The Remarkable Human Story of Stephen Hawking
Hawking: Can You Hear Me? is a Sky Original documentary that explores the remarkable human story of Stephen Hawking, through candid interviews with his family, friends, and colleagues.
The film brings to life the man behind the persona of legendary theoretical physicist and cosmologist Stephen Hawking and in the process shows the impact fame and disability had on those closest to him.
Joining Factual America to discuss the making of the film and the challenges they faced are director Oliver Twinch and producer Anthony Geffen.
“If you know how difficult things were and how challenging things were through his everyday life, you came to understand more how extraordinary his triumphs were.” - Oliver Twinch
Time Stamps:
00:00 - The trailer for Hawking: Can You Hear Me?.
02:47 - What Hawking: Can You Hear Me? is all about.
04:22 - Stephen Hawking’s human side and common misconceptions about his life.
08:26 - The private side of Hawking’s life and the difficulty accessing this side of him.
10:17 - How Anthony gained the trust and confidence of Stephen’s family.
13:51 - Why the interviews were so emotionally challenging for the interviewees.
17:54 - How they made Hawking relatable and ‘human’.
21:13 - How the family responded to the finished film.
22:26 - The reconciliation Hawking had with his family before his death.
23:30 - How the idea for the film came about and how Oliver got involved with the project.
30:20 - How they came up with the structure that the film followed.
34:25 - The biggest challenges they faced when making the film.
37:11 - The positive aspects of Sky Docs compared to some other broadcasters.
38:34 - How the documentary film world has changed and the future of documentaries.
46:30 - The next projects Anthony and Oliver are working on.
Resources:
Hawking: Can You Hear Me? (2021)
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Oliver Twinch:
Connect with Anthony Geffen:
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 76: The Remarkable Human Story of Stephen Hawking
Oliver Twinch 00:00
Hi, my name's Oliver Twinch. I'm the director on Hawking: Can You Hear Me?
Anthony Geffen 00:04
Hi, I'm Anthony Geffen, and I'm the producer of Hawking: Can You Hear Me?
Speaker 1 00:13
Stephen was recognized as a rising star.
Speaker 2 00:17
I was with my father when he met the Pope.
Speaker 3 00:20
Who else could have lived such a dramatic life, and ended up immortalized?
Speaker 1 00:28
But people didn't scratch beneath the surface.
Speaker 3 00:31
Our family life was really hard.
Speaker 1 00:34
I just felt like throwing myself in the river.
Speaker 4 00:37
For the first time, the Hawking family give an intimate account of their life with the world's most famous physicist.
Speaker 2 00:44
I've never talked to anyone about that. And that was 23 years ago.
Matthew 00:52
That is a trailer from the documentary, Hawking: Can you Hear Me? And this is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo Pictures, an Austin and London based production company, making documentaries about America for international audiences. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. This week, it is my pleasure to welcome the award winning filmmakers behind Hawking: Can You Hear Me? Producer Anthony Geffen and director Oliver Twinch. Their film brings to life the man behind the persona of legendary theoretical physicist and cosmologist, Stephen Hawking, and in the process reveals the impact fame and disability had on those closest to him. Anthony and Oliver, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you? Anthony?
Anthony Geffen 01:38
Good. Great.
Matthew 01:39
Yeah.
Anthony Geffen 01:40
Yeah, thank you.
Matthew 01:42
And Oliver?
Oliver Twinch 01:43
Yeah. Very good, thank you. Thanks for having us on.
Matthew 01:45
Okay; well, it's a pleasure. As our audience should know by now the film is Hawking: Can You Hear Me? It released in September on Sky Documentaries, and available to stream here in the UK on Now TV. Guys, is it streaming anywhere else? Are international audiences able to see this yet?
Anthony Geffen 02:06
Yeah. It's going to go out around the world, but it will go around the world next year. Maybe various cinema - it's a cinema film - and maybe cinema releases before it goes out elsewhere in the world.
Matthew 02:20
Okay, well do keep us posted because we can always re-release this as those releases happen. We certainly - in terms of getting the word out. So, thanks again. It's a pleasure to have both of you on. Oliver, maybe you can get us started. And for those our audiences who haven't seen this, give us a little synopsis. What is what is Hawking: Can You Hear Me? all about?
Oliver Twinch 02:46
Hawking: Can You Hear Me? is the story of Professor Stephen Hawking, the late Professor Stephen Hawking, theoretical physicist, who was an icon of the 20th century, and theoretical physics. And he rose to prominence, really, with his book, A Brief History of Time, which was published in 1988. And that really catapulted him from being an academic into being a kind of a rock star physicist who was known on the global stage. And his life was a really remarkable one. And his physics that he kind of worked on was also incredibly remarkable. But what's very little told, is the human story. And that's what this film set out to tell.
Matthew 03:35
Okay. I mean, I think as you mentioned, this is a life that's played out in front of international media. I mean, for God's sake, you got Benedict Cumberbatch and Eddie Redmayne have both played him. He had the same chair at Cambridge that, you know, Sir Isaac Newton had; this rare combination of celebrity and scientist, best selling author, although I would claim, I mean, I don't know, I'll speak for myself, but it was always one of those books that was on the bookshelf, but I have to say I never actually got through it. But, I mean, you say you're trying to bring this life to him; Anthony, is this what captured your attention in terms of doing this project? Trying to bring this on - or maybe, what are we going to see that we haven't seen before?
Anthony Geffen 04:23
Well, I think the very beginning, when I was thinking about this film, really, there had been a lot of scientific films made about him. And what interested me was, here was an icon, a man in a wheelchair, and we knew very little about the real person, because he didn't particularly talk about himself in that way. Neither did anybody else. And so, from the very beginning, it was clear, very special access was going to be needed. And I met, about four or five years ago, with him, actually, on the pretext of doing something else, doing a VR film about the universe with him. And we got on very well. And we are - actually that hasn't come out, it'll come out next year, but we started a dialogue that I wanted to start, which was about, would he be prepared for a film to be made about him that hadn't been made before? One that, you know, had other people around him speaking, and was a very honest film, you know. And that's the only film we really wanted to make, you know, a film that really got to the bottom of who he was.
Matthew 05:31
Okay. And Oliver, what do you think are some of the main misconceptions about Stephen Hawking, and his life, as you got in on the project, and what you discovered as you started filming this?
Oliver Twinch 05:44
Well, I think one of the things that's really, kind of, I was quite interested in, was - and Anthony was - that he almost was like a kind of an icon, and put on a pedestal. There, you can somehow become slightly two dimensional, and you have kind of a presence, and a persona, which is there for the audience, and for the cameras, and for the big stage. And yet, what's going on behind the scenes, is much less understood. I think, the intimacy that Anthony talked about, of his personal life and his relationships, and the challenges he faced, are ones that have less been explored, largely because there hasn't been the ability to explore those with the people who were so important in his life. And I think what we had here was the extraordinary access that Anthony had got with the family and persuaded them to take part in this project. And so, what you see is this much more kind of intimate family picture that kind of tells the story of how difficult it was, I think, so, in a way, he was a man who came onstage, he spoke, he had his computer voice, he was able to give speeches, and with, you know, amazing pictures and things like this. And you forget how difficult it was to actually put that show on the road; to get to that point, was actually extraordinarily difficult. And this is something that his daughter Lucy talks about is just how difficult it was, just to put one sentence together; could take an extraordinarily long time. And on this public stage, it happens at a click of a switch, and it's all pre-recorded. But actually, the way in which - what they had to go through to get to that stage was quite extraordinary. I think, really, we were, like, exploring the sheer challenges that he faced, the reality of it. And if you know how difficult things were, and how challenging things were, through his everyday life, you came to understand more, how extraordinary his triumphs were.
Matthew 08:01
Yeah, I mean, indeed. I mean, I think it's, as you say, the - I mean, he also, to a degree, he played up the persona, though, didn't he, and he was a very private man. So, it almost required being told through the eyes of those close to him.
Anthony Geffen 08:22
I think you're right. I think he was a very private man. And actually, when we started to get involved in this film, you could see, there are very few people around him who really understood what was happening, and what happened in his life. And we needed those people to speak and not only speak, but speak honestly. So, I think the first thing was to get him on board to agree to releasing all sorts of things he hadn't unreleased before, having conversations about his life. But then the most important thing was to have interviews with the four or five people who were around him, who were there, because that's where the truth lies. The truth doesn't lie with people who, you know, maybe wrote an academic paper with him, they can comment on him professionally, but we wanted to, Ollie and I wanted to really understand the human, here. And that's much harder, much, much harder. And, of course, you know, Ollie does this so cleverly in the film, he juxtaposes different points of view which allows you as an audience to sort of make your own mind up, and I think that's important, you know, the decision Ollie made not to go with any narration is substantial; makes the film extremely hard to make, but much more powerful to watch.
Matthew 09:33
Yeah. It's the director's job to make the producer's life hell, isn't it! To do something that makes it harder. But, no, I think that's a very good point. And you do - I mean, how was that- filming the, you know, because you say it's these four to five people, specifically his children, his first wife, his sister, and then there's another layer, I guess. I mean, these people, it's a very intimate story for them. This is their, certainly the children, this is their upbringing, this is their - there's a lot of - I mean, Oliver, how did you find that filming them? Because they are very, they do expose themselves in a way that, maybe, they've never had before?
Oliver Twinch 10:16
Well, I think it's probably a question for Anthony, because I came onto the project at a stage where some of these early key interviews had already - that Anthony had kind of filmed them already. And then, I came on to, like, fill it out with people like his sister, Jane, for people who we kind of bought on board later. But those key interviews, which are so raw, and powerful, and extremely open and candid, were ones that Anthony produced, and was there for the interviews as well. So, he'd be better to talk about that.
Anthony Geffen 10:50
I mean, I think the, you know, and you met all the family, obviously, Ollie, and were able to take, you know, to take the filming in a different direction as well. But, I think the family took a long time to trust, because it's very easy to be burned. But you know, we have a track record of making films at Atlantic, and the films that Ollie himself's made, which, I think people can see, you know, working with Obama, Attenborough, Judi Dench, you know, the House of Commons, the Queen and the coronation, there's a trust level here that we had to get across, that they would allow us to really push those interviews, so we could get what we believe is the truth of what happened. That's very hard, and it took time, it took months and months and months to get that confidence. Even though we'd done films, and many films, where, you know, other people had trusted us and films had turned out extremely well for them. But we were asking to trust us because we wanted to tell the truth here. And I think we were - there's a little odd period, I think when Stephen Hawking died, I think a lot of reflection was going on in the family. Because, you know, you see in the film, lots of tough things happened. And I think that was possibly the right moment, not long after that, a year after that or so, where they were prepared once and once only. And I said, Why don't we do this once: make a film that really tackles everything, and put everything on the table, we're not going to not tackle things, because we're going to make a view of his whole life, the human story. And I think they bought into that, and they trusted us. But it took, in some cases, several interviews, because it was very painful; what they had experienced was very painful in some cases. And that's not easy. To be honest with you, standing there that's one of the toughest interviews I've ever been involved in because you could feel the pain was palpable in the room. And there was, sort of, the crew was feeling that pain, you know, that they felt. But they were very, very powerful interviews, and they were very, they're amazing that they put themselves through it. But I think they put themselves through it, knowing that this was the film where once and once only they could trust, and it would tell the true story.
Matthew 12:56
Yeah, I think that's worth reiterating that these are some very powerful interviews, and it's very, very apparent that they are - of what they're putting themselves through to in order to share their story. And yet, like all great films, and documentaries, this is about - as much as is it about Stephen Hawking and his family - it's about so many other things, I guess, it's a lot - it's an insight into what it's like to have motor neurone disease and disabilities and the impact that has on families. What may, actually, with all these challenges be achievable. I guess it's the - what's it like living a life where you always think that day's going to be your last? I mean, is that something you were...
Anthony Geffen 13:47
But I think it's also... sorry.
Matthew 13:50
Go ahead. No, no, no, go ahead.
Anthony Geffen 13:51
It's also, though, about - in these interviews, they actually talk about being pushed, or Jane does, being pushed to the edge of suicide. Or, Lucy talks about this, the dilemmas of what we deal with in the film, pushing her to become an alcoholic. These are serious problems. And they're very hard to air. I mean, we sometimes literally had to just pause in the filming because we were churning up things that they'd had in there but they hadn't really dealt with, yet. And they were dealing with on camera; that's very powerful. But you also have to be very careful because, you know, these are people's human emotions and feelings as well.
Oliver Twinch 14:30
We were filming quite a lot of people who hadn't necessarily spoken about Stephen since his passing, and it was very, kind of, powerful for them while we were doing the interview, and it required a lot of talking to them in advance. And also giving a lot of time for the interviews so that you weren't rushing things through. And it's giving the time and the space to explore those emotions and to kind of reminisce, and to kind of draw things together; and so, as filmmakers, you have to be better - factor in a lot of time to allow that to happen much more smoothly, and not to try and kind of pushing, pushing, pushing, which you get a lot of, filmmaking has to be very crunched. But these are such kind of emotive parts for them that you had to really kind of give them space.
Matthew 15:21
Yeah, and may I just say one thing as a American expat who has been living here for a while, in some ways, some of these interviews are very, very quintessentially English, the sort of English understatement that underlies a lot of these interviews and stories that I think makes them even more poignant, you know...
Anthony Geffen 15:40
I think people won't normally, the people in these positions don't normally talk about these things. Full stop.
Matthew 15:47
Yeah.
Anthony Geffen 15:48
But, you know, it's an interesting story, because around Stephen Hawking, there's a lot of, you know, a lot of speculation, there's a lot of - bits of controversy, there's - a lots of bits of other things. So, in a way, and I think this has proved with the film, by bringing these things out, it sort of puts to bed, a number of things and actually shows the things that maybe be less good but in perspective of a bigger picture of a - still a brilliant man. And that's the juxtaposition of the story. A lot of people might have gone for the sensationalism, and sort of started knocking Hawking. We started out with a genius, we ended with a genius, but we ended with a genius who had failings like us all and the human story is a much harder story to sell. If we just told the science story again, to be honest with you, that would have been an easy ride, you know, wouldn't have taken four years. But it took a long time because it needed trust, and needed understanding. And it really needed to get to that next level of be - I hate the word 'definitive', but in a way, it is a definitive film. But it's a definitive film, with all the elements in it and all the pain and anguish.
Matthew 16:52
Yeah. I mean, obviously, if you just want purely the science, maybe there's other places; you've got it in there, but there's probably other places to go. If you want the love story, well, we know about that.
Matthew 17:05
Yeah, but you've got that. But, you've got it all there; yet, it's the side that, as you say, that hasn't really - we haven't seen this. I mean, it's the theme of many great documentaries, which is this: flawed people are capable of amazing and great things. And we all have our flaws. And obviously, he and those around him had theirs. And we get - it probably makes - I don't know, to me personally, just speaking for myself, it makes me, I don't know, some, in a way, makes him more approachable or more easily... I don't know, it's something that I can relate to him better than I did before. Were you about to say something, Oliver?
Anthony Geffen 17:05
We have the love story in the movie, I think, you know.
Oliver Twinch 17:53
I think that's precisely what the aim was, was to make him relatable. And then we talked about earlier about him having this kind of public persona that people knew about through the press. But the press also meant that he was a very private person. And they didn't want to kind of let too many people in because it's press intrusion. And people coming look into your life is very difficult. And so, I think here, we wanted to make him a man again, and there's the - one of the things that his son Robert had said at his eulogy, and then how he ended was that, you know, he was his father, ultimately, at the end of it, and this is what we wanted to tell the story of, was a man who was a father, he was a husband, he was a brother. And these were human kind of relationships that we can all relate to. And there are things in there and it makes it because you see this intimacy in these personal stories. There are things which then chime with different people. People can relate to difficulties within your family, they can relate to, I don't know, your father who might be a little bit distant at times. People will know people have experienced directly the difficulty and challenges of dealing with someone who is very ill, or in a difficult situation. And I think those, once you explore those themes, which are very human themes, it makes them become someone who is more three dimensional, someone who can understand on an emotional level. And I think as Lucy said, within the film, she said, you know he wasn't also - there's a public persona, there's also the academic; he wasn't an ivory tower genius. He was a human and he was a person. And that's the story we really wanted to kind of get across.
Matthew 19:46
Okay, I think that takes us to - gonna give our listeners an early break and let our sponsor say a word. And so, we'll be right back with Anthony Geffen of Atlantic Productions and Oliver Twinch, the filmmakers behind Hawking: Can You Hear Me?
Factual America midroll 20:04
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Matthew 20:23
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with award winning filmmakers Anthony Geffen and Oliver Twinch. The film is Hawking: Can You Hear Me? released in September 2021 on Sky Documentaries, and streaming on Now TV here in the UK. Should be out for an international release sometime next year, we think, but watch this space. It's gotten rave reviews here in the UK. Telegraph, Radio Times. I see The Guardian. Five stars. "This intimate portrait of genius physicist Stephen Hawking shows the true toll of his physical decline on his family via revealing interviews with his first wife and children."; "A startling harrowing look at Stephen's secret life." So, that's what we've been discussing. Anthony, what do you think Stephen would say about this doc, if he could see it now?
Anthony Geffen 21:12
That's a really hard actually. I think the best way of describing it is that the family having seen the completed film, felt it was something that they were, you know, very proud to have taken part in and had a strong message. I mean, they accepted that, obviously, there are highs and lows in the film for everybody and different angles, but I think they gave the impression to me, and to Ollie, that Stephen would have been overall happy with this film. I mean, in anything you do in your life, you have highs and lows. So, you know, I think, you know, when you see the highs and the lows all together as long as the portrait's right, and I think they felt it was a portrait. And I think they even said there was quite a lot in there that they didn't know, which is a real, you know, complement to Ollie, really.
Matthew 22:00
Yeah. I think that comes out. That's a very interesting point. I mean, they - because I know there'd been sort of different fallings out and things here and there, but by the end of his life, he and his children had come, they had all reconciled, hadn't they? And they were back on, roughly on, speaking terms. Is that correct?
Oliver Twinch 22:26
Very much so. I mean, he was writing books with Lucy. And they were doing talks together. Clearly, you hear in the film stories about Tim, who's there as well, he's still in England. Robert's in America. So, he's much further away. So, he's living in the States. Clearly, there's this reconciliation, which comes about later in his life. So, I think that's kind of very powerful for them, and means a lot to them as well.
Matthew 22:58
And then, and Anthony, as you always say we don't need to go into specifics here, but you know, there were these controversies about his life and his family life. And those are dealt with here. And opportunities are given for various people to have their say. But, I mean, you were talking about how this got started. I mean, did you, Anthony, was this in terms of this project, you're working with them on something else. So, it was your idea to... and then you approached the family. Is that how it was?
Anthony Geffen 23:31
No, I was talking to him about a VR project. And it's quite interesting, VR, because when you try VR, and you put your headset on, and you move your head, and then you're in a 360 world, but the trouble is he couldn't move his head. So, I had to completely adapt a Virtual Reality headset for him. But he loved it. He absolutely loved it. And we soon got underway with a project, which we'll release next year, where you'll literally go through Stephen Hawking's mind in VR off into the universe, it'll be very spectacular. But, I mean just to give you an idea of the physics, there are several planets that we hadn't quite visualized at that time, because we didn't know what they look like, and since his death we found out that he did visualize the planets in exactly the right way. This is the sort of extraordinary perception of physics that he understand the universe. But, as I spend more time with him, and you know, this was a man who would take four hours to get out, you know, to get to the office, as it were, and have two hours in the office, very short windows, and have to go home again. He was really, you know, having to struggle to get through his workload. But, as I got to know him a little better, I suddenly realized that actually, you know, there really was a film here. Now, people don't really like films being made about themselves, and they tend to shy away and say, Oh, it's only about my science, but I was able to get his support to make a film about, you know, which is vital because he, you know, he's a very opinionated guy; if he didn't want it made it wouldn't be made, full stop.
Matthew 23:36
Yeah.
Anthony Geffen 24:53
And, you know, he had amazing presence, you know, when you were in a room with him in Cambridge, you know, he would, an eye would flicker, and people would know that he was in favor or not in favor of something. I mean, there's great presence in a room anyway, having got that backing, obviously, and I could get access to his materials, his photographs and other things, and talk to him about a certain number of things, it was quite clear that it was the family that was going to be able to take us through most of this story. And that started before Stephen died, and then obviously continued after Stephen's death, because in a way that became the big moment: were they gonna speak, or they're not gonna speak? Because I'd started discussions with them before, it felt that it had the blessing of Stephen, anyway. And that made it a lot easier. But these are very, very sensitive issues. And, you know, at that time, I had no idea whether I was going to get - I needed them all. We couldn't just have one of them. But it took a long time to get their confidence, really.
Matthew 25:55
I mean, you remind me, I actually know someone who is working for one of his foundations in the last few years of his life, and she said it was just incredible. Well, you were talking about his presence. She was tasked with organizing a fundraising event in record time. And she's like, there's no way I can do this in 90 days with this guest list. But then she would call up Bill Clinton. And Bill Clinton would say, Yeah, I'll be there. You know, and just this list of world leaders who would drop everything, forget they have some of the busiest schedules that you can imagine. Were just like, Oh, it's Stephen Hawking? Yeah, yeah, I can be there. You know, and it's quite impressive, actually. Oliver, when did you come onto the project?
Oliver Twinch 26:41
So, I came onto the project in 2020... 2020, wasn't it, I think, and it had been kind of commissioned - by this stage, the form, kind of main interviews, had been done. And it had been commissioned by Sky. So, then it was a question of then, okay, we've got this extraordinary golden resource of the amazing interviews, and this extraordinary story. How do we then kind of weave it together to create a powerful portrayal of Stephen, the man? And so, that's then when we came in with going, Okay, who else do we need to kind of interview to kind of bring things together, how can we film it to make it feel like it's his story? And how can we do things like illustrate the science in a different way, so it doesn't feel like a science film. And as you said, the science has been done in many different kinds of series and films before. And we wanted to kind of keep it on the emotive level. So, that's where we started - you're talking about world leaders saying, yes. If you're filming in Cambridge, for a film about Stephen Hawking, in which Stephen Hawking Foundation has kind of has given its blessing, then it becomes a lot easier to suddenly film in Cambridge colleges, at the drop of a hat, and go to different places, you find a lot of doors open very fast. And so, that was - it was really was then the key to kind of really to work at which were the bits of the story that would really help tell his journey, in the most kind of emotive way. So, that was really...
Anthony Geffen 28:28
I think, what's unusual about this film, partly because it hasn't gotten narration is, is all the way through the process as I was making it, tiny changes can change a much bigger view, because that balance can fall out on a person. So, you think this is the way they're going, and then they go in a different direction. And it's a very finely honed film, to allow the audience to sort of go through and make their own view, but very small changes could have a big impact on how we could see Hawking or see one of the individuals in the film.
Oliver Twinch 29:04
I think it's very important for us as well to - the aim without having a narrator and having the people who were most closely involved with him, was to try and almost read it partly like a drama, in that we wanted to have the people who were in the room when these things happened. So, they're talking in first person testimony about things that they experienced. So, this was as much a story about them as it is about Stephen, in which Stephen is the key character. So, really, the - very much the aim was to try and almost have these scenes that were in real time; it was through their eyes. So, we weren't - it mostly wasn't hearsay, it wasn't something from a biography. It was the people who were there at the time telling those stories and what it felt like for them at that moment. That was crucial to kind of working out who else we would interview and how we would interview them.
Matthew 30:01
And I mean, if it's fair to say, it's largely a chronological telling of the story, you know you are dealing with the author of A Brief History of Time, who talked about time travel and things. Did you ever think about structuring it differently? Or was this the best way of telling that story?
Oliver Twinch 30:22
I think we did play, as you do with documentaries, with changing things around and mixing things up. But I think there was so much - what we kept, was that idea of time and timelessness, and why we chose to film all the shots we have in Cambridge, where he spent most of his life were - we actually - COVID, and lockdown meant that these places were empty, so there was no one there. But they added a kind of a timelessness to these spaces that he had passed through himself. And we actually filmed these all at kind of the eye level of his wheelchair. So, we knew how his wheelchair wasn't his point of view. And then that's why we kind of went down that route, it was to kind of really bring it to life in that way. I'm sorry, I've forgotten where we were going with this. But it was a...
Matthew 31:25
Well, it was just...
Anthony Geffen 31:26
But I think one of the things, you got to realize is, because this film is partly about somebody who's only expected to last a couple of years and then lasted many, many years beyond that. But the changes that you have in him relate to his motor neurone disease. So, if you totally break the timeline, you're sort of all over the place, because we really wanted to tackle that central issue. And so, we, you know, Ollie changes a little bit at the beginning, but we just realized that in the end, the chronology was actually very important because there's changes going on in him. And that's what a lot of the film's, about.
Oliver Twinch 32:02
We did also use - we kept Mary, his sister, as this almost portal back to a younger time. So that her reminiscences, and her stories enabled us to kind of flashback to his childhood, and to earlier stages of his life. So, we didn't want to do a fully kind of chronological kind of birth-to-death story. We wanted to pick it up at a sort of the point at which kind of his disease really kind of takes over. But then we use Mary's kind of interviews to enable us to kind of flashback in time. So, they are throughout the film - we don't have them all bunched up at the top - they allow us to kind of explore these stories of his childhood in these little moments that tell you something about him later. And there's even stories in there, which we didn't have in, which we would have loved to. We kept the big fireworks in later on. But we had to take out for timing, a story that she told us which, you know, Stephen's children didn't know about, that they had used to make fireworks as a kid. And their father had taught them how to make fireworks with gunpowder. And they used to go to the chemist to buy all the kind of things that make them pop and whizz and fizz in more colorful ways. And so, fireworks were this extraordinary thing that were part of Stephen's life, right up until the end. He loved fireworks, and had huge firework displays in his garden. And those little moments and those little stories, like when at Golders Green, he stands up to sing this great big song. They're quite telling about a character. And so, they were little things that allow us to jump backwards and forwards in time.
Matthew 33:49
I think that's really interesting. And it just reminds me I used to live near St. Albans and the story about him going ice skating on the ponds there in the park. I'm, like, that's proof that there is global warming, because I can't remember the last time those ponds have ever frozen over. But, you know, that's over 50, nearly 60 years, ago. I mean, besides COVID and all - and the things we've already talked about, what were the other big challenges in getting this film to the screen? Anthony, is there...?
Anthony Geffen 34:25
I think always what was hard with this film was getting the confidence because it was a very small group of people, and keeping the confidence to come out and say, what had happened at each stage and talk about it, you know, in an open and honest way. And I think that was always the hardest thing at every stage. I mean, yes, getting - I'm sure Ollie can talk to getting interviews done, himself. Of course, they're hard and you have to go through those. But it was this whole relationship of this small group of people who were going to be central to this film, who we needed to keep on side. And I think that, I think you'd agree, Ollie, it was probably the hardest element of this film. And that, you know, that took a long time, you know, if you take it from the very beginning to when we got it out, you know, on the cinema screen as it were, and then on Sky.
Oliver Twinch 35:14
I think it was very much that, as Anthony said there, you take an interview, do an interview, but that's not the end point. The relationship continues, and you need to kind of maintain kind of trust and collaboration, to ensure that you have all these other people you need to come on board and all these other kinds of things you have to happen. And so, it is very much a process of continued kind of relationships, and you need to kind of be aware of who they are, what kind of sensitivities there might be, how you can kind of tell a story in a different way and where you might go to be able to do that. So, it's a - practical challenges with filming, as there always are. But it's a big part of the film.
Anthony Geffen 36:08
I think, yeah. And it was another part of that is that everybody wanted this film. But Sky, were prepared to go the whole hog in terms of time, and give us the time to make it, you know, a lot of broadcasters who just say we've got to get on air on a certain date, and that's the end of it. And I think with this film, we needed the time to get it right. Because, you know, this is a one-off film, in a way. I don't think the family will ever - saying they won't ever - partake in any more filming. So, I think it was really important to us that we had the time to make it the way we wanted to make it. And this film is quite a fragile film in many ways to get absolutely right. And Ollie, you know, did brilliantly. But I think it needed time. And a lot of broadcasters they don't give you time.
Matthew 36:54
That's interesting. It's not meant to be a plug or an advert for Sky Docs. But they are relatively new, aren't they, to the scene? Is this something that you've discovered with them that they are taking this fresh approach? Or maybe an older approach.
Anthony Geffen 37:10
Yeah, I think they are. But I think that's the approach, you know, if you're new on the block, you've got to come with different things. And I think their attitude - I can't talk about films that I haven't made with them - but I think it was an attitude that this was a very special film, and this was to show how Sky could, you know, it's the sort of film Sky would make. And so, I don't know that, you know, the same time given to every film but I think they realize to have quality films you've got to give time, particularly when it's sensitive. And I would say that's very, you know, Sky are certainly prepared to do that. And I think a lot of other broadcasters, you know, time is money, aren't prepared to put that extra time-money in. But you wouldn't get a film like this in less than about four years, you just couldn't, it was very hard to make.
Matthew 37:53
I think this raises some interesting points. And we're starting to get towards the end of our time together, unfortunately, but especially Anthony with your experience and CEO of Atlantic Productions, I mean, you know, a lot of talk about this being a golden age of documentary. And we had a guest recently on who's now thinking that maybe we're gone a little bit past that, actually. I mean, from your perspective, what is the state of the play, the State of Union of documentary films, in your estimation? And also, where are things headed? Because I know you do a lot of work with VR and these sort of things.
Anthony Geffen 38:34
I think, first of all, you know, budgets are getting tighter. There are less people making what I call really in-depth documentaries, because they're expensive to make. And so, you know, is it the golden age? Well, I think every so often, great films keep popping up. But I think it's nothing like when I was at the BBC many years ago, you know, over 10 years, where there was an opportunity to make long, you know, films over a long period of time. And in lots of different ways. So, I think that may be a different era. So, I'm not saying documentaries are dead, but major documentaries are finding it harder to get into prime time. And that's harder, because then there's less cost attracted to them. So, I think it's harder to make great docs, these days. I think the future is interesting, because I think we thought for a long time that YouTube would obliterate television. Well, it didn't. Because, in the end, you know, you don't become a great director because you just make a home movie and stick it on YouTube. In fact, our problem is that we're getting less good storytellers because we're getting less people trained in the business to learn to really tell good stories. But there are new mediums coming. I mean, I like to say that we are now on the cusp of moving from the smartphone generation to the immersive generation. And all I can say is we've got a full time company working in the immersive era now. And I think that's a very, very exciting era. And it's only going to become exciting when everyone can have access to it, and it's not just dependent on a VR headset, which some people like and others don't. It's literally something that will be played out with new technology, which is coming in the next few years, where you are immersed in a world, whether you want to create screens in that world or you want to go to a different place, interact. And I believe that's a big revolution. Will it really get rid of documentaries? No. But, it will be a very powerful medium, because, believe it or not, when you're in an immersive space, as we've found, and we've done tests on people, and when we've been telling them stories, you react very strongly, and your brain cells tend to buzz away. So, I think that the future of storytelling is going to move on to other platforms. And that's going to mean documentaries have got to do their things really well, because they're gonna to be competing with a different world, and they're never gonna disappear. But they're going to have to work harder, because they've had a nice run. 2D is, you know, is great. 3D was short lived but great. But immersive storytelling can be 15, or 20 minutes, at the moment in an immersive world. And we've already found that we can get millions of people to plug into these experiences. So, you know, I think the world's changing and I think that's good.
Matthew 41:08
And so, it does sound very exciting. I mean, we're talking everything from cinemas are going to be transformed. Is that right? I mean, or potentially.
Anthony Geffen 41:17
Potentially, yeah, I think cinemas will still be great. But I think what this means is you can get what you want, where you want, on the go in an immersive environment that you can control, and these are anything from, you know, we just finished one with David Attenborough, where you go into a school museum and it's on Apple, where you literally plug in - whole world are created on your desk, and you interact with them. And that's exciting for people. And that's just the beginning of it. And I think the interesting thing is, we haven't yet seen where this is coming from. But I can tell you now working with some of the leading manufacturers, what's coming down the line is extraordinary, and will allow us to tell - allow you to put Shakespeare on your table. I mean, it's very exciting.
Matthew 42:02
Well, that's - and Sir David is adapting like everyone else. I mean, he's amazing.
Anthony Geffen 42:10
David is a brilliant storyteller. And so, therefore, you know, having had 10 years working with him, the beauty of this is that I can adapt things we made before in a 3D world and the BAFTA winning stuff, I can adapt that into this new world. And, you know, so David will go on to the latest platforms forever because he's a great storyteller and a great individual.
Matthew 42:34
And Oliver, as a director, what's your perspective on this? And how is it affecting you?
Oliver Twinch 42:41
Well, I think you've also got - there's, I mean, the streamers now kind of doing a lot more documentary making. And so, you are seeing in certain fields, you're seeing, you know, lots of more kind of, like, interests, and I think, because of lockdown, you had a huge rise in people's interest in documentaries, and exploring lives and stories, through fact, and different ways of exploring it. So, I think there is still new ways in which things are being done for television, and there's new audiences, and there are new platforms for them to come out as well.
Anthony Geffen 43:20
I think you're absolutely right on that. I mean, I don't want in any way, belittle the fact that the streamers are coming, with larger budgets, big ambitions, you almost want the cinema on television, and that's great. And I think that's fantastic. You know, I think maybe the terrestrials have got to work a bit harder, you know, they keep bleating they've got less money. Of course they have, but, you know, there are ways of getting good documentaries on the screen. But yes, there's no doubt the rise of the streamers is bringing some big budgets. The only trouble is, there is a slight feeling, I guess, that in that space, because they have to appeal to the whole world, they make slightly different films. So, are they - I'm not going to say for one moment they are Disneyfying, but are they, are they in some way, you know, creating that generic story that they're going to push us into, when we've all grown up, Ollie and I, have certainly grown up in a culture where there's a certain amount of independence of storytelling, and then you - like this film does. This film will - Sky have already said it's going to be bought by 100 countries, you know; we didn't adapt it in one way to do that. We told what we believe was a great story. And I think, you know, the streamers at the moment are great, but I still have the slight worry that they are now beginning to look at the algorithms very carefully. And, you know, will that change the quality of documentary? I don't know is the answer.
Matthew 44:37
I think that's an interesting point. We have had a guest or two on who have done films for one of the streamers - not to be named - and have shared that, yeah, there are these elements. I think your concerns or your points are well founded. At the same time, maybe it's also being about agile and adaptable as a director or filmmaker yourself. Because as one said, Look, the streamer said, No, this is going to be the title, you know, because we've, whatever, we've market tested it and everything. And he basically took it and said, Well, what about these three? You know, he kind of did something similar. They kind of, there's a toing and froing that I think, probably - whereas we've had other ones who said, Well, if that's what you want it to be, then yes, okay. If you say that this many more eyeballs will see it, if we title it that then, I mean, this is a minor thing, titling the film, but...
Anthony Geffen 45:30
I think you're right. And I think, you know, it's just something that I'm aware of, I mean, I don't want to knock them for one minute because we're doing things for streamers right now, which we wouldn't be anyone for else. And they're thinking big and ambitiously, creative and cinematic. So, that is great. But it does worry me that, you know, that there are conversations I know that other directors have had with me where they're making these films, and they're being honed in a lot more; now, is there a price to be honed in? Yes, of course, is it honed into much? Who knows. But there is that worry, I think, of trying to satisfy a global audience, which, you know, it's different when I have a co-production between the BBC, let's say, and PBS, there are slight variations. But once you're trying to actually appeal and hit beats, for an international does it change? Well, Hollywood films do that, don't they? So, they've got to get somewhere in between of dealing with that.
Matthew 46:21
Well, with all this in mind, one last question for you. Anthony, what's next for you?
Anthony Geffen 46:30
Well, I'm working on a number of large scale docs for streamers, and other things; haven't been announced yet, so, I'd have my head blown off if I told you...
Matthew 46:39
It's the usual story!
Anthony Geffen 46:39
I'm also working on a number of projects, which are exciting in the immersive space. So, we're doing, you know, four or five really exciting, big scale documentaries in different parts of the world that, I think, are really important, like, you know, the Middle East. And we're working on some other very ambitious projects, as well. So, what I like is working the same time in telling the stories, big and bold on a big platform and a couple of cinema docs. But at the same time looking at these other platforms, which are really exciting, I can tell you, to be working on.
Matthew 47:13
And Oliver, what about you,
Oliver Twinch 47:14
I'm kind of doing something slightly different, which is a five-part series on how animals are changing and adapting to our shifting planet. Looking at how the planet is shifting in terms of climate, population growth, pollution, but actually how we can see what's happening by following what the animals are doing and how they're responding and adapting and changing. So, it's quite a different space. But equally exciting.
Matthew 47:47
It does some very interesting, and are you at liberty to say any more than that? Or are we just...
Oliver Twinch 47:52
I'd save things at the moment.
Matthew 47:55
Okay, well, can I thank both of you so much for coming on. It's been a thrill having you on. I really enjoyed talking about the film, Hawking: Can You Hear Me? which is released on Sky Docs in September, and is available in the UK on Now TV, and will be releasing worldwide in the months ahead. So, both of you, if I haven't scared you off, hopefully, we can have you on again some time. It's a very, it's an exciting time. And as you've already talked about, to be in this field, and it's very interesting, and I know our audiences would love to hear more. So thanks again for coming on.
Oliver Twinch 48:36
Thank you.
Anthony Geffen 48:37
Thanks very much.
Matthew 48:39
So, just want to give another big thank you to Anthony Geffen and Oliver Twinch, the producer and director of Hawking: Can You Hear Me? Released on Sky Docs in September 2021. And can also be found on Now TV. I want to basically alert you to an exciting new collaboration we'll be announcing in the coming weeks with a leading film magazine, so please watch this space for more details. A shout out to Sam and Joe at Innersound Audio, here in Escrick, England, which is just outside of York. And a big thanks to Nevena Paunovic, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures who ensures we continue getting such great guests, like Anthony and Oliver, onto the show. And finally a big thanks to our listeners. As always, we love to hear from you, so please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. And please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family. wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.
Factual America Outro 49:37
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures specializing in documentaries, television, and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests, and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter @alamopictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films, and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk