Arnold: Exploring Schwarzenegger‘s Three Lives
Arnold Schwarzenegger is one of the most recognisable figures in the world today. His meteoric rise to fame began in the 1960s and 70s when he won the coveted Mr Olympia and Mr Universe bodybuilding titles multiple times. In the 80s and 90s, Schwarzenegger starred in some of the most successful action films ever to be made, including The Terminator, Terminator 2: Judgment Day, and Predator. And in 2003, he won election as governor of California, a feat he would repeat in 2007.
But life hasn’t always gone so perfectly for Schwarzenegger. Drug use and allegations of sexual misconduct are just two of the controversies that he has faced. And in 2011, Maria Shriver, his wife of 25 years, left him, when he admitted to having had an affair several years earlier.
In a new Netflix docu-series Arnold, Schwarzenegger reflects on the highs and lows of his life. From its humble beginnings in post-war Austria, stardom in America, to life at 75, his new ventures, and pets.
Joining Matthew Sherwood is Lesley Chilcott, the director of Arnold. Amongst other things, she discusses Schwarzenegger’s ‘laser focus’, the secret to his success, his failures, his humour, and the mystery of what might be called his prescience. Lesley also talks about how she likes to ‘edit musically’, the challenge of making a docu-series about such a rich and diversely lived life, and even the comic idea of ‘Arnold’s limitlessness’.
Schwarzenegger may indeed be one of the most recognisable people alive today but that doesn’t mean we know everything about him. Join Matthew and Lesley as they unpeel the layers from the life of Arnold.
“... a good friend of [Schwarzenegger’s], Paul, always says, You know, I've known Arnold for 40 years, and he sees around corners, and I don't know how he does it. And I don't know what's planned versus what isn't, even though I talk to him almost every day.” – Lesley Chilcott
Time Stamps
02:14 – Matthew Sherwood introduces this episode’s guest, Lesley Chilcott, and her film, Arnold
04:16 – Discussing how you make a documentary about such a well known figure as Arnold Schwarzenegger
09:48 – Arnold Schwarzenegger: the actor
11:14 – The secret to Arnold Schwarzenegger’s success
11:45 – Arnold Schwarzenegger: the bodybuilder
13:18 – Ways in which Arnold Schwarzenegger surprised Lesley
18:38 – Exploring Arnold Schwarzenegger’s early years
23:56 – Lesley on her philosophy of ‘edit musically’
27:46 – James Cameron and The Terminator
30:34 – The challenge of making the Arnold the actor and politician episodes
33:01 – Arnold Schwarzenegger’s commitment to training for his film roles
33:58 – Arnold Schwarzenegger the comic actor and his prescience
37:16 – How Lesley gets beyond her subjects’ talking points
39:51 – How Lesley became involved in the Arnold project
41:39 – Arnold Schwarzenegger’s receptiveness to the docu-series and preparing for the interviews
48:36 – Arnold Schwarzenegger’s complicated legacy
52:35 – For Arnold: what could have been (politically) and the effects of growing old
55:16 – Lesley’s next project
Resources:
Arnold
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Lesley Chilcott
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 136: Arnold: Exploring Schwarzenegger‘s Three Lives
Matthew Sherwood 00:00 (02:14)
This is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary, and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. How do you make a documentary about someone known simply by his first name? Arnold Schwarzenegger certainly needs no introduction. Or does he? In this three part docu-series award-winning filmmaker Lesley Chilcott chronicles Arnold's rise from rural postwar Austria, to the highest echelons of the American dream. Join us as we talk with Lesley about all the layers that make Arnold Schwarzenegger such a compelling subject for a documentary, and how she went about revealing the man behind the larger-than-life persona. Prepare yourself for a masterclass in documentary filmmaking. Stay tuned.
Matthew Sherwood 00:44
Lesley Chilcott, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?
Lesley Chilcott 00:48
Things are pretty awesome, right now. And I'm really happy to be here with you.
Matthew Sherwood 00:52
Well, I imagine they are pretty awesome. We're talking about your new doc, or docu-series to be more accurate, streaming on Netflix. And it's Arnold. I don't know if I need to say any more than that. But congratulations! And at least here in the UK, which is where we're based, it's the top film on Netflix, certainly the last few days. So, you've got a real success story on your hands, but maybe you probably always knew that it was going to be, but I'm sure there were challenges getting there, and whatnot. So, thanks again...
Lesley Chilcott 01:26
I did not know that it was going to be, and to hear that it's one in the UK is really cool. I actually didn't know that. Thank you.
Matthew Sherwood 01:33 (04:16)
Well, at least when I get on it is. So, I think - depending on how these algorithms work, that's what's showing up when I look at it. Now, you know, and it was very kind of you to say you've listened to a few episodes. You know, we usually start off by asking the filmmakers what is the film about, but it's - it seems kind of funny in this one, what is Arnold about? So, maybe we start off with, how do you go about making a doc about someone who's known by just one name? You know, we've had, like, the filmmakers behind Tina, who, you know, unfortunately passed away a few weeks ago, but he's one of these interesting characters who's - you say one name and people know automatically who you're talking about.
Lesley Chilcott 02:18
Yeah, I think that's right. But to be honest with you, when I first got the call about this, I thought what's not to know, you know, because Arnold has been such a public figure. You know, I'm from California, he was our governor for seven years. And this unlikely trajectory is somewhat known. But when I started really thinking about, you know, when a filmmaker decides, you know, what the next project is for them, for me, it has to have at least four layers, preferably six.
Matthew Sherwood 02:56
Oh wow. Okay!
Lesley Chilcott 02:59 (07:24)
But, you know, I'm like, does Arnold have these layers, you know, because he's such a public figure. But the fact that he came from such humble beginnings in Austria, and then actually decided that bodybuilding, which was an obscure sport, then, you know, this was the 60s, and he decided that bodybuilding was his way out of Austria. And then I started learning about how he was envisioning things and things that became, you know, very popular later in the 70s, whether it was New Age movement, or just general psychology. And he was from this village of broken men, because Austria was on the losing side of World War Two, you know, and all the kids fathers were dealing with that because they all fought, and you go from there to, Yeah, okay. I can see Arnold making it as far as Conan, right? Because those characters were supersize comic book larger-than-life characters. But he did it at a time when you have these actors that were tiny, that were doing really well. And it was sort of more introspective; he's not as an actor, particularly introspective, you know, performer. And then the fact that, you know, we have this mess, and when you're from California, it's so great that we have the recall, but when we do it is a total mess. It is a total shitshow. And, you know, over 130 people - and we just had it with Gavin Newsom, the people that were entering, it's nuts. And the fact that he turned that, like he always does, into an opportunity; that he used a competition to become governor not just running against a Democrat or an independent, he was running against all these other people. And, you know, as you'll see in the doc, he's like, I love those guys. You know, we had Larry Flynt, we had a porn star, we had actor Gary Coleman; we had all these people, and he's like, those guys made me look good. You know? And that's how I advanced. So, I was like, You know what, there are multiple layers here. And, you know, I decided that it could be a very layered, hopefully interesting to people, documentary.
Matthew Sherwood 05:19
I mean, just out of curiosity, you said at least four but hopefully six layers. Are there definitive layers, or is that more just sort of, you need to have a subject that's multi-layered; that there's much - you're going to be doing a lot of peeling of the onion to get to understand this person...
Lesley Chilcott 05:34
This is a good question. I think it's 40% the former and 60% the latter, because a lot of times, especially people that have been professional athletes, their whole M.O. is to bury all the other things that distract them. And despite Arnold's three distinct phases, right, being an athlete, an actor, and then a politician, it's the athlete training that has guided everything that he has done. But that singular focus - I mean, I've met heads of state, all sorts of wonderful people - that laser focus that he has is unparalleled, at least in the people that I have met. But it also makes it a real challenge as a filmmaker, because you got to get beyond that one thing to get to those other layers. I don't know if that was a very good answer, but it's sort of how I feel.
Matthew Sherwood 06:32
No, I think it's a great answer. And I think it takes a - and you're actually giving us some structure to this interview because I think - maybe that's another place to focus because it is three episodes. It fits along with the three distinct phases of his life and - but you start with athlete, as you've already noted why; I mean, rightfully so; I mean, what is it that we maybe do not know? I mean, for me, like you said, you mentioned Conan the Barbarian already, that's how I - my first early memories are really of Conan the Barbarian and onward. So, I'm too young to remember his bodybuilding era. But there'll be some that do, there'll be some here who don't even remember, or are too young for the movie period. But what it was - I mean, I think, as you said, there's something more to him than is your typical person saying, I just want to bulk up and I'll be famous, isn't it?
Lesley Chilcott 07:27 (09:49)
Yeah, I think, you know, for a long time, you know, one of the things Arnold says in the series is, you know, born in Austria, made in America, right, which was up for consideration as title for a while, you know, as you throw around, you know, what are the titles - as was I'll Be Back, you know, as was - you know, I really wanted that for a while because it perfectly exemplifies Arnold, right; like, he spreads his catchphrases virally in a way that cannot be stopped. But it's more than just what we now call a meme. It's that they also become his mantra, you know, the first movie he did, Stay Hungry, and he collaborated with the authors on that; that is his mantra to this day. So, he has a way of infusing himself, like, into his characters. So, like, you know, you always try and sit back and you're like, what's my thesis for this series, or documentary, or whatever it is. And this one kept evolving, because the obvious thesis with Arnold, and the one that he sincerely feels is the guiding, you know, factor to his life is, with my sense of Austrian discipline. He also has a version of this, combined with American opportunity, I was able to do X Y Z, right.
Matthew Sherwood 08:55
Yeah.
Lesley Chilcott 08:56 (11:14)
And for me, his actual secret sauce, besides being the most strategic person, one of the most strategic people I've had the chance to work with, is, yes, it's the Austrian sense of discipline, combined with the opportunity of America, but building a key tribe of people to surround himself with to win the world.
Matthew Sherwood 09:22
Well, he says - I'm sorry, go ahead.
Lesley Chilcott 09:24 (11:45)
No, no, no, like, he, you know, he always espouses, I'm not a self-made man because I had all this help and this group of people, but it's really true. And he in bodybuilding, even when he was 15 years old, he would go down to the lake, the Thalersee Lake, which is beautiful, forested area, and all of a sudden there's a lake that's hardly larger than a pond. And they would work out; like, hanging from the tree branches doing pull-ups and sit-ups and there was someone who would bring an old fashioned barbell that was left there, and then someone drove a spike into a tree later to do pull-ups, and other things. It was always a group. He quickly became the leader of each group. But there was always, you know, he thrives with an audience, but he really listens. I mean, he even listened to me, right when we first met, and we didn't know each other well at that point. So, I think that's another layer for him. Another layer is these bad dad jokes that you hear him telling all the time. That's really him. He's really that hilarious goofball. It's true!
Matthew Sherwood 10:21 (13:18)
I'm gonna have to let my children watch because they'll get - that's interesting. So, that - I mean - I'll get to the obvious question that we eventually get to is, like, you know, is, here's this larger than life character, you've now had a chance to work with him for a few years, and is that - he's everything you would expect - I mean, I guess there are things we would expect, but is there anything else that kind of surprised you when you were working with him?
Lesley Chilcott 11:05
Yeah, his humour surprised me. The way he structures his day, you know; he's up early in the morning; he actually sleeps less than most people. He sleeps five, six hours a night and always has. So, clearly he's got, you know, an hour or two of fun everybody else or most people, and he - this cultivating of friendships, was really surprising to me. He's much more complex in terms of family and friends, relationships, and always thinking several steps ahead in what his next thing is. I mean, I gotta be honest, he's got a lovely place where he lives, he has the coolest animals; you know, Lulu and Whisky, the mini-donkey, the mini-horse, he has a little pig now. And I think, you know, he's going to turn 76 in a couple of weeks, I think I'd be like, Okay, I did all these crazy things, but, you know, what is he doing? He's launching a new app, of course, it's called The Pump, you know, and we're like, Why didn't anyone do this previously, but that that's coming out. He's got a self-help book, because people like his philosophy. And he just doesn't, he just doesn't give up because he truly loves working. And more than anyone I've met, I know it's like, second or third time, I said, this, he loves being an American, you know; at this time of this fractured society, like, he hasn't lost that part of his vision. And it's really, you know, surprising. But the other thing is, Arnold the Flawed is also a part of his layers. He went in the series, and we agreed nothing was off the table. But he went there. And he knew he had to talk about those things. He did talk about those things. And some of those things he's never going to talk about again, but he recognises, and, you know, these, you know, somewhat significant flaws.
Matthew Sherwood 13:12 (15:46)
Yeah. And I think we'll be talking more about some of those, probably later on in our chat together. I think, actually, I was going to, well, let's hold off on giving a break. But let's, I mean, I think another part of the mantra that also comes to mind that kept coming up was something from his father, which was 'Do something useful', right. So, that's kind of factored in this as well...
Lesley Chilcott 13:37
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 13:38
And maybe gets back to this point that he just doesn't turn it off. He's still working.
Lesley Chilcott 13:43
Yeah. And I have to tell you, normally, I'd shy away from those pithy...
Matthew Sherwood 13:49
Right.
Lesley Chilcott 13:50
... statements; right, because you're like, Okay, we can handle a couple each episode. But, you know, it's kind of like, you know, can you really put it all in a neat little bow like that? But he's got, like, ten of them, and they haven't changed in forty years, you know; so, I think part of the responsibility you have as a filmmaker is not to soften those things. And with Arnold, you know, we wanted to give you some of what you know, you know, because that really is him. It's not like he has this completely different persona off-screen or when he's not governing and he absolutely is different. He's much, I think, smarter than the characters he chooses to play in all these movies would lend itself to believe. In fact, he's most like the character in Twins, you know, and I would say, I don't know what he would say, I think he'd probably say Kindergarten Cop, but he's really most like that with just this glaring optimism. And I think that, with him leaving some of those out, even though some of them are like, Oh, you know, this again!
Matthew Sherwood 15:12
Right, right.
Lesley Chilcott 15:13
... you know, he walks around talking to his animals that way when no one's around, you know, because, you know, we came over early one morning to film him because he has this routine. And I was like, I need to, you know, film some of these basic things. And my camera and sound guy, it was just us, we're waiting around the corner, and I come around, and he's like, having a conversation with his animals, you know, as himself saying these things. So, you know, you'd have to decide: I have to be authentic to how that character really is.
Matthew Sherwood 15:44
And in terms of that authenticity, I mean, you're also - we're also kind of started this off about - talking about how, you know, how do you go about making a film about someone who we all think we already know; I mean, is this also an opportunity - I mean, not that you see it so explicitly like this, but this is an opportunity to sort of debunk myths or misconceptions, whether positive or negative about an individual or is it - or do you even look at it that way, it's more just, let's find who - let's start unpeeling these layers, and let's see who comes out?
Lesley Chilcott 16:20 (18:39)
I think I always love - I mean, I think a lot of filmmakers do - I love debunking myths, right; where there are actually myths, and I think that construct - you know, everyone has these formative childhood years, but because he lived in a place of such pristine beauty, but humble; you know, the reason their house looked as nice as it did is because it was free, because his father was a police commissioner. So, they lived on the second floor - what we say in the US is the second floor - and the forester lived on the first floor, you know, and he grew up in this idyllic area, across from this crumbling castle, and he could walk to that lake, you know, where he works out. But he had an abusive, unpredictable father, who taught him discipline. But I mean, you know, we had this scene where there were only a handful of photos, there's lots of photos later, but from Arnold's childhood, that was a time where not a lot of photos were being taken, right, you know, it's 1947, and certainly not by, you know, families of little means, in their case. And, you know, when he told me a tonne of childhood stories there were two that really stuck with me. I mean, one's not, ultimately, you know, when they talk about killing your darlings, one of my favourite scenes is not in the film. But this idea that the father would have the brothers compete against each other for attention, and when Mother's Day was coming up, you know, his father said, You go out and go hiking and pick flowers, and we'll see who has the best bouquet. We'll see who wins. I mean, that's weird, right? I mean, I don't want to pass too much judgement, but that's a strange way; like, go pick your mother's flowers is nice. Who can do it better when one kid is taller and older, and like, it's weird. So, we went to the area where he picked the flowers from, and we shot at the time of the year when they were blooming. And it's always great, you know, when you're directing something, and you can shoot in the real locations, in, you know, in the documentary, and you can't do it for everything. But when you can, you know, that forest scene in Episode One was the real forest, you know, he went through to get to class to pick up his older brother. So, these childhood, formative things, were really, really indelibly marked or scarred, and he would slip into talking about them, and then a minute or two later, he would justify them, you know, oh, well, the neighbour's kids were also being hit or the teacher was hitting people. But he has these little tells, you know, every once in a while, like one eyebrow is slightly different than the other when he's really thinking something and he'll look a certain way. And I think, with someone who has as many talking points as someone who was governor and a great promoter of films, you have to keep going and going and going and going until you finally get to what's - you know, you peel the onion, like you were saying until you finally get to that other layer.
Matthew Sherwood 19:41 (21:59)
And what was this favourite scene that you had to - you end up on the cutting room floor?
Lesley Chilcott 19:46
So, he - the banana story; so, he does, it's still in there, you know, we preserved it. Well, how to phrase this: when he was younger, he was sick a lot. He caught everything. And his brother who was only a year older seemed to have a better stamina. But he got sick and was in the hospital once for six weeks. And at that time, he had another little boy that was in the room with him, but his parents weren't allowed to come in. So, he would walk up to the window and wave to his parents who would be two stories down below. And the kid in the bed next to him was a little better off, and his parents would send bananas up to him, and the kid would get one banana. And Arnold was like, what is that?
Matthew Sherwood 20:36
They were luxury items back then.
Lesley Chilcott 20:41
And he never had a banana. And he asked the kid for some of the banana and the kid wouldn't share. But he gave Arnold the banana peel. So, he scraped off the inside of the banana peel with his teeth. And it's just hard to believe, you know, and so we did kind of, I'm allergic to the word recreation, because I like more impressionistic things, especially if they're people's memories. And so, we did an original photography scene with that, that was really touching. But it had to go in the end. So, that was sad.
Matthew Sherwood 21:18
Well, it's an interesting story. I just - well, there must be so many - I mean, just generally not even this film, you always have so many of these, I can imagine, what's the last thing that gets cut from a film, you know...
Lesley Chilcott 21:32 (23:57)
I know, I know. And it's always whether you're just trying to keep up a pace or, you know, I mean, my philosophy is to edit musically.
Matthew Sherwood 21:44
Okay.
Lesley Chilcott 21:45
So, it's a little bit of a twist on a variation on what on Walter Murch says. I think he says something like, 'cut with rhythm', or, or...
Matthew Sherwood 21:55
Right, right.
Lesley Chilcott 21:56
... you know, that kind of thing. But I always; like, I do playlists for each episode before we cut. And it's not, I'm not saying - and I give them to the editors. And I'm not saying use these songs, I'm saying, This is what I have in my head. And they could be from various time periods. And usually, it's like a couple current day songs, and then something vintage; like, I always try and do something personal; something vintage, something classic. And then something - a song I didn't know that maybe just put me in a place. And usually it's things I'm finding while I'm in my car, right. And so, a naked playlist, the music supervisor pulls it, and then we all kind of have that. But what I mean by editing musically is find whatever the rhythm is, of that scene, and go with it. And then I like to turn off the music and make sure the scene works without music. Because a lot times it's really tempting to cheat.
Matthew Sherwood 22:59
Right.
Lesley Chilcott 23:01
... music is so important, and my cinematographers laugh because I'm, like, I'm so picky about visuals, the visuals don't matter if you don't have a good sound, and the right music or no music on key scenes. I think audiences really respond to what is going on, what they're hearing, more so than they realise. I mean, we have examples all the time. You can see some crappy looking footage on YouTube. But it's really good because you can hear what's going on. And it's just a great story, you know.
Matthew Sherwood 23:35
Right, right. I think that brings us to a really good point to give our listeners a quick break. So, we'll be right back with Lesley Chilcott the award-winning filmmaker behind Arnold. Docu-series now streaming on Netflix.
Factual America Midroll 23:51
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter @alamopictures to keep up-to-date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the programme, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
Matthew Sherwood 24:10
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Lesley Chilcott, the award-winning filmmaker behind Arnold, which is now streaming on Netflix, certainly top here in the UK. We were - I think our discussion took an interesting turn towards bananas and music, even though we're talking about the, maybe world's greatest action hero of all times, potentially. I mean, getting back to him. So, your first episode is about the athlete and a lot of that is about the discipline and everything that set him up for what was to come. And you've already mentioned he's born in Austria, made in America, but then he becomes an actor. And he's not just satisfied with being in the movies, he wants to be the leading man. I mean, that is - and at a time - you've already talked about what was going on in the 70s, and Pacino and Hoffman, these weren't - these guys were slight of stature, which I'm happy with since being one myself. But, you know, he was just out of left field that he wanted to do this and yet, lo and behold, he becomes - he achieves it.
Lesley Chilcott 25:27 (27:46)
Yeah, I mean, that's right. Even when he first met with James Cameron, which was one of our most important, if not our most important interview, because they haven't just worked together. James Cameron truly knows the real Arnold, and Arnold's tight with a handful of people. Unfortunately, his best friend Franco, you know, passed a few years ago. And that would have been really something, you know, to be able - you know, to get - we tried to bring him in in other ways, but he was such a great friend, and such an interesting human, that would have been nice. But James Cameron really knows him and has really influenced Arnold's career. I mean, for me personally, when Terminator came out, that dystopian view of the future was so seared in my memory...
Matthew Sherwood 26:23
Right.
Lesley Chilcott 26:23
... even though it was a sci-fi movie, and somewhat absurd in many ways, I just loved it, you know; and then later, you learn, Oh my God, that movie was made for only $6 million. Like, how is that possible? And there's all these things kind of going on there. So, you know, James Cameron said the first time he went and met Arnold for a lunch, that Arnold was like, I don't want to be an actor. I want to be a star. You know, and James Cameron was like, Okay, buddy, you know?! Like, I know you from Conan. And he had this really insightful thing, is that, up to that point Arnold had been The Body. And James Cameron, you know, he talks about how the light hit his face, and it fell on that jawline during the, you know, their first meeting, and he's like, this guy's face is intriguing, you know. And, you know, the famous story is that initially, he was supposed to play Reese.
Matthew Sherwood 27:24
Right.
Lesley Chilcott 27:25
... and Arnold just kept talking about how the Terminator should behave. And they ended up, you know, Arnold ends up playing the Terminator. So - and James Cameron also, you know, tells this story about, you know, I think one of the most famous lines in film history was "I'll be back" and, you know, Arnold was like, I, you know, I'm a guy with an accent. I don't think I'd say "I'll", you know, plus I'm a machine; I mean, the line has to be "I WILL be back". And as it was originally written in the script, it was "I'll come back".
Matthew Sherwood 27:59
Right.
Lesley Chilcott 28:00
Right; so, Arnold just argued till he was, like, blue in the face. And, you know, James Cameron was like, Are you the fucking writer?
Matthew Sherwood 28:08
Yeah, literally, that's what he says, yeah.
Lesley Chilcott 28:12 (30:35)
I could just picture that happening! So, we really needed those stories, because the challenge with the actor episode is, you know, Arnold's been in over 70 films, we can't do it justice...
Matthew Sherwood 28:25
Right, right.
Lesley Chilcott 28:25
... you know, and I'm like, everybody's gonna be like, where's this movie, or where's - why isn't there more on Total Recall, or whatever it is.
Matthew Sherwood 28:32
Or Kindergarten Cop?
Lesley Chilcott 28:34
What's that?
Matthew Sherwood 28:35 Or even kindergarten Cop, which I don't think - I don't know if I remember seeing a scene from Kinder - you know, I mean, like you said, there's just all these different movies.
Lesley Chilcott 28:42
Of course, there was a scene with Kindergarten Cop that was quite long, you know, as was, you know, all these other things; like, both the joy and, you know, my first love is feature documentaries. And what I love about series is you can actually do a deeper dive, but then you still have this construct of these hour long, you know, whether they're 45 minutes or an hour and two minutes, or whatever they are, episodes, that you still have the same challenges, right, you just have to have three complete arcs instead of, you know...
Matthew Sherwood 29:12
Right, right.
Lesley Chilcott 29:15 (31:36)
So, yeah. So, a lot of times, you know, and riffing on that same topic that you brought up, when we got to the governor, there's no way we could cram seven years of him being Governor into 30 minutes of Episode Three, right.
Matthew Sherwood 29:30
Right.
Lesley Chilcott 29:31
So, it had to be more about his governing style, and how different he was, and how he rewired the brains of his staff to not recognise obstacles and all of that, so - sorry, I'm rambling.
Matthew Sherwood 29:46
No, you're not rambling. You're actually - that's a nice segue, but before we actually talk about him as the politician, I mean, the thing that struck me about the - well, there's a lot of things that strike me throughout all the - the whole docu-series - but in that one about the actor, I mean, the James Cameron stories that - you're right, are just incredible, and yet, you know, as I think I mentioned earlier before, my first - what I picked up on in the cultural zeitgeist, if you will, at the time, was, here's this dumb jock bodybuilder guy who just did Conan the Barbarian, and who - you know what - this is so typical of Hollywood, that this guy becomes a movie, you know, big star, but it couldn't be further from the truth, as you show. I mean, he's like, I mean, obviously took advantage of the fact that he had a certain body type and things, but, you know, he does acting lessons, he does all these things to better himself to achieve what he's trying to become. And as you said, I mean, yeah... What's that? He trains, yes.
Lesley Chilcott 30:43 (33:01)
... everything that he does, he trains. And it sounds like such a basic concept. But, you know, even while we were filming the documentary, FUBAR came into the picture, and he, you know, we would show up, or I would just - I did a lot of audio only interviews with him, you know, without camera and lights, to sort of try and get past the talking points...
Matthew Sherwood 30:44
Right.
Lesley Chilcott 30:45
... and sometimes I would show up, and he would be there with his acting coach, you know, reading the script, running lines. And he did it for months and months, you know; so, he really does train and study; and the fact that he and Stallone were running neck-and-neck, although Arnold is always physically supersized compared to Stallone - and most people...
Matthew Sherwood 31:37
Yeah.
Lesley Chilcott 31:38 (33:57)
... at the height of all that, after Predator, Commando; like, all of that, he was, like, Yeah, comedy, you know...
Matthew Sherwood 31:45
Well, yeah.
Lesley Chilcott 31:46
I'm going to try comedy. Because, you know, I know I'm funny, you know, maybe nobody else - you know, his friends knew. But like, the public didn't know that. And it's such a risk. And, you know, I think the essential mystery of Arnold is did he see the trend coming and pivot? Like, action and comedy; like, did he somehow, six years early know he was going to make True Lies...
Matthew Sherwood 32:15
Right.
Lesley Chilcott 32:15
... did he set the trend? Or did he just ride the wave? And a good friend of his, Paul, always says, You know, I've known Arnold for 40 years, and he sees around corners. And I don't know how he does it. And I don't know what's planned versus what isn't, even though I talk to him almost every day. You know, and so, an example of that would be in 2003, he did Terminator 3. He got paid $30 million. And then the recall happens, and he runs for governor. So, I mean, was he poised and ready to go? Could he have predicted the recall? Like, did he make 30 million because he knew for seven years, he wasn't going to be earning those box office dollars, but no one could have predicted the recall. And yet, that was how he won, because there wasn't a traditional Republican primary, you know. And so, it's kind of, like, you know, one of my personal philosophies about documentaries is like, each film is its own puzzle, right, and you put all the pieces together, and there's not a script, so you're putting all the pieces together, but do you complete the puzzle? Or do you leave a couple of pieces out so that the audience can fill in those pieces however, you know, they wish? And Arnold is kind of like that. He's that kind of a puzzle, you know?
Matthew Sherwood 33:47
Yeah.
Lesley Chilcott 33:47
And so, it kind of - this voyage that you go on to - you know that Mar - I always - for me that Marcel Proust quote, that the real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes. So, Arnold seems like familiar territory, right, so how do we look at this differently? And how do we get - you know, he didn't have control, but he gave us access. So, how do you get your subject to show you those other sides? That's one challenge, which we've talked about. But then, how do you take this massive body of work and cram it into an hour? Like, we can't get all the puzzle pieces in, right.
Matthew Sherwood 34:40 (37:17)
Exactly. Or it would be 5000 piece puzzle. It's like, to take the analogy way too far. But I mean, it's like - but you actually mentioned just something briefly, I wanted to touch - you mentioned something earlier that to get beyond the talking points or whatever you did audio only interviews. Is that - I know some people who're doing a political doc, actually, and it's this issue, the person they're interviewing is always on-message, always has the same five, six points they're hammering on it at the time. And have you found that a good tool to get beyond that? I mean, there's other things you try to do, to get that person to be less off-message - or less on-message, I should say - but is that a helpful tool?
Lesley Chilcott 35:26
For me, it is, you know, everyone has their own methods. Like, a lot of people believe really strongly in the pre-interview. But for me, I get frustrated if I do a pre-interview, because even if I interview them a month later, the subject acts like we've already had this conversation, especially if they're a regular person; you know, Like, as I said, or like I said before, or, you know, because everybody's polite, you know, so they throw in these things. So, I like to start out with, Hey, here's a couple of subjects we're going to cover today. And, you know, I don't give any questions. I don't even use my own questions, I put them away, and we just, like, have a conversation. But way back when we were making An Inconvenient Truth, Davis and I, like, finally in, like, the seventh interview with Al Gore, you know, we got off the talking points. And then near the end of the documentary, we did this interview, when AI was staying at a hotel in Santa Monica, that was just Davis, me, and the sound guy, right, and that interview, which went on so long that the sun set outside...
Matthew Sherwood 36:39
Right...
Lesley Chilcott 36:39
... and Al ends up, like, slumped in his chair like this, Like, is this ever going to freakin' end? You know, that's, like, half the audio that's used. And so, it was a real lesson, especially if someone's been a politician, to get them off of - because, you know, we all have talking points, politicians have official talking points.
Matthew Sherwood 36:58
Right. Right.
Lesley Chilcott 37:02
And so, I find that really helpful, and what I do is I just bring my own sound equipment over, and, you know, it's not just my phone, it's, like, decent sound equipment. And we do a whole series of interviews, and honestly, even if you don't - we used a lot of it - but even if you don't, you've built a different relationship with that person...
Matthew Sherwood 37:25
Right.
Lesley Chilcott 37:26
... that can inform your next interview. So, I don't know. I mean, it works for me.
Matthew Sherwood 37:32
Okay. So, we've been talking a lot about Arnold, and the project, and the film, but how did this come about? How did you become involved?
Lesley Chilcott 37:42 (40:00)
I got a call from Allen Hughes, our executive producer, and he had seen a six part series that I did called Helter Skelter: An American Myth, to your point about myths...
Matthew Sherwood 37:55
Right.
Lesley Chilcott 37:57
And he really liked the way that I approached the original photography, in that he sort of has a similar view of me that, you know, some recreations can be very cheesy, as he says...
Matthew Sherwood 38:16
Right.
Lesley Chilcott 38:16
... and he's like, I think you'd be perfect for this. And I'm thinking, Okay, you know, how did you make that transition? Tell me more, you know, a series of about a cult to...!
Matthew Sherwood 38:30
Right!
Lesley Chilcott 38:31
So, and he had a similar approach, you know, when thinking about the idea of Arnold as a series, you know, we were like, wait a second, what's not out there? Especially because he's been so public [coughing]. I'm so sorry. Excuse me.
Matthew Sherwood 38:45
Oh, no worries.
Lesley Chilcott 38:45
So, that was the start of it. And Allen, you know, Allen felt that Netflix was the perfect home. Because Arnold is such an international star; you know, we wanted somewhere with a huge international presence. And, you know, you go anywhere in the world and it's like, people know Bob Marley, they know Marilyn Monroe, and they know Arnold Schwarzenegger!
Matthew Sherwood 39:19
Right, right, right.
Lesley Chilcott 39:20
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 39:21 (41:39)
And was - I mean, was Arnold initially receptive? I mean, obviously, he's become very receptive, he's very involved - you've got a lot of time on camera.
Lesley Chilcott 39:32
He was. I think he'd been approached a lot, especially over the last five years, and I don't think he was ready. I think he had to get to that point...
Matthew Sherwood 39:43
Right.
Lesley Chilcott 39:44
... when he was ready to potentially, you know, go to that vulnerable place. He's always had a tonne of press coverage. But people know that when you make a documentary about them, you know this can get very personal and you have to talk about, you know, like, we had a deal with him that, like I said, nothing was off the table. And I think, you know, as he was approaching his 75th birthday, I think he finally thought, Okay, it's time. And, you know, in the beginning, we got these little windows, you know, where we could shoot, and I chose to interview him in his home office. So, I could get a half hour or more here and there and he didn't have to go anywhere. And he'd feel comfortable, you know, and he was game right from the beginning. I mean, I do a terrible Arnold accent, but, you know, we wanted to do - Logan Schneider, my DP and I - wanted to do a camera test because we thought, Okay, this one interview is going to be the anchor piece of this. And quite honestly, we did it because with Arnold being a film star, we wanted to test anamorphic lenses versus spherical, right, and when we did the test with - and different lighting set-ups, as well, we were - we both knew we were going to shoot very large format, because it, first of all, I think it's an amazing camera. And we used these brand new lenses that weren't out yet, the Signature, if you want to get into this, but we used the Signature Zoom lenses...
Matthew Sherwood 39:53
Okay.
Lesley Chilcott 40:40
... and we had to keep borrowing the beta versions, because they weren't out yet, which became its own drama. "Arnold's only available this day, and the lens is in Iceland, so can it, you know, come back to us?". But the large format, really isolated Arnold in the room to help reflect the big personality that he is. And the test with the anamorphic lenses was beautiful, but it felt like we were in a movie. And, in terms of visual language, I wanted people to feel that we were asking, I was asking him questions, and this is a documentary. So, we went with, you know, spherical, and I'm happy with the choice. But, you know, besides the artistic reasons, we chose that location; you know, it was right at his house, and he came in for the test. And I had moved this couch, so that it was closer to camera. And it was like this big Chippendale style couch, and it looked super cool. And it was his office, and he sits down and he's like, Couches cause you to slouch. Slouching is a loser position. I'm always leaning forward, I need to lean forward. And the entire crew, which was small was just like, Oh my God, who is this guy! And, you know, we'd brought a chair specifically for him to sit in, and I just liked the couch better. And, you know, out goes the couch, in comes the chair, he sits back down. But I mean, if we had an interview time with him at 9am, we were ready at 8:45 because he walks through the door at 9am, and he sits down, and he goes, What do you want to know? You know, and then I would plan things for the rest of the day. And he's like, is that it? Are we going to do anything else? And I'm like, Oh, I have you for more time? And he's like, you do. I'm like, great. We're gonna do this, this, this, this, this, this. And he's just like - he really is, you know, someone who doesn't tire. He tires a little bit now that he's getting older. And after some of the interviews, he was emotionally spent, and we couldn't do much else that day. But most of the time, you know, I'm like, can we come next time you're at your tank? And he's like, yes, you know, and he's a ball of energy.
Matthew Sherwood 43:34 (46:08)
Wow. I mean, it gets to this point of, well, it's as with any documentary, and especially when you're filming someone like Arnold is, yeah, does he think he is - is he treating it as if he's in a movie, right? You know, in terms of performance and things - but I like this - what's this German word? Austrian-German word he uses a lot...
Lesley Chilcott 43:53
Schmäh.
Matthew Sherwood 43:54
Schmäh, yeah. I mean, that was it. Because that's - because even though - I think you play it twice, or there's reference to it twice, but even the thing he said in Pumping Iron, and then he says later, Oh, I just said Schmäh; you know, I was just - the best English translation you can come up with is 'bullshit' or 'BS', you know, it's just kind of, but you have to have it, you know, to get in life, you know, and it's a, it was a very interesting - I think that was another aspect to him that, at least for me, is I didn't have an appreciation for.
Lesley Chilcott 44:27
Yeah, yeah. And not my choice, honestly. That was something that Allen Hughes felt very strongly about, because Arnold kind of revealed that in some early discussions, but for the reason that you said, because Arnold likes to say it's all bullshit, and yet, it's not.
Matthew Sherwood 44:48 ** Right, exactly.
Lesley Chilcott 44:50
So, I didn't want that to be conflicting information...
Matthew Sherwood 44:55
Right.
Lesley Chilcott 44:55
... but this experience you have with Arnold when you're off-camera, and he loves to tell you inside baseball, right, and we wanted to provide that inside baseball experience. But Arnold is always selling, he's always selling...
Matthew Sherwood 45:14
Right.
Lesley Chilcott 45:14
... and he's always selling when no cameras are around. You know, it's like that David Mamet movie, you know, ABC: always be closing, right? I don't know if you saw that, but...
Matthew Sherwood 45:24
No, I've seen that, yeah.
Lesley Chilcott 45:25
Yeah, that really is him. Yet, he has this whole plan and strategy that goes into it. So, in a way showing that fits in with, you know, showing the Arnold we know, and then later you see the Arnold, you know, that we don't know.
Matthew Sherwood 45:45 (48:36)
And then - I mean, because we're actually coming close to the end of our time, and like your film, and, as you've already talked about having such a huge subject, where, you know, we're not going to be able to touch on everything here. And, you know, there's so much to the film, so many layers, and people just need to go watch it to be honest, is what I would suggest, but, you know, there's this thing. So, we've got athlete, actor, politician, or Episode Three is called American, but, and even I think says it, he recognises that there are things that have happened in his life that could overshadow that and could possibly lead him - there are going to affect his legacy, and people are going to remember him for maybe something else. And you've had to, and you've, as you said, you've dealt with those. I mean, how did you handle that - deal with that for yourself personally because, you know, there are these allegations that came up during the gubernatorial race and LA Times articles that they ran about accusations for more than just a handful of women. And how would, you know, how was that aspect of - I mean, you did make him address it.
Lesley Chilcott 47:06
Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting because there are whole segments of the documentary that are clearly from Arnold's point-of-view, you know. Arnold's point of view on how his family reacted when he ran for governor and those kinds of things. And I think those are great, because you get his take on things. But when it came to the accusations, in particular, I wanted another point of view; you know, I interviewed three LA Times reporters, and two of them, Mark Barabak and Joe Mathews, the whole time Arnold was governor, wrote highly critically of him. But even those two were won over by his sheer dedication, and the amount of things he tried, even if they failed, because as a governor, you have a lot of failures, and you have some successes, right. But Carla Hall from the Los Angeles Times, you know, both on and off-camera, you know, shared with me how they really, truly investigated these allegations. And when they reported them, she couldn't believe that it immediately went political. And Arnold at the time, he even gives a speech, it says Where there's smoke, there's fire, you know, and he hints at owning up to it. In the documentary, he flat out says what I did was wrong, right...
Matthew Sherwood 48:32
Right.
Lesley Chilcott 48:33
... and so, the approach to that was it certainly wasn't the first interview, you know; we did a lot of interviews, and at that point, Allen and I went to him and we're like, you know, next Friday is the day. We need to address this, then. And he trusted us at that point. But not only - and Carla Hall is very candid, you know, that there were - you know, there was the first article and then there were 15, 16 women in the next article, and that it wasn't just a one-off by any means. And then we did the same thing with the affair, and he really explains, you know, the viewer has to hold two ideas in their head. One, Arnold had an affair, and did something horrible to his family. On the other hand, there's a 25 year old adult man...
Matthew Sherwood 49:29
Right.
Lesley Chilcott 49:29
... that is the son from that relationship, who's wonderful. And as a parent, you can't say I made a mistake because you have a human. And while I'm not saying he deserves empathy for that, that is a conundrum to think about. What you do in that situation. And why he doesn't talk more about it is only because he doesn't want to hurt his family, but he's very aware that as much as he's remembered, or will be remembered, you know, for all of these successes, everyone knows that story as well.
Matthew Sherwood 50:10 (52:35)
And whatever he wanted to achieve, I don't know, did he ever say anything about - I mean, what could have been? I mean, I don't know if he would have been able to run for president given that he wasn't born in the United States, but...
Lesley Chilcott 50:25
He wasn't able to run. I think he would have really considered it in 2016 [but] constitutionally he couldn't run. But, I mean, I asked him multiple times on - off-camera, you know, like, what's the current goal, or what did you miss? He really, you know, like, he climbs that peak. And then he sees all the other peaks he hasn't climbed, and, you know, one of my favourite parts of the documentary, and maybe this will answer your question is, you know, to have gone from The Body, 13 international awards, and he's like, What is this? What is this little thing below my rib? It's like fat, should I have it surgically removed? You know, like, what should I do about this? I mean, that's like, you know, the rest of us are like, you know, I'm still trying to get in shape, right. And he's fallen so, you know, far physically, but then that same person says, my body wasn't - I don't care what the Guinness Book of World Record says, I was never perfect. I never got there. I'm like, Oh my God, how are the rest of us to feel, you know? It's an interesting perspective.
Matthew Sherwood 51:35
I know. And also, he does say, too, he's 75. He's just now - he's come to grips with it, and he's just trying to hold on.
Lesley Chilcott 51:45
He's just trying to hold on. But during the course of the film, he developed a new philosophy, probably completely unrelated to what we were doing. It's, you know, well, let me back up. If I were to summarise Arnold personally, after knowing him now and making this project. And I'm completely ripping this off from a journalist that I think is amazing, called Tom Junod, but he taught us about the ongoing comedy of Arnold's limitlessness.
Matthew Sherwood 52:14
Right.
Lesley Chilcott 52:15
And, you think that he's done and now he's got a series, and he's got the app as I mentioned, and, you know, there might be a little side project with Lulu and Whisky being stars in it. And there's, like - no, I'm not kidding. It's like crazy. There was a script, there was all this stuff going on. But to me, it's the ongoing comedy of his limitless aspirations that are just, you know, it's endlessly fascinating.
Matthew Sherwood 52:46 (55:15)
Completely agree. And I think we're going to have to leave it there, though I'm going to sneak one last question in because I know we're getting a warning about you've got another appointment. But what's next for you after this film?
Lesley Chilcott 53:01
Another pivot. I'm doing a documentary that takes a look at the new American West and how it clashes with our traditional ideas of the American West of dominion over land, animals, and all of these things. And I think during the pandemic, we all kind of realised or re-realised the importance of wild spaces and wildlife corridors and Yellowstones and those things. So, I'm looking at the wolf, and using the wolf as a portal into talking about all these controversial land preservation issues.
Matthew Sherwood 53:39
Wow. Well, we look forward to that. And I think as your IMDB profile says, you do not like to be categorised or limited, so you're moving - something to that effect - so you're... but no, we'll definitely look forward to that. And we'd love to have you on again, once that project is dropped, if we haven't scared you off. And so, just to remind our listeners, we've been talking with Lesley Chilcott, the award-winning filmmaker behind Arnold. Really don't need to say anything more, except that it's streaming on Netflix. Lesley, thank you so much for joining us on Factual America. It's been a pleasure.
Matthew Sherwood 54:17
We hope you enjoyed that episode of Factual America. If you did, please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. I would also like to thank those who make this podcast possible. A big shout out to Sam and Joe at Innersound Audio in York, England. A big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who makes sure we continue getting great guests onto the show and everything runs smoothly. And finally a big thanks to you, our listeners. Many of you have been with us for four incredible seasons. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. This is Factual America signing off.
Factual America Outro 54:58
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