Uprooted: American History Through Jazz Dance
The history of jazz dance is the history of America.
The history of jazz and jazz dance facts are not well documented, however, especially when it comes to the leading role played by African Americans.
In Uprooted: The Journey of Jazz Dance, filmmakers Khadifa Wong and Zak Nemorin trace jazz dance back to its roots in Africa, (jazz is an African dance) and follow its evolution up to the present and modern dance.
Along the way Khadifa and Zack address difficult subjects such as appropriation, racism and sexism within this quintessential American art form, and in the process shine a light on this chapter in America's history.
But in the end, their film is a celebration of this most human of art forms, where as they say, "what all people have in common is rhythm and a basic human need to get down". "
Whether it was jazz, whether it's hip hop, there are cultures that step out of oppression, and out of wanting to speak out, and jazz dance was just an iteration of that." - Khadifa Wong
Time Stamps:
1:55 - The film we are talking about today.
3:15 - When and where the film premiered.
4:27 - How Khadifa and Zack are spending their time in London.
6:00 - What is jazz dance?
8:35 - What is social dance?
13:28 - The roots of jazz dance.
15:20 - How this art form got appropriated by Hollywood.
17:29 - The question of ownership of jazz dance and its branches.
23:08 - "Uprooted" as an artistic exploration of American history.
25:24 - How Zack got started with the idea for this project.
31:32 - Tension between schools of dance; the connection between dance and protest.
33:40 - Watching the alternative trailer for the film.
36:24 - Where the future of jazz dance is going.
39:40 - The timeliness of the film in the context of the BLM movement.
44:13 - How Khadifa and Zack got into jazz dance.
50:30 - The perspective that Zack and Khadifa gave to the film as British filmmakers.
53:00 - Famous artists that are featured in the film.
55:20 - Who the director of photography is.
58:50 - The next projects Zack and Khadifa are working on.
Resources:
Uprooted: The Journey of Jazz Dance (2020)
Follow the film on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram
I Am Not Your Negro: Racism In The US
Alamo Pictures
This Is Distorted
Connect With Khadifa Wong:
Connect with Zak Nemorin:
More From Factual America:
Uprooted: American History Through Jazz Dance
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6 Conspiracy Documentaries You Should Watch
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Best Documentaries about British History: Exploring the Past in Depth
Transcript for Factual America Episode 25 - Uprooted: American History Through Jazz Dance
0:00
Hi, my name is Khadifa Wong and I'm the director of Uprooted.
0:03
Hi, my name is Zak Nemorin and I am the original concept guy, co-creator and I did additional choreography for the film.
0:16
Jazz is in a place of flux at the moment. There's a little bit of confusion about whether or not it's necessary or whether it's relevant.
0:27
What is jazz in the 21st century? Where is it going? Is it still holding on to the values of where it came from?
0:36
The aesthetic has changed so much that we don't recognize it today.
0:41
I think it's also where's the support for the community that this art form comes from. And when people would say this dance is cool, but I don't want to mess with you as a person. There's danger in that.
0:56
You go to these studios, you go to these universities and you get one side of the picture and there's a whole other side, which I don't even know.
1:10
That is the trailer for the recently released documentary, Uprooted - the Journey of jazz dance. And this is Factual America.
1:20
Factual America is produced by Alamo pictures, a production company specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for an international audience. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood, and every week we look at America through the lens of documentary filmmaking by interviewing filmmakers and experts on the American experience. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Alamo pictures to be the first to hear about new productions, to find out where you can see our films and to connect with our team.
1:55
History of jazz dance is the history of America. That history is not well documented however, especially when it comes to the leading role played by African Americans. In Uprooted - the Journey of Jazz dance filmmakers Khadifa Wong and Zak Nemorin trace jazz dance back to its roots in Africa and follow its evolution up to the present. Along the way Khadifa and Zack address difficult subjects such as appropriation, racism and sexism within this uniquely American art form, and in the process shine a light on this chapter in America's history. But in the end, their film is a celebration of this most human of art forms, where as they say, what all people have in common is rhythm and a basic human need to get down. We join Khadifa and Zak from their homes in London, England. Khadifa Wong and Zak Nemorin, welcome to Factual America. Khadifa and Zak's film is Uprooted - the Journey of Jazz dance and first of all, what I should do is congratulate you all on the release of your film.
3:00
Thank you very much. Thank you.
3:02
It's quite an accomplishment these days. We've got a lot of people on who haven't been able to get their films released because of COVID. Was that a premier at the Dance on Camera Film Festival?
3:14
It was. Yeah, it was the first public screening and the world premiere. So we were very lucky. Covid hit just as we finished all the major components. So we were very fortunate in an unfortunate situation.
3:26
Well, you've already got reviews. I've seen in Hollywood Reporter, mentions in New York Times, so well done. Are there any other festivals that you're scheduled to be yet?
3:39
In August, we're at the Rhode Island International Film Festival. So that's going to be fun. And we're looking forward to that. Again, it's going to be virtual, but that's our second stop on the promotion tool. So that's good.
3:53
Okay. So at this stage, it's limited to festivals. It's not showing anywhere yet. But we can talk a little bit more about that later in our chat. So, well as you've just said, you've finished this just, or did most of the finishing just before COVID hit. But how have you guys been doing? Zak, you're both in London. I'm in Leeds, so, you know, in theory, we could have met up someplace, maybe.
4:20
Oh, I didn't realize that.
4:23
But how are things? How are you faring down there in London?
4:27
I think things are, things are okay. And this particular film is keeping us very busy at the moment. We're just beginning a little promotion tour for the film festival circuit and I think we're just in dialogue, continued dialogue.
4:43
I'm being interviewing from home. Strangely enough, it's been rather comforting being able to do it at home. You're a bit more flexible and you're a bit more comfortable. I think for the first time I've ever really done interviews. It's been really nice to be somewhere comfy.
4:59
Yeah, exactly not having to rush to a studio someplace or whatever.
5:06
I mean, it would be nice to be going to our premiers, like flying out to the Lincoln Center in New York and Rhode Island. It would be lovely to go and visit and kind of, you know, get the red carpet feel and experience but, you know, this is the world we live in.
5:19
Yeah, it is. And I know you already feel, you're very thankful for the fact that you've been able to get this film out, out in front of people. Thanks for mentioning Lincoln Center. I forgot to mention that. That, that's, seems like quite of, quite an accomplishment. So that's all, it's all going very well. And just to remind our listeners, we're talking about jazz dance. As I've already alluded to, before we started this recording, I was going to ask you some very basic questions, so bear with me. But what is jazz dance?
5:58
This is the question that every single person will ask and no one can really give a definitive answer. As an educator, sorry for jumping in Khadifa, but as an educator, I would always, you know, attribute jazz dance as a teacher to having rhythm, syncopation, dynamics, use of isolation. So the different parts of the body, using different parts of the body in isolation to the rest. Also have a sense of improvisation. And almost - it doesn't mean a thing if ain't got that swing, it's got to have a swing. Got to have that essence of coolness to it as well.
6:35
So it's like a lot of things. You kind of you know it when you see it. Is that kind of it?
6:41
We tried very hard to get a definition in the film. We asked a lot of people that we interviewed. The first question that we asked was what is jazz dance. And that never sort of set the interviews off right because people will go - Ah, um... We got rid of that question after about six interviews and we're like, this is probably harder to answer then we thought. And that's part of what the film is about, trying to answer that question. Because there's very set sections of dancers and practitioners that have varying ideas, for various reasons, what jazz dance is. And we decided that we weren't going to be able to answer that question definitively. We had to get a lot of people to answer that question for us.
7:20
You know, what I was gonna say, as someone who, I mean, my formative years were 70s-80s in the United States. I mean, I had my own, you know, you say jazz dance. I had my own idea what that meant. And I mean, what struck me watching the film, is that the definition has changed each decade, hasn't it? It's evolving form.
7:42
Yeah, absolutely. It's more of a popular dance form that was happening at the time and the music was happening at the time, but it started in the Jazz Age and in the Jazz era. And hence that name, Jazz dance, I think is just stuck. But depending on who you speak to, it will be a very different definition.
8:01
As we kind of explore this a little further, maybe this, I think this one is still for Zak. I mean, let's do a little, Zak, let's do a little dance glossary here. Because it comes up. I was watching this and so, first of all, for the rest of the show if you just say Jazz we know you're talking about jazz dance. Because I had to think, keep thinking, cuz I'm a big jazz music fan. And I kept thinking, wait a minute, oh, I see, you know, kind of thing. Social dance. So social dance, what's social dance?
8:34
Okay, so. I'm gonna take it, I'm going to deviate ever so slightly. There's a wonderful image that Kimberly Testa drew of a tree. And this is the easiest way to kind of explain the different stages and different eras of Jazz dance. So if you think about the roots of jazz dance, the roots of the tree being in African social dance. And then by way of the transatlantic slave trade, those various peoples were taken past the Middle Passage into the Americas. And we think of all of those kind of combinations of different religious dances, social dances coming together in the Americas. And then we begin to call that vernacular, the vernacular jazz.
9:19
That was my next question. Yeah. Okay.
9:21
So social dance really is authentic jazz, vernacular jazz, the roots of American, the American version of the African diaspora.
9:32
Right. Okay. And then, that takes us, and we will, I think we will explore a little bit more about the roots of that tree. But other terms that get thrown about in the film you talk jazz versus modern versus contemporary. So you're the teacher, I can tell. So, we are your students. Tell us what, what is the difference between those?
10:03
If I just continue with the tree a little bit, it makes it so much easier to explain. So there was a definite European influence to that vernacular form. And in essence, that's the ballet influence. So, the offshoot from that vernacular trunk of the tree would become theatrical jazz, which is what many people or most people consider to be jazz dance. And the founding father of that type, or who people attribute as the founding father is Jack Cole. Many different people have different observations and different thoughts upon that. But there's also tap that's there as well. So, at that same kind of era, we have the tap starting from his Africanist roots and we also have theatrical jazz, which is the Europeanist influenced tree trunk, offshoots from vernacular, which then splits off even further into the modern into all of the things that you mentioned. Which are just influenced by, many of them are influenced by cultural circumstance and different cultural identities and different cultural movements that come from various different, you know, parts of the country, various different parts of the world. And I think that's the beauty of jazz dance, because it is a cultural thing. It comes from so many different parts of the world. Not always by means of good will.
11:48
I mean, again, this gets to this one quote, you have - jazz dance history is the history of America. I mean, and I think the film does an amazing job of documenting that. I think it's, what was it Hollywood Reporter said, it was extremely illuminating, this film. And I have to agree. I didn't just watch it twice because I had all this extra time on my hands. I found it very, I don't remember, I'll be very honest with you. In this particular case, in your film, I don't remember... Learning so much is gonna make it sound boring and like really old school documentary stuff from like the 40s or 50s or from our school age, but it is, I think, something we'll get to more in terms of the timeliness, I think it was very illuminating. Things that I wasn't aware of, like, where even the term cakewalk comes from. You know, these kind of things. Not that that's why you would watch this film. We can give that away. There's no spoiler alerts here. Cakewalk is one of the early forms that African American slaves, a form of dance that they engaged in, which actually was them, without the slave owners realizing it, mocking the slave owners. It was their one outlet.
13:10
Yeah. the act of rebellion, but artistically.
13:14
Yeah. So as we're talking about this, these roots of jazz dance, they're in Africa, aren't they? And that's where you, you take us back there, don't you?
13:25
Yeah, we wanted to, because not a lot of people recognize that as being the roots of jazz dance. And that's, it's slightly been, it's always been sort of there, but they've never really acknowledged it properly. And so we thought that's the best place to start the film. And that gives us that kind of linear path to follow. And so that was a really good place for us to start that film. We thought start it with the roots and move upwards. So yeah, we definitely started there, but we wanted to start it before slavery. Because you know, things were happening in Africa and on the African continent, way before slavery happened. And all of those, all of that rich history informed it, because the people were taken. So we felt that was an important place to start with just before slavery and what was happening just before that happened.
14:12
And what, again, what I didn't realize is, I was aware of the Lindy Hop. I didn't realize, I didn't even realize it had roots in certainly the Harlem Renaissance and black history. Is it a very simplistic thing to say that sort of Juba, which was this form of early dance in the African American slave culture, sort of led to Lindy Hop and the Cakewalk, kind of, I think one of your, I think it's the guy at Duke, talks of Cakewalk became the roots of Broadway and musicals and these sort of things. So again, it's this very, I mean, it just shines a light not only on jazz dance, but on a particular, even epic, it's several centuries of American history that's reflected in this. And so we get to sort of, you know, past Ragtime into Lindy Hops and the sort of Broadway. How does it progress from there? Is it fair enough to say it's sort of appropriated by Hollywood?
15:25
Yeah, I think one of the things that happened, because we had a contributor called Karen Hubbard, who said, basically, there's a point where it splits. And so the ballet dancers, the modern dancers, the people that were influenced by the ballet of Martha Graham and Ruth St. Denis and all of those people, they started to take jazz dance, and so they took it on one path. And that takes us to the Hollywood musical that takes us to the Broadway. Even though there was the presence of people like Shuffle Along, the Blake musical that were on Broadway, the kind of real golden era, as it's defined, gets taken and is separated. But then social dance, Lindy Hop falls along another path, leading us down a path towards hip hop dancing and all of the dances you see in pubs. And so there's two very separate distinct worlds that at various points intersect. But throughout history, we only tend to remember the white sort of people that orchestrated that because they had the access and the ability to, kind of what's the word I'm looking, codify them, because they had the legal means to do that. And so that's where, you know, the politics interplays with the arts. Because there were black people codifying, there were black people doing a lot of those things, but they just didn't have the legal means to put that out into the world.
16:45
And it was even, what's his name, is Thomas, is it LaFrance, yeah at Duke. For clarity sake, I went to Duke so that's why... But he seems to, it's also a cultural thing, isn't it? I mean, yes it is an opportunity and not having access to, put it the courts. But I understand where he's going from, you know, this ability of being part of, you're not part of the establishment. So you're not in a position to codify. But there's not even it's not really even part of African American culture to want to do something like that, is it? I mean, it tended not to be, to claim ownership.
17:27
I mean, that's a strange one. And that's, that was a quote we kind of struggled with, because not everyone felt that way about that, which was interesting. But we put it in there as a kind of direct comparison to show - Well, there are some sections of African American society that wouldn't have done that. And it was just about, here's my dance, let's share it and everyone puts it into the pot as it were the same with cooking and the same with cuisine that, you know, these recipes were just passed down from generation to generation. So these dances were passed down from generation to generation. You would see your parents and your grandparents do it. And you would learn it and you would adapt it. But sometimes people named their moves. So we have to be clear. There were some tap dances that had steps and had capilary part of the overall cultural thing. Yeah, it wasn't about individual ownership. It was about, well, I'm just putting this out there to my community, and everyone can do what they want with it. And we see it now with music and sampling and things like that.
18:25
Right, right. But what I find interesting, too, is I mean, I guess it kind of makes sense. But a lot of the people you talk to, you have a lot of, you have an amazing cast of people that you've got access to. It's not just academics, although there's a sizable number of those. You've got all these choreographers, famous dancers that even like even the sort of black, African American hip hop dancers say they're influenced by seeing things like West Side Story or, you know, Singing in the Rain or these sort of things. So it's this kind of, it's a very difficult, nuanced subject to put into an hour and 30 minutes, I think.
19:18
Yeah, it was hard.
19:22
Which is history of America.
19:24
Yeah. Well, that's what kept coming back to me. I mean, I've actually gone in the, we'll probably put some things in the show notes. Who's the fellow at USC who's the hip hop artist? I mean, the expert.
19:37
Moncell Durden.
19:41
Yes. So I mean, I found YouTube clips with him and he goes into more detail. It's very interesting. You know, people ask questions and he's like, no, no, no, there is an Irish influence on tap. And, yeah, it's not just the Irish, actually, there was English clog dancing and there was Scottish highlander moves that were incorporated. And then and then even, you know, again, we don't want to give away too much of the film. But you even had some of these people who started codifying, they themselves were influenced by Eastern?
20:19
Hugely. When you consider Jack Cole, who many consider as the founding father of the actual cool jazz, not jazz dance but theatrical jazz. You know, he studied Eastern Indian Bharatnatyam, classical Indian dance, temple dance, if you will. And that is very, very much part of his technique, which was passed down to the likes of Matt Mattox, and then that gets passed down to the next. So yeah, it's really worldwide.
20:49
And I think in fairness, and I think it comes out in this film that people like, certainly Maddox and others, I don't think they called, they didn't even call it jazz dance themselves, did they? I mean, that's just when it got termed. But they weren't trying to claim that it was, you know, jazz dance necessarily.
21:10
This is where you get on that slippery slope of, of not being, you know, a lot of the people aren't there to speak up for themselves. So we had to be very careful, we wanted to be very respectful of what they actually did do. Because they did a lot of good. And they were influenced. And you have to work out that not all influence is appropriation, not all taking other people's work is appropriation, sometimes it's admiration. So there's a very kind of slippery kind of definition. And so there are clear kind of moments of appropriation throughout history. And it is clear in jazz, but there are also a lot of moments of people loving something and bringing it into their work. And for us, it was really hard to work out how to identify, when to identify what was appropriation and what was something else, called transmission. Where people just kind of exchanged ideas and exchange dances.
22:05
And you're right, there's, I can, we won't go down the list, but there's other American art forms I can think of. There is this man from Texas originally, there's a music there, that's all influenced by German and polkas, and Spanish and some African American and all gets mashed up and turns into this, I think, this was the one quote - American culture just steals all these things from these different cultures and then mashes them up. And that's what you get, you know.
22:37
Make something new, yeah, absolutely.
22:40
So I feel like, well, we've obviously moved from a bit of a background on jazz dance and sort of the heart of what the film is about. I mean, Khadifa, I usually ask our guests, certainly the directors, and I think we've kind of already getting to it. You know, we're talking about the history of jazz dance, maybe you can give us a little synopsis of what the film is and what it's about.
23:11
Sure, it's, yes, it's the story of jazz dance. And that is the driving force. But it's also a kind of artistic exploration of American history, because the two are intertwined. And I find that you need to understand the social and political context of art to understand why it was created, and why it is the way it is and why it's been disrespected. And you can only do that by acknowledging the kind of systemic racism and the way America was founded on genocide and slavery. You can't, unless you acknowledge that, you can't sort of understand jazz dance. And you can't understand why it is such a disparate art form that is up for so much debate. So that was why we kind of had those social and political elements in there too.
23:58
And in your, I mean, going through this, is it more than just a few people saying this? You know, is there evidence, a lot of people really don't know where jazz dance emanates from, is that true?
24:15
It's just not taught. And if it is taught, it's taught very broadly. So they'll just say it originated in America in x time period, without going into the detail of what happened in slavery, the horrors of slavery and how that led to it because there is direct correlation. So if you think about the slave back to 1739, when they had a rebellion organized by drums and said, well, any African who played drums, your hands will get chopped off. So they moved the rhythm inwards. That's a direct result of a political act that created an artistic form and started that journey. So if they just say broadly, oh, it came from America in the 1600s 1700s, 1800s, whenever they want to date it from, or the 1920s, which a lot of the time they do call the jazz era. You don't get an understanding of what it really is. You just think it's a dance in the nightclub. Fun, but it was about so much more. And so yeah, that's why we kind of had to tie those things and why they're intrinsically linked.
25:14
So Zak, you're the concept guy. What did you start off? Well, you had the concept. So what did you start off wanting to document? Or how did this, you know, how did this project kick off?
25:27
I'll try and be brief with this. So around five years ago, I'm 38 now, around five years ago, I decided to do a degree. I didn't have, had never done a degree because I didn't want to do one when I was 18 years old. So I decided to do a degree in my mid 30s. That was about five years ago. And I was in a, I've been a West End performer in West End shows for nearly 20 years now. And I was having debates with people just going - What do you know about this? What do you know about this? And it just so happened that I've known Khadifa for a good old 10-12-15 years or however long it is, as well. It just so happened that Khadifa started working in the same building as me at the Savoy Theatre in London. And I was like, no way. So we were having a debate in the Quick Change area. And I was I really want to do a film about jazz dance because I'm Head of jazz dance at Millennium Performing Arts in London. And I really want to do a film. Because there's a lack of, there's a lack of resource for students out there. There's also a lack of resource for professionals. Obviously, I was having conversations with someone who knew nothing about it. So that's kind of the original, kind of like spark. And then, and then Khadifa and I would just be in conversation for a good, I'd say, what, two years before production. Like doing research, going to places, visiting different countries. Kind of like just trying to find, you know, the Genesis point, the starting point. So it really wasn't about my original concept It was about Khadifa and I co creating from an original kind of like spark of an idea, if that makes any sense.
27:16
But it was, he hadn't said I want to do a film about jazz dance, it was like, I was not looking to do a dance film. I was, you know, had my sights set somewhere completely different. And then you just do you wanna do this. And I go, well, actually, it would be nice to mix the love of dance and film because I hadn't done that yet. And so I wouldn't have ever thought that there was anything even possible, had you not ask me that one question on that one day. This is incredible when you think about it.
27:43
And did you set out to make the definitive history of jazz dance? Was that or what were you originally thinking you started?
27:51
Well, not really, cause we start, we did a little trial on Zak's thesis for his degree. And he was defining himself as artist, so we were more interested in lineage, weren't we Zak? Say we both realized, actually, we could trace our path as dancers and artists from these really big names, you know, six degrees of separation from Jack Cole, we realized we weren't that far away from him. And then we met Lisa Donmall-Reeve, who's the film's producer, we said, look, we want to, you know, we sort of came to her with our sort of few ideas. And she said, it's good, but it's not big enough. I don't know the history of jazz dance. And I think that's more interesting than just keeping it small about your lineage and things like that. Jazz dance, she just said that, she gave us that focus to kind of go, okay, the history of jazz dance. What does that mean? And it was bigger than ourselves, obviously. And that I think, was the second moment of Genesis when we met with Lisa and we're like, Okay, this lady's given us a challenge. And now this is a very clear direction in which to follow. And that's when you know, the reading and we suddenly became alert to conversations that were happpening in the American jazz dance world, but we weren't having in the British dance world. And we probably wouldn't have found out about that had we not, sort of researched, gone down that path.
29:08
And what were those differences in conversations?
29:12
There was a book that was being published around about the same time Zak and I were first having our conversations, by Lindsay Greener and Wendy Oliver. And they were two university professors that wanted to find more research for their jazz dance students, and were just sick of photocopying articles for every class. So they were like, we need to do a book. So they started getting together various jazz practitioners, a lot of whom are in this film, because we sort of just ripped those great voices. And they sort of came back to them said, well, that's great if you want to do a book about jazz dance, but do know that there's a lot of black artists that are feeling ignored, that the roots aren't properly acknowledged. And so they did that work before us in sort of actually putting down the roots. And that's where the tree came from. They got the tree that Zak beautifully used. That's where that image came from. And that's what forms the basis for our film, was the sort of tree growing and evolving. So they were the catalyst of that within the jazz dance community. And we were able to read this book and use it as our starting point. It was the best jumping off point that we could have had as filmmakers.
30:18
And there's nothing had actually been made visually, I guess, that we could show to people, or I had really seen. There are documentaries, and there are things that you can research and look up about different sections and different parts of the jazz dance world. But nothing that kind of encapsulated, all encapsulating all turned it out, turned out to be quite it's quite a feat.
30:47
I don't think we got it all. I think we got a lot but I wouldn't say that we got it like 100% of it all.
30:55
I think you've got the visual equivalent of that book, basically. It's a, you know, any good, you're never going to capture it all. So you've got a good jumping off, certainly an excellent jumping off point. I mean, one thing I picked up on, maybe it's wrong, but maybe kind of goes back to some of these definitional issues. But I think you've kind of alluded to this point you made about a lot of the black people in the field of feeling a bit aggrieved, or maybe I'm trying to find the right words for it. But is there is there this conflict basically between the sort of codified and communal performance versus vernacular, establishment elite versus protest? And is this kind of way back when now is that where hip hop is born?
31:49
Yeah, it all comes out of protest and comes out of the need to have your say and have your voice. However that happened, whether it was jazz, whether it's hip hop. They are all cultures that step out of oppression and out of wanting to speak out. And jazz was just an iteration of that. And you see it happen over time, various music and art forms over time. So yeah, it absolutely is born out of that.
32:17
And I think this is, we've been going for I think about a half an hour now, I think this may be a good time to give our listeners a bit of a break. And besides giving them a break and a chance to hear about our sponsor, will also give them a chance to listen and /or watch if they're on YouTube, an alternative trailer. They've already seen or heard the first trailer, but this kind of gets back to this conflict, this tension that you've alluded to, and it's also kind of, sets us up for when we come back which is sort of looking forward into the future of jazz dance. So, listeners you can have a break and do stick around though and listen to that trailer.
33:12
You're listening to Factual America, subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter at Alamo pictures to keep up to date with new releases for upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
33:30
A great jazz dancer has a strong sense of self. A great jazz dancer isn't afraid to get dirty.
33:50
Jazz is an opportunity for everyone to bring their own culture, their own style, and it's really what they feel in their heart, in their soul.
34:02
Great jazz dancer knows how to focus, how to get the audience to look at them and say this is what I want you to look at.
34:11
It's like the great jazz musicians. There are a lot of people that can hit the notes but can they put it together? Can they make gumbo with a candy shoes, you know, that's jazz dancing.
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Khadifa Wong, director of Uprooted - the Journey of Jazz dance, based on the original concept and idea of Zak Nemorin, who's also provided many other aspects to the film including some choreography. I want to read a quote from The Hollywood Reporter actually, I think it's an excellent one. "Uprooted couldn't be more timely. A thoughtful and impassioned look at the often ignored roots of a quintessential American art form. One that can be traced back to people enslaved by the nascent nation, her documentary offers", because they referred to you in a previous sentence, "her documentary offers an enriching corrective to the official story of jazz dance taking it beyond its already fascinating and complex showbiz luster to profoundly political terrain." So that's the film Uprooted - the Journey of Jazz dance. Oh, by the way, Zak, did I recognize a cameo by you in the film?
35:32
Yes, absolutely. I took part in a couple of classes that, where was it, Steps on Broadway. So I took that class and Blackstone's class. Just as a dancer myself just because I wanted to kind of immerse myself in the experience.
35:49
Yeah, I think it was great. I didn't notice it until the second time around. I just kind of happened to look up. I was like, wait a minute. I think I'm gonna be talking to that guy later today. What's, so what's the future of jazz dance? I mean, I don't want to go into all, your film, I hope, you know, we'll talk about how people are going to be able to see this eventually. And I don't want to give anything away, but I don't think we are. But if you don't mind, where do you see the future of jazz dance going? Or what's the next hip hop, basically?
36:24
Gosh, that's very difficult question. I don't think hip hop, much the same as vernacular jazz, will ever die. Because it's a cultural thing. So Moncell says it very well in all of his, you know, all of his seminars that he gives and everything and he says, it's in our film - hip hop is culture. Debbie Allen said that. It's culture and you know, it will never die. It will just morph and transition into something else.
36:55
And is jazz dance, this has just come to me. I mean, is jazz dance sort of like jazz music? Because jazz music, I mean, I'm a big fan, I was actually setting in way to hear that it was the death knell of, but I'm a big fan of Bebop, right. So, you know, I love Miles Davis and all these people and then I find out that it was the death knell for this relationship between jazz music and jazz dance. But it goes through these waves. And there's all these people - no, it needs to be 1920s, 40s period or, oh, no, it's bebop. But bebop is now over 60, almost 70 years old almost, coming on. And, you know, there's this risk that things become, art forms become sort of, to use the British expression, you know, sort of coated an aspic, and just kind of preserved instead of evolving, you know. And is it possible, maybe that's kind of, that's essentially, it's sort of something similar with something like jazz music.
37:55
Yeah, it's funny because they did leave each other but they did also come back. Because I remember doing a lot of my dance training in the jazz dance classes to acid jazz. And grooves like New Jersey Kings, and Grover Washington Jr. and in a quartet. So we did it in both my jazz dance classes and my contemporary dance classes. So I think you find that they just kind of move into whatever is the music of the day, but you can, as artists change, and some of those modern jazz artists started looking back for inspiration. So did the dance, the choreographers and the dance teachers would look back for inspiration at the music and the jazz music. So it just never, there's always been a kind of exchange and a kind of a relationship where I guess they just break up and get back together again, and enable you to do that depending on what the musicians are doing.
38:45
And I guess, you guys can tell me better than I can say. I guess, like any art form. It's just, you can't really manage these things, can you? They're just kind of, they're products of their milieu and things change, more and more things change, more than remain the same, unfortunately, in some cases. But, I mean, maybe that brings us back to a question I was gonna have in terms of the current context, because I don't think we can talk about this in July of 2020, and I think this will air at the end of the month or early August, we're only a year or two removed from #me too. And now we've got Black Lives Matter and Khadifa is a woman and a woman of color. I mean, you know, it's, as I said, The Hollywood Reporter referred to this as "it couldn't be more timely". And I agree. How do you, I mean, maybe your own personal views of how things are going and how you see your project, your film fitting into this discussion?
39:50
Yeah,I think that quote in itself was, that quote in itself was a very strange one. Because we finished the film, like the edit, pretty much it was finished last year in August. So the long way before the events of this year happened, and for me, have sort of, a lot of the subjects in that and a lot of the issues that we tackled with my way of having a voice. Because when Trump was elected in 2016, we had Brexit as well, I could feel the shift of racism, xenophobia, nationalism, already. And I remember being silenced by so many people telling me Trump was harmless. But even from the sort of birther, when he started spouting the birther conspiracy about Obama, it's like, that's an overt act of racism. And everyone is okay with this, like he's getting airtime. And those were the signals and the warning signs then, for me. So it feels like it's a little bit too late because we had the warning signs, and this film was my way of issuing a warning sign and showing - look what's happened in the past. Look at what we're trying to say. These black lives do matter because look at the art forms that they have created. So it was a very interesting quote to say that it's timely when we're like, oh, you know, we were thinking these things before, it became, I don't know, what do you want to call it, mainstream or the news started to change the way they describe things. Because before that no one would describe Donald Trump or Boris Johnson as a racist when they are. And that it's not just the words, the actions actually state that and prove that beyond any reasonable doubt. So it's a very strange thing for me. But it was a very interesting one. That from all of these things happened as the film came out. Because it's like, well wonder how this has changed people's perception and whether they would have been so willing to accept what we were stating was the history of jazz dance and the roots because we know that there's been huge debates. And even just some of the dance conferences I attended, hearing people resist this message that a lot of the dancers and practitioners were trying to say and talk about the roots of jazz dance. They weren't willing to listen, but I think they're willing to listen now. So I think maybe we debut this film with some kinder ears, which I think was a good thing for the film because it meant our message was heard with a bit more of a favorable kind of understanding and a willingness. People were willing to hear what we had to say.
42:13
I mean, you have a great, there's a great quote from the film that you pointed us towards, and I think happy to share, it's - "In America, we don't teach aspects of history, particularly the areas in which African Americans have had a vital participatory role". That was Professor Robin Gee. I think she's at UNCG, I believe. But you spent a lot of time in North Carolina, I think. I noticed that a lot of the professors are in different places around there. But I mean, I think that's, we've had other, we've discussed other documentaries on the podcast, we've looked at the James Baldwin documentary that came out a few years ago and some other discussions. I mean, I think it's true they raised points. They're very illuminating. And I think it just, for whatever reason fall on, certainly in the US, they fall on deaf ears many times, and maybe it just, unfortunately, is society. Sometimes we need a kick in the rear end sometimes to take to rear up and take notice of things. But I thought, but all that said, I mean, you know, here I don't usually just read quotes. But I mean, you discuss yours as being an honest conversation about jazz dance. We've already talked about that. It's not about, it's not all about its appropriation. It's all about understanding where, I think is this very subtle, very nuanced argument. And I think you do it extremely well in terms of what was admiration and what people were doing, adding to the sort of creativity of the art form. But, if I may, to both of you, you know, cause we're, actually it's hard to believe this has been going very quickly. And I've really enjoyed this. We're starting to get towards the end of our time together. But how did you two get into jazz dance? Were you, Khadifa, were you into jazz dance as well? Or is it or just Zak?
44:22
Yes, me also. Well, we both, Zak and I both trained under the same lady, the late great Jackie Mitchell. She was a descendant of Matt Mattox's teaching and she brought his isolation technique to London, correct me if I'm wrong Zak. So that was where I first started doing jazz dance. Because I was a contemporary dancer all of my life, ballet and contemporary. And then I came into jazz when I started my professional dance training. But I didn't feel like that was where I was welcome to the most, ironically. And we went, because we went towards about the history and the roots and how it related to me as a black woman. I didn't really, wasn't really interested in it. Because it was just a lot of hair flipping and this very, very, um, what's the word... when it's just about the face? Superficial. Was very superficial. So I moved into contemporary dance because, you know, we were getting more of an internal journey and what we were being taught. And I was interacting more with choreographers of color from the contemporary world. So it was more important for me that way. But I always loved jazz dance, and I always wanted to do it and I was kind of raised on those dance films of Staying alive, Flashdance, Chorus Line, all these. That was what I wanted to do, but I was just never able to do it, because there just wasn't the opportunity in the UK to do those kind of dances. There was no jazz dance companies, or there was very few. And so it was really hard to do that. So I had to go into contemporary, but that's how my journey went. And then meeting Zak and seeing him renewed, you know, he renewed my love for Matt Mattox technique and my love for jazz dance. And that was because Zak was teaching it and I would do his class and that's that.
46:14
Interestingly enough, I had a very similar journey. Again taught by the late great Jackie Mitchell. But my journey was very different as a mixed race guy. You know, I just took to it, like a duck to water and, you know, subsequently had almost 20, well still have, but kind of almost 20 year performing career in musical theater. So which is jazz dance incarnate, really. And I was lucky enough to work with so many, a very different group of choreographers and directors, not just kind of like a select few. That I kind of sponge every bit of information from so many different people that I worked with. So I just feel lucky and grateful to have worked with so many people, which has informed me as a more of an emerging choreographer in life to create informed jazz dance, rather than just the flicky of the hair, jazz dance as Khadifa was talking about earlier on.
47:23
Yeah, there you go. I mean, I think, actually, this brings me, something comes up in the film, to this idea of where, I mean, we talked about what's the future. I wasn't aware that there is this whole situation where, now that I know what jazz dance is, there's this whole situation where there's so few companies now. And one of the, I think one of your guests talks about, what did she call it? There's the get a job, kind of, you know, you do. And then people were talking about it, it's all about, it's becoming tricksy, it's all about how many flips you can do and things like that. And yet, everyone you've got on there, even the ones that are choreographers, they all sound like, professors in the best sense of the word. You know, they're very studious and very intellectual and have really thought through this. It's very, it's a very interesting dynamic, I think you've caught there.
48:27
That's the reason why they're successful, because they are informed or more informed.
48:36
I don't wanna make, you know, doing that kind of entertainment dance is a skill set in itself. And creating classes that the crowds like is a skill set in itself and there is a gift in it. You know, people are seeing jazz dance, maybe they're not seeing the type of jazz dance you want them to see, but they are looking at it. With starting point as tricksy and as flippy as it is. But there's still some merit in that kind of dancing I think.
49:04
I think one of the, one of those talking heads does mention - Yes, there's that element. But the flip side is more people again are getting interested into dance, which is interesting. We've had quite a few very different subjects, nothing related to dance, but we've had a lot of, you know. It's funny or it's interesting how much the 80s, the 90s keep coming up. And I know we're in a period where the 90s are very hot right now and things like that. But this was, you know, like you were saying, dance was everywhere in the 80s and 90s. And I mean, you touch on that too, what's happened there as well. But it is interesting to have gone through this sort of period and, you know, maybe there's a there will be this time of renewal and rebirth. Now, so Khadifa, you've made the switch to filmmaking. This is your feature debut. Right? Yeah. And documentary filmmaking, add that. I mean, both of you, what do you think you've seen that maybe an American filmmaker might have missed? Because we, the producers of this podcast is Alamo pictures and the remit is documentary films from a European or international perspective. So do you think there's an outsiders, what was your unique viewpoint or insights that you were able to provide being, at least British origin filmmaker.
50:38
Yeah, I think it was that we could step back and look at it as a whole. And we weren't tied to any bias or any allegiance to anything American. Because I know in England, when we interview people in Britain, I had certain allegiances, like, oh, let's interview that person because they were instrumental or this institution because they're this. So you have those, you have those implicit kind of moments that you want to favor. Whereas going into the States, I went, I didn't go as a dancer. So the dance world was, everyone was on equal terms with me. So I didn't need to favor anybody. It was about what you had to say. And I think that was, that allowed me to be impartial. And just things like the universities dance programs and systems I didn't really knew existed, and the level of funding that they get. And the sort of facilities, it was, it was incredible. We just don't have that in the UK. So I mean, yeah it opened up my eyes to something completely different, the way that they approach dance. And I know it's not perfect, but, you know, over here with the academy system that we have, it was very, very different. So yeah, I think we just brought a more open minded view to it. And it would have been maybe different if we made a film about the UK jazz dance world, Zak, I don't know if you agree?
51:58
Absolutely. I think it's definitely important, as documentarians, to step back and listen to everyone and taking everyone's views. I mean, we, how many were, 51 interviewees, 4 countries, 11 cities. And actually, that's only 51 interviewees that made it into the final cut film version. So I think we got 75 to 80 interviewees in total, interviews in total. So, I think, as Brits, it was very important for us to just listen and not let anyone dictate anything to us.
52:34
And you got, I mean, that must have been amazing to interview Chita Rivera.
52:41
Let me tell you a little story. She is one of my all time favorite artists since I was a child. I've loved Chita Rivera. And then when I found out that I actually was going to interview Chita, my heart stopped, love the woman. After the interview happened, she walked out, I think I nearly fainted in the chair. (laughs). But yeah, wonderful. And Graziella Danielle as well who was with her in the same interview. It was just, I mean, I may not have been there, like you could just turn on the camera and let them speak, because they were amazing.
53:24
Go ahead.
53:25
Oh just to say, it is a stroke of genius on our producers part. That I think that was our first New York interview she scheduled. And it was like - right, from New York, we kick off with Chita Rivera, and we're like, that's brilliant. It's the best thing to come to New York. I think she's scheduled us well, for that just set the pace for the rest of the shoot.
53:44
So then also, later on down the line, we had Debbie Allen as well, which is one of Khadifa's kind of queens.
53:56
You see, I'm old enough. I remember the TV show Fame and Debbie, you know, and things like that. And that again gets back to this 80s-90s Zeitgeist basically, where dance was, not realizing at the time, but dance was so readily available.
54:12
Absolutely. Fame was the first TV show I think I was actually allowed to watch. I was three or four when it first came out. And just, you know, was like this woman came on and was just incredible. And the way she was so disciplined and every dance teacher I had, if they were like, Lydia Grant, I was like that's it, that's the dance teacher I want. So I really responded to any dance teacher that, you know, came and was really harsh on you and stuff, it's like, it was absolutely amazing to interview her. Luckily didn't gotten I wanted to say like - you made me, but didn't thankfully. Kept my cool.
54:49
And again, we don't want to spoil. There's some great stories that come out of these interviews besides the commentary, and the history. But once I wanna give a shout out to your, your director of photography, because the way you capture the dance is, I mean, even if you don't care about the story or whatever, I think just watching some of these scenes of dancing is just absolutely amazing.
55:18
Yeah. Matt Simpkins is, and he is a dancer too. So I think, it was one of the things when we sort of met him and found out he was a dancer. Lisa introduced us. It was like he was so on board with what we wanted to do, because we just said we don't want to film it from on and have from the audience. Because it did start off as a documentary about dance for dancers. Originally, we were only targeting dancers at the very, very beginning. So we were like, you know, Matt, we want it to look dancers and he was like, say no more. And I think the first time, you know, we got to Chicago. He had no rehearsal, no setup. They said, oh, we prepared this dance numbers for you. And he was like, okay. It's 11 minutes long so they can only do it once. And he had to just get in there and just move around. And I've never seen anyone look, you know, like the color drained down of them, but he had to go filming like a continuous thing for like 11 minutes. All these dances rushing about. But yeah, his visuals are absolutely incredible and it was just exactly what we wanted for the film, is immersive. This is how dancers see class. This is how we see rehearsal. This is the little bits of body parts. That's how we focus and hone in on things to learn. And that's what we want to mirror. And he got that from day one. You know, it's brilliant, is a brilliant collaboration.
56:37
And I liked how you also went to, you know, you're in Calgary, you're in all kinds of places that wouldn't normally think of for certainly for jazz dance, or at least to the layman's knowledge. And I think the people you capture there, they all seem so genuine. And it's beautiful. It's actually that in of itself, I think some of those segments can be works of art, you know, very, very compelling stuff. I've loads of questions, but I'm going to wrap things up. I just want to also say, whose idea was the, I don't want to give too much away because it came as a quite a surprise to me when I was watching, but there's this White Nights cameo, whose idea was that? (laughter) Okay, no, say no more, no, go ahead.
57:31
We wanted, Gregory Hines is so influential and so key. And it was like, how do we get him in this film? Because sadly, he's no longer with us. It was like, when I saw, I remember going back to watch White Nights as part of research. And that monologue, I was just like, well, this is just everything in a nutshell, in whatever 30 seconds of however long it is, this is everything. I didn't know, it felt like, when I watched, it felt like he Gregory Hines himself gone off script and fall on a monologue. And I thought that's perfect. This is how we get Gregory in the film.
58:07
And then your producers trying to remind you how much that archival footage is gonna cost, but somehow you still got it in there.
58:15
Somehow we did. And big thanks to Taylor Hackford for saying yeah, sure, absolutely. He was very generous and very kind. So we send mad props to Taylor Hackford for allowing us to appropriate his work a little bit.
58:30
So, well, we've already kind of, we've already talked about some of the challenges now of being filmmakers and in terms of what's going on now with COVID and things like that. But I know you're concentrating on the project at hand and long may you enjoy it, but what's next for the both of you?
58:51
Well, I'm doing a, teaming up again with a few of the people from Uprooted and we're - the editor, specifically Joan Gill Amorim. She's an American as well and lives in the UK. And she used to be a football player. And she and I really enjoyed capturing the, you know, the way we edited Max's movement and stuff like that. So we wanted to do something movementy again. So we're looking at something about women's football or soccer as the Americans would say.
59:19
It's legitimate word. (laughter)
59:23
That's in early stages, and we're hoping that we're going to sort of get the ground and then we're exploring some other options. And Zak and I will always be working on something together. We hit that way creatively. So we're exploring a few options, and we've got a few things in the pipeline.
59:29
Zak, I've seen your bio, I know you're a busy man. But what's next for you?
59:46
I continue to be Head of jazz dance at Millennium Performing Arts. That continues every single year. And I would like, I'm going to put this out there. I would like to start my own jazz company. We have very few in the UK, I could think of maybe one or two. I would like my own company. So that's kind of where I would put energy in the future.
1:00:11
Okay, well, if anyone with means is listening or watching this podcast and is motivated by this to learn more about jazz dance, we'll put, we'll have links to your different social media accounts and things like that in the show notes so they can reach out to you. But I think that sounds like a great idea. And I think, you know, I think that's excellent. I think also, if you wanted to leverage what you've already done, I think there's a lot of individual subjects that you could even out of this film, explore further, you know. Some of the people, let me, first of all, I actually just have to make a mention, because we haven't even mentioned her, but you could, I don't know if there's a Katherine Dunham doc out there or not. It would be difficult.
1:01:06
My hope is that anyone now, that we've opened the door for any dancers to turn filmmakers and start making individual stories. Because every sort of five minutes go by in this film and you're like that's a film in itself. And that was what was so challenging to edit, it was trying to work out how much airtime you gave when you knew each moment was a film. It could be, you know, you could film 90 minutes with just this one subject. And so the hope is that now that they've seen it can be done, that there is an appetite for it, that other dancers will now start making films about these subjects. Because it needs to come from a dancers perspective, I think along with you know, filmmakers and stuff. But you know, dancers need to sort of take hold of their narrative and their stories and really put them out there in the film world to preserve them for legacy. Because we don't often, we can't often hold on to it because it happens on stage or happens on the streets and it's not always filmed.
1:02:00
And Zak, if you don't mind, I think I'm gonna let Khadifa have the last word on that. I think that's a great way, if you're okay with that. All right, I see the thumbs up. So I just want to thank Khadifa Wong and Zak Nemorin, the filmmakers behind Uprooted - the Journey of Jazz dance for coming on to the podcast. It's been a pleasure having you on. I want to give a shout out to This Is Distorted Studios here in Leeds, England. And to remind you to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America signing off.
1:02:40
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