Ghislaine Maxwell: Filthy Rich
Disgraced financier and convicted sex offender, Jeffrey Epstein, was an infamous sexual predator, using his money and influence to hide is secret life preying on young girls. But he did not act alone. Ghislaine Maxwell, the British socialite and daughter of privilege was just as much a monster as Epstein, as revealed by the new Netflix documentary, Ghislaine Maxwell: Filthy Rich.
Join Matthew Sherwood as he talks with Maiken Baird and Lisa Bryant, co-directors and executive producers, about the bravery of the victims who have come forward to testify against Maxwell. They also discuss the challenges of telling this shocking tale and the ability of the powers that be to cover up the biggest scandal since Watergate.
“Where are the names? We know the names. Everyone kind of knows the names. But we can’t publicly say these names because there’s not a picture, there’s no solid proof, and there’s a huge cover-up. We know there’s a huge cover-up. But who is at the head of the cover-up? Well, that’s a bit muddy, because it has been covered up! – Lisa Bryant
Time Stamps
00:00 – Matthew introduces this episode’s guests, Maiken Baird and Lisa Bryant, co-directors of Ghislaine Maxwell: Filthy Rich
03:31 – Maiken explains what Ghislaine Maxwell: Filthy Rich is about
04:58 – The Female Angle: What Lisa hoped to add to the Ghislaine Maxwell-Jeffrey Epstein story
09:18 – Discussing the up and downs of Ghislaine Maxwell’s trial
13:59 – Annie Farmer, a key witness of great strength and bravery
18:06 – Ghislaine Maxwell: Filthy Rich’s relationship with Jeffrey Epstein: Filthy Rich
23:21 – How Maiken got involved in the Ghislaine Maxwell: Filthy Rich project
24:58 – The difficulty of making Ghislaine Maxwell: Filthy Rich
28:35 – The Involvement of Others: Where might the Epstein story go from here
33:08 – Maiken discusses her role as a cast member
34:38 – What next for Maiken and Lisa
36:30 – How Lisa copes with being in the ‘dark place’ of the Epstein-Maxwell story
Resources
Ghislaine Maxwell: Filthy Rich
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Lisa Bryant
Connect with Maiken Baird
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 115: Ghislaine Maxwell: Filthy Rich
Matthew Sherwood 00:02
Welcome to Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. This week, it is my pleasure to welcome Maiken Baird and Lisa Bryant, co-directors and executive producers of the new Netflix documentary, Ghislaine Maxwell: Filthy Rich. Here's the trailer.
Speaker 1 00:19
You're taught that predators are old men in alleys. You're not told that a friend, a socialite, a woman, can be a predator, too.
Speaker 2 00:30
When Epstein was first arrested, it's hard to know why Maxwell was not arrested at the same time.
Speaker 3 00:36
I met Maxwell and Epstein when I was just 16 years old through my sister Maria Farmer. We were both abused. And I'm going to be testifying in her trial.
Speaker 4 00:43
Without Ghislaine's help, Jeffrey Epstein could never have abused more than 500 victims.
Speaker 5 00:49
I hope that Maxwell is held accountable for what she's done.
Speaker 6 00:55
She basically played a role of a Madam.
Speaker 7 00:58
Class can cloud reality, and Ghislaine capitalized on that.
Speaker 8 01:05
She exhibits characteristics of a narcissist.
Speaker 9 01:08
I believe that she didn't think she was doing anything wrong.
Speaker 10 01:15
She knew she was going to make these high powered men happy.
Speaker 11 01:20
On a scale of sharks, she'd be a great white.
Speaker 12 01:24
It was the most eagerly anticipated criminal trial.
Speaker 13 01:30
She fed a monster. You had to kind of be a monster to do it.
Matthew Sherwood 01:46
That was the trailer for the new Netflix documentary, Ghislaine Maxwell: Filthy Rich. And this is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary, and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. Disgraced financier and convicted sex offender, Jeffrey Epstein, was one of the most infamous sexual predators, using his money and influence to hide his secret life preying on young girls. But he wasn't alone. Aided by Ghislaine Maxwell, the British socialite, and daughter of privilege, who is just as much a monster as Epstein, as revealed in this new Netflix documentary. Join us as we talk with Maiken Baird and Lisa Bryant, co-directors and executive producers, about the bravery of the victims, the challenges of telling this horrible and shocking tale, the ability of the powers that be to cover up the biggest scandal since Watergate, and how Maiken discovered her talents as a voice artist. Stay tuned. Maiken Baird and Lisa Bryant, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you? Lisa, how are you?
Lisa Bryant 02:49
Terrific. Thank you so much for having us. It's an honor to be here.
Matthew Sherwood 02:54
Well, the honor is ours. And Maiken, how are you doing?
Maiken Baird 02:57
Great. Thank you so much. Great to be here.
Matthew Sherwood 03:00
Well, it's great to have you. Just to remind our listeners and viewers, we're talking about the film Ghislaine Maxwell: Filthy Rich. It's a Netflix feature which premiered in November. So, a good welcome again and hearty congratulations on your film, and I checked today, it's doing quite well - at least here in the UK. I think it's still Top Five, so, I know it's proven to be quite popular. May seem obvious given the title, but Maiken, we usually start off here with asking the directors, or the filmmakers, what is their film about? What is Ghislaine Maxwell: Filthy Rich all about? Maybe you can give us a synopsis.
Maiken Baird 03:48
The film Ghislaine Maxwell: Filthy Rich is really about a woman who had a very privileged background from the UK, and who somehow managed to get herself into this world of, you know, very rich and sort of dark, seedy underbelly world in New York. And I was just very curious as to how that happened. How did she get into that from this very elite English kind of world? Why would she, you know, get into that, and that's really what the film is about, is why she got into it. What happened, the trial, and where she is now.
Matthew Sherwood 04:31
And Lisa, I mean, why now? What are you hoping to add to the story? I mean, superficially, I would say, some might think there's not much more to say. I know you've been involved with this story for a while. I've certainly seen your work looking at this subject previous to this. For transparency's sake, we've had another Ghislaine Maxwell doc here on the podcast almost exactly a year ago. So, what was it that you were hoping to add to this story?
Lisa Bryant 05:02
Well, what I think's so unique and so different from Jeffrey Epstein: Filthy Rich is, this is a woman, you know, he didn't act alone, it was very obvious, there were many other people. But, he was the head, but she was the Number Two, you know, almost one-in-one, if you will, because he couldn't operate alone. So, we wanted to explore this female angle that is so crazy, and the psychological aspects of that. And, you know, I think throughout the film, you'll see that, you know, the people we spoke with, the women in particular, feel like Ghislaine was, in many cases, worse than Jeffrey, because this is a woman that they trusted. You know, she groomed them, became their friend, and whatever they needed to have, or to hear from her, she would do that, and she would gain their trust, and, you know, and trap them that way. So, to try to unravel and unpeel that onion of her, and how she could do that, why she could do that, what her motivations were, you know, the psychology behind that, we felt was fascinating, and we did a little differently, I think, than some of the others - we try to do by gaining inside access through one of the testifying victims, Annie Farmer, who so bravely came forward, and we had some privileged access with her and her attorney. So, you know, that was a little bit different. And we just hope to bring out some of those things, and the women feel very strongly, you know, about her, and about her being a woman, and feeling really betrayed by that.
Matthew Sherwood 06:29 I think that's a very important point. And may I add - I don't usually editorialize here - but as someone who's watched a lot of these, I think that is the big difference. And the voice of the victims coming through loud and clear. And, I guess, Maiken, I mean, we, as I said, we've discussed Ghislaine Maxwell previously on this podcast, so, maybe we won't go into all the details of how she got into this world, and what was driving her, but, I mean, I wouldn't say that other films have been sympathetic, but it does seem to me that this is a little more - it seems like we get more evidence in terms of what, you know, the world she was sort of occupying, and actually not so much that, but what she did, in terms of, and hearing it straight from the victims, I think that's - and I guess - was that, I mean that was your - that was the main focus, wasn't it?
Maiken Baird 07:31
Yeah, you never know, once you get into these films, what you're gonna find. You know, she could have been a victim, you know, of Jeffrey Epstein. But this is actually not what happened. It's not what we found in our research, and all of the reporting that we did on this story. We found that she was actually a predator. And a scary one. You know, somebody who - and because it was very not clear that she was a predator, she didn't look like, you know, quote, unquote, look like one, right. So, I mean, this was a - this is a very important story to tell, and to see, is that for people out there that really, like, there are women who are walking around who are predators, but who actually come across as something totally different. So, that I think we really tried to dig into. So, that was important.
Lisa Bryant 08:23
I want to add that I think our trailer did a very good job of taking that point-of-view of, you know, he was a monster, and she was, too, and really kind of unravelling that monster-behind-the-monster, is really what we set out to let people kind of think about, and, you know, we don't want to spoon feed them, you know, the story, but at the same time, you want it to be thought provoking, and we really - that's the conclusion that we came to, and I think the trailer did a good job of, you know, making people want to watch that.
Matthew Sherwood 08:57
Yeah, no, indeed. And I think, I mean, I guess that makes - like you said, Maiken, she could have been a victim, you didn't - you went in with fresh eyes in looking at this, but I guess it makes it even scarier, in that way. I guess the victims have told you that, too, that you've got two monsters working together. And, I mean, Lisa, where we were a year ago, when this podcast looked at this the first time, it was, you know, the trial, we were right in the middle of the trial, and it was front page news, certainly here in the UK, sure in the US, and certainly on all the news channels. And, you know, what we sensed was that the result was - the verdict was looking very much in doubt, in terms of where things were going. Did you - I mean, as you were filming this, did you have a sense of that? And did, you know, I guess justice prevailed in the end, but were you surprised? And if not, why not? How was that whole period?
Lisa Bryant 10:09
It was very interesting. I think it was up-and-down, you know, after, you know, a survivor would testify, you would kind of feel like, Wow, she did really great. But then you'd have this cross examination, and they just went after them. I think the attorneys for Maxwell did a fairly good job at poking holes in stories in certain cases, but at the same time, you know, I kind of - I guess, I felt a little bit more, that she probably was going to be convicted, but there certainly was doubt because of certain, you know, holes here and there. But you had - every day, you know, it was fascinating, Maiken and I were both sitting there, I mean, you could hear a pin drop, because everything is just so, you know, crazy for one thing, and it's really just very interesting how the whole, you know, operation worked, and no matter if it was the pilot testifying about flying them around the world, or, you know, the travel agent who was talking about, you know, who booked the plane tickets, it really was, you know, and then, of course, when the women spoke, it was, you know, jaw dropping testimony. These are 14 year old children talking about, you know, what a grown woman, you know, had allegedly done to them, you know, and many years ago. So, I think when - the longer the jury was out, though, I think the more nervous everybody became, because we had several things. We also had Covid going on, and Covid was rapidly, you know, there was a new strain, and we thought, Oh my gosh, they're gonna have a mistrial, because they're gonna lose all the jurors. And so, so that was kind of a nail biter, too. But it did take a little bit longer than I thought to come to a verdict, whatever that was going to be. So, did you feel the same way, Maiken? It was a little nerve racking.
Maiken Baird 11:53
Yeah, it was; because there could have been a mistrial, you know. Yeah, it was a nail biter. And it was also between Christmas and New Year or something. So, it was just - nobody was there - you know, the sort of - it felt like the newspapers had sent their kind of stringers, you know, it was just really, it was a bleak time, for sure.
Lisa Bryant 12:13
But what I think - and you're talking about the content of the trial - what I think the key points that the jury probably could not get past is the fact that these women who testified are, nobody knew each other, they were from different time periods. And, you know, they didn't talk, they didn't know each other, and the stories at the root of it, were really all the same. They all had to deal with grooming, massage, you know, manipulation, you know, abuse. So, and sometimes abuse by Ghislaine herself. So, at the heart of it all, I think the jury saw that there was, you know, culpability there. And I think, you know, maybe you had a holdout juror who was giving the benefit of the doubt in one case, and, you know, I think that always happens. But I think that's probably what pushed it over the edge is that, you know, look, these people know each other, you can't make this stuff up.
Matthew Sherwood 13:10
Yeah. I mean, I think you also raise a good point that, I mean, all these women are - all who testified in this trial, and then others, are all very brave for coming forward, but one thing that came up, even when we last talked about this here was that, you know, there's the - just the testimony of Annie Farmer, who was, from what we were gathering then, is just - what she said when, or trying to tell people when she was, you know, way back when, when they were trying to get the story out and tell people what was happening to them. It's never changed. Through all these years, it's been extremely consistent. And maybe we, that is, she is obviously you were, you know, you have, you spend a lot of time with her, and maybe, can you say something about Annie Farmer and, you know, your experience working with her on this doc, and what she, you know, basically her bravery, and strength in going through all this, and, you know, maybe, I guess that would be, you know, what would you say about that?
Lisa Bryant 14:21
I don't know; Maiken, do you want to speak to her strength, and I can speak to maybe more on a personal level. I feel like I know her better, because I've known her longer. But if you want to speak to just her bravery and her persistence over the years, I think that's a good thing for you.
Maiken Baird 14:35
Yeah, I mean, it's amazing that they - she came out, and so does her sister, obviously, back then in the early 90s, 30 years ago. And, you know, and they just continued and continued, and they were pursued, and kind of, you know, sort of chased and all kinds of things, and they continued with the same story and then they're, you know, what happened here, but it was that long ago, you know, and just shows you how long it takes, and just the bravery that they've shown. Yeah, it's incredible. It's really incredible.
Lisa Bryant 15:12
And I think Annie, knowing her for now, like, four years, and knowing her sister, besides the fact that they have tried and tried - you know, Annie is what I call, if you would, kind of the perfect victim, or the, like, very unconventional victim. She was not from, you know, a poor background. She was not abused as a child. She wasn't from the trailer park. She's somebody who, you know, is just so far out of the realm of what the rest of - most of the victims have looked like. And so, for her, you know, she has really worked hard on, you know, building herself back up. She is a psychologist now, and she's, you know, really wants to speak out. And her bravery is in wanting to really help others. And she's using, you know, I think through the Netflix platform, she's really trying to encourage others to do the same. So, she's really become a role model, I think. Certainly of, you know, those that testified, you know, again, her story is solid as a rock, not that the others, you know, there were some holes in some stories, but I think it's a fact that they were so young, and had so much abuse. Annie was one time, you know, never went back, you know, and didn't have all those other issues. So, I think, you know, she really is - done a tremendous job at keeping her life on the right path. And, you know, she still works on herself. And, you know, even though she is a therapist, and she, you know, feels strongly now to use that to help, you know, others however she can. So, she's a tremendous role model and a wonderful person, so I can't say enough good things about her.
Matthew Sherwood 16:57
And I think, I mean, just to stress here that, again, we are talking about the victims, they were most of them 14, 15, 16 years old at the time, weren't they?
Lisa Bryant 17:08
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 17:08
Yeah.
Lisa Bryant 17:09
Annie was 16. Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 17:11
Yeah. I think that takes us to a point, good point, to maybe have a early break for our listeners. So, we'll be right back with Maiken Baird and Lisa Bryant, co-directors of Ghislaine Maxwell: Filthy Rich. Netflix documentary, which premiered last month; it's December 1, on Netflix, so we'll be right back.
Factual America Midroll 17:35
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter @alamopictures to keep up-to-date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
Matthew Sherwood 17:55
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Maiken Baird and Lisa Bryant, co-directors of Ghislaine Maxwell: Filthy Rich. Netflix documentary. Lisa, we were just actually talking with both of you, but just about, you know, the trial and the victims. And I know you did the - you're a producer on the Jeffrey Epstein: Filthy Rich docu-series. Was a Ghislaine Maxwell doc always part of the plan?
Lisa Bryant 18:25
You know, I think it always cried out for that. She was a portion of that. You know, that was a docu-series. So, that was four parts. And, you know, her story, you know - I think that the Epstein story, I guess at that time, was so shocking, you know, we began that film, or that series, before he was even a thing. He was alive when we started that. And it was about eight months in when all of a sudden there's heat on him, you know, is he going to be arrested, he's arrested, and then he died. So, there was a lot of pivoting. And it was a crazy time. And this was no cakewalk either, you know, and as Maiken will attest to, it was so difficult in both, you know, series to get people to talk because even though they're all over pictures, seen with him, and the flight logs, and this that and the other, they never met him, don't know why their name is there. Don't want to talk about it. Don't want to, you know, just absolutely want nothing to do with the story. And so, it was extremely difficult. And this time, I think, and Maiken you can probably address this, I think in booking people and trying to get people to talk probably was even a bit harder. I think was easier with the women, perhaps this go around because they lived in fear of him who was still alive, and her. But this time, you know, there's a lot of competition in the documentary space, and I'm sure you can speak to that, and how hard it made our jobs to do that. But yes, to answer your original question. I think it always did cry out for one. We kind of immediately began plans to do that. And, you know, and acted on it. It took a while because of the length of the trial, and then the push of the delay and all that, but Maiken, what do you think about how difficult it was? I think you were really surprised, right?
Maiken Baird 20:13
I mean, I would say it was just absolutely impossible to get people to talk who had known her, you know, many of whom I know personally from my life who really wouldn't speak to me for a while, and basically don't - did not, definitely. They spoke off the record, a lot of them, but they did not want to go on camera ever. I mean it was really - because being associated with a woman who's been sex trafficking minor girls, is just not something that anyone wants.
Lisa Bryant 20:51
Yes, it was incredibly difficult. Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 20:54
No, no, but - you know, sorry to interrupt - yeah, no, I mean, but the thing is, what I will say is, because I have seen - so, I've seen the Jeffrey Epstein docu-series. I've seen, obviously, this other Ghislaine Maxwell doc that we've had on. There are, I mean, I'm not trying to make light of it, there are some people - I don't know what they do outside of their time, being interviewed for some of these docs, right. I mean, let's face it. But I will say some of them - I mean, maybe I don't - may not remember it correctly, but some of them seem to go a little bit further. Maybe their memories were a little bit better this time round? I don't know. Maybe it is because Jeffrey's -
Lisa Bryant 21:34
We dug deeper!
Matthew Sherwood 21:34
... well, I think you dug deeper, I think it was the - yeah, something because they were - everyone was well, We kind of heard rumors; No, I remember hearing so-and-so saying this and this, you know, kind of - it just did...
Maiken Baird 21:46
Listen, thank God for those people is all I can say!
Matthew Sherwood 21:51
Exactly.
Lisa Bryant 21:52
A good thing is we, you know, I mean, I think each documentary has its, you know, pluses and all of that, and new people or people you haven't heard from, but I think we did have, you know, a couple of really unique people like Petronella Wyatt, for example, who knew her father, knew him, and her from a very young age, and associated with them. And then, you know, this interior decorator that Ghislaine used, who was very fascinating, who, not at all, you know, embarrassed or ashamed to admit, you know, he - and he wasn't somebody that you saw everywhere, you know, and then I think, what also kind of set our documentary apart, at least, for when I watched everything is that we had the therapist who treats many of the survivors still to this day, what started with them. And she has a fantastic insight into these women. And, you know, she's really organic to this particular story; she's not just a generic person who can talk about abuse and how it affected women, she really knows how it affected these particular women, you know, or this group of women, not necessarily those women in this film. But so, I think, again, each one has something to offer. But as Maiken knows, you know, the people you're talking about, they did know her, but her best friends now wouldn't touch her with a ten foot pole. And that's who I think Maiken was referring to.
Matthew Sherwood 23:20
Yeah, yeah. And I think - but Maiken, I mean, you said, if you'd known how difficult it was going to be, maybe you would have said no, how did you get involved with this project?
Maiken Baird 23:30
Well, I did know her a bit.
Matthew Sherwood 23:33
Okay.
Maiken Baird 23:33
We were not friends, but I, you know, met her, you know, sort of have - we have a lot of friends in common. But also, just, I was very, very interested in how a woman who was, you know, from a very privileged background with a very good education, why she would choose this route for herself. I really was. I was really, really interested in that. I was approached by the team who had done Filthy Rich: Jeffrey Epstein. I was immediately really interested, because I just thought it was a great, great story, as did many, many other people, as it turns out, which is why it was difficult - most - the hardest thing about making this film was just how many other people were making this film.
Matthew Sherwood 24:16
Right.
Lisa Bryant 24:17
Yeah.
Maiken Baird 24:17
You know, and podcasts and films, because it was [such] a great story. It is such an incredible story. You know, so that was confirmed by everyone else thinking it was a great story. So, that was the toughest part, I think, really, honestly. It was just this - so many people not wanting to talk for obvious reasons. And then just, you know, but I think we still did a pretty good job. And I think we did get some really interesting people who said, you know, some great things, but it was, yeah, harder than you would expect because of just so many other films being done and the topic being a topic that nobody wants to be associated with; course not.
Lisa Bryant 24:57
In the Jeffrey Epstein one, I was saying how difficult it was. But, you know what, we were the only game in town because nobody would touch it, because that is the story. That's the real story: power and privilege. Even all the networks and people like that did not want to touch this. They were worried about lawsuits. Oh, well, he knew Clinton. Well, what if we need to interview President Clinton someday? What if we need to interview Harry and Meghan? As we know, ABC killed their story that they were going to do, and could have exposed him five years ago. You know, so, it, you know; fortunately, you know, it's out. It's done now, but it went on for far too long. And thus both shows were so difficult to do. And I wasn't surprised. I mean, Maiken kept saying, like, I can't believe this. I can't believe how hard - I was like, I really wasn't that surprised. So, it wasn't like, oh, you know, you're failing in getting these people. I knew that it would be extremely difficult. And just getting one or two is a huge win, you know what I mean? Just because it - the story is what it is. There's a lot of stigma attached to him, her, anyone, you know, in that world.
Maiken Baird 26:06
Well, there was also the story of like, some people did say yes, but then they go back to their homes, and they tell their son or their daughter or whatever, Oh, I'm doing this thing. And they're, you know, their families are like, no, you can't do that.
Lisa Bryant 26:10
They're horrified and back out.
Maiken Baird 26:24
So, it was - yeah, it was...
Matthew Sherwood 26:28
I mean, it's not - something you raised just a few minutes ago, Maiken, but, yeah, there's a great story; a lot of people are trying to tell it. As filmmakers, do you worry about such things? Or do you just say, no, we've got a - we know what we're trying to do. And we have the way we're going to tell this story. And you just go on. You don't let that be a factor? Or do you kind of do wonder what are others doing? How do you approach that?
Maiken Baird 26:58
Obviously, [we] always worried about what everyone else is doing; listen, of course we are. But the truth is, we did feel we had a very strong team of people making this and we had Netflix, which is a very, very big distribution platform. So, we had some advantages baked in, I think, so I wasn't as worried about it as I might have been, but it was definitely - made it very, very difficult to get, you know, the additional difficulty of getting interesting people because, you know, because so many other people were going after everyone.
Lisa Bryant 27:34
On our side, I want to add that - but, I think what on our side, and I feel thankful because I hear it time and time again, from the survivors, and I've heard it from the survivors who were in this is that they really feel, like, in the first series, the way that we treated the women with such respect. You know, they weren't hesitant to tell their stories. Yes, he was dead, they weren't as fearful, but to still tell their story for the first time, such as a couple of the women, you know, that were in the Maxwell story. I think it's a testament to them trusting us to treat them properly, and not to exploit them and make it feel gross and icky, and all the things that it is. So, we're proud of that, and happy that they're happy. And, you know, with how their stories have been told.
Matthew Sherwood 28:24
I mean, this other thing, we're also just talking about these people who don't want to talk, and for various reasons, we're not saying anything about why they don't want to talk, but it's - that's the big, that's what comes out in all these is that there's this circle of - it wasn't just Epstein, right. I mean, there were loads of individual, I'm assuming almost all men, involved in this, and that seems like that's the sort of next piece of the puzzle that really needs to be tackled. Do you think - would you agree? And is there - do you see anything afoot to go? I mean, you do mention we, you know, you do talk about Prince Andrew, obviously in the doc, that's one thing that's been happening in the last year, but, I mean, how do you feel about that?
Maiken Baird 29:15
I mean, to me, the biggest story since Watergate is this story. All of those people, and all of that, and all of those people who run the world, and the really, the pervasive sort of widespread - the reach of this thing was astounding. The sex trafficking operation, the amount of people who were involved: women and men who saw it and who looked the other way, everywhere. I mean, not just in America, not just Palm Beach, you know, like everywhere, is incredible. Incredible. And yeah, that story has not been told. And it's the Washington Post, the New York Times; I don't know what all those people are doing, but they should be out there investigating this, and getting - all of those men should be held accountable; I think, really.
Lisa Bryant 30:08
Yeah, well, I will add that having been on this a little bit longer, sadly, and it's completely wrong. I don't think, you know, that the big, you know, some things that I've read, you know, about all of the docs is: where are the names? Where are the names? It's like, you know what, we know the names, everybody kind of knows the names, but nobody can publicly say these names, because there's really no picture. There's no solid proof. And there's a huge cover up. We know there's a huge cover up, but who's at the head of the cover up? Well, that's a little muddy, because it's been covered up. So, I don't think the story will ever really be told fully, because of that very reason. So, yes, it's absolutely really the root of the story. But, you know, it's very difficult as the New York Times, as the Washington Post, as the Netflix, as in anyone, to mention names, I mean, in the first Filthy Rich, we mentioned Clinton, Prince Andrew, you know, Dershowitz and all these things that you're able, you know, that there's a story there, that's been widely reported, or there's some sort of, you know, corroboration to whatever it is that you're talking about. But it's very, very difficult to, you know, these are very, very powerful people, and people just aren't able to do that without risk ruining - they're having their own lives ruined by lawsuits and things that you just can't, you know, win against the, you know, these powerful people. And it's sad, but that is, you know, really the story of power and privilege, how it wins, and how it is won out, and I think it's very, very high levels of government that are covering up a lot of this.
Matthew Sherwood 31:51
Yeah, and then I think, yeah, and then things happen. I mean, the way - not to go down this rabbit hole, but the way Epstein obviously died, I mean, because it's such a cover up, it's just got everyone in the world just thinking the obvious, you know, whether it's true or not, or maybe it isn't, maybe there's a good chance that isn't true, but, you know, what are people supposed to think? You know, because the average person who's given any kind of notice to this story, thinks well, yeah, obviously there's more to this, you know. Okay. One more question. So, do you want to shut this down, Alice, or what, what... You can unmute yourself... Oh, okay. Okay. All right. So, before you - okay, well, then why don't we - that's fine. I was about to come to an end if it can be more than one question, but just maybe a couple more minutes. Is that okay? Okay... Okay, fine. So, give a little pause so we can edit this. So, Maiken, you're one of the cast as well. Was that your - how did that come about?
Maiken Baird 33:19
It's a really good question. I was at the trial every day including before, you know, when they were doing the jury selection; so, I spent a lot of time, you know, observing the whole legal procedure inside the courtroom, and I really found Bobbi Sternheim just an incredible character. So, I guess I just kind of mor - I just - I kind of morphed into her voice, I think. I wanted to find someone who was actually does this for a living and who could do it, but I just, I just felt like I had it better because I had seen and heard it every day, so much, her whole shtick, and it was just so ingrained in me, and I just felt like - I felt compelled because I'm really not interested in being an actress or anything like that.
Lisa Bryant 34:04
And she has a great deep voice. Obviously, I could not - I could portray the 16 year old girl on my voice a little. But Maiken has a very commanding voice. So, we had people read for it, but we liked Maiken's the best; so, we just went with that. It's funny that you would notice that, and - that's not the big point, I think.
Matthew Sherwood 34:25
It was just, you know, just scrolling down. I was like, Wait a minute. I didn't realize that that was - that was Maiken doing that voice.
Maiken Baird 34:31
I felt like I channeled her a bit.
Matthew Sherwood 34:37
So, it's hard to believe, but we're actually coming to the end of our time together, and I just have - what we usually do at the very end is just ask you what's next for you. So, Lisa, what's next? Another - does Filthy Rich carry on? What do you have on your plate?
Lisa Bryant 34:59
I think Filthy Rich probably is done, but you never say never. I mean, you just never know what's gonna happen in this story. So, I would never say never, for sure. I don't want to say too much, but I'm working on something in somewhat of a similar space, which I can't believe, but we'll see how that goes, and if I can emotionally handle that, but I'm working on a project right now. And, yeah, that's about all I can say.
Matthew Sherwood 35:29
Okay. And Maiken, what's next for you? I know you're, well, both of you are busy. But I know you're especially busy. We've had a few of the docs that you've executive produced on the podcast; so, your name comes up regularly. But what's next for you?
Maiken Baird 35:46
So, I have a film that's coming out tomorrow at the IFC called Tantura, which I produced, which is about the Israeli-Palestinian war in 1948. And then I'm going to - I'm developing two other feature docs, which again, I can't really talk about either, because they are not in the same space as this, but they are sort of access based. So, I'm working on just developing those for the new year. But, yeah, no, I think I'm going to try and stay away from this space for a little while. It was a pretty dark place to be.
Matthew Sherwood 36:27
I can imagine. I mean, that's what we have - sorry, Lisa. Yeah, no. I mean, how - because you are in this space, or you have been in this space, a bit. How do you cope with that? Because it can be a dark place.
Lisa Bryant 36:37
It's a lot, but it's also can be very rewarding, because there are several survivors from the first series, as well as this one that I've maintained, you know, friendships with, and relationships with, because they, you know, I don't know if I have a surrogate mother look or something to me. But, you know, a lot of these women are very damaged, and for whatever reason, maybe they don't have a lot of support from their families. And because I did most of the interviews with the women, especially on the first one, it's something that, you know, it warms my heart that I have that place in their lives. But it also - it's a lot, because some of them are still very damaged. And they can be, you know, very emotional, you know, hot and cold. And, you know, sometimes they can take things out on you and - so, anyway, but it's not the exact same space, I should say, that I'm working in, but I don't want to, you know, go too far there. I'm working on developing some other things as well that are not in that space, just for my own headspace to be okay.
Matthew Sherwood 37:40
Understood. Well. I think I've got to call it quits there, because otherwise, I'll get rapped on the hand for extending this any further, but it's been a pleasure to have both of you on. Thank you so much. Thanks so much for making this film. And I wish you well with all your future endeavors. Just to remind our audience we've been talking with Maiken Baird and Lisa Bryant, co-directors of Ghislaine Maxwell: Filthy Rich. Check it out on Netflix, it's streaming now, and you'll find it most likely in the Top Ten right at the front. So, thanks again and hope you - wish you all well.
Lisa Bryant 38:21
Thank you.
Maiken Baird 38:22 Thank you.
Matthew Sherwood 38:23
Thank you so much, really appreciate it. I also would like to thank those who helped make this podcast possible. A big shout out to Sam and Joe at Innersound Audio in York, England. Big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show, and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to our listeners. Many of you have been with us for four incredible seasons. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. Please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America signing off.
Factual America Outro 39:08
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures, specializing in documentaries, television, and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests, and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list, or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @alamopictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films, and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk