Chasing Ghislaine Maxwell, Epstein's Alleged Accomplice
Joining us is Vicky Ward, a New York Times bestselling author, investigative journalist and the host and co-producer of Chasing Ghislaine. In 2002 Vicky conducted one of the few interviews ever given by Jeffrey Epstein, the disgraced financier and convicted sex offender.
Vicky has now turned her sights on Epstein's former confidante, Ghislaine Maxwell. The British socialite is currently on trial for allegedly helping Epstein to prey on young girls. Subsequently, Vicky has turned her investigative work into a hit podcast series and new 3-part docuseries, which is available on Discovery+ in the UK and US.
Vicky fills us in on the latest events surrounding Ghislaine Maxwell's trial and continuing efforts to get to the bottom of this murky tale.
“I’ve never had such a horrific experience reporting, before or since.” - Vicky Ward
Time Stamps:
00:00 - The trailer from the docuseries Chasing Ghislaine.
03:08 - What the documentary is all about.
10:24 - The narcissistic nature of Jeffrey Epstein and how he got under people’s skin.
18:13 - Vicky’s relationship with Annie Farmer and her cross-examination.
22:11 - What the media isn’t reporting about the trial.
26:39 - The difficult position the jury is in.
31:44 - Why the prosecution hasn’t brought forward some key witnesses.
36:29 - The importance of hearing the defence’s case before making judgment.
42:14 - The mystery around Robert Maxwell and how Ghislaine and Epstein met.
49:08 - The range of litigations and cases related to Epstein.
53:26 - Why Vicky feels less vulnerable producing a podcast than writing a book.
55:54 - The difference in writing content for podcasts rather than books.
58:35 - The next project Vicky’s working on which focuses on a gothic murder mystery.
1:01:30 - The legacy Vicky hopes to leave with her Chasing Ghislaine docuseries.
1:03:28 - A clip showing Jeffrey Epstein’s relationship towards women.
Resources:
Chasing Ghislaine (2021) on Discovery+
Chasing Ghislaine Podcast
Vanity Fair on Ghislaine Maxwell’s Trial
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Vicky Ward:
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 82: Chasing Ghislaine Maxwell, Epstein's Alleged Accomplice
Vicky Ward 00:00
I'm Vicky Ward. I am the host and co-producer of Chasing Ghislaine, docu-series currently streaming on Discovery Plus. I'm also the author of a Substack newsletter called Vicky Ward Investigates.
Speaker 1 00:20
Ghislaine really could be the key to this shadowy web. I am trying to put the dots together through my reporting.
Speaker 2 00:30
You don't want to believe that a friend of yours is capable of anything that is just monstrous.
Speaker 3 00:40
She could have given the prosecutors Epstein on a platter.
Speaker 4 00:44
Ghislaine told people, 'My father taught me you do whatever it takes to keep your man.'
Speaker 5 00:55
Ghislaine was the kind of 'power geisha' orchestrating everything for Epstein to maximum delight.
Speaker 6 01:07
She was chief administrator.
Speaker 7 01:10
I know that Jeffrey was selling arms.
Speaker 8 01:13
How do you know that?
Speaker 9 01:15
There's a lot of powerful men around Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 10 01:19
The network of guys who enabled these sex crimes: that endures. What about the tapes Epstein made to blackmail people? Does she know where they are?
Speaker 11 01:31
Ghislaine Maxwell may be the last person who could say what actually happened here.
Matthew 01:46
That is a trailer from the gripping three part documentary series, Chasing Ghislaine. And this is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo Pictures, an Austin and London based production company making documentaries about America for international audiences. I'm your host Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. This week it is my pleasure to welcome Vicky Ward, New York Times bestselling author, acclaimed journalist, television commentator now turned filmmaker. As an investigative journalist, Vicky conducted one of the few interviews ever given by Jeffrey Epstein, disgraced financier and convicted sex offender who died under shady circumstances while being held in custody in 2019. Back in 2002, Vicky became aware of the dark secrets lurking behind Epstein's persona, but was thwarted in her attempts to raise the alarm. She has now turned her sights on Epstein's former confidante, Ghislaine Maxwell, the British socialite currently on trial for allegedly helping Epstein prey on young girls. Vicky's investigative work has been turned into a hit podcast series, and now a three part docu-series streaming on Discovery Plus. Vicky joins Factual America to fill us in on the latest events surrounding Ghislaine Maxwell's trial and continuing efforts to get to the bottom of this murky tale. Vicky, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?
Vicky Ward 03:09
Very good. Thank you so much for having me.
Matthew 03:12
No, it's our pleasure. Thank you for coming on to the podcast. The film is - our listeners or viewers would have noticed already - is Chasing Ghislaine. It's three part special. Is now streaming on Discovery Plus, and there's a podcast by the same name available on Audible and other podcast platforms. So, congratulations. The film, you released, I think, in November, I guess. So, I know it's been a - probably been a very challenging few year or two to get this film made and out. So, congratulations on that. Before we really get started maybe for our listeners, I mean, it's all in the news, but maybe you can give us an idea just to get us up to speed what is Chasing Ghislaine all about?
Vicky Ward 04:07
So, Chasing Ghislaine is really my effort to go out and re-report an investigative story that I started almost 20 years ago, when I was tasked by Vanity Fair magazine, for whom I was working at the time, to go and find out how this very mysterious reclusive guy in New York called Jeffrey Epstein made his money. And that turned into a very unpleasant experience for me. He rather infamously threatened me, threatened my unborn children. I had a frightening pregnancy and a frightening birth as a result. And although the resulting piece did show that he certainly wasn't who he claimed to be business-wise, it didn't answer the question of really how he had made so much money. And also, what had happened, that I wasn't expecting, was that two sisters, Maria and Annie Farmer, had sort of come my way, and had told me - on the record - stories, they claimed, of sexual abuse by Jeffrey Epstein. That did put Ghislaine in the room. And in one case, giving a topless massage. And I say, Ghislaine, I'm talking about Ghislaine Maxwell.
Matthew 05:53
Yes.
Vicky Ward 05:54
I had known Ghislaine Maxwell before I embarked on this investigation of Jeffrey Epstein, nearly 20 years ago. I had known her casually. Like, she grew up in England. She lived in New York, she's part of the whole kind of ex-pat scene in New York. So, I would bump into her from time-to-time I didn't know her well, I wasn't a close friend. I did have friends who were close friends of hers. But I was surprised during my reporting on Jeffrey Epstein to learn that she and this man were clearly very connected. It still, by the end of my reporting, was not clear exactly what the nature of that relationship really was. And so many sources were a bit confused as to what it really was. So, fast forward 20 years - and I should sort of add that back 20, nearly 20 years ago, the Farmers' allegations about the sexual abuse and Jeffrey Epstein did not make it in to the final version of my article. I did manage finally in 2015, in another publication, to write about their allegations. But obviously, in the last few years, Jeffrey Epstein has become a globally known name. And he is known for his horrific sex crimes, the mystery of how he made such enormous wealth so that he had, you know, a Boeing, among his planes, an island, the biggest mansion, I believe, in New York, a home in Paris, a ranch in New Mexico is still not clear. And what has emerged since his death, a growing list of really powerful men, we had no idea until he had been re-arrested and then died in very strange circumstances, before he could face his trial, in jail. And it suddenly emerged that along with the people we already knew about, who obviously include Prince Andrew, who include Donald Trump, who include Bill Clinton, you know, other people, other very well known financiers, Bill Gates's name emerged as somebody who was hanging out with this man. The financier, Leon Black, one of America's most successful businessmen has had to sort of step down from his company, because it turned out he paid Jeffrey Epstein fees of around $160 million. And so, there are still all these questions about who this guy really was, and what on earth drew so many important people from around the world. Men, not just women, men, to him. And when Ghislaine Maxwell was arrested, I realized that number one, I'd been sitting on all these tapes, transcripts of recorded conversations that I had with Jeffrey Epstein. They had never seen the light of day and that very few people had ever heard his voice. And that what these transcripts - and there were 450 pages of them - really did was show how he was so incredibly manipulative, because despite all the ink and there's been so much of it, so much press around him, he himself, and his character, and who he was, and how he weaseled his way in everywhere, it hasn't been explained. And so, when Ghislaine Maxwell was arrested, I believed that if I went out and re-reported this story that had begun nearly 20 years ago, using her and trying to really unravel what the actual nature of her relationship to him really was, that maybe, finally, we could get some answers. So, she was - by Chasing Ghislaine, it was about chasing her, and remember that the government, the US government, seemed to be chasing her for nearly a year after Epstein's death, before she was found. I mean, certainly, the media was obsessed with, you know, wondering where she was. And so, it was the idea of this was to use her and their relationship as a way to re-report and also use the transcripts of what he had said to me, and looking at the breadcrumbs that he had left for me, to see if I could answer questions that 20 years ago I just couldn't.
Matthew 11:02
Yeah. And had you listened to those tapes after that initial very difficult six months, I think it was, that you had with him back in 2002, which we won't make you relive, except it is put in the documentary, so...
Vicky Ward 11:20
Yeah, so it is.
Matthew 11:22
But - go ahead.
Vicky Ward 11:24
Well, to be clear, the tapes, you're not going to believe this, I either threw away or I've lost with various moves, because - and people say, 'Oh my God, how could you have done that? You have to remember in 2002, for many years, Jeffrey Epstein was not somebody who the media cared about, even when he was arrested and went to jail the first time in Florida. It was a very local Florida story. He wasn't somebody who was written about. All that changed once that picture of Prince Andrew with his arm around the waist of Virginia Roberts Giuffre. Prince Andrew's celebrity is ultimately, actually, what turned Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell into household names. But what I do have is the - back then we used little micro-cassettes, you know, old fashioned tape recorders - and so, a professional transcription service was sent all the micro-cassettes. So, they then emailed me and Vanity Fair back their transcriptions of the cassettes. So, that is what I have. And the answer to your question is, no, it was such a deeply, deeply, deeply unpleasant experience. I've never had such a horrific experience reporting, before or since that - and because it became so personal for me and because it became so wound up in the birth of my children who were born very prematurely and I had to place guards on them, and the rest of it. I had not wanted to address the topic of Jeffrey Epstein again. Over the years, people had asked me did I want to write a book? The answer was no. But that was obviously before the scope of his sex crimes, which I had absolutely no idea of in 2002. I knew about the Farmers, I had no idea about recruiting trips, hunt school girls, I mean, none of that was obvious. So, I did think that after that had emerged, and then he'd gone to jail and denied that, and by the time Ghislaine was arrested, I did think it is time to go back and look. And I realized with the benefit of distance, and, you know, knowing in a way that, you know, he's dead, and that gonna be hard for him to deliver on all his threats, while dead, that I realized that he had, you know, he was a narcissist and like all narcissists, he couldn't help boasting. And so, whilst he had told me a lot of lies, he had also told me some truths, and I was also able to see how cleverly he had been able to zero in on my one sort of Achilles heel at the time. My Achilles heel, my vulnerability, was the fact that I had a high risk pregnancy with twins, and when you're pregnant like that, you don't want somebody asking you about your hospitals and your doctors and telling you they're going to have a witch doctor place a curse on your unborn children and telling you they can get your husband fired from his job and that they've got a dossier, you know, you're particularly susceptible. And I realized, all these years later, that it was incredibly clever of him to have realized that the one thing that would really put me on my back foot was to keep talking about my pregnancy or threaten my home security, you know, at the time. And I then realized, well, if he was able to do that with me, and I was, you know, a 33 year old journalist, but I'm a pretty tough reporter, then, you know, I could see how certainly young girls wouldn't have a prayer against him. But I could also see and I began to talk, you know, I began to report among some of the men who obviously requested anonymity who had, who are well known, who had been in his circle, and they said the same thing back to me, which is, you know, I was, like, how could you not have seen him for what he was, and they said, he had this extraordinary skill of just being able to size people up, everybody up, very, very fast, and immediately zero in on whatever it was that he could clearly see what that person needed, what that person was afraid of. And he did that, to his advantage very brilliantly. He was an absolutely masterful manipulator. And I think that that's what these transcripts really show. I mean, at the risk of sounding hyperbolic, it is a bit like Hannibal Lecter and Clarice Starling. I mean, you know, when he talked to me about vaginal canal, nobody's talked to me about my vaginal canal. You know, I mean, it's just - what it does, and I was reminded of this in court yesterday, when Annie Farmer was explaining how she had the weekend from Hell, basically, with Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, when she was 16, and the defense said, Well, come on. Nothing that bad happened. And she said, actually, what they were doing, was making me question my boundaries. What was normal? What was not normal? And that's exactly what I felt when he talked to me about my body. It was so completely inappropriate.
Matthew 17:38
I mean, you - wow, I mean, where do we begin? I mean, so much there. And you obviously said, I mean, unwittingly, you, all those, you know, 20 years ago almost, had these incredible insights, not knowing at the time what it was like to be having to interact with Jeffrey Epstein and the tactics he would take. I mean, you mentioned, you know, seeing in court, for our listeners we're recording this on a weekend, we don't usually record a weekend, because Vicky's in court every week, every weekday, because Ghislaine Maxwell, obviously, her trial's happening right now. I mean, that must have been you mentioned Annie Farmer because I know it's been a very difficult one for you. It comes up in the documentary as well, because you went to bat for them. It's, I think you've very even handily presented, actually, in the doc because, obviously, Vanity Fair and editors have made statements in the past and you play those statements, but obviously, Vanity Fair squashed the, you know, quashed that attempt to be in the story, but now she's in the - I mean, what's that been like for you? Because now you're reliving this yet again. And now - I mean, for you and also in terms of what you're seeing in the trial that's ongoing? Maybe we can start with that moment with Annie Farmer, yesterday.
Vicky Ward 19:12
Yeah, well, so, you know, my relationship with Annie Farmer has always been a much more straightforward relationship than with her sister, Maria. And Annie Farmer has, you know, she, you know, I've said this in what I've written, she presented in court yesterday exactly as I thought she would. Even 20 years ago, when she was a student at Penn University. She was clearly very bright, very cool, mature beyond her years. And when she told me her story all those years ago, she was able to tell it in a very calm, detailed way. I didn't know until yesterday that one of the reasons her details had remained so consistent over the years, and she is remarkable in that her narrative of what she told me, you know, has stayed exactly the same over 20 years, so, you know, I mean, given that Ghislaine Maxwell's defense team has said their main tactic has been to really point out the inconsistencies in the other three accusers' testimonies between what they've said in the past, or haven't said, and what they're saying now, Annie Farmer, it's really difficult to question her credibility, because she just, she has just said, told the same horrible story again, and again, and again. And she has never changed any of the facts. And I was, you know, I was, I was really proud of her, actually. I mean, you know, I'm a journalist, I'm there to report. But in the afternoon, she got such a drilling, you know, Laura Menninger, Ghislaine Maxwell's defense lawyer is a very, very, very good lawyer. And she really was aggressive about questioning, whether, in fact, you know, I mean, she was trying to sort of say that Annie Farmer had exaggerated what happened between her and Jeffrey Epstein, and certainly exaggerated what happened between her and Ghislaine Maxwell, and I watched Annie Farmer's lawyer who was sitting behind me put her hand up, sort of to the bottom of her throat, you know, clearly getting deeply concerned as to whether her client was going to burst into tears and break down on the stand. And you could have heard a pin drop in that courtroom it was so tense, and Annie Farmer not only didn't break down, she managed, somehow, to smile at Laura Menninger, it was an extraordinary, you know, she wasn't going to be broken. It was extraordinarily powerful.
Matthew 22:43
Yeah. I mean, as a journalist, and sitting in there, and then you see how the trial's being reported, but, I mean, what has struck you so - besides a moment like this - what has struck you most about the trial? And what is not getting reported that maybe we should know about, in terms of what's transpired so far in this trial?
Vicky Ward 23:05
Well, first of all, as you mentioned earlier, the prosecution has rested at least a week earlier than they had suggested, and they have unquestionably been, they have made some mistakes, and at least three times now. The judge, not in front of the jury, but in front of us, journalists, and the public, has told the prosecutors who are very young and very inexperienced, they're led by James Comey, former head of the FBI, his daughter, Maureen, who is, I have to say, increasingly, she is increasingly impressive, but this judge has told them three times by my count, that they should have presented evidence and witnesses differently from the way they have done. And there was a mistake made earlier in the week that the first accuser, Jane, who is the witness, who is the only accuser who really could have anything to do with the two counts of trafficking because she's the only person who made any suggestion was on a plane underage. With both Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. Her brother was supposed to be called by the government. But it emerged, earlier on in the week, that the brother and his sister had had a conversation, which they're not supposed to do about her testimony, and furthermore, that in that conversation, Jane, the pseudonym for accuser number one had described Laura Menninger, the defense lawyer who cross-examined her, as a quote unquote, word that rhymes with front. The judge told the prosecution, 'Well, you know, you're gonna let me know if you want to call this witness or not. But obviously, I will allow the brother to be cross-examined, and he will have to be asked about what he said in this conversation. And this is not going to not going to play well'. And in the end, the government decided not to call him. I think, you know, what has happened is you've got four accusers. And the two of them, the judge has already instructed the jury, cannot be considered that anything illegal's happened. So, that's two out of - the jury has been told you can consider them for the relevance of their testimony, but not that anything illegal happened here. This is because - Annie Farmer is one of them - because in New Mexico, where she says something happened, 16 is the age of consent. The British accuser was 17, which is the age of consent in London, which is where she - so those two women, already the judge's instructed the jury that you can listen to what they say, but remember, nothing that they speak of, is illegal. So, you're down to two other accusers. And it's basically their word against what the defense says. And the defense has done a very strong job of highlighting inconsistencies in their story, you know, and the most notable one, using, for example, in Jane, accuser number one story, the fact that she actually denied in recent statements to the FBI. So, this is not going back 18 years ago, 20 years ago, this is going back in the last two years, she told the FBI that Ghislaine Maxwell had never touched her, that Ghislaine Maxwell had never been in the room with her. So, these are recent statements. And what the government is - their case, they're saying is about memory, manipulation. And they're suggesting that these women's memories have been manipulated, because of money, manipulated by lawyers, civil lawyers, who became very interested in getting a chunk of Jeffrey Epstein's money after he died. And the problem, as I see it in court, if you were a juror, is that we keep hearing about Jeffrey Epstein. And he's dead.
Matthew 27:44
Right.
Vicky Ward 27:44
So, and then there are other names along with Ghislaine Maxwell, of two women in particular, keep being talked about by witnesses again, and again, and again. And their names are Virginia Roberts, who's famous in Britain because she's the one who's currently accusing Prince Andrew of sexual abuse in the federal court in America. And Sarah Kellen, who was an assistant of Jeffrey Epstein's, and so, the jury keeps hearing about allegations that these two women phoned them up and brought them over to Jeffrey Epstein's house. But these two women have not been called by the prosecution who must be wondering, why. And as a journalist who knows a great deal about this story, at this point, it strikes me that what has been shown to the jury is a very narrow picture of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, which remains - and the nature of their relationship, now, I've heard all the government testimony, is still as confusing to me, as it was 20 years ago. And you're left with a lot of questions about, well, if Jeffrey - it's very clear from the picture that's being painted that Jeffrey Epstein was a sick, horrible, abusive man who manipulated children. And that he also - that there's been mentioned just, you know, passing mention of the fact that yet, and yet, he was flying on his planes along with children, Bill Clinton, Donald Trump, the musician Itzhak Perlman, businessmen, Henry, you know a guy called Henry Jurek. He was mentioned that he had a photograph of Jeffrey Epstein with the Pope. He had a photograph of himself with Fidel Castro. And if you were a juror you must be a bit confused. I mean, it's confusing. And where, and as to the question of where Ghislaine Maxwell fits in to this system, where she fits in with Virginia Roberts and Sarah Kellen, the two women who keep being mentioned, and yet who no one's heard from is confusing. And so, I think that is why the reaction so far is, you know, from the media, remember, we're not the jurors. But the media are puzzled as to why the government didn't call Virginia Roberts and Sarah Kellen and why they didn't present a stronger case. That, you know, we will see, you know, obviously, we are not the jury.
Matthew 31:12
Yeah. More on that in a second. I think this takes us to a good point to offer our listeners a break, so we'll be right back with Vicky Ward. The film is Chasing Ghislaine. Three part special is streaming now on Discovery Plus, and you can also listen to her podcast of the same name on Audible and other platforms.
Factual America midroll 31:35
If you enjoy Factual America, check out the moviemaker podcast. That's all one word, moviemaker, where our friends at moviemaker.com interview everyone from filmmakers just breaking in to A-Listers like David Fincher and Edgar Wright, about their movie making secrets and behind the scenes tricks of the trade. They go deep, and let the guests speak uninterrupted, to get you the most film insight. Now back to Factual America.
Matthew 32:03
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with acclaimed journalist turned filmmaker Vicky Ward. Chasing Ghislaine is the film. Three part specials now streaming on Discovery Plus, and do give her podcast a listen. It's the same name. It's available on Audible and other platforms. So, we were just talking about the trial. This puzzling, let's be honest, weak case that the prosecution has seemingly presented. Any, I mean, I think you've kind of touched on this, but any idea of why they've done that? I mean, is it just all you can do is scratch your head?
Vicky Ward 32:44
Well, look, according to my reporting, yeah, I've spoken to various legal experts around this, various lawyers who have been involved with this case. According to, you know, these sources, obviously, it is very problematic for the government that Jeffrey Epstein, the sort of great elephant in the room...
Matthew 33:23
Right.
Vicky Ward 33:23
... never got tried. And further, because Virginia Roberts and Jeffrey Epstein, and Virginia Roberts and Ghislaine Maxwell, have previously been involved in civil litigation, there is a view among other former assistant US attorneys who I've spoken to that the government wouldn't want to bring Virginia Roberts because it would be a big red herring, a big distraction. The defense team, Ghislaine Maxwell's defense team, are the same lawyers who were involved in the civil actions. So, they know a very great deal about Virginia Roberts and the risk if you bring her, you know, according to David Weinstein, who's a former Assistant US Attorney in Miami, is that the risk you run, is that a trial that is meant to be about something quite simple, you know, did Ghislaine Maxwell help Jeffrey Epstein abuse and traffic minors could turn into a sideshow about a battle that has been quite public between two women who we already know, had been battling this out. And it could end up not being helpful. So, you know, there are, you know, I mean, nobody is suggesting that this team of prosecutors are...
Matthew 35:20
Incompetent, or anything.
Vicky Ward 35:21
... you know, but, you know, I think that there are, again, among the sort of lawyers, a lot of the lawyers who I've spoken to, who have either worked at previously at the Southern District, or been Assistant US attorneys elsewhere that there is unquestionably when Jeffrey Epstein didn't face trial, because of death in very bizarre circumstances. The government, you know - public sentiment in the United States was furious. Period. So, you know, I think the government had to do something. But the fact that the main proponent of these crimes really is dead, I think has, you know, it remains to be seen, it has complicated things for the prosecution.
Matthew 36:26
Yeah, I mean, what's interesting - a couple things, more than a couple of things, but especially, I mean, your film presages this, actually, I mean, you do talk in Episode Three towards the end about, I think a lot of people are kind of, don't think there's any way, Ghislaine's gonna get, you know, get found innocent, I know that, you know, we don't know what the jury's gonna decide. But you talked about how her brothers are fighting hard, it's kind of a Maxwell trait to do everything they can to make sure that she can - at least has a fighting chance, I guess is the way they would look at it. So, there's that element. You've, you know, this, maybe this is not that surprising. But then, you pose this simple question. And may I ask you, I mean, what is - if you were a juror, I mean, knowing what you know, forget about what the prosecution's presented or not presented, knowing what you know, I mean, do you think the answer is yes, she is guilty of these things?
Vicky Ward 37:30
What having seen...?
Matthew 37:31
... having been...
Vicky Ward 37:32
... So, I will push back on that only because the judge has instructed the jurors very clearly to now wait for the defense to present its case and keep it in mind...
Matthew 37:43
Okay. Okay. Fair enough.
Vicky Ward 37:43
... and I am curious, you know, the defense is now suggesting that they've got people who have phoned and want to testify, and they've got people who've phoned and want to testify under a pseudonym. So, that's pretty... if the judge lets that happen, and that happens, that's going to be fairly interesting. My, you know, look, I, what's become clearer and clearer, as the evidence has been presented, is that he was a very sick, but very clever, guy, and, you know, one of the stories that, you know, I'm sure the defense is going to lean into over time is that it does seem obvious that at some point, Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein were romantically involved, which, to be honest, I wasn't sure of during my previous reporting, it actually wasn't that clear. It was clear that she idolized him. It wasn't clear...
Matthew 38:58
Yeah, he was at pains to make it sound like it definitely wasn't.
Vicky Ward 39:01
Yeah, no, wasn't.
Matthew 39:02
Yeah.
Vicky Ward 39:02
He had told me she didn't work for him. Well, we learned in the last two weeks that certainly from the point of view of his two pilots, she worked extremely hard for him. She ran all his properties. She decorated the planes, I mean, but at the same time, as it seemed, they were supposed to be sharing a bedroom in Palm Beach, at least; they didn't live together in New York, he would bring other women and when they came to stay, he would make sure that the butler, the house manager, had removed all photographs of Ghislaine Maxwell. And so, you know, I still am bewildered as to what, you know, why she wanted to hang around this man. At the same time, you're left wondering, well, why did Bill Clinton want to hang around him? What was it? So, you know, I think, and I'm sure what the defense is going to do in their case is say that, because they've already sort of hinted at this in opening argument that there was a lot about him that even she didn't know, that he hid quite deliberately from her other girlfriends who were of age, included. So, you know, and the other thing that, you know, I have found, you know, I was hoping that the trial would shed light on the money, on how, where he made his money, what, you know, what he was doing, when he wasn't having massages. And, you know, clearly, that's not going to come up. And, you know, even when flight docs were presented, he seemed to fly from each of his homes all the time, you know, you couldn't look at a trip and go, 'Oh, yes. So, you know, he was doing business in Africa.' as I, you know, and I talk about that in my documentary series. You know, he remains a mystery.
Matthew 41:34
Well, I think - So, a few things on that. I mean, I think you said earlier, I mean, in that whole horrible weekend that Annie Farmer had to spend in, I think, New Mexico, I mean, it was all about what he was doing was, I mean, pushing boundaries seems too light of a way of describing it, but it was finding people's weak points and making people do things they wouldn't normally do, or ever think about doing. I guess, we can also say it's like sort of a form of torture, and certainly of abuse. But, so, that's obviously whatever did or didn't exactly happen with Ghislaine Maxwell, he managed that with her, didn't he. And so, obviously, she was, you know, something in her and I think the film is very good about going into her background, the history of the Maxwells and what might or might not have been happening in terms of her, like you said, why the hell was she hanging out with this guy? But then it also gets to this point where, I mean, the thing I think, that comes out in your film, in the three episodes, which documents so much about, like you said, especially getting into the sort of money side is that there's still this what feels to me is that there's so much of the story, we don't know. And what is really the story is, that is the story, is trying to get to the roots of what is actually the reality here.
Vicky Ward 43:11
Yeah, so, look. This is a story of mystery being compounded on mystery. Beginning, if you like, with the mystery of Robert Maxwell's death in 1991. People debate still, as to how and why he was really found dead, you know, floating in the water, you know, having fallen from his yacht, the Lady Ghislaine, and there have, you know, as I report in the documentary series, there are people who claim that Robert Maxwell knew Jeffrey Epstein, that Jeffrey Epstein himself had bragged to people that he was helping Robert Maxwell, quote, unquote, restructure his debt at the end of his life. And of course, the reason that's significant is, you know, as we know, after Robert Maxwell died, it was discovered that he had stolen hundreds of millions of pounds from the pension funds of his employees and then Ghislaine's brothers, Kevin and Ian Maxwell, were put on trial charged with helping their father, in the Old Bailey, and they were acquitted. Nonetheless, the Maxwell family, Maxwell's children, were very definitely supposed to appear as if they had no money after all of this, because everything that they had ought to have gone to try and make these the victims of Maxwell's financial crimes. But, of course, there is in the documentary series, the suggestion that maybe Robert Maxwell trusted Jeffrey Epstein with some of the hidden Maxwell money. Maybe Jeffrey Epstein was already somebody who was very good at hiding Europeans' money for them. Maybe Jeffrey Epstein, like Robert Maxwell, was involved in working for the Israelis in some sort of - I wouldn't call it espionage, but let's call it an influence campaign. There are all these - and although, you know, I try very hard to say, 'Well other people say, this isn't true'. The fact that there's this big black hole, there is still this question mark as to when Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein actually met. There are people who say that her father introduced them and wanted them to get married. There are other people who say no, it was definitely 1991. But nobody, not even her family, can say for sure who introduced them. Not even her closest friends. I mean, most people, when you're a close friend or a sibling, and you're, you know, you know how two people who spend at least a decade of their life, in some very close relationship, whatever it was, you tend to know how they met. So, the fact we don't even know the answer to that question, leaves room for a lot of people to claim a lot of things. The fact that Jeffrey Epstein was a liar doesn't help, either. So, and we're - now because he's dead we're hearing these things secondhand. So, I try to explain to the viewers, these three people say this; now, remember that they could be problematic sources, and sort of just - and try and let the viewer make up their own mind. But it is an extraordinary puzzle. It's like a jigsaw puzzle that just is sort of impossible to finish. And I think the other thing that you were sort of about to point out that is really worth remembering is that the parallels between Robert Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein are eerily similar. Now, as far as we know, there's no suggestion at all that Robert Maxwell was interested in abusing underage girls. But he was an abusive, cruel man, who was certainly cruel to his wife. And certainly, cheated on her a very great deal; was cruel to his children. And, you know, he was a tyrant. And yet, rather like Jeffrey Epstein, if he wanted to charm you he was someone of great charisma. And just like Jeffrey Epstein, he was somebody who moved very easily, and in fact, far more publicly than Jeffrey Epstein did, between the heads of various governments and regimes around the world. And just like Jeffrey Epstein, he was hugely interested in science. His publishing company, the Pergamon Press, published scientific journals, which was one of the reasons - it was very clever - it's one of the reasons that so many political leaders were interested in meeting with him and knowing what his publishing company was publishing because obviously, you know, knowing what various countries' cutting edge scientists are doing in terms of development, whether it's arms or whatever, is hugely important. And you'll notice that Jeffrey Epstein cultivated scientists and academics. Well, that was something that Robert Maxwell did.
Matthew 49:07
I mean, I must say, I'm not normally a, your conspiracy theorist type, and you're very upfront, too, in the film, there's a few on there that you say 'prone to conspiracies' but as your arms dealer guy, I forget his name, but what it is, is this film is like all good docs. I mean, it's about so much more than just, I mean, it is about Epstein and Maxwell, and I mean, Maxwell meaning both Ghislaine and Robert, but these powerful network and forces that are at work; finance, political power, arms dealing, as I mentioned, Mossad is discussed, you know, the Israeli intelligence service, whatever they are. I mean, this is a far murkier tale than we were ever led to believe, I think, even just a few years ago, and do you think we'll ever get to the root of it?
Vicky Ward 50:11
Well, look...
Matthew 50:11
... are you trying to? I mean, you're gonna continue?
Vicky Ward 50:13
Yes. I'm not going to let this go. The good news is that there is other litigation that is headed for the courtroom; as of now, headed for trial that does look more closely at the men around Epstein, that does look more closely at the money trail. And so, I think, you know, the case, you know, David Boies, very famous trial lawyer here in America, and Alan Dershowitz, also a very famous lawyer, are locked in a legal battle against each other to try to get each other disbarred. And that is headed to trial as of now, I believe, next year. And I know that Dershowitz is certainly hoping to get Leslie Wexner who was one of Epstein's biggest benefactors...
Matthew 50:43
Right.
Vicky Ward 50:45
... on the stand. So, that is a case where I think we could potentially learn a lot more. There is also the US Virgin Islands case, who are suing the Epstein estate is really hotting up, according to my sources. And, you know, Leon Black, the financier I mentioned earlier, certainly is being subpoenaed for that. So, I think that that case is all about the money. And, you know, two years ago, people rather were dismissive of, you know, the US Virgin Islands, but my sources say, to watch that one very closely. And then, of course, you have Virginia Roberts suing, not just Dershowitz, who's I think countersuing her, but you also have Virginia Roberts and Prince Andrew, headed to court in January. So, there are - and, you know, when Epstein was indicted it was very clear the indictment talked about a conspiracy. And it seems very clear from Ghislaine Maxwell's trial, that she was not the only person, she was not the only tool in his toolbox. And so, the question is, are there going to be more arrests? Other people who helped in his sex trafficking enterprise, we shall see. It's not impossible.
Matthew 52:58
I think we'll, with your guidance there, we will certainly be paying attention to those cases and trials, it would be good to get to the root of this. I mean, as I didn't even mention, but it is in your doc; I mean, even, potentially, the FBI and other US agencies are implicated as well, because it's acknowledged that it wasn't just Assad and others that Epstein had dealings. I don't like that term. He was a hyper...
Vicky Ward 53:31
... hyper fixer.
Matthew 53:32
... hyper fixer, yeah.
Vicky Ward 53:33
Someone who can move between cultures and countries in a way that most people can't, particularly in the Middle East. Yeah, I mean, and most people like that remain very firmly in the shadows, but they do exist; they're very valuable in the intelligence community.
Matthew 53:53
Well, and I think this is very insightful about that whole world, to be honest. I mean, in terms of doing this, turning investigative journalism into the podcast now the docu-series, I mean, what's been the main challenge? I mean, Jeffrey Epstein is now dead. But have you felt - are you worried? Because you are asking a lot of questions and trying to shine a light under some of these murky areas. Does that cause you your own personal concern?
Vicky Ward 54:25
No, actually one of the real great joys for me of learning how to both podcast and then make a, you know, doc series for the first time, having been a lone wolf for most of my career, you know, I've written my book, you know, I tend to do a lot of this reporting by myself, and the great joy, as you will know, of when you are podcasting you need somebody to help with - you know, you're not, you can't work the equipment, you have to upload your interview immediately to a shared file, the same with the documentary series you're filming. So, even if I'm on Zoom by myself, the film is being recorded, and it's immediately accessible to somebody else. So, you know, information shared, is a huge security blanket. What I have found much more troubling in the past, is if I am reporting, you know, particularly with my books, it's a long time for just me to be sitting on information that is just on my computer. That's when I feel sometimes vulnerable. Because I haven't yet got to the point where I've written the book, so I haven't shared it with editors or whatever, but no, once I feel that I've shared the information, then why would it be in anyone's interest to target me? I mean, there was one moment during the making of the podcast where my colleagues at Audible said, we're wondering if your computer's been hacked, and if we should protect it, and then they were like, but, you know, we figured it was probably, you know, whichever government is interested, has been reading this for months by now, anyway; we just carried on! [Laughter]
Matthew 56:31
That's interesting! I mean, I think even one of your interviews says the exact same thing that the worst thing is to be the only one that has some of this knowledge, because that makes you the target, doesn't it.
Vicky Ward 56:41
Exactly. Exactly.
Matthew 56:41
Yeah. So, is this something you're gonna continue on doing, you think, turning your journalism and research into podcasts, and then maybe then...
Vicky Ward 56:52
Yes. Yes. Yes. We are. We are. We are. We're already into project number two. So, I think it's, yeah, now I've just started my Substack column, which is a new way for me to write because it's a newsletter that is shorter than I normally do. But the idea is that all of these things can work in synergy with each other. And what I have found very interesting is to learn that, you know, writing for the ear is different from writing for a reader. There was a point in the making of the Audible podcast, halfway through, where we got a new producer who told me to rip the whole thing up and start again, and I was quite unamused. But I did. By the end, I realized that she was entirely right. And again, telling, you know, telling a story, for a documentary is much different. You know, you have to think so much differently about the impact of the visuals. But I think the great thing about the era that we live in, you know, the sort of new world of the media, is that we, you know, it's very liberating for journalists like me, and for you. It's very liberating, because I think we're freed up to, perhaps, give the public more access to what we were doing, rather than just be constrained by one story and one narrative.
Matthew 58:33
That's a very good point. Also, I guess you're going straight out to the public. I mean, we've, I'm sure you've worked with great editors, I have, too, but sometimes it's nice to be able to get straight to the public with the story rather than having to push it through a certain editorial stance or whatever it may be. So, no, it's a very liberating and, yeah, certainly, we see it with documentary filmmaking, too, things have become much more accessible. So, people who years ago, you know, different backgrounds and everything would never had a hope of getting a film out there, are now getting them out there, and it's great because we're getting these stories from all these different perspectives, we didn't have before, so. It's hard to believe it's gone by very, very quickly, but I think we're coming to the end of our time. I just was gonna - so, you've said you got this next project going on? Did you want to say anything more about that? Can you say any more about what this new project is gonna be?
Vicky Ward 59:35
Well, I think it's publicly known, yes; I've been down in South Carolina a bit. There's a fascinating sort of Gothic murder mystery down there. A very prominent family. You pronounce it 'Mur-dock'. But you spell it, 'Mur-door': M. U. R. D. A. U. G. H. Family of lawyers in the low country of South Carolina, who for generations have wielded enormous power, because the patriarchs have been what they call the solicitor which is like being the attorney general. So, very much in charge of the courts and very much in charge of the legal system down there. And they also at the same time have had their own law firm that has made a fortune from personal injuries. Suffice it to say that a whole series of tragic events in the last six or seven years involving an unsolved - well, a death of a teenager by a roadside that's been re-opened, tragic death in a boat, late at night, two or three years ago, and now a brutal murder on the hunting estate of this family: a mother and her son in her 20s that is unsolved, have all culminated in a great sort of Gothic mystery, not just about the murders, but about the nature of power in the South. Which, you know, has long been fodder for better writers than me, such as William Faulkner. But this is one of those stories that you - it ought to be a novel, but it's actually true. So, that is what is coming next.
Matthew 1:01:48
And do you have an idea roughly about when that might be coming out?
Vicky Ward 1:01:52
No, not yet.
Matthew 1:01:53
Not yet. No...
Vicky Ward 1:01:54
We have a long way to go.
Matthew 1:01:56
Okay, well, my father's originally from South Carolina, so I'm very, he'll be very keen to - it's a rich - there's plenty of stories you could be telling about that state. I know that, for sure. Well, before we let you go, I guess one last thing, going back to the film we've been discussing, and your work with Chasing Ghislaine. What do you want the legacy of this to be? Of the docu-series and the podcasts that you've done?
Vicky Ward 1:02:28
Well, you know, I wish that, you know, I want to keep going, and I want to solve the jigsaw puzzle. But I do think that the, you know, again, just like the other story I was telling you about in South Carolina, what this is about is power. And it's power and corruption. And the extraordinary abuse of power that has gone on, sort of from within the elite. Really, what I want to do, and I'm not finished yet, I don't think this trial is going to do it, is explode that, because there are, you know this trial is all about the women. But Jeffrey Epstein, you know, and as I said to you, I think I said Ghislaine was a useful tool. As for, clearly, other women, whose names' been brought up, but the actual tool box was created by men; men who paid Jeffrey Epstein for whatever reason, and who welcomed him, or they were welcomed into his homes. And that is the root of the problem. And what I want the legacy to be is that root needs to be pulled up, and seen for what it is, and never put back into the ground again.
Matthew 1:03:56
And I feel like we're just at the beginning of this story.
Vicky Ward 1:03:59
Right.
Matthew 1:04:01
Well, thank you so much, Vicky. We really, really appreciate you spending some of your Saturday with us here at Factual America. I thank you, again. Film's Chasing Ghislaine, the three part special streaming now on Discovery Plus, and do give her podcast a listen, it's got the same name. And that's available on Audible and other platforms. So, thank you again.
Vicky Ward 1:04:24
Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 1:04:28
In 1991, it didn't seem that Ghislaine fit the type that Jeffrey favored. She is the exact opposite of the kind of woman that Jeffrey typically liked in that she didn't need to be molded by him at all. She was far more worldly. She had a much more extensive Rolodex than he did.
Matthew 1:04:57
I'd like to give a shout out to Sam and Joe Graves at Innersound Audio in Escrick, England in deepest, darkest Yorkshire. A big thanks to Nevena Paunovic, podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show. And finally, a big thanks to our listeners. As always, we love to hear from you. So, please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas. You can reach out to us on YouTube, social media, or directly by going to our website, www.factualamerica.com and clicking on the Get in Touch link. And as always, please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.
Factual America Outro 1:05:38
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