the man, and he said in his best faux Southern accent – ‘it's all about daddy’. And, I mean, do you agree with that? Because that's something that comes out in here as well. I mean, you're talking about this love letter, Tim, that - love letters - to your sons. But I mean, is that, do we maybe, I don't know, this is not even in my notes, but do we maybe underestimate the importance that dads have on shaping their children's lives?

Tim O'Brien 32:39
Um, I'm not sure if we underestimate it or overestimate it. That's probably one of the problems of being a father, you can overestimate or underestimate your own importance for your own kid. There are times when I wonder if the kids even listen to the words coming out of my mouth, because they certainly don't do what I asked them to (laughter) unless they want to. And then other times, I'm shocked at how incredibly penetrating they've been about me. There's an anecdote in the book, and it also appears in record, it's referred to in Aaron's film, where we were on vacation in southern France, at a very ritzy resort, way beyond our means. And my wife and I are outside one day having a drink at a bar, and my kids were playing ping pong on a lawn outside. And my cell phone rang, it was my sister calling. And my mother had died. Halfway around the world. And I remember going over to the ping pong table to tell my kids what had happened. And then I remember for the next hour or two, maybe three hours just playing ping pong. With that ball going back and forth over that ping pong, tennis table net. Much like my brain was going back and forth with memories of my mom alive. And then the situation at this strange resort where everybody looked like George Hamilton, including like, the women looked like George Hamilton, bronzed and beautiful. And what a bizarre setting to be in, in a foreign culture with your mother dead on the other side of the world. Later, we walked down into the, a small village below the resort where we could eat cheaply. And on the way down a hill, with the Mediterranean down below, sun setting, I was holding my older son's hand. His name is Timmy. And at the time, he was probably eight, maybe seven years old, and I said to him are you thinking about grandma? And Timmy was silent for a moment. And then he looked up at me and said – ‘No, I'm thinking about you thinking about grandma’. Well, that is an example of what I meant by you're astonished. Seven or eight year old kid uttering those words of empathy and understanding that he was reading, he was inside my mind, imagining what must be happening in that ping pong feeling in my head. So, in that kind of case, it's hard, it's hard to overestimate what you can learn from your own children or deliver to your own children.

Matthew 35:55
I think that's incredible. And I think as fathers and anyone else who's on this, who's listening or watching, who's a parent will know, I think knows that feeling. I think we all have our, hopefully all have a similar story. Aaron, was this the intent to capture fatherhood, when you started this film?

Aaron Matthews 36:18
For sure. It was one of the big themes, you know. Because Tim is wrestling with his relationship with his own father, as he's writing this book to his children. So, fatherhood was very much an important part of the film, among many other themes.

Matthew 36:41
I think, some of the other themes, obviously, there's this, I don't want to shy away from it, obviously, and I think maybe it's a good time for another clip that we have. Which kind of goes back in time a little bit, because it's got a lot of archival with it, about, I know, Tim's frustrations, certainly, as you said, your period of not writing kind of, besides corresponding with fatherhood also corresponded with new wars in places like Afghanistan and Iraq. And I think it's, I think you're on C-SPAN where you're basically saying, you find this whole thing really sad, what's happening. I think that would be a good way of introducing maybe sort of another, maybe a little more discussion about sort of some of these themes that come up in the film. And so, if you don't mind, let's watch that or listen to that clip, and then we'll be right back with Tim and Aaron.

Tim O'Brien 37:49
When Vietnam collided with my life, I yearned for revenge against the cheerleaders and celebrators of war. Somehow, I imagined I would strike back with sentences. It was a ludicrous and naive fantasy. Sentences don't do shit.

Dick Cheney 38:31
There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. We must take the battles to the enemy.

Tim O'Brien 38:39
As a man who served in a war, watched death, looked at corpses day after day after day. I'm here to tell you. Be careful. Be cautious. Don't go killing people unless it's absolutely necessary. The whole purpose of my writing, at least in part was so people would think twice about going to war for silly reasons. I've been constantly disappointed.

Reporter 39:11
Coalition forces are battling an enemy determined and difficult to identify.

Tim O'Brien 39:19
I couldn't believe it. Sitting in my living room watching the wars happen in Iraq and Afghanistan, asking myself the same questions I asked about Vietnam. Why are we here? What are we accomplishing? I feel sad about the world. I feel sad about more war talk, more bodies. It's sad.

Matthew 39:49
Tim, do you still feel that way? I mean, you know, cuz Iraq and Afghanistan, so that was a time when they were still on the nightly news. They're not really anymore. I think it comes out in the film, that your frustrations about how we, American society, but just generally people see war. I think a very poignant thing for me was you talking about how we don't talk about the rectitude of wars anymore. Is this how, is this, these frustrations haven't gone away, have they?

Tim O'Brien 40:21
No, they'll never go away. Wars unlike pandemics are manmade. It's not some virus mutating and evolving and killing us. We're doing it to ourselves. A kind of mutual suicide that's been going on for centuries. I see no end to it. But that doesn't mean I can't be depressed by it, and saddened by it, and outraged by it. And I think if I were to choose one of those words, it would mainly be outraged. I find it outrageous that we can spend 15 years in Vietnam, killing 3 million people. And you go to a school in America and they know nothing about Vietnam War. Who won? They often don't know. I'm not exaggerating. It's sad that there are all these dead people and, you know, 45-50 years later, we don't remember what it was about, why it was fought, who won? What the issues were if they crossed anyone's mind at all. There's also the subterranean issue running beneath this, this current of man's seeming unappeasable appetite for killing people. It seems unappeasable. We'll do it and then not remember why. That's Vietnam. But it's also true of the Battle of Hastings, who remembers what that was all about? Very few people, even I suspect, even in the UK, understand much about the underlying causes. Was it a good war, bad war? Did the right people win the war? Was it worth fighting? Was it worth killing for? Was it worth dying in? Very few people recall. What about The Reconquista in Spain, lasting 700-800 years? 7 million dead people. I doubt more than, you know, eight percent of the people on the planet even heard the word Reconquista, much less know anything about it. So yeah, you can hear the outrage in my voice, it will not go away, and it shouldn't go away. There should, in fact, be more people outraged by this. But no; we watch our daily news. We might say, ‘boy, that's stupid’ to our wife, and then turn it off and, you know, go have a cocktail and forget it.

Matthew 42:53
In the film, you say, or maybe it's even part of the archival clip, you shouldn't fight for, I think you said a few times, that we shouldn't fight for stupid reasons. Are there ever any good reasons for a war?

Tim O'Brien 43:04
At the time, they're all good reasons to the people who were for the war. Hitler had good reasons. They were insane and evil, but to him they were good reasons. God's on everybody's side. That's a good reason. You're on the side of Allah and they're on the side of the Christian God, the Judeo-Christian God. They're on everybody's side. That's kind of the problem, I think. But there are these reasons that seem let's contain communism, that was the essential, ground level reason for the war in Vietnam, let's contain it spread. That's what John Foster Dulles, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon all proclaimed. Let's stop this evil from spreading. Well, now we have a brand new and that one seems to vanish from our perspective, we've forgotten about it, by and large, until Putin does something like he did yesterday. And then we remember. But yeah, all the reasons at the time, can be made to sound at least palatable, if not righteous. And they're made that, they're framed in such a way as to sound that way to a lot of people. The difficulty is, years later, decades later, or centuries later, the reasons don't stand up very well. In fact, they become so trivial as to have been forgotten. That's odd, to forget why 7 million people died.

Matthew 44:41
And specifically about the Vietnam War. I mean, I sometimes get the feeling that this is, for many Americans, they sort of see Vietnam... The thing is, instead of Vietnam being typical of wars, they see Vietnam as the anomaly almost. And that, you know, if generals are always fighting the last war or whatever they are doing and we as societies are doing, it's almost like, well just don't make that mistake anymore. And somehow this war is different. The next one is.

Tim O'Brien 45:12
Well, if you read Vonnegut Slaughterhouse Five, or you read Joseph Heller, Catch 22, the absurdities of it all were apparent, even in this righteous war, the both of those excellent writers. In part, I think that's what a fiction writer is for. It's to remind us of things that in our, in our childhood, we kind of knew instinctually, not in our heads, but just knew that you don't kill people for stupid reasons. That you don't do absurd things with your life. And I think Homer reminded us of that in The Iliad, that all that death going on on that... during the siege of Troy, with people listening to the gods egging them on, or, you know, bidding them adieu, either way, there's a certain craziness about it. I've often wished I could like spend 20 minutes with Homer just asking him a bunch of, a barrage of questions like, for example, do you Homer really believe that Zeus was talking to Achilles, do you really believe that? Or is that a metaphor or a symbol? Because you write it as it what's really happening. And I get a feeling sometimes that the presidents of the United States seem to believe that God is talking to them. At least, our most recent president, our most recently vacated president. Maybe evacuated is the better word.

Matthew 46:43
Yeah. Well, I think you're talking about those 20 minutes, I think some people could ask similar questions of you, about some of your work. What is really happening or not happening? But Aaron, just to sort of, I know you've, as you said, you met Tim, on this film you did on the draft. And what struck me is some of the points you said very early on. I mean, for most of us, I speak as an American are, you know, completely unaffected by these wars. You know, it's not like, I mean, as Tim was saying previous or he says in the film, there was this constant discussion about the rectitude of the Vietnam War. We know about World War Two and other wars, you know, society was affected, certainly here in the UK, obviously. But, you know, except for my, I mean, I have to say, I have a brother who's served several tours in Afghanistan and Iraq. If it weren't for him, I think I would have... and, if I didn't follow the news, necessarily I wouldn't, you know, life was going on as if there was nothing happening. Is that something you capture in your film on the draft?

Aaron Matthews 47:49
Yeah. And it really was the motivation, one of the original motivations for making this film. When Tim talks about people, you know, like you were saying, people just going about their daily lives and not being affected by the war - that was me, you know. I was living in that bubble. And in a sense, that still is me. It's very easy in America, not to, to remain unaware and unaffected by the wars that we are waging right now, that are happening right now. And I wanted, you know, it was kind of this unveiling for me, being around Tim and hearing him break it down. And it made me want to kind of spread the gospel in that way. And you know, explore America's fraught relationship with the war and the military. And Tim, seemed to me someone who was perpetually grappling with something we should all be wrestling with. You know, what does it do to live in a highly militarized nation, engaged in military action around the world with a culture and politics so revolved, so steeped in war, which we are in America? You know, what does that do to us as a people? What does it do to us as individuals?

Matthew 49:14
I think, and Tim mentioned it briefly earlier, and I was curious, because, as you said, now that I think about it, certainly, it comes out in the language and how we describe things. And we may not, in this last year or so, been talking too much about military conflicts, but we've got COVID-19 and we keep hearing about a war against an invisible enemy.

Aaron Matthews 49:44
That's a great example. You know, so many of the metaphors that we use, in general are connected to war. And, you know, like you said, we're on a battlefield with this virus. And battle politicians are in their bunkers, running campaigns to mount defensives. And our nurses and doctors are on the frontlines. And again, like what does that do, to have this thing - war that is so brutalizing, as Tim points out in the film, to make it so much of our lives? And also, what does it, what does it do to our response to these things? Whether it's a pandemic, or just everyday matters. When we apply war to the way we think about them. You know, do we want to respond to every one of our...

Matthew 50:32
--- crisis

Aaron Matthews 50:33
--- obstacles or, yeah, crises in our life as if it's a war? Is that the best response?

Matthew 50:39
Tim, what do you think?

Tim O'Brien 50:42
Everything Aaron just said I agree with – that, do we want to? The answer is I don't know. I think that's why Aaron framed that as a question. If I were to guess. Knowledge is imperfect. But I'd say probably not. Probably that should not be the governing metaphor that we use in so much of our lives - the war on poverty, the war on drugs, the war on terror. It goes from the petty to the you know, the big, massive warfare. But it's applied to so many aspects of our life in America, in many cases, governing metaphor for much of what we do. And my guess would be that's not healthy. That it's a learned tradition, I believe, the one stretching way back. But it would be best, I think, if we were to at least ameliorate it, to find other metaphors to talk about our lives and our problems, whether they're crises or just problems. And to try not to frame them in terms that are essentially... war means killing people. That's what a real war is. And by somehow, getting that violent aspect into our discussions about petty problems, using it as a metaphor, just strikes me as unhealthy.

Matthew 52:04
And do you think it, I'm going to struggle with the right word, but do you think it belittles what you and others went through in terms of your experiences, going through a real war?

Tim O'Brien 52:15
I think even the word war, belittles what we went through. It's such an abstract word, it's almost without meaning. Because it's been stretched over such a wide terrain of experience. I think we ought to dispense with the word war. And we ought to, in every... wipe it from Shakespeare, wipe it from my books, wipe it from newspapers and magazines and substitute the words ‘killing people, including children’. So, instead of declaring war in Congress, you declare we're gonna kill people, including children, and you have to utter those words. Otherwise, it's just, it's become a kind of euphemism. It's so abstract to those who haven't been in it. And it kind of, it kind of whitewashes the experience of death, of witnessing death and participating it and watching it happen, of almost dying oneself, or of dying oneself. It's such an abstract word, that unless you're actually engaged in it, it doesn't have, it doesn't approximate the actual event of it all. This is true not just of soldiers. They're among the victims of war. But what about their wives? And what about their children? What about their neighbors and friends and the people who have to live with them? In some ways, a gold star mother, a mother who's lost a child in war, is more of a victim of war than the person who died. Because the person who died is dead, doesn't worry about it any longer. But the mother carries it into old age and will jerk awake at two in the morning and ask where her kid is. And her kid's been dead for 50 years. That's, that's a burden. It's a little bit... that encompasses what I was trying to say about this word war itself, it really has a euphemistic quality, that's bothersome to me.

Matthew 54:23
Well, I think, I will still use the word cause I'm not very good with words.

Tim O'Brien 54:29
Oh, I just did too.

Matthew 54:31
But, you know, I think a really poignant, well, there's many poignant parts of this film. But the thing that I had never really thought of is this idea of the after effects of war on individuals and families. And as you said, you've already mentioned the gold star mother, but as you mentioned, long after you're gone, the ghost of the Vietnam War specifically will be passed on to your sons.

Tim O'Brien 54:59
Yes. Alas, that's true. They call it, when I blaze out and I go back in memory for an instant or two at the dinner table, or just sitting with my kids. They recognize that I've left and they know where I've gone in my head briefly. I can't say it happens a lot. That would be an exaggeration, but it happens occasionally every month or two. And they know it, and they recognize it, and they fall silent. And they give me the peace to remember and feel bad. But yeah, they're gonna be the inheritors of the Vietnam War. And they already are in a lot of ways. They're intellectually not too interested in it. But emotionally, they're engaged in it, because they live with a guy who was in it.

Matthew 55:54
You've just raised that point. And I was going to ask you, because it's been a few years now. Is Timmy, what about, 18 now?

Tim O'Brien 56:01
17.

Matthew 56:01
17, so have they started showing any interest, yet? Have they started asking you questions about the war?

Tim O'Brien 56:09
Finally, Timmy has. It's taken a long, long time. But he's now embarked on reading two books, in preparation, really for going to college next year. One of them is The Things They Carried that I wrote. And another is Slaughterhouse Five by Vonnegut, Kurt Vonnegut. It wasn't until very, very recently, maybe the last three, four weeks that I began getting inklings when he'd come up to me at night and say, ‘what do you recommend I read?’ I have recommended he not read The Things They Carried until he's old enough to withstand the frustrations of that book. What's real, what's not real? What happened? What didn't? There's a lot of frustrations for young readers with that book that later on are not quite as frustrating. But now we get, he is interested. And that's a kind of relief, because I have been bellyaching to Aaron for five years. Why don't they want to read my books? What's wrong with these kids? I'm their father. If my dad were Ernest Hemingway, by God, I'd have read The Sun Also Rises by now or something!

Matthew 57:28 What's funny, my kids don't even watch this podcast. I don't know if they've even seen an episode, but that's...

Tim O’Brien 57:31 That's gotta hurt. It's the same story.

Aaron Matthews 57:34
My kids don't watch my films. I'll just join, then. Join the club.

Matthew 57:42
Yeah, it does remind me... Yes, well, it's not even a story I need to share just, I had an old boss at The Economist who one time said, we were both heading home after a trip to North Canada, actually. And he said, ‘how old are your kids?’ And I think they’re at that point, they’d have been like three and four, my older two. And he's like, ‘Oh, you're still at that age where they're happy to see you. I come home, and I'm lucky if I get a grunt’, you know.

Aaron Matthews 58:10
Me too.

Matthew 58:13
We've just spent a lot of time talking about, I'm gonna use that word war. Another thing that comes out in the film is, you note, you didn't use the word curse, but you said sort of... you know, that you're going to be described as a war writer in your obit. And we know it's obviously served as a backdrop, you obviously write about a lot of different themes. And, you know, I think as you would tell us, and probably tell your students at Texas State, you write about what you know, and your experiences, and that serves as a background. But how do you, I mean, if you were to be able to write that obit, what would you want to be remembered for?

Tim O'Brien 58:58
As a writer, writer. I doubt Joseph Conrad's, an English writer as you know, I doubt that his obit began - Joseph Conrad, the great ocean writer died this morning at age whatever. He wouldn't be described as an ocean writer, though many of his stories, if you know, not only set on the ocean, the sea but had their sources of passion coming from his experience, but he wasn't called an ocean writer. Philip Roth is not described as a suburb writer, though most of his stories... nor is Updike. Toni Morrison, American Nobel Prize winner, I think would be aghast if she has been described as a black writer or African American writer, this kind of racial box you're put in. She would yell at you, I'm almost sure were she a living, she would yell. ‘I'm a writer, writer’. It's a strange pigeonholing that goes on. It's largely commercial in its source. Its first thing said about a book, how do we describe it on the cover of a book or in a film? That said, it's inevitable that it's going to happen, that would be my obit, you know? And I'm resigned to it. It's not life or death to me. Um, I don't like it. But I don't like death itself. And I'm going to die someday. I can't do a whole lot about it.

Matthew 1:00:36
Except, certainly write about it.

Tim O'Brien 1:00:39
Except write about it. Yeah.

Matthew 1:00:43
I think, actually, I may even have overrun a little bit. I think we're coming... hard for me to believe at least, maybe not for you. But we're coming to the end of our time together, gentlemen. And it's been a thrill having you on. Aaron let Tim do a lot of the talking here, of late. But maybe you can say more, if you want to say anything more about this project? Or maybe you can tell us about what is, what's next for you.

Aaron Matthews 1:01:15
I'm happy to have Tim grab the microphone as he should. Well, the other thing I would just say, we've dealt with heavy, the heavy themes of the film. And one thing you get out of this film that I just like people to know, is that like, as you maybe can tell from this podcast, Tim is extremely warm and funny. And it's why, it's the other reason why I wanted to make the film. The first time I interviewed him, he had me like, crying but also laughing. You know, we share a kind of dark sense of humor, and he's got a gallows humor that is running, running joke, running humor throughout the film. He's got a really warm... two kids, warm family, two boys who are adorable and whip smart and you'll get to meet them in the film. And yeah, I guess the other thing I would say is that, you know, especially we're living in dark days right now. And Tim is a good companion. I think that people will find some comfort in kind of sharing the struggles of life with someone who has, who had his own share of struggles and has embraced struggle, I think almost as a way of life. It's, the struggle is to, to live and to live is to care and all of that is a burden, but it's almost not worth living without it.

Matthew 1:02:46
I think you raise an excellent point, and can I second that? Not too many documentaries, I laugh out loud, especially ones that have such serious topics interweaved through the through the narrative. And I will say I did. I don't want to give anything away. But I definitely was more than just chortling. I love the scene at the gas station. I think that's, you know, that's just typical of a lot of stuff that goes on in that film. Little things too. You zoom in on a coffee mug with a funny message on it. I won't say what it says. I mean, it's not because it's a family program. I will say that, you know, for those sensitivities about profanity, maybe you might want to steer clear for parts of the film. I don't know. But it is extremely warm. I think it's very, it's amazing, I think what you've captured. I think it's amazing, Tim, that you've opened up your life to us like this, and I think we will all be, we all are appreciative for that.

Aaron Matthews 1:03:54
Yeah, we owe him a debt of gratitude, for sure. Because that intimate feeling you get in the film is really because of Tim and Meredith and Timmy and Tad, you know.

Matthew 1:04:05
And I've got to think, once this thing goes, start streaming and people start seeing it. I mean, it's just got, it's not that it had a low profile, you've been to some festivals and things like that and been selected. I've already alluded to some articles that have been written, but I just got to think it's one of these, I hate to put it this way, this is not what a filmmaker wants to hear, but it's one of these hidden gems at the moment. It soon will not be hidden anymore. And Tim, maybe I can ask you one last question, if you don't mind. Is Dad's Maybe Book really your last book?

Tim O'Brien 1:04:42
Well, I thought so. I thought that up with every book. Perhaps not. I am 74 years old, and God knows what will happen, as soon as this podcast is over. I may drop dead and I probably will.

Matthew 1:04:57
Well I'm glad we got it in the can.

Tim O'Brien 1:04:59
But if that doesn't happen, there may be another.

Matthew 1:05:04
Yeah. Well, I sure hope there is. And I have to admit, hands up. I haven't read Dad's Maybe Book yet. But based on the certainly, I've had the privilege of reading some of your, some your other stuff. But I have to say, based on the comments I've seen online in various places, it's definitely one that I'm going to pick up. And so, I'll just draw a line right there. Thank you, both of you. Tim O'Brien, Aaron Matthews, it's been a pleasure having you on. We'd love to have you on again, if we haven't scared you off. And if there's maybe The War and Peace of Tim O'Brien Part Two, or if there is, whatever, if you can imagine that. So anyway, to our listeners and viewers - yes, that's the film we've been talking about. I want to give a thanks also to This Is Distorted studios, here in Leeds, England. Nevena Paunovic, our podcast manager who ensures we continue getting such great guests, such as Tim and Aaron, onto the show. And a big thanks to our listeners. We've certainly built up quite an audience in the last, well, last year or so and thankful for your loyalty as well as your feedback whether it's on YouTube, social media or directly by email, keep the comments and episode ideas coming. It is very much appreciated. And as always, please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America signing off.

Factual America Outro 1:06:41
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures, specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at Alamo Pictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk

Tim O'Brien: The Final Book on the Vietnam War

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