Miles Davis: The Coolest Music Innovator of the 20th Century

Factual America

26 Jan

Written By

Miles Davis was among the most influential and acclaimed figures in the history of jazz and 20th-century music.

An iconic trumpeter and composer, Miles changed the genre of jazz more times than anyone before him or anyone since. He invented what we today call cool jazz, hard bop, and jazz fusion. His album Kind of Blue is one of the greatest pieces of art of the 20th century.

Award-winning director and producer, Stanley Nelson, joins us to discuss his documentary Miles Davis: Birth of The Cool. We learn about the music innovator's life journey, and the challenges that Stanley faced bringing Miles's story to the big screen.

Available to watch on PBS, Netflix, and Amazon Prime, the film tells the story of Miles’s genius. His career encapsulated everything from playing with Charlie Parker and Dizzie Gillespie to influencing generations of musicians. Miles was also a trend-setter and fashion icon, who way too often succumbed to his destructive drug addictions.

“Miles was an icon to the African-American community; he became a black man that demanded excellence in his music and his life.” - Stanley Nelson

Time Stamps:

03:58 - A brief summary of who Miles Davis was.
08:03 - What he meant to the world of music.
11:31 - The essence of his genius and his obsession with music.
16:21 - How the director Stanley Nelson came up with the film's title.
18:59 - Miles's distinctive music style.
20:17 - The complexities of his personality.
23:43 - How the idea for making this film was born.
25:24 - The challenges of making a documentary about an indisputable legend.
28:55 - Why it was important to include all aspects of Miles’ life.
30:22 - Using a voice-over in the film and why Miles Davis had such a raspy voice.
33:31 - What it was like interviewing Francis Taylor.
37:12 - Miles’s abusive relationships with women.
38:53 - The race issues that Miles faced because of his skin colour.
44:20 - What Miles meant to the African-American community.
49:37 - What would Miles think of the past year if he were still alive?
51:57 - What it was like for Stanley to win a National Humanities medal.
53:16 - Stanley’s upcoming projects and and his advice to aspiring documentarians.
57:28 - The special age of documentary filmmaking.

Resources:

Miles Davis: Birth of The Cool (2020)
Kind Of Blue (1959)
Someday My Prince Will Come
Crack
Alamo Pictures
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Uprooted: American History through Jazz Dance on Factual America
Streetlight Harmonies: The Lasting Legacy of Doo-Wop on Factual America

Transcript for Factual America Episode 45 - Miles Davis: The Coolest Music Innovator of the 20th Century

Stanley Nelson 0:00
Hi, I'm Stanley Nelson and I'm the director of Miles Davis: Birth of the Cool.

Miles Davis 0:05
Music has always been like a curse with me. It's the first thing in my life, go to bed thinking about it and wake up thinking about it. That's all I live for.

Speaker 1 0:19
Miles started very early.

Speaker 2 0:21
He looked at things differently. He saw things differently. Without a doubt the most unique person I've ever known.

Speaker 3 0:27
He wanted to be an artist, just like Stravinsky.

Miles Davis 0:33
A lot of the old guys thought that if you went to school, it would make you play like you were white. If you learn something from theory, you would lose the feeling in your playing. I wanted to see what was going on in all of music.

Speaker 4 0:45
Juilliard, in the daytime and at night, he'd be on 52nd Street.

Miles Davis 0:50
He put a bell on his horn right into the microphone, and changed the whole world of jazz right there.

Speaker 2 0:58
He comes up with a style that is truly reflective of who he is. He was angry, anti social...

Speaker 5 1:04
But then he starts playing and people are like ahhh... he just disarms you.

Speaker 2 1:08
He surrounded himself with young, emerging unknown voices.

Matthew 1:13
We were kids.

Speaker 6 1:14
We were looking at every night going to a laboratory. Miles was the head chemist.

Speaker 7 1:18
He wanted us to live on the stage, creating in front of the people. Don't lean on what you know. What he was looking for is the stuff that you don't know.

Speaker 8 1:28
We didn't just want to play with Miles Davis. We wanted to be Miles Davis.

Speaker 9 1:35
Miles's audience was changing, absorbing what was happening now.

Miles Davis 1:39
If anybody wants to keep creating, they have to be about change. I lost my sense of discipline, and started to drift. Before I knew it. I had a heroin addict.

Speaker 5 1:50
Miles becomes representative of a kind of cool, kind of sophistication, a kind of masculinity...

Unknown Speaker 1:58
Miles and Francis. I mean, we were hot couple. The elevator opened and there he was. It was like in a movie when you meet the vampire and you know you're gonna die and you don't care.

Speaker 2 2:10
He becomes our black Superman

Miles Davis 2:13
All I ever wanted to do was communicate what I felt through music.

Intro 2:26
That is the trailer for the documentary Miles Davis: Birth of the Cool. And this is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo pictures, a London based production company making documentaries about America for international audiences. Today we're talking about Miles Davis, the iconic trumpeter and composer, and helping us to learn more about one of the most influential figures in 20th century music and the challenges of bringing his life to the big screen is acclaimed director and producer Stanley Nelson. Stanley, welcome to Factual America. How are you?

Stanley Nelson 3:00
Great, thank you.

Matthew 3:03
It's great to have you. It's an honor. The film we're talking about today is Miles Davis: Birth of the Cool. I gather, originally out on the American Experience series on PBS, but now out on Netflix, I believe also Amazon prime, Apple and other streaming platforms. So thanks again so much for coming on to the podcast. And thanks for making this film. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Now, I'm going to ask you a question I can't believe I'm asking. But I'm also aware that it's, believe it or not, almost 30 years since Miles Davis passed away. And so a lot of our listeners may not even really know who Miles Davis is, believe it or not. Probably hard for you to believe. But maybe you can give us a little synopsis of who Miles Davis was.

Stanley Nelson 3:59
Yeah, Miles Davis's career was so expansive that I'll try to be as... But, you know, Miles Davis was a trumpet player from East St. Louis, he moved to New York, around little 1940s. When he was 18, he had a scholarship to Juilliard. But he quickly migrated to the jazz scene and played with everybody, you know, from Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, everybody. And he became one of the most celebrated musicians of the 20th century. He changed jazz, you know, three or four or five times, invented the kind of cool jazz when he issued an album called Cool in the 50s. He invented kind of what was called hard bop. Afterwards, then, he switched jazz alltogether when he made the album Kind of Blue, which is still the largest sold jazz album and in the history of music, one of the classic albums. If you don't know about Miles Davis, I suggest that you start with Kind of Blue. It's one of the greatest pieces of art in any century, I think that, you know, I would challenge anybody to not like Kind of Blue. It's just almost, inlfuenced many Coltrane and others... he then went on and kind of invent fusion with the kind of, went electric and made the album called Bitches Brew. So he was responsible for so many changes, not only in jazz, but also in music.

Matthew 5:50
I think you've done an amazing job summing it up. As hard as it is to do that in a matter of a couple minutes. And I would agree with you, Kind of Blue, there are not many albums I can listen to just on a loop and never get tired of. And I could have that on all day long.

Stanley Nelson 6:14
It drives my wife crazy, but, you know.

Matthew 6:18
I mean, that's one I often, I think the great thing about this film is, I don't know why but some of these great albums I have, but they've stayed on the shelf. And it got me thinking about some of these, whether it's sort of the prestige era with like, I've got working with the Miles Davis Quintet, Miles Ahead, Sketches of Spain, the work with Gil Evans, it's all just so iconic. And you've already talked about his hands and all the different whether it's bebop, hard bop, cool jazz, acid jazz, fusion, onto rock genre defying, I mean, he's sort of this, he is the, I was gonna say the link, but he's really almost the strand that takes jazz through most of the 20th century, isn't he?

Stanley Nelson 7:10
Like somebody said, you know, he's the only person that ever you could imagine playing from everybody from Charlie Parker to Prince.

Matthew 7:27
Yeah, I mean, you do have that in the film. I hadn't realized he had performed with Prince. And it's his son who says they're like, they were made for each other in some ways.

Stanley Nelson 7:40
Yeah, they were talking about doing an album together. But they did perform together a couple of times, and we were lucky enough to arrange from Prince's estate to actually get them.

Matthew 7:55
You've already sort of touched on, but I mean, what did he mean to jazz? And then what did he mean to music generally?

Stanley Nelson 8:03
Yeah, you know, it's hard to describe, you know, Miles and what he meant, just by kind of listening what he did. Because, thing is that, you know, he was an innovator with everything that he did. And also that he created incredible music. It wasn't like, you know, Miles just said, oh, let me do an album with a huge orchestra, like philharmonic type orchestras, you know, the music that he did. But he did it and he innovated and just did great, great thing. So Miles was, in so many ways, a leader, in jazz and in music, you know. So many rock moves, have have really gotten so much out of his later albums, like Bitches Brew, etc. You actually hear from rock musicians, you know, kind of that's for the film, because they really got so much out of the film. You know, he kind of invented the idea of jazz rock fusion in the late 60s when he just said hey, I want to do something different. It's really telling that, you know, his son tells us later in the film that Miles never had his own albums around the house. He didn't listen to his own music, because he was always ahead, he was on to the next thing. And just, you know, incorporating different sounds into his music. In one album, On the Corner, you know, he has a tabla player, a sitar player. But again, you know, it's not like, let's do something different to do something different. It's like, he really created something different and a new style of music every time.

Matthew 9:57
I think that was what I took away from it as well. It was how he surrounded himself with this, as you said, he didn't want to go back. I think, whether in your film or I have heard otherwise, he didn't even listen to his old stuff sometimes for years. But he surrounded himself with this amazing young talent. Each permutation of his career in next stage was just these amazing, I mean, what was it, one of the drummers was only 17, I think.

Stanley Nelson 10:25
Yeah. He launched so many careers, you know, Cannonball Adderley, early on, you know, later on, John McLaughlin, Tony Williams, the 17 year old drummer, Keith Jarrett, Chick Corea. I mean, you could go on and on and on, listing people that he really launched, launched out of his group. You know, now, those people are great musicians, so that they would have been launched anyway, but the way that they did launch was by playing with Miles Davis.

Matthew 11:08
And I can't remember his exact words, but he says something in fact that one reason for that is he's just looking for, as you said, he's looking for excellent musicians. geniuses some ways in their own right. And what do you think was the essence of Miles's genius?

Stanley Nelson 11:29
You know, I think so many different things. I think that first of all, you know, he loved music. For musicians and great musicians, you know, music means something to them, that it doesn't to most people. I mean, I like to listen to music, but I'm not obsessed, you know. He just loved music, and different kinds of music. And he loved change, that's just what he was. He was about, you know, constantly changing and developing and trying new things. And he had a huge talent for finding great musicians, you know, great musicians, and played with them. There's one line in the film, from Miles where he says, you know, something like, yeah, I play with young guys, because, you know, I don't see what age has to do with it. Right? You either got it or you don't, and age has nothing to do with it. So that was a big risk that, you know, he came out and just steped forward so many different times, he really risked it. I mean, look, Kind of Blue was recorded in like '58-'59, you know, that was, again the most popular jazz album ever made. It has been the most popular jazz album. Miles Davis could have spent the rest of his career playing Kind of Blue. Okay, you know, we're gonna play Kind of Blue, you know, just the five or six tracks that are on Kind of Blue, we're just gonna play it in order and over and over and over again. He could have made zillions, you know, but no, he didn't. He said, okay, you know, I'll play some of the songs over there for a little while, but then I'm gonna go on, move on and do something different.

Matthew 13:27
I do remember, my memory of him is, as a kid basically, his stage where he was on TV a lot in the 80s, you know, doing all the talk shows. But I do seem to remember an interview that struck me and has always stayed with me was that he said something to the effect that, go to a Lakers game, LA Lakers basketball game. And that everyone else is watching the game. They're watching Magic Johnson. And he's just, he says what he hears is the sound of the feet. And the beat of the game. In many ways he couldn't turn it off. It seems to me.

Stanley Nelson 14:09
Well, that's a great story. We actually don't use it in the film. A great musician who played with Miles told me that he was sitting next to Miles at the game. And they go to a basketball game and Miles is like, not even looking at the game. He goes like why don't you watch the game? What are you doing? He said, I'm listening. Listening to what, like? Listening to the sound of the sneakers. Squeak. You know, have you ever been to a live basketball game, that's kind of the first thing you notice that the sneakers squeak and make this sounds on the floor that you can't hear when you're watching on television. But that was Miles. Just everything was music, you know, all of life. You know, when he first comes to New York at 18, he's going to Juilliard. You know, famous School of Music, he's going to Julliard, playing classical trumpet. And at night, he's playing with Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie, you know, on 52nd Street. And then he goes home. And he borrows scores from the library of Juilliard. And he goes home after, you know, this clubs, like one or two in the morning. And he's reading scores and poring over scores with other musicians, classical scores, until the morning. Then he goes to Julliard, you know, he's just soaked in music.

Matthew 15:39
I think it strikes anyone who sees this film is that, yes, it was jazz, or whatever he wants to call it. I mean, when you do watch archives of him, and we can talk more about that in a little bit, it's sometimes hard to know what to take serious sometimes, when he's talking. So he says, Well, I don't call it jazz or whatever. But whatever you call the music, it could have been anything. He could have been an amazing classical musician. He could have done anything, really. And he did do so many different things. So the film's called The Birth of the Cool. What do we mean by the cool?

Stanley Nelson 16:22
Oh, yeah, that was the title of one of Miles's first albums - Cool. That he did with Gil Evans, the famous composer who he worked with time and again throughout his career. And, you know, I just thought that that was a great title. And you know, that Miles was the coolest person on earth, you know. They used to have that commercial, you know, forgot about, the coolest guy on Earth. Miles was the coolest guy on Earth, you know, I mean, you have to see the film. But, you know, not only was he a great jazz musician, but he drove, Ferraris and Maserati, went out with the most beautiful women in the world. You know, Francis Davis, his first wife, longtime lover, is in the film. And she's just, I mean, you have to see the film to understand what I'm saying. But, you know, Francis is just like a trip. I mean, she's like, something from Central Casting, she was a beautiful, beautiful dancer and Miles wife. I mean, he had it all, you know. He had the tailored suits from the early 50s, you know, the pictures of Miles, you know, at the tailor getting this tailored suits made. He wanted the best of everything. And he was just really cool. The other thing that we talked about in the film that, you know, I'm so proud that we were able to talk about this is, you know, Miles was a really dark skinned African American, you know. And at the time where, you know, if you had dark skin, you were not cool, you were not handsome. But Miles threw that all away because, you know, as someone said to me, Miles was the handsomest guy he had ever been exposed to. Miles was just pretty, especially in the early days, you know. And he was not only pretty, but he's living the life and he's making the life for himself by playing the trumpet, you know, for a few hours every night. So, Miles was just a really interesting guy. So, I just thought that the main voice of the cool, in some ways, lead you into Miles's story.

Matthew 18:44
I don't think there are too many people whose silhouette is iconic, you know, you could probably name those on one hand. And, you know, I think you see that on the album covers, whatever, it's just his silhouette, immediately it's Miles Davis, playing the trumpet.

Stanley Nelson 18:57
It's incredible. But also, I mean, the way he dressed. And we have literally 1000s of pictures, thousands. Because, you know, we had access to the Sony archives, Columbia, it's now Sony Columbia archives. You know, photographers, individual photographers who took hundreds of pictures of Miles, thousands of pictures. Miles was never not dresed. Not in one was he not dressed. Not in one. I mean, everything is like, Whoa, it's just, and not dressed in any way where it's like formal or, you know, looks like someoene dressed you. You know what I mean? Like someone told you to wear this. No, he just, he just liked to look like that, you know, and Miles could wear you know, a black suit and a white shirt and a scarf tied around his neck. He just was, you know, something else.

Matthew 20:03
Yet, who was Miles Davis the man? Because like a lot of great artists, like many of us really, I'm not saying I am but I mean, he was complicated. He was a complex individual, wasn't he?

Stanley Nelson 20:17
Yeah and that's what really made this film exciting, you know is that Miles was so complex. He wasn't, you know, like some musicians, I am not going to name, you know, great musicians, great jazz musicians, but they're kind of one dimensional. Miles was just an amazing individual. You know, in that he made some of the most beautiful music ever. You know, the tender Miles Davis makes you want to cry. I mean, it's like, you know, it's probably the sequence that I'm the most proud of, you know, all 14 years or whatever, I've been making films, but when we talk about Miles's balance, and, you know, great affinity that he had for balance. And, you know, one woman says, I want to feel like Miles sound.

Matthew 21:20
Yeah, exactly. And then, one thing I wasn't aware of is that, what is it the Louis Malle film that he did the score for. It's absolutely amazing that seeing you have archives of him, just complete, you know, ad libbing, just by watching the film. And that's what they went with.

Stanley Nelson 21:42
So, you know, Miles goes to France, I think in 1957 or 58. And, you know, he just has a bunch of gigs and Louis Malle, I think it might have been Miles first film with a famous director. And he asks Miles to do the soundtrack of film that's in English called Elevator to the Gallows, and you can still actually get it and watch it. And Miles goes in, and he puts the, you know, puts the film up on the screen and Miles plays directly to the film, you know, and without writing anything, just kind of some sketches. And, you know, it's become one of the most famous jazz soundtracks in film. But it's so wonderful because they actually filmed with Miles playing. So you actually see, the screen, you know, in the background, and you see the scene that explained to the actual film, go back to Miles playing, you know, it's just beautiful seeing that. Now, again, soundtrack was incredible.

Matthew 22:55
I think we're gonna take a little early break here for our listeners, and then we'll be right back with Stanley Nelson.

Factual America midroll 23:05
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list, or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter at Alamo pictures to keep up to date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.

Matthew 23:24
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Stanley Nelson, award winning director and producer of Miles Davis: Birth of the Cool. So Stanley, how did this project come about? I mean, besides someone thinking maybe Miles Davis would be a good person to have a doc about?

Stanley Nelson 23:43
Yeah, it has kind of an interesting gestation period. So, I don't know, about 15 years ago, I thought about doing the project. I actually kind of proposed that to a TV show in the United States called American Masters, that profiles artists. And they said, okay, and we went and talk to the family who controls Miles's estate. And they said, yeah, I was introduced to them, I met them. And they said yeah. And then for whatever reasons, you know, the film kind of fell apart. But I kind of stayed in loose contact with the family and really, my wife, Marsha, who's my partner kept saying to me, oh, you know, what about the Miles film? You know you want to do the Miles film. Come on, what about the Miles film? And, I don't know, maybe four or five years ago, four years ago, I guess now, I finally said okay, okay. I'm gonna call American Masters. And they said, you know, that they were actually on the phone the week before with Eagle Rock entertainment out of London and that they wanted to do Miles, and, you know, American Masters wanted to do Miles. They would each put in half of the money and let's go. And so I called the family and they said, yeah, we're still down, you know, you can direct. And that's how the project got started.

Matthew 25:16
And then, how do you go about making a doc about a legend like Miles Davis? I mean, that's got to be a challenge.

Stanley Nelson 25:23
First thing you have to do is make yourself so you're not scared. I'm going to do the best I possibly can, you know, and let the chips fall where they may. You know, again, I'm a huge Miles fan. And I understand his importance. One of the first things that I did was approached the editor, Lewis Erskine, who I had made a couple of films with early on, The Murder of Emmett Till and Freedom Riders and some other films. I love Lewis, and we hadn't worked together for a few years. And, you know, he loves jazz, and he's kind of a real artist. And so I approached him, and he said that he would love to do it. And, you know, we just got started, I think that, you know, one of the things we had to do, it was, you know, make certain assumptions, you know, stayed certain, we can't include every album of Miles Davis. That was 40 years of music. So, you know, some people are gonna say, oh, why didn't you include this album? Or Why didn't you include this song? And we'll just let chips fall where they may, because that's gonna be. And then you know, we thought really hard about how you kind of transform music onto film. I mean, that's, you know, so hard about that. And we really wanted to include a lot of music, you know. Because I watched a bunch of, you know, documentaries, music documentaries, and sometimes, you know, they're talking about somebody for an hour and a half, two hours, and you still have no idea what the person sounds like. So we wanted to use a lot of music, I think we get like 62 different cuts or something. A lot of music. And, you know, we just kind of, bit the bullet and went for it. But I also think that because, you know, listen, I love Miles so much that we felt that we have, you know, Miles on our shoulder, you know, like saying Don't mess this up, you know? So, you know, we try to put everything, everything, everything that we have, you know, as filmmakersinto making of this film.

Matthew 28:04
I think that's funny, because I had written down here too. What would Miles say about this? Because I mean, even getting ready for this, I wasn't even thinking about, you know, I was obviously thinking about having you on but I kept, the part of me just kept thinking, because I don't know if it's in your film or something else I watched where Miles is just basically telling the interviewer to stop being silly and get straight to the point and ask questions better and stuff like that. I mean, that's the kind of guy he was and you know, that's, to have that, that voice, that very iconic voice in your ear the whole time? And then did you feel pressure to try to outcool Miles Davis? I mean, that's got a you know, because it's gonna be hard to please a lot of people with this film. Because they're all going to have their own different kinds of expectations.

Stanley Nelson 28:54
Well, you know, I mean you can't outcool Miles, you know, really I didn't try to outcool Miles. And I think that one of the things that we said, you know, to Miles's family and Miles's estate is that you know, I have to make a film warts and all. You know, some of the things, you know, the things about Miles, the negative things, drug use and other things, have already been stated and have already been known. So, you know, you can't avoid that. So that's part of Miles. And that's part of what we, we went into the film knowing that we were gonna, that we're gonna put it into the film you know. One of the best compliments I had, when we were first viewing together the film with Miles's family is they said, you know, hey, Miles would love this film. That's all you need to say. You know, what could be better than that.

Matthew 30:01
I think that's amazing. That's excellent. I mean, how did you decide, you know, there's various ways you could tell this story. I forget the name of the actor you use, he does the voiceover and all. I mean that's interesting. You use all, everything, all the voiceover is completely Miles's words, aren't they?

Stanley Nelson 30:22
Yeah. So Carl Lumbly personifies Miles. And we use lots of quotes from his autobiography and other statements, to have Miles be the narrator of his own life. And Miles, for those who don't know, he had that very distinctive voice, because of a throat operation early on in the middle 50s. And the doctor told him that he couldn't talk, you know, like, a month, don't talk, just, you know. And Miles gotten mad at somebody and cursed him out. And so the rest of his life, he talked like this (changes voice), you know, and, so that Carl Lumbly does hit the Miles kind of narration for Miles own words, you know, in that voice, in Miles's voice. But also, what was incredible was that every time, people who knew Miles or knew stories of Miles, they went into the voice naturally. Like the first three or four people that we interviewed, they said Miles once told me (changes voice) you know, you got to play with more soul. That was what they did. And so, you know, then we started saying, Well, if you quote Miles, you should use his voice, because, one person didn't, and it sounded really weird, because everybody else did. I don't know, i'd say a running joke. But yeah, it's kind of a running joke in the film, because everybody says, you know, everyone hates when they quote Miles. And, you know, Miles was quotable. He cursed after every word, you know, and he just, you know, just, it was a fountain of quotes, you know, so there's a lot of that.

Matthew 32:23
I think even, that's one thing I noticed as well, and I think it's, it is a bit of a, you know, it is a running joke. I liked it, the fact that everyone had their own Miles impression, including his ex wife, which brings me to these, you've already raised, the amazing array of subjects and interviews that you have on this film. And, you know, sadly, or maybe, you know, they were all getting up in age, many have passed just even since the film was released. But thank goodness, you got them all on camera. But I found, you know, so we're talking about Francis Taylor, Juliette Greco. I noticed Jimmy Cobb and Jimmy Heath have both passed away, I think. But the interviews with Francis Taylor and Juliet Greco, those were so poignant. Especially I think, Francis Taylor, I mean, I was just amazed by her. What was that like, interviewing her?

Stanley Nelson 33:31
You know, before we did the interview, I'm in New Yorker and she was in LA, I was speaking with somebody. And they said, you know, you're gonna like Francis, she's got jokes, you know. I wasn't sure what he meant. But, you know, interviewing her, I mean the only thing that you can say is that she's a trip. I mean, she was just a trip. And, you know, she's really smart. And she's really funny. And, you know, it's like, did she just say that? You know, like, so she says this thing about when she first meets Miles and Miles, asked her out, and she says, you know, like, Nah, I didn't know anything about jazz. I didn't know anything about Miles Davis, what I knew was Johnny Mathis. You know, she says it so seriously. And she's, you know, she's just kidding with you and joking with you all the time. You know, I can say that it's something, I think, that also has to do with her being so incredibly beautiful. You know, I mean, if you don't know, look up Someday my prince will come. She's the one that's on the cover of the album. Just look up the album Someday my prince will come. It's a picture of her. I remember staring at my father's album, when I was like nine years old. And I didn't know why. I was just looking at it, because she's like, incredibly, incredibly beautiful, and, you know, just funny and smart. And at first when we did the interview, you know, we really didn't know how to handle it, because we had it cut up in different places in the film. And you know, finally, one day I just went into the Edit room, I said, you know, let's put all the Francis stuff together. Let's just let Francis go, you know, like, let's just get hands of the horse and just let it go. Because, you know, every time if you would cut to her, you know, then cut to another story, she would like steal the show. And so we just had to kind of, like, let her, let Francis be Francis. You know, she's one of those things that, you know, when you're making a documentary film, you just kind of, you get into the Edit room, like, Oh, my God, I realized that it was a nice interview.

Matthew 36:26
I loved, I think she says, I had the best legs in Hollywood, or something and she goes - and I still do, or something like that. It's like and she's in her 80s, it's a very, you know, it's extremely, credit to you, I mean, you're the director, and you're acclaimed and award winning, but I think it does work so well, keeping that all together. Because it is a very poignant interview, because you can see, even all these years on, the love and also the anguish, that was the nature of her relationships, as well with Miles and pointing again to this complex, you said warts and all character that was Miles Davis, so...

Stanley Nelson 37:13
You know, that Miles, you know, had abusive relationships with women, you know. And, you know, we don't shy away from that, we talk about that. And, you know, Miles even talks about it later in his life. Francis, certainly, talks about it, you know, Miles's striking her, you know, so. But again, I think that, you know, as you say, the love comes through when Francis, you know, as she says in the end, you know, I still love, you know, the other women that Miles, you know, was associated with, that we interviewed in the film. You know, Miles is a unique individual. I can't, I mean, certainly, if you have an affair with him or, you know, like sleeping with him for nine years, I think, (incomprehensible) many ways.

Matthew 38:16
You've got, well, you've got this amazing catalogue of work. And one strain is, I would say, is documenting black men in the limelight, that's maybe a poor way of putting it, but Miles Davis, you did the ESPN 30 for 30 with Michael Vick. You did the Black Panthers: Vanguard of the Revolution. I mean, are there lessons we can draw from, you know, what Miles Davis went through as being this persona, as a black man who is also this cultural icon?

Stanley Nelson 38:53
I think that, you know, as we made the film, there's something that started to emerge and that we have in the final cut. That it's really not only the story of Miles Davis, but it's the story of African Americans, especially African American men, you know, in the mid 20th century, you know, the times that Miles lived through. And so there's a lot about Miles that's obviously unique, but there's a lot about Miles that obviously connects to all humans, but also, you know, also all African Americans, all African American men. I think one of the running pieces in the film was that, and many people don't know, Miles was born in East St. Louis, Illinois, and his father was the second richest black man in Illinois. You know, he was, Miles had, they had a house in East St. Louis, but also a farm outside and Miles had horses all his life, you know. And Miles grew up in a very, very, very upper middle class. But still he grew up in America at that time, he was born in 1926. You know, and also, in East St. Louis that was in the South, you know. And Miles, saw that being rich, you know, couldn't protect him. That being, you know, a great celebrated jazz musician could not protect him. There's an amazing scene where, you know, Kind of Blue, again, the most popular jazz album ever, has just come out, he's the talk of the town. And he's playing in a club downtown in New York. And he goes out to smoke a cigarette, and the cop tells him like, you know, move on. And Miles says, you know, it's my name up on the marquee. Right? I'm smoking a cigarette, why do I have to move on? And he takes a beating, you know, from the cops, the cops are jumping and beating him with their nightsticks. People run out of the club, and luckily, you know, there's people who take pictures of him, so it's like, a really well documented scene. Jimmy Cobb, who's in the film, is there. Francis runs down, you know. They actually arrest Miles. He's all bloody and he is wearing a white jacket, there's blood all over him. And, you know, that no amount of fame or prestige could protect him from the racism of America. And Miles internalized it, you know. And so, you know, it's really interesting to me, because, different people might have internalized it in different ways, right. I might have internalized it, like, you know, what the heck, you know, there's some bad people, you know. But Miles internalized it and, you know, it meant to him that he can never escape, you know, like, what can I do, to kind of escape the racism of the United States?

Matthew 42:04
Do you think that drove some of the drug abuse and problems he had with substances?

Stanley Nelson 42:10
I'm sure it draw for everything, you know. He actually says that, you know, earlier on in 1949, he goes to Paris for the first time. He falls in love with Julia Greco, he just plays gigs in Paris, he is the toast of the town. And, you know, he sees a different world, he sees a different world where the overt racism of white folks in the United States is not there. He is celebrated by that, you know, the artistic society of Paris. Julia begs him to stay, he leaves and becomes very, really depressed. And he says, it's on account of coming back to the United States. And the same thing that was there, was there when he left, you know. And so many African Americans, in that period and still, you know, are kind of facing that and moved to Europe, and moved to Europe, because, you know... Look, there's racism everywhere, there's racism there, but it's different, another kind of thing. You know, Kenny Clarke, the drummer that was with him stays. He stays in Paris. So Miles says that and, he says that, he really becomes bitter. And he cycles down into kind of a worse heroin habit that again, really, you know, hits rock bottom.

Matthew 43:40
I think, you know, the one thing that your film reminded me of as well, is a film that we've had discussed on the podcast is I Am Not Your Negro about James Baldwin. And it's similar in that we get an actor, they do the voiceover, it's all in James Baldwin's words as well. And it was, again, someone who moved to France and stayed. And what do you, I mean, you do talk about it in the film. And I know, it's discussed in other ways, but what did Miles Davis mean to the African American community?

Stanley Nelson 44:19
I think, you know, as he gained more and more popularity, so like in 50s, you know, we talk about him as being an icon to the African American communities. Taking in too many talks about the fact that you could just walk around carrying a Miles Davis outfit, you know, that made you hip. He becomes, you know, I mean, he becomes a standard of excellence, he becomes a black man, as someone says, who doesn't take any shit, you know. He becomes a black man who demands excellence, not only in his art but also in his life. So, you know, he's wearing tailor made suits, he was driving Maseratis. He's creating some of the greatest music, you know, of the 20th century, at the time when the civil rights movement is just kicking off. So Miles meant a lot to the black community that, you know, he demanded excellence and, you know, it's hard for people who weren't around then to understand, but you know, black people in the US weren't supposed to demand excellence. They weren't supposed to get excellence. Right? They were supposed to sit on the back of the bus, right? You're supposed to go to the back of the restaurant, you're supposed to get the crappy hotels, you're supposed to, you know, you had to buy clothes where you couldn't try on clothes. In many places, you could not try but we had to buy ill fitting clothes. You know, you couldn't return it. Oh, it touched your black skin. No, you can't. So, you know, Miles demanded excellence. And he demanded excellence in everything. He also, he demanded excellence in his gigs, you know. So Miles would, you know, they would tell, Miles and his group oh, you don't play another set? He would say pay me, again. You want me to play another set, you have to pay me. Right? We had a great story in the film that we didn't use, where, you know, Archie Shepp, jazz saxophonist, he's going to Europe to play in a festival and Miles's band is also on the plane. And Miles's band is in first class. And Archie's like, you know, he goes to the promoters and says, like, what the hell, you know, why am I not in first class? Right? And Miles, you know, says to him (changes voice) put it in the contract. He had it in the contract and he and his band had to travel first class. He changed the standards for all jazz musicians.

Matthew 47:16
It reminds me, probably somewhere I guess it was almost exact the same age would have been, we've had someone who did the Chuck Berry documentary that's come out recently. He also is St. Louis product and in some ways reminded me of, similarly it was stories about how he would only get paid, different, but he'd only get paid in cash, upfront, in a paper bag, you know, that kind of stuff. And, you know, relate some funny stories too. I think he was here on a concert in the UK, and they were gonna pay again, give him a bag full of pound sterling, and he wouldn't take it. He said no, it has to be US dollars. And so they had to spend a good day just running around town trying to find 10,000 US dollars that they could convert and then put in a bag so he could still come on the show.

Stanley Nelson 48:10
A lot of them don't understand what you know, musicians went through and probably still go through. That you're playing in a club and the owner says, well, I'll pay you at the end of the night, you know, after I get the money from the door. And then, you know, you go to get your pay afterwards. And he comes with a couple of thugs, bodyguards, you know and he says, I'm gonna pay you half, because we only made half the money. He's like I'm paying you half, you know, keeping these guys standing there with nightsticks and guns, you know. That's what musicians, you know, always had to work through. So, you know, musicians learn. You know, you got cash before, definitely you got paid before you hit the stage. Because once I hit the stage, I know, you're not gonna pay me.

Matthew 49:07
I mean, just before that we were talking about that incident in front of the, I think was Berlin, but the incident with the police and what he meant for the African American community. I mean, in this year of sort of Black Lives Matter, and you as a documentarian and historian if, as well, I would say, well, what do you make of a year like this or what do you think Miles would think of what's going on in the world.

Stanley Nelson 49:36
Happy new year. Just get the hell out of this year. You know, I mean, some good has come of the year. Some good has come with, you know, with the murder of George Floyd, with Black Lives Matter. I think that, you know, for some white folks, they had to, you know, really look at where we are, where have they been. And, you know, I think that ultimately, that battle continues. And that's not just kind of passing things. You know, I also think that it's very discouraging and troubling when 72 million people vote for Donald Trump, you know. And it seems like this country is so, so divided. And that, you know, the complete and utter failure of his presidency, and over 200,000 people that had been killed when he was, when the presidential vote came in, you know, still didn't stop, over 7 million people can vote. You know, I think that there are some reasons to be encouraged, but there were many reasons to be discouraged. And, you know, the COVID, this little rampage in the United States, and certain people who are saying that it's a hoax.

Matthew 50:01
I know our time's coming to an end, unfortunately. But if I may, I just have a couple more things I want to ask you. If that's okay, if you've got a couple more minutes. You're our first winner of a National Humanities Medal to come on the show. What was that like? And you got to go to the White House and it was presented by President Barack Obama, that must have been quite a thrill.

Stanley Nelson 51:57
Yeah, that was great. I mean, you know, they make it a great day for you and your family, they say you can invite how many family members you want. You know, my wife and three kids came, you get the award, and they have a big, you know, kind of huge buffet. I mean, like, huge, and Marine band playing. And, you know, it was funny, because we do have certain thing like the Marine Band that is made up of the best musicians in the Marines, and they can play anything. They played hip hop, they played jazz, they played everything, they're incredible. And, you know, you kind of roam around in the White House and spend, you know, a few hours there. You know, this is once in a lifetime thing. So it was very, it was very wonderful. It just made it even more wonderful that Barack Obama was there.

Matthew 53:02
Yes, I think, well, what's next for you? I don't imagine you have any plans to retire anytime soon. So do you have any projects you can tell us about that are upcoming?

Stanley Nelson 53:16
I have a film on the crack era in the United States called Crack. And it actually just was announced a few days ago, and it'll be on Netflix on January 11. They just realesed the trailer, so you can see the trailer for this movie Crack. I'm really excited about that. I'm working on a film, The Attica Rebellion, which will have the 60th anniversary in 2021. So, it will be out in the Fall. I'm working on a bunch of other things. It's kind of what we do. But also I should say that, my company Firelight is known as the production, but Firelight Media works with artists of color. It's in its 10th year doing documentary lab, mentoring filmmakers of color. Lots of filmmakers, won multiple awards at Sundance, and more. They are doing incredible work, incredibly proud of the work that we're doing in the Firelight Media.

Matthew 54:44
And with Firelight Media, I did come across that, and I think it's amazing stuff you're doing. What's one piece of advice you would give to aspiring young documentarians?

Stanley Nelson 54:57
I would say, you know, make sure that you really want to do it, and that you love documentaries. Because, you know, a lot of times you think about being on a podcast, or winning awards at Sundance, and that's, you know, a very slim part of my life, the real part is when you do films. But really concrete advice I would say is, you know, see a lot of documentaries, see almost anything, you know, just see films. And then learn how to use the equipment. You know, learn how to do camera. You know, we had a guy who came to us on Miles, actually, and he was a student at NYU, not a graduate he was undergrad. And he was kind of focused on editing and he came as an intern, an editing intern. Then the assistant editor got pregnant. So that he became the assistant editor. And then he received co-editing credit on Miles, then he was one of the editors on Vick, you know, as an editor, you know, that's all in like two years or something. But the thing is that he knew how to edit, he knew how, technically, to use the editing program. He was on his way. I mean, he's, you know, now paying his rent, buying his groceries from editing films.

Matthew 56:36
Excellent stuff. And I think you, that can be said about most professions, but just having a passion and make sure this is something you enjoy doing. I think, even as my children get to an age where they're starting to make those decisions, that's, I think that's the best bit of advice we can give to the up and coming generations.

Stanley Nelson 56:59
When you love something, you have much better chance of being good at it.

Matthew 57:02
Yeah, exactly. I mean, can you imagine doing something you don't like doing. Because a third of your life, or your adult life is gonna be spent, at least, doing that thing? And if it's something you don't like doing, that's a, that's a long time. Well, one last thing. Do you think this is a golden age of documentary filmmaking? That's, you know, we keep hearing about this. Would that be your impression?

Stanley Nelson 57:29
It is the Golden Age of documentary filmmaking for some people. For people who have established and, you know, have reached a certain height. I think that I'm being poached and looked at in a very different way than I was 10 or 20 years ago, but filmmakers that come to the lab, you know, who've done one film, and it can be an award winning film, usually they're not being chased by the cable channels and streamers. So that for a few filmmakers, that are making films for years, there are many films under their belt, you know, they're, because now, documentary film is much more business. And so, you know, Hulu, Netflix, Showtime, HBO, ESPN, anybody wants to limit their risk. And so why don't limit their risk by handling veteran filmmakers, like old filmmakers, like me, they know that I won't, you know, run off to Borneo with the money without making the film. But anyway, so, I think that it's a golden age for some people. I think that for the majority of documentary filmmakers, they're still struggling, in some ways not that much is changed.

Matthew 59:02
I think that's very interesting. I think it's a very good point. Well, Stanley Nelson, I just want to thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. It's been an honor and a privilege to chat with you. To remind our listeners, Stanley is the director and producer of well, so many films, but the main one we've been talking about is Miles Davis: Birth of the Cool. If you're a bit unfamiliar with Miles Davis, go pick up a copy or get on any of this, you know, Spotify or any of these things and look up Kind of Blue, and then watch this film. Because I think you'll, I think it quite well sums up and gives you an idea for who Miles Davis was and the life he lived. I want to give a shout out to This Is Distorted Studios here in Leeds, England, and ask our, well besides thanking our great listeners, but do remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America signing off.

Factual America Outro 1:00:08
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo pictures specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the shownotes for more information about today's episode, our guests and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at Alamo pictures, be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk

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Miles Davis: The Coolest Music Innovator of the 20th Century

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