Billie Eilish: A Portrait of the Artist
In the blink of an eye, Billie Eilish has gone from being an aspiring musician to a five-time Grammy Award winner and global superstar with a multimillion-fan following on social media.
Brilliantly capturing this incredible journey in his new documentary, award-winning director RJ Cutler returns to the podcast to discuss Billie Eilish: The World’s a Little Blurry (2021).
Inspired by musicals, concert films and observational cinema, the film takes an intimate look at Billie Eilish’s remarkable rise to superstardom.
RJ spent a year with Billie Eilish and her family, and what he found was an extraordinary teenage artist creating remarkable music with her brother Finneas. He also found a young woman in full control of her career with the support of those who love and respect her.
Available to stream exclusively on Apple TV+ from February 26th 2021, this film is destined to become an instant classic to be revisited for many years to come.
“She’s demanding, she’s exacting, she displeases herself. Did we just describe the teenager or the artist? - R.J. Cutler
Time Stamps:
03:40 - What the audience can expect to see in Billie Eilish: The Word's a Little Blurry.
05:21 - How content RJ is with the final result of the film.
06:09 - The year of Billie’s life captured in the film.
10:53 - The film's incredible concert footage.
14:13 - What type of audience Billie has, and the connection she has with them.
16:55 - How Billie is a genuine person rather than a created persona.
17:30 - How RJ got involved with the project.
20:58 - The innate directing skills Billie has.
24:13 - What RJ thought he would capture before shooting began.
26:50 - The amount of change that is going on in Billie’s life at the moment.
34:38 - How RJ realised on his first day of filming that Billie really was the boss.
42:06 - How Billie’s story and her art are both specific and universal.
47:45 - What is next for RJ?
Resources:
Billie Eilish: The World's a Little Blurry (2021)
DA Pennebaker's Dont Look Back on Factual America
Belushi: The Brilliance and Tragedy of a Comedy Genius on Factual America
Connect with R.J. Cutler:
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10 Best D.A. Pennebaker Documentaries: Unveiling Cinematic Gems
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 49 - Billie Eilish: A Portrait of the Artist
R. J. Cutler 0:00
I'm R. J. Cutler. I am the director, writer and producer of Billie Eilish: The World's a Little Blurry.
billie eilish 0:07
My Invisalign has...
Speaker 1 0:09
I have taken out my Invisalign
billie eilish 0:10
I have taken out my Invisalign and this is the album. (laughter)
Good morning! This is my parents bed and I sleep in here because I'm scared of monsters.
Speaker 2 0:27
Today's the day to celebrate.
billie eilish 0:28
We made this album in a bedroom in our house we grew up in. So it's really like, anything is possible.
Unknown Speaker 0:35
I honestly don't know how any artists of any age is doing it without a parent.
billie eilish 0:43
Is that million?
Speaker 1 0:44
Yeah.
billie eilish 0:44
Oh my god.
(song plays) Step on the glass, staple your tongue (Ahh)
Bury a friend, I wanna end me
Bad. Again.
I wanna end me. I wanna end me. Boom.
(song plays) For the debt I owe, gotta sell my soul 'Cause I can't say no, no, I can't say no.
Sounds pretty horrible.
Speaker 1 1:14
I think it sounds kind of awesome.
billie eilish 1:16
It's pretty bad.
Speaker 2 1:22
It is a horrible time to be a teenager. Kids are depressed.
(song playing) Quiet when I'm comin' home and I'm on my own.
billie eilish 1:30
I look into the crowd and I see every single person in there is going through something.
(song playing - I could lie, say I like it like that, like it like that).
And I have the same problem. (song playing - I could lie, say I like it like that, like it like that).
And I was like, why don't I turn this into art instead of just living with it.
Hey, you guys need to be okay. Cuz y'all are the reason I'm okay.
Speaker 5 2:00
You have to have faith. You have to do your best. Live your best life. Cuz what else?
billie eilish 2:07
(song) I could lie, say I like it like that, like it like that
Speaker 5 2:15
Billie Eilish: The World's a Little Blurry. Streaming exclusively on Apple TV+ February 26.
Intro 2:22
That is the trailer for the documentary Billie Eilish: The World's a Little Blurry, streaming exclusively on Apple TV+ from February 26. And this is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo pictures, a London based production company making documentaries about America for international audiences. Today you're in for a treat. We're talking about Grammy Award winning teenage pop sensation, Billie Eilish, specifically the documentary about her that will be released on February 26. And it is our pleasure then to welcome back legendary award winning director R.J. Cutler to talk about Billie Eilish and his groundbreaking film. R.J., welcome back to Factual America.
R. J. Cutler 3:04
Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.
Matthew 3:06
Well, it's great to have you on. Again, the film that we've heard and seen a trailer Billie Eilish: The World's a Little Blurry, once again, releases on February 26. Streaming exclusively on Apple TV+. I understand there's also a theatrical release. Is that right?
R. J. Cutler 3:22
Sure is, yeah. Our partners at Neon are releasing throughout the world. And it's in IMAX theaters all over the world. I think they've got big plans. So as COVID regulations allow, there'll be opportunities to see it in movie theaters and also, of course, to watch it on Apple TV+.
Matthew 3:46
I had the opportunity to watch it on a laptop but I can only imagine what this thing would be like an IMAX.
R. J. Cutler 3:53
The sound is sick. The sound is sick, really. And we got to mix it on a beautiful old soundstage at Sony, over the holidays, so nobody was there. The lot was empty. And there we were in the Burt Lancaster soundstage. It was crazy. And it sounds like you wouldn't believe it, really. And Aron Forbes, who's Billie's music director oversaw the mix of her performances, and was just a genius and it was a thing of beauty.
Matthew 4:30
Well, even just on my little headphones, it was amazing. I mean, hands up. I've probably didn't have knowingly necessarily listened to Billie Eilish in my life, but I was blown away by the music and the sound. Well, thanks so much for coming onto the podcast again. You've won many awards and accolades, but just so you know, you're the first person to be a repeat guest on Factual America.
R. J. Cutler 4:57
Well, that will now be at the top of the list of accomplishments.
Matthew 5:03
We'll have to make a little statuette or something and send it.
R. J. Cutler 5:06
Well. Thank you.
Matthew 5:09
RJ, I'm glad you accepted. And do accept my compliments, because I'm not just saying this. I think you've outdone yourself this time. What do you think? It's an incredible film.
R. J. Cutler 5:21
Ha ha. I love this film. I do. I'm very proud of it. I feel like, you know, Billie and her family gave us the great gift of trust, and giving us such unfettered access over really a full year. And then in handing over several hard drives of family archival material, and it's hard work to make a film that you like. But I worked with an incredible team of collaborators. And I'm just, yeah, we're really excited to share it with the world.
Matthew 5:58
Maybe you can, I mean, what are people going to see when they finally get to stream this doc. Just to give them a little taster of what they're in store for?
R. J. Cutler 6:09
Well, it is the story of a year in Billie Eilish's life and it's the year, it's her 17th year. So it happens to be the year that she writes and releases her debut album When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go. So you see the creation of that album, and you see what happens when it's released. But it's also the story of a young woman who is becoming, crossing the threshold between childhood and adulthood. And you see that. And it's very much a personal story. It's an emotional narrative. It's a family story. It's the story of two parents whose daughter is becoming Billie Eilish, and whose daughter is becoming Billie Eilish. And that's a beautiful thing. And also is a story full of drama and emotion. Then it's the story of two siblings, who have created something extraordinary together, Billie and Finneas, of course, for those who don't know, they co-write all their songs together, and they perform together. While Billie is the front man, Finneas is the producer. And it's a remarkable collaboration. And so you see all of that, and all of this, there are lots of twists and turns and, you know, it's a great yarn, I think, and a full meal. It's a two hour and 20 minute film there. There's performance, it's a musical, there's an intermission, you know. It's a good way to spend, it's a good way to spend the day or the night. It's a good way to spend the night. Billie suggests you get a blanket and light a candle and snuggle up with friends and family and that's the way she has suggested you watch it. I like the idea of folks seeing it in theaters or in front of the best TV in their house or with the best pair of headphones if they're watching on their computer so that they can appreciate the full beauty of the sound.
Matthew 8:25
Yeah, I'm looking forward to watching it a second time. Even I'm gonna get my teenagers to sit down and watch with me, something they don't usually do. I think they will, certainly will enjoy it. I mean, as you alluded to, not just alluded, mentioned, I mean, there's so much going on here. The album, amazing concert footage, the Coachella Music Festival. Even them recording the Bond theme was amazing sort of scenes or two.
R. J. Cutler 8:53
Yes, under a tight deadline.
Matthew 8:54
Yeah, exactly. I mean, we can talk more about that too. But as you said, we also watch her in everyday life. I mean, humble middle class bungalow that they live in, studying for her driving test. They record songs in Finneas's bedroom. I mean, that's, it's so normal.
R. J. Cutler 9:13
This is what I say. It's quite, it's really functioning on two planes. On some level, she's part deity and part human. And it's, you know, it's like the Superman story. She's very much, she's very much struggling and dealing and confronting all of the things that a 17 year old struggles with, deals with and confronts. And you see those things. And also she's writing about them, and she's sharing them with her audience, and she's creating great art and it's awesome to watch.
Matthew 10:00
I mean, yes. And you know, like you said, she's a teenager with teenage crushes. And then she gets to meet her teenage crushes in real life. So it's this two planes almost. She meets people like Katy Perry and Orlando Bloom, doesn't even realize it's Orlando Bloom, I must say I didn't at first either. Justin Bieber and others. And then there she is at home sleeping in her parents bed because she's scared of monsters as the trailer says and the film says. And having her brother tried to trick her into recording a hit song and things like this and the natural tensions that you get between creative forces. It is quite amazing to see. And then you've got this, I mean, amazing concert footage.
R. J. Cutler 10:50
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there is a lot of performance. My goal was kind of to create a musical. And for this to function as a musical so we were very deliberate in the pieces of music that we chose. The entire score is by Billie Eilish and Finneas. It is very, the underscoring is all taken from stems of their music. And we use that music as part of the narrative and the construct of the film. But then the songs that she sings, and there are, there are well over 20 performances in the film, are specifically chosen, both for their narrative and their emotional content. And sometimes we play those performances out and fold because that's what the narrative and the emotional moment in the film call for. And it's you know, so yeah, there's that whole other layer to it, in the way that with musicals, there's that whole other layer. And we film the performances in a very, in a way I think most viewers won't be familiar with. We kind of forego what has become the more kind of familiar swooping camera out a jib arm look that you recognize from so much concert footage that you see. And instead we're in an intimate space and an intimate moment with Billie. And in my direction to the DP was I want to feel her breathing on stage, I want the audience to connect with her emotionally in the same way that her audience is connecting with her emotionally and I want the film experience of her performance to be unique. So that even if you've seen her in concert, seeing her perform in the style that we filmed her in, would still be brand new to you. And I'm excited about what the results are.
Matthew 13:07
Yeah, I think you've captured some, she does a big stadium, she also does some venues that seem pretty intimate by comparison. And also, the thing that struck me was, I mean, I've been to my share of concerts way back when and festivals and whatever, but people know the words to the songs of their favorite artists, but I don't remember seeing an audience that seemed to be hanging on every single syllable of every word. Like they do it at her concerts. Was that your, that's what you capture, was that your experience?
R. J. Cutler 13:45
Yeah, Billie Eilish's connection to her audience is very deep and powerful. She speaks to it in the film, of course. She says that I don't think of them as my fans, I think of them as part of me. I think that what connects them and makes them part of each other is her art, her music, her words, her music, her performance. And people feel it very, very deeply. Of course, her audience is expanded. I think she had maybe 5 or 6 million followers on Instagram when I met her, probably fewer. And she now has I think 74-75 million. So her audience has certainly expanded with her enormous success of the last year. But that connection, I haven't seen it change. And it's, you know, it's look she carries the weight of her audience's pain and of her audience's joy even as she carries the weight of her own pain and her own joy. But this is who she is and you know, there's, I think a shamanistic element to it. I think there's, you know, it's big stuff. She's speaking to millions. And they're hearing her and they're feeling her and they're connecting with her. And that's just the way it is, you know, it's pretty special. It's pretty special.
Matthew 15:21
It's pretty amazing to watch, I must say. We're gonna go for an early break here and then we'll be right back with you R.J. to take that line of questioning further because I think it's a very interesting point.
Factual America midroll 15:35
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Matthew 15:54
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm with R.J. Cutler, award winning director, producer and writer of Billie Eilish: The World's a Little Blurry, streaming exclusively on Apple TV+ from February 26, limited theatrical release with Neon throughout, I shouldn't say limited, it's throughout the world actually.
R. J. Cutler 16:13
If your country has movie theaters, Neon's gonna get it into them.
Matthew 16:18
And if you've got IMAX, even better. Even my little town here in the UK has got an IMAX theater now. So I'm looking forward to that opening up again. So we've you know, you were on here before, we discussed Belushi, it's been a busy few months for you. We've talked about your mentor, DA Pennebaker, you know, Don't Look Back. But on that film, Bob Dylan creates this on screen persona, but can you speak to, with Billie Eilish, I get the feeling what you see is what you get?
R. J. Cutler 16:55
I believe so. In my experience, that is absolutely true. And you know, I like to point out it's very, the creation of a persona is a very challenging thing to pull off. Quite honestly I don't believe Billie has any interest in artifice. She is who she is. And I think that is a big part of her great appeal.
Matthew 17:18
And so how did you get involved? How does the middle aged man, award winning director get involved with a documentary about an up and coming, I mean, she'd kind of already arrived, but up and coming popstar, pop sensation?
R. J. Cutler 17:32
I recognize why you refer to me as a middle aged man. But the truth is that I identify as a teenage girl. And I shared that with Billie during our first meeting. And I think she appreciated that. So I was invited to meet with her and with her family. And went to their home in Highland Park, the very home you see in the film, and sat with them in their backyard and had a, you know, just a conversation not unlike this one, in which we talked about process and how I approach filmmaking, which is you know, very organic, very easy. You know, we don't really do anything, to be honest, we really just, our goal is to see things as clearly as possible and to, you know, we only want to film what would be happening, whether we were there to film it or not. And we aim to impact our environment as minimally as possible. And, you know, as I explained to people, I'm not looking to be a fly on the wall, I'm too big for that. I'm simply looking to, you know, for you to be as, hopefully, as comfortable with me and my crew as you are with anybody with whom you're fully comfortable being yourself. And that's our goal and our approach. And, you know, we don't want to film anybody who doesn't want to be filmed, or in circumstances where people are uncomfortable, and you know, sure enough, it turns out to be a very successful organic process, natural, that's easy for people. And it was a great meeting and I asked her what she thought, what would a film like her be like? And I had no idea, you know, what, I had no idea what to expect her response to be. And she said she thought it should be like The Office. Which is the TV series, the UK TV series that of course had so much success in the States in its adapted format and she's a huge fan of it. And it took me a minute to realize what she was referring to, and what I believed that she was referring to, there are characters, particularly the John Krasinski character, in the US version of The Office, who have a unique relationship to the camera. Occasionally they will glance to the camera and they will connect to the audience through the camera. And, as you know, having seen the film, there are a couple of moments, only a couple, but they are key moments where Billie has that relationship to the camera. And when she looks at you, the audience member, looking at her as if to say, I see you, I know you are there. I see you watching me, seeing me, connecting to me. Hello. And I was excited. I think so was she that we were able to include a few of those moments, very subtle at key times in the storytelling in the film.
Matthew? And, you know, so you had, must been a challenge, because as we find out she's an, more than just an aspiring director herself, isn't she?
R J Cutler? She's a great director. She's a great director. Yeah, she's got full vision, man. Like you see it, you see it in the film. One of the very first scenes, she's conceiving of the music video for When The Party's Over. And her detail, the specificity where the table leg is, how wide, where she wants the camera, how she wants the camera to move? How she doesn't want the camera to move. Don't zoom! Right?
Matthew 21:25
Yeah exactly. Don't be like those cheesy directors that zoom in.
R. J. Cutler 21:28
Yes. She's very specific. And she's great at it. And she's great at it. And, you know, there are those who believe that, you know, eventually her career will be as much about directing, as it is about creating music. I will tell you, what she didn't have any interest was directing a documentary. And when we met, we agreed that I would have final cut, it's a really important part of my process. It unburdens the subject. And credentializes the film as authentic. It's here I am, you know, when I have final cut, I get to come on your show, and say I have final cut. And that's the end of it. And so there isn't a question of if there's, you know, whatever, a filmmaker, it's not only the final cut of the film that I am in control of, this is the director's cut of the film. This is exactly the way I want the film to be. And perhaps given that or perhaps, given that documentary isn't really, you know, I know, she loved the Justin Bieber documentaries, but it's not like, it wasn't part of the discussion. What will this film be? How will, after we had that first meeting. You know, we agreed on approach, I think we agreed without saying it out loud, that we enjoyed each other's company, and we thought it would be fun to spend a year together and make some art in the way that we had agreed on the approach we would make some art together. And, you know, I knew she'd want to come to the mix and listen to her performances, because she said so that first time we met, and sure enough, she did. And it was great. It couldn't have been more gratifying. Of course she, I don't want to say of course, but the good news is she loved what she heard. But for all of her enormous directing talent, as I say she demonstrated pretty much zero interest in directing this film.
Matthew 23:54
Okay. I mean, so you had full access, you basically live with them for a year I think you've said. And you go on the road with them around the world. Did you have any idea where you're gonna, I mean when you do this, not just specific to this film, but when you start getting those cameras rolling, do you know what you're going to capture?
R. J. Cutler 24:14
No, this is the beauty. This is the beauty of what we get to do. Here's what we know we're going to capture - life. But what we don't know, because no one knows, is what life is going to bring you. You don't know and you know what, the story I always tell is, did we talk it may be, forgive me if we spoke about this before, but the great Wayne Gretzky, the hockey player. Do you know Wayne Gretzky? Wayne Gretzky was one of the greatest athletes who ever lived.
Matthew 24:46
I'm aware of him but our listeners...
R. J. Cutler 24:48
Your audiences might not be but he is the greatest hockey player to ever live and one of the greatest athletes to ever live and he, you know, ice hockey people skate around hitting a puck with their hockey stick, okay? And Gretzky never gave interviews. And one day he did deign to give an interview, he was at the height of his powers and the interviewer said, tell us great one, how is it, how do you do what you do? What is your secret? Tell us, tell us. And Gretzky said, well, it's quite simple. I just follow the puck. And we were like, Oh my God, he just follows the puck, everybody else is trying to get the puck to do what they want it to do. Gretzky just follows the puck. Well, that's our challenge, we have to follow the puck. We may want the story to go a certain way, but it doesn't matter what we want. And so we don't. We choose not to want. We choose simply to see as clearly as we can. And then, you know, then wonder what we'll see next.
Matthew 25:46
And then what you get to see, one of the many things we get to see, as you say, we get to see life, is you didn't know she was gonna go on to earn 5 Grammys. And, you know...
R. J. Cutler 25:57
I didn't know that her album was gonna be the number one album. We didn't know that her songs were gonna be number one songs, we didn't know. You know, there was a sense that this would be big, but there, I don't think anyone dared, on Grammy night, the hope was that she would win Best New Artist, and it wasn't a shoo in. There were some great new artists - Lizzo. Lizzo had, you know, had an amazing year. And not just the two of them. It was a highly competitive field for all of the awards. But this was Billie's year.
Matthew 26:31
What surprised you most as part of that year following her around?
R. J. Cutler 26:36
I think the thing that I had to catch up with was that, I'm not sure I've ever made a film about a subject whose life is changing so much every day. Every day, every week, every month was an astounding transformation. Listen, being 17, you know, starting at 16, becoming 18. There's a lot of change. But add that to being Billie Eilish before the album came out, Billie Eilish on Grammy night, there's so much transformation. And that means for those around her, there's so much transformation for her family for Finneas. For her parents, for her friends, for her team, just constant transformation. So we had to, we had to catch that. We have to realize, Oh, I see, everything's changing. Oh, it's changing again. Oh, you know. And that was a, that was an important part of the process, kind of, as I say, catching up to that fact.
Matthew 28:01
And as you've already said, I mean, you know, great documentaries are about so many things. And you've already mentioned a lot of that right at the beginning, from the get go, the big themes that are captured here and observed in the film. You know, we certainly see the creative process at work. Being a teenager in the 2020s, the music industry, social media, as we've alluded to. I mean, let's look at this. I think you did a very good job of documenting the, for lack of better way of putting it, the angst of the artist. I mean, she's a teenage girl, but you know, she has creative differences with Finneas at times. She hates her voice. She doesn't like what she's, you know, what you might say is typical teenager, but it is interesting to see because she is Billie Eilish.
R. J. Cutler 28:54
Funny. I thought you were gonna say what you might see as a typical artist, but it's both, of course. It's both. Yeah. I mean, she's demanding. She's exacting. She displeases herself. Right? Did we just described the teenager or the artist? She's a perfectionist. And what we learn is that it has to be meaningful to her. It has to be meaningful to her. Well, that's a very, that's rigor. That's artistic rigor from a 16 year old. There's a scene in the movie were, as you know, where Billie is 16 years old, and the question arises about making a hit song that's accessible to everybody. And Billie's like what did those words mean? I do not understand what those words mean. She knows what the hit song is. But they're talking about the word accessible. It's like what? Like, why would I write a song that's accessible to everyone. I have to write a song that's meaningful to me. And then and she's honest about not loving it, you know? Because it's hard. You know, you can tell, we're talking, this is our second conversation. I love making documentary films. I love it. But I can't tell you the number of times during the making of a documentary film that I can't stand its guts. I hate it. And I never want to do it again. That's what this is. That's what this is, you know what I mean? That's how you get to the point where you love it, is by suffering through the point where you hate it. And that's, you know, and you get to see that with Billie. It's, you know, you say we capture it, it's there. It's, you know, it's what happens.
Matthew? Her mother even says, well, your next album, you're not gonna write any of the songs. She's like, I'm not, there's not going to be another album. You know.
R J Cutler? I think that's a very, I mean, we end the scene on that, because it's such a kind of resonant, anybody who's ever created knows what that feels like. You know, it's like, no mas, no mas.
Matthew 31:20
And all these pressures on the shoulders of a teenage girl
R. J. Cutler 31:24
Child.
Matthew 31:25
Of a child, yes. Yes, I completely agree
R. J. Cutler 31:26
All these pressures on her shoulders, all these careers, all these lives, all these livelihoods, all their families, all these fans who depend on her, all these people present on her social media feed. She wakes up every morning and 70 million people are on her phone. 70 million people are on her phone wanting to know what she has to say, talking about her, thinking about her, judging her, criticizing her a lot. Her work, her art, creating art in the midst of that feeling fully, and communicating that performing, dealing with a body that, you know, isn't made to perform at that level without the highest possible training, going through the emotions of being a teenager, hormonal changes, love, heartbreak, being a family member, learning to be out on your own, figuring out how to make breakfast. Jesus, that's a lot. That's a lot. And you see her, you see her do it.
Matthew 32:37
Exactly. And I think, so you know, this thing. We had a, there's a documentary on Robin Williams called Robin's Wish, we had the director on a while back and he said the thing you have to remember with someone like Robin is people like that, they have a whole industry around them, there are like 50 to 100 people that just make their livings off of them. And you know, that was a lot of pressure on him who was in his, already in his 60s. I mean, here you see a 16-17 year old child. You document it well. there's this like a photo op scene in New York and she's frustrated and it's like everyone wants a piece of her in terms of photos and just to be able to say they've stood next to her. And it's this kind of, you know, another scene you document, was there in her brother's bedroom and you've got all these sort of, sorry to keep using the term middle age, I'm obviously going through a crisis, but I think, these middle aged record executives standing in the brother's bedroom, talking about the album and how it's gonna come out.
R. J. Cutler 33:41
Yeah, that's a great scene, but that's her team. Well it is, it's her team from the label and it's her managers and there are a few record executives in there. And there's, and her label is part of Interscope, but there's the head of her label, Darkroom, Justin Lubliner. And I want to say officially and on the record for all the world to see that I did not describe them as middle aged. I don't believe they're middle aged, I believe they are eternally youthful and I believe that Justin is barely out of his 20s. So I want to make that very, very clear. But yeah, it's you know, the thing about her team, and this is... I'll tell you a story. First night we were filming, very first night we were filming. We wrapped and the crew and I were having a beer in the bar at the hotel. And in came a guy who we recognized from the shoot, it was a Billie's guitar tech, whose name is Trevor. And we've Trevor, it's good to see you, come in, have a beer with us and he sat with us. And as the conversation developed, I said to him, what is the secret here, like what's going on? What is the key? And he said, I think the key is two things. One is, you'll believe me if I can't say this, but I'm gonna quote him. One is, they don't give a fuck. Speaking of Billie and Finneas, one is they don't give a fuck. And the other is they're always right. And they have surrounded themselves with adults who recognize those two things. So they listen to them, and they support them. And they make their decisions, particularly Billie's decisions come to pass. And that's what she has surrounded herself with grownups, adults who recognize that, but also adults who are comfortable being in a position where they support Billie's vision. Every one of them will tell you this, Billie is the boss. It's not a question. And it's not a conflict. And it's that, you know, no one knows her audience better than she does. No one knows her work better than she does. Nobody knows how to present her better than she does. Nobody knows her image. Nobody knows social media better than she does. So these guys, men and women really support her vision and her vision of how to execute her vision. And that's a big part of the puzzle of who is Billy Eilish?
Matthew 36:25
Well, I think that's a very important point. And it's actually one that, you know, I think even her mother kind of alludes to, talks about this as well. But, I mean, what struck me is this, there's this fine line, especially when you're dealing with a child between encouraging and almost abusing, isn't there? I mean, she's, but she puts all this pressure on herself as well. So what do you do, I mean, there's a scene where she severely twists an ankle, but the show must go on, you know. And at the same time, kind of, there's this, those around her, you know, encouraging her and helping her achieve her ultimate, her best, which is important to have in life, to have our mentors and whatever. And then at the same time, you know, this pressure, we've already talked, you mentioned that, that she must put on herself, knowing that all these people are working with her and she's got and her fan base and her desire to please them.
R. J. Cutler 37:31
Yeah, well, I'm gonna respectfully disagree just with the use of some of that terminology. She's aiming to achieve greatness. I mean, she's like an Olympic athlete. I don't think we would question the burden on the Olympic athlete or the collegiate athlete, or anybody who is aiming to achieve greatness at an early age. She's not seven. And she's incredibly well supported, I think. Again, in my experience, I don't want to, you know, but, again, the fact that you and I disagree, what you see in the film, the thin line you describe, I bet it's there, because you're describing seeing it in the film. It's just not my, necessarily mine.
Matthew 38:25
And I was probably being a little bit ineloquent as I want to do. Because I think, the thought that actually came to me, I thought when I was having some of these, is an Olympic gymnast. I mean, she is, you know, who are actually usually a lot younger.
R. J. Cutler 38:41
Well, they're not only a lot younger, but they're also, she's the coach. You know, which is what you see in the film, and it's the point I'm making in this conversation is that she's leading this charge. If she, you know, Maggie has said to me a number of times, and Patrick's alluded to this, they kind of have designed their parenting of Billie's success around the idea that if she will ever want to stop, their response would be, let's stop. And that she does, you know, they're careful, they're thoughtful, they're frugal, you know. And they want to impart that perspective on her. Of course, they recognize she'll make her own decisions in life. And they are, as you see, very supportive of that. But you know, that's their thought, that if she wants to stop, if it ever stops being satisfying, gratifying, something she wants to do, if she wants to take a year off, and that year becomes two or three. So be it. That's up to her.
Matthew 39:55
And I think what's also, this film's timely for, only in particular, it's by, I think, pure coincidence, we've obviously had the media storm that is framing Britney Spears for the last week or two. And I think this is quite a, I haven't seen the film, but I mean, you know, it's quite a contrast, in terms of what I understand of that situation. And what we see with Billie's parents, isn't it?
R. J. Cutler 40:24
I mean, you know, you'll forgive me, I've seen portions of that film. I'm very empathetic to what I understand it reveals about how poorly treated Britney was, and has been, but I don't have any expertise either, even on the contents of that film. So, though, I've seen moments and I feel for her, and I'm a fan.
Matthew 40:58
But I don't want to go before we actually talk about another element of this, which is, I think, how she speaks to her generation. I mean, technically, I'm an old Gen X-er, but the world doesn't seem, it's not very easy for Gen Z, as you mention in the film, and yet, there's all these pressures. I think they are going to have to save the world, probably. Yet a film that I think, this is a film that I wouldn't be surprised if Gen Z is going to watch this film for many years, and go back to it over, you know, as they mature, and do hopefully save the world. But, you know, there's teenage angst. But there's something more here, isn't there? I mean, I would hate to go through my teenage years again, and I don't think anyone else would either, except you're the teenage girl, I forgot. I forgot you were saying. But you know, what is, what do you think, you think you've captured that with Gen Z? I mean, those scenes from the crowds are just incredible.
R. J. Cutler 42:06
Here's what I want to say. I think there's so much about Billie and her story that is both specific to her moment and to who she is, and who her fans are, and what her work is, and universal. There's so much of what she's going through as a teenager that I recognize as a teenager, I think you recognize, I think future generations will and past generations will. There's so much to her art that transcends the specificity of the art in the moment and becomes universal. And I think that's why we're seeing such a broad appeal. And I think yes, her generation is burdened, and will be called, is being called on to save the world. But there are a lot of generations have been burdened and called on to save the world. And there will be, the next generation will as well. So I think there is a specific story here. There is a universal story here. And it's part of why it was so deeply gratifying to have the privilege to tell the story, because of those two things.
Matthew 43:15
Well, I completely agree. I mean, I certainly didn't want to make it sound like you need to be a Gen-Z to appreciate this film. I thoroughly enjoyed it. And to be honest, I'm going to watch it again tonight before the screener expires. And then recommend others do as well, because I think it's, it's just so well made. And I think it captures so many things and it captures a moment but yet it's got these universal themes. I think it's what I think, I hope, certainly what I love and probably you love about documentary filmmaking. I mean, what do you want viewers to take away from this film?
R. J. Cutler 43:58
Really my only ambition is to have made a, you know, an awesome film. So I hope that they experience that this film in whatever way to them is awesome. And that they, I think that my own personal experience has indeed been that different viewings are completely different experiences. And there's there is, you know, it is a full meal, this movie, it's got many, many aspects to it. So I just hope folks have a good time and have the opportunity to connect to Billie and her music and her art. I want nothing more than that.
Matthew 44:40
And enjoy some amazing music, which I was not very familiar with beforehand, but it's incredible. You've got, one thing I want to say is, one thing I love about this film is I think this is one of those where, you know, each time you watch there's so many great quotes. I started writing down and I just started losing track, but I like this one that Finneas says, kind of early on where he says, people who don't write songs are always reminded of songs from other songs. Do you think that's true about film, as well? Because I'm reminded of some other films, but you would probably say no, that's typical of someone who doesn't make films. What do you think of that?
R. J. Cutler 45:26
I think music is a funny thing. Because people turn on the radio in their car, so they think they know how to write a song, you know, we used to, I've said in the past that like, when you're getting notes, you're gonna always get notes on the music and the clothes because everybody has a radio in their car, and everybody gets dressed in the morning. I think that filmmaking may be liberated a little bit, but you know, people look, I love that people are opinionated about movies. That's my favorite thing. You know, I come from the theater and to us, you know, we long for the days when, you know, Alfred Jarry, premiered Ubu Roi and they screamed in the streets, and they shook their fists, and they stormed his apartment, and, you know, tore down the dor. Like we want art should inspire outrage and battles, and whether that artists film or songwriting or theater, you know, that's what we want. That's what we want from our culture. We want strong opinions and not opinions of what is allowed and not allowed, but of what the art is saying about the world and about the human condition. And, you know, that's, I love that stuff.
Matthew 46:57
Yeah. Well, and if you don't mind me saying, I mean, the film I kept, and the reason I was kind of alluding to myself, the film I kept thinking of was, Don't Look Back. And I know, they're very different films a lot of ways. But, you know, I think in terms of, I don't know, per se film that will stand the test of time, and, you know, it demands more, it's a meal, but it's a meal worth having more than once. You know, I would argue. So thanks again. What's next for you? I mean, you've been a busy man, you deserve a rest, but do you have anything?
R. J. Cutler 47:37
No resting. We're, life has many adventures, I have a new company called This Machine. And we have a lot of projects that are coming up. Some that we're announcing any moment. I'm hard at work on the second season of Deer, which is the series we do for Apple TV+, and we have some wonderful subjects that we're that we're focused on this year. And I have a new movie that I'm going to start directing, but we haven't yet announced, and a TV series. So there's, I'm busy, but I love it. My family is growing. We're expecting our third child in May. And I'll knock on things we're very excited about that. And our kids are excited to have a baby sister, so you know, just, we count our blessings, we count our blessings. And we hope for healing in our country, which just went through a really, really, really rough four years. And, you know, as I say we count our blessings and we cheer on democracy. So that what's happening around here these days.
Matthew 48:58
Thank you so much. We've got a wrap. Our time's up, as are your assistant is now, if she was visible would be waving her hands telling me to wrap up now. So thank you, RJ Cutler, director, producer and writer of Billie Eilish: The World's a Little Blurry, streaming exclusively on Apple TV+, from February 26.
R. J. Cutler 49:19
We'll see you for the third one next time.
Matthew 49:22
I appreciate it. Thank you so much. It's been very appreciated. Good luck with everything and thank you, Francesca. Okay, bye. Thank you. So I'd like to give a shout out to This Is Distorted studios in Leeds, England, and Freddie Bestbroad, our engineer, a shout out to our podcast manager Nevena Paunovic, who keeps bringing us great guests like RJ. And please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America. Signing off.
Factual America Outro 49:51
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