Murder Among the Mormons: The Mark Hofmann Story

Murder Among the Mormons (2021) is the new Netflix true-crime docuseries about Mark Hofmann, who is one of the most notable forgers in history. Hofmann created forgeries related to the Latter Day Saint movement, which led to fame and fortune. But the truth caught up with Hofmann one fateful day in 1985, as two innocent people lost their lives. 

We are joined by award-winning co-director and producer of Murder Among the Mormons, Tyler Measom. His previous work includes Leaving the Cult: Sons of Perdition (2010), An Honest Liar (2014) and Biography: I Want My MTV (2019). 

Tyler directed this docuseries with Jared Hess, who is best known for his films Napoleon Dynamite (2004), Nacho Libre (2006) and Gentlemen Broncos (2009).

Tyler talks about how he and Jared came to turn this story into a docuseries, as well as what they discovered about Mark Hoffman and the nature of belief. In the process we also learn about getting a film idea to the big screen.

 “The power he must have felt to create and change history, to alter what millions of people believe, and know and pray to every day – to have the power to change that in your basement is a remarkable feeling I suspect.” – Tyler Measom

Time Stamps:

05:38 - What the series Murder Among the Mormons is about.
08:19 - Why the story wasn’t heavily publicised at the time.
09:41 - How co-directors Tyler and Jared made the story so gripping.
11:20 - The boom period there was for collecting Mormon antiquities. 
13:04 - How Mark Hofmann was such a successful forger. 
16:02 - How Hofmann started his career in forging. 
20:56 - Why he went into a life of deceit.
25:33 - Why Tyler and Jared decided to make a documentary about Hofmann. 
30:42 - How a documentary goes from a brainstorming session to being on screen. 
36:36 - The way a docuseries format gives the filmmakers more freedom. 
37:49 - The willingness of people to be interviewed for the film. 
41:45 - How they knew the film would be so successful. 
45:59 - The reasons Mark conned Mormons. 
49:01 - How Tyler kept his own beliefs regarding Mormonism separate from the film. 
50:24 - What the film says about belief. 
51:36 - The next projects Tyler is working on.  

Resources:

Murder Among the Mormons (2021)
Leaving the Cult: Sons of Perdition, a book by Tyler Measom
Billy Wilder’s 10 Screenwriting Tips
This is Distorted
Alamo Pictures

Connect with Tyler Measom:

Website
LinkedIn
Instagram
Facebook

More From Factual America:

Moment of Truth: The Murder of Michael Jordan's Father
McMillion$: McDonalds' Monopoly Fraud Revisited
They're Trying to Kill Us: Diet, Poverty and Racism
The Hart Family Tragedy
7 New Netflix Biopics to Look out for in 2023
How to Pitch a Documentary to Netflix Buyers
25 Best True Crime Documentaries
The 10 Best Cult Documentaries
16 Best Documentaries About Serial Killers
Air Jordan: A Cultural Phenomenon
Liberated: The New Sexual Revolution (2017)
18 Most Insightful Documentaries About Religion
10 Award-Winning Documentaries About Star Wars
13 Captivating Documentaries About Jesus
15 Intense Documentaries About Scams and Fraud
How to Pitch a Documentary to Channel 4
How to Pitch a Documentary to the BBC
6 Best Nature Documentary Series to Binge Watch
Documentary Michael Jordan: Unveiling the Legend's Journey in Last Dance
New Mexico Film Industry Tax Incentives: A Comprehensive Guide for Filmmakers
How to Pitch a Documentary to Amazon
Best Reality TV Shows Of All Time
Documentary Paradise Lost: The Child Murders at Robin Hood Hills - Unveiling the Truth
Best Documentaries About Islam: Exploring the Faith with Clarity and Insight

Transcript for Factual America Episode 55 - Murder Among the Mormons: The Mark Hofmann Story

Speaker 1 00:09
The only way to keep a secret between two people is to kill one of 'em. It's kind of true.

Speaker 2 00:18
The State of Utah has long been the home of the Mormons.

Speaker 3 00:22
I love the gospel with all my heart.

Speaker 4 00:25
They are driven by history, and they want to preserve documents.

Speaker 5 00:32
Mark Hofmann found document after document.

Speaker 6 00:35
First editions, history, Americana. Worth $1.5 million.

Speaker 1 00:41
He was a rock star.

00:48
Religion sometimes breeds amongst people some extremes.

Speaker 7 00:53
The first explosion ripped through a downtown office building, killing one man. The second explosion outside of a Holladay home claimed another life.

01:02
Panic began to ensue because two bombs suggests a serial killer.

01:07
Then the shock came.

Speaker 10 01:10
There are very expensive documents in the automobile.

01:16
This is an original?

Speaker 1 01:17
Yes, this is the original copy.

01:19
The Salamander letter gave a far different story of the Church's roots.

Speaker 9 01:23
Instead of God and angels now it's salamanders and magic.

Speaker 1 01:27
This material was potentially devastating.

Speaker 8 01:32
People who wanted to protect the Church didn't want this document to come to life.

Speaker 6 01:40
There's speculation the Church was trying to acquire it in order to suppress it.

Speaker 12 01:44
Everyone's a suspect.

Speaker 11 01:47
What do you think about lying for the Lord?

Speaker 4 01:52
It just started snowballing.

Speaker 12 01:56
Machine Guns. Bombs. We all should have suspected.

Speaker 1 02:04
Secrets just can't be kept.

Intro 02:13
That is a trailer from the Netflix docu-series Murder Among the Mormons. And this is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo pictures, a London and Austin based production company making documentaries about America for international audiences. I'm your host Matthew Sherwood. Today we're talking about the huge Netflix docu-series, Murder Among the Mormons. Bringing the extraordinary story of Mark Hofmann to the big or bigger screen is award winning producer and director Tyler Measom. Tyler, welcome to Factual America. How are you doing?

Tyler Measom 02:47
I'm well, thank you for having me. Good morning, evening, afternoon, middle of the night, whenever anyone's listening.

Matthew 02:54
All the above. Yes. You know, we don't know when they'll be listening. And we're a global podcast. So it could, it's going to be all the above, I think. Again, as we saw and have heard in the trailer, Murder Among the Mormons, it's on Netflix, in case anyone doesn't know this yet. And congratulations, what a big hit. I know it's been, I believe it got up to number one here in the UK, plateaued at number two in the US. But even the New York Times still has it on its top five Netflix doc list. Noel Murray at The New York Times says "this is an unusual true-crime docu-series concerning not just some illegal acts, but also the foundations of religious belief." So, congratulations.

Tyler Measom 03:42
Thanks. Thanks. who's looking at the numbers on Netflix? I don't look. That's for sure. I never, I never glanced at it. Not once.

Matthew 03:52
Not once. Not, didn't call up any of your friends say, look, you just got to get on today because that might just push us up.

Tyler Measom 03:59
Yeah, we peaked to two, which is, you know, nice. Would have been nice to hold the title, the championship belt for just a little bit. The cup over my head, if you will. But two, we're pretty good with two.

Intro 04:12
Okay, well and it's got staying power. Because this has came out a few weeks ago. And it's still, like I said, New York Times, others are still saying if you haven't, I don't know, you've been living under a rock, or you just haven't gotten around to it, it's definitely one worth watching. So it's staying up there for sure.

Tyler Measom 04:31
It's a strange place to be when you premiere a film on Netflix. And you know, my previous films were basically, we make the film and then it plays at a festival and then another film festival and then travel. Then at some point someone had put it on TV and then you put it on Netflix. This is just like - it's on Netflix, which is, you know, where everyone wants to be anyways. And they push the hell out of it and then the whole world gets to see it. And then Netflix is a machine and a week later, there's a new toy. And everyone's playing with that new toy. And I mean, at this point, at some point, our film just becomes a used VHS, the back of the Blockbuster Video, right? Deep in the caverns of Netflix's algorithm. But for now, my fair skin is basking in the glory.

Matthew 05:19
Well, long may last, or last as long as it can. Okay, it's fairly, you know, at this stage now, pretty good assumption that many people have seen this, but maybe tell our listeners what this series is about, for those who haven't had a chance to watch it.

Tyler Measom 05:38
Sure. And I will say for those who haven't seen the series, if you're listening to this podcast, I think you will enjoy both the podcast and the series, if you watch the series before listening to this podcast. So if you haven't watched it, go ahead and go, we'll wait for what three, that's two and a half, three episodes, two by three hours. So go ahead. And we'll just wait here. I guess I can tell you some jokes.

Matthew 06:01
Yeah, we've smoke them if you got them. Do people even do that anymore? I don't know.

Tyler Measom 06:06
Or we can pause it, I suppose. Okay. The documentary series Murder Among the Mormons is essentially about a series of bombings that occurred in Salt Lake City, Utah in the mid 80s. And these bombs targeted two individuals who picked up packages outside of their office and home and killed these two individuals. And then it's set forth this massive investigation. The next day, a bomb exploded in a car and it injured a man by the name of Mark Hofmann. And Mark Hofmann was a dealer in antiquities, most specifically in Mormon antiquities. So it's set forth his investigation to try and find out who planted these bombs. But it also deals with this person. And I'm just going to, spoiler alert right now, Mark Hofmann was a massive and unbelievable forger of documents. And his intent in many ways was to forge these documents to sell to the Mormon Church, or, as they prefer to be called right now, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which I don't have the time for. So I'm just gonna say Mormons because it's easier, and it just has a nice alliteration. And he tried to sell these documents to the Mormon Church and basically was successful, and got a little behind and planted some bombs and killed two people. And that's not the best elevator pitch I've given, but there you go.

Matthew 07:14
We'll talk, we'll get to this equivalent, the documentaries equivalent to an elevator pitch in a little bit here. But one thing that I wanted to ask you is, so I'm of a certain age, I would have been in high school when this happened. My wife also is from the states, we live in the UK now. But I was a little surprised. I mean, this you know, I would have been watching national news then, it just, the story seems so little known in a way yet it was big news at the time. And, you know, I think I've even seen referenced the fact that you did, you're from the area, you would have been much younger, but you don't, it wasn't like a story that loomed large in your upbringing or anything?

Tyler Measom 07:39
No, you know, I live in Salt Lake City now. And I was raised outside of Salt Lake as a child. But it was always the story that was kind of in the myth, the mythology of Utah and the Mormon faith. However, I do think A) most people don't know, even in the state of Utah, I was surprised how many people knew very, very little about it. And I think part of that is like, I mean, we don't remember what happened last week, for the most part or care, Trump will tweet something and we forget everything else that happened. And thank God, he doesn't do that anymore. But, um, and also, I think a lot of people were embarrassed about what happened and how they were fooled. And the Mormon Church being one of them. So I think they tried to kind of keep this under the rug. What that did allow us as filmmakers, was to be able to tell the story as it happened, and to kind of keep secrets to not reveal that Mark was the criminal and Mark was a forger. We tried to kind of dole that out throughout three episodes. I was gonna ask you about that later. But, I mean, you are, in essence, you're storytellers. So that was, you know, you're thinking, you know, eventually you decide it's three episodes, and we're going to slowly pull the curtain back. Is that how you approach it. In many of my stories, I think the essence of good storytelling is how long can you keep a secret? How long can I sustain the suspense to an audience before I absolutely have to tell them that piece of information in order to drive the story forward. Keep them on the edge of the seat, you know. And so that was one of the things we wanted to do, is just kind of keep these secrets as much as we could. And as long as we could until, at some point the audience goes, Oh, okay, it was, I get who it is. And it was enjoyable, it was really nice to be able to, kind of hide some things, if you will, and build up an individual only later to tear him down.

Intro 10:24
Well I guess, as you said, this does help us relive it as it happened. Because people would have been doing the exact same thing, who's doing this? Surely it's not this guy who blew up in the MR2, which I hadn't thought of, of MR 2 in many a year, but then we were, you know, on the screen.

Tyler Measom 10:44
Sweet ride. It's a sweet ride.

Matthew 10:47
Take me back to high school. But I think, you know, it is, because I think that's what you really get with this film. Oh, my goodness, the 80s never looked so old in my life, I think, having seen so much of this archive. But one thing you shed light on, that I was unaware of, was this whole dealing in antiquities. And certainly the early history of the Mormon Church. And that's really, seems to, is that really hitting a boom period, starting in the 80s.

Tyler Measom 11:20
There's always an interest in collecting antiquities. And there is a cutthroat industry in collecting these antiquities. And anytime you find yourself in a profession that is cutthroat and also dealing in millions, if not 10s, if not hundreds of millions of dollars, you're bound to find some nefarious individuals. The Mormon Church has something of a dictate, in many ways, to collect their history, albeit a very short history, cause they were founded in 1830. So they have a pretty rich, detailed history. And they're, not only the Church itself, but the members like to collect items. And the Church is, in many ways, it was kind of founded on finding treasure. I mean, we mentioned it in the film. Joseph Smith found gold plates, and he transcribed them, translated them into a Book of Mormon, treasure hunting. So this is the setting in which Mark Hofmann thrived. This is the ballpark in which he could play. It was this environment that loved history, and tried to cherish their history and also, in some ways, tried to hide some history, that may be something of a black eye to a major religion slash business.

Intro 12:37
Yeah. And also, there's this eagerness to find this history, maybe more easily fooled, I guess. But as the film sheds light as well, it's not just the Church that is fooled. I mean, you know, you've got these dealers in antiquities in New York who have nothing to do with the Church that are fooled by this fella. I mean, it's, it's quite amazing.

Tyler Measom 13:03
Mark was genius. He was a brilliant, brilliant forger. And he was the entire package, as far as forgery. He wouldn't just forge a signature which is common, you know, George Washington's signature's are dime a dozen. That's the most forged signature in the world. But he would forge entire letters and currency and, you know, documents and contracts and maps and poems. And he gets the paper, right, and the ink right and the writing style, correct. And the verbiage right. And if it was a letter, he would get the postage right. And the days, and the days of the postage and the price of the postage. And then he had this ability to create a narrative, a story, to invent the provenance or provenance. I've been told, I've been saying promenance for so long that a dealer corrected me, saying is provenance. the provenance of this document. And he created a story behind it. He weaved this web of how he found it, which will make it much more interesting. And then he'd have this aha shocks, look what I found kind of attitude. He didn't come off like a sleazy used car salesman. He had this like, Golly, I found this in a basement somewhere. And is it worth anything? And he had the whole package to sell this plus he was just able to keep a secret, you know? I mean, few of us have that ability to like, I think all of us innately would like to pull off a big caper in a big scheme. But the fact of the matter is, is most of us would not be able to not tell our buddies about the bank, the truck we just stole. And Mark was able to, for decades, just hide the secrets. And so he was the whole package as far as a forger. Conversely, he also made some really stupid ass mistakes. He was horrible with money. And then he, and that ultimately is his downfall. He just got behind. He spent money where he shouldn't have and kept promising documents to people that he couldn't, his forging hand couldn't keep up with his forked tongue, if you will.

Matthew 15:14
Almost created this one man Ponzi scheme in some ways, didn't he? I mean, one thing I was curious about, because I've definitely seen it. How did he, you know, I don't know what his background was, or education. But, you know, these documents are going into electron microscopes. They're being dated. And yes, they're definitely this the ink is 100 and something years old, the paper is at this stage... How did he manage this? Because he was just using these, you know, he had this little room in his house where he's just doing all the magic, if you will. And how did he, you know, some really bizarre, incredible things he figured out, you could do like to make a coin look older and things like that.

Tyler Measom 15:59
Right. And Mark, I mean, he didn't happen upon this. And he, there's no, you know, how to forge documents, one on one class in college, he learned this over decades and years and researched intently. And mostly, when he was 14 years old. And we show this in the film, he forged a coin. And he collected coins and he realized that some coins were more valuable than others. And he had an electroplating machine and he turned a nickel or a penny, he changed the C to a D, which made it much, much more valuable. And he sent it into the US Treasury and it was verified as genuine, thereby making it worth thousands of dollars. To a 14 year old kid, but I think moreover, look, when I was 14, I was telling my mom, I got a C instead of a D in English class, he was changing the mintmark from a C to a D. And I felt amazing if I got away with a lie. Mark fooled the bloody United States Treasury, you know, that's remarkable. And so I think he got that innate feeling of deception. I like this feeling of deceiving. And he had a need to continue it. He had a need to continue and get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. We touched briefly on some of the skills he had as a forger, but just one example of how he would create a forgery. I think the Oath of a Freeman is his Mona Lisa. If he hadn't to plant these bombs, that would be in the Smithsonian, it would be somewhere amazing. Most of his documents would. But he would find a paper. He knew, for example, the Oath of Freeman - we'll go through quickly because, can be me droning on about boring shit. But I'm not going to. The Oath of a Freeman was printed by a guy named Stephen Daye. It was a first printing press in the United States. It was brought over by a ship. The printing man, the owner of the printing press died, this individual just kind of took the printing press and started printing it. But he only brought over X amount of pieces of paper from England at the time. And so Mark had to find the paper that match that exactly. So he searched in libraries and libraries and libraries and found the exact paper in an old book in a BYU library had the same chain marks. And then he used that to, he made a printing press but he had to replicate the same printing letters, create a plate, grind it down, so it looked old enough. He knew the text of the Oath of a Freeman, but he didn't know, there was no copy of it in existance, so he's able to kind of create his own. And then what he would do is, he get old letters and old paper from that era, from that same era or before. And he burned it in a small kiln and he take the ashes and mix it with beeswax and distilled water and other ingredients that I can't remember, probably shouldn't tell because people are going to forge another Oath of a Freemen. And that's how he would create the ink. And then he'd roll it on this plate and put it down on the paper and there he had the Oath of a Freemen. So everything was correct. Then he would do small things. Like, we show on the film the electroplating, but he would do certain small things like, he put old documents between bags of wheat in the basement and, you know, little worms would crawl through and make holes in it. He would create water stains on documents. He forged an Emily Dickinson poem that fooled Emily Dickinson experts. And he used the handwriting of her and the paper that she would use. I mean, most of us can't even write a limerock that would fool anyone. He wrote an Emily Dickinson poem, so to be able to channel and what he did, I actually got a letter about how he did that. He told someone after he was in prison, that he read her poems for about an hour and found her muse, which is amazing as an artist to hear that. He found and borrowed Emily Dickinson's muse so that he could write a poem. But he wrote this poem and one thing he did is he wrote the poem in ink. But on the back of the paper, the back of the poem, the old paper, he wrote in pencil up at the top aunt Emily. And so what it did, is it created this story to those who found this poem, to Emily Dickinson experts and scholars would say, Oh, my God, who did she give this to? Did she give it to her cousin, her nephew? Why did they write on the back? Where was it? So it built this mystery. Those fine touches is what he would do, that just made him the full package as far as a forger.

Intro 20:33
So as and actually, this actually comes more towards almost the end of the series, when we go into all these details and have people talk about his genius. But what drove, you talked a little bit about what drives him, but you know, but this creative genius that he had, he could have had an amazing legitimate career. But what drives someone like that?

Tyler Measom 20:57
As storytellers, I think we always try and find, we always hope for an antagonist and a protagonist. And I think in today's modern storytelling, and non scripted included, there are flawed protagonists. Your hero doesn't need to be Clark Gable, who's had, maybe has a drinking problem or some small flaw that he has to overcome. They can be flat out assholes who are terrible people, who are doing terrible things. And ultimately, we cheer for breaking bad. And I forget his character name, but we want him to succeed even though he's a criminal and a terrible person. So that's something we always went into. And in the superhero, Lex Luthor or Superman. There are individuals who have essentially many ways the same power. One just goes this way, and one went this way with it. And Mark Hofmann, at some point, did decide to spend his life deceiving, and trying to get away with lying as much as he could. Had he turned right instead of left, who knows what he could have done. The fact of the matter is, as well, he planted two bombs that killed two innocent people for nothing more that we can understand then just to buy some time, so he can continue this fraud. I mean, that's all a criminal and fraud conman wants - more time, more time, more time. And he killed two innocent people. Look, when he bombed, when he planted these bombs, he was down, he owed about $1.5 million. Decent amount of money. In 1985 it's a lot of money. But if he would have just threw up his hands and said, you know what, guys? I am a fraud. I'm a fake. Sorry. I did all this. He probably would have been, he'd done 5 to 10 years. And he would have got out. You know, be working for the FBI right now. Could have written a book.

Intro 22:47
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. As our famous fraudsters who've done something, who've done similar, you know.,

Tyler Measom 22:54
Frank Abagnale from Catch Me If You Can. The dude is a millionaire now. He sells books. And he had, you know, he had Leonardo DiCaprio play him. Which isn't it everyone, is that your dream, ultimately, like to have Leo get to play...

Intro 23:10
Well, I don't even, I never once ever have even entertained that thought. Believe it or not. But yes, I think, I've even, I used to work for a company that had, that he used to speak at their conferences and things like. It was like, he's a superstar in this field. I mean, but yeah, I think you kind of, well, not just kind of, you're hitting on a point too. Because there's something, there's almost like there's a chromosome missing or something, because he's just so, I don't know how to describe it, almost matter of fact about these things. I had to kill someone to buy me some time. Almost like doesn't even appreciate what he's done. And I think that was interesting about even trying to go after the parole board.

Tyler Measom 24:02
Yeah, that's the worst parole hearing ever. I mean, he just did not show empathy or sadness. He basically just said, well, they're dead. And I didn't care. He literally said, it could have been a child or a dog who picked up that bomb. It didn't matter. So no, I don't, I don't think he'll ever get out. Unfortunately. But he definitely is a unique individual, and I'm no analyst, but he's most likely a psychopath of some sort.

Intro 24:32
Yeah. We're gonna have to, let's take a quick break, for our sponsor, and we'll be right back with Tyler Measom, co-director and executive producer of Murder Among the Mormons.

Factual America midroll 24:46
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter at Alamo pictures to keep up to date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.

Matthew 25:04
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with the co-director and executive producer of Murder Among the Mormons, Tyler Measom, on Netflix, if you didn't already know that. We've been talking about this incredible figure, Mark Hoffman. But Tyler, I mean, how did you get involved with this? Who had the idea for this film? And what drew you to this film in the first place?

Tyler Measom 25:33
You know, I am a documentary filmmaker, of course. And I've made a number of documentaries, some of them, many of them pertaining to faith and belief, and why we believe certain things. One of my films, my first documentary was called Sons of Perdition. In the UK, I believe it was called Leaving the Cult, is what the BBC Storyville changed it to.

Intro 25:51
I think, it's Leaving the Cult Caling: Sons of Perdition or something. Maybe.

Tyler Measom 25:57
And that followed kids who are kicked out of a Mormon polygamist community. I myself was raised as a Mormon. I have consequently and gratefully left the faith and no longer believe in its tenants principles, practices, or treatments in many ways. Or history. And then I made another film called An Honest Liar about James the amazing Randi and in the UK, I think that was called, I don't remember what they called it. But it was on BBC Storyville. It was a much more titillating title. Try and make Murder Among the Mormons more titillating? You pretty much have to live without one. That's a very good, literate, fun. It's got murder. It's got Mormons. And so I've always been kind of interested in why people believe certain things. I think in today's world, we're more of a set in false belief, we literally have at our finger tips, literally most information we'd ever need right on this little angled glass thing called the phone. But yet people believe stupid shit, they just believe nonsense. And there's always going to be someone who's trying to sell you a faulty bill of goods. There's a snake in the grass, always willing to pawn some kind of forgery to you, whether it's the former president or some jackass who thinks that there's Bill Gates is putting microchips in your vaccine. So I was always fascinated by this. And Mark was someone that I was always interested, and how he was able to ply these individuals and sell them what they wanted. So I had read a book about it. And I said, I'm going to make this film. And that was in 2017, early 2017. So it's been four years, and just started the process. Jared Hess is a gentleman whom I know. He's a former, he's a Utah boy as well. And he created and directed Napoleon Dynamite. And we've been friends for a long time. And we decided to do this together.

Intro 28:02
So can I just say, I have to interrupt there, because Jared wasn't able to make it this evening, I lost all kinds of credibility with my children. Because when they heard I was going to get to talk to the director of Napoleon Dynamite, I immediately went I don't know how many levels in their eyes. Because it is like a cult film in my house. So it's like, you know, so that's another podcast, another discussion.

Tyler Measom 28:27
You still could. And Jared is unfortunately, you know, we had scheduling conflicts with this podcast. Jared is in Mexico, because he can, I guess. So he's in Mexico, but you should talk to him, because he was a blast to work with. And teaming with, you know, a narrative filmmaker with a doc filmmaker. And I yet to really see any examples of that, where a narrative and a doc filmmaker have teamed together, at least seasoned narrative and doc filmmakers. It was fun. It was really amazing. And for him doing something like this was quite a stretch, you know. He's made typically comedies and wacky comedies. And this has elements of levity in it. This is a very fun series, and we intended to have levity, because the last thing we wanted was a murder fast of blood and drama and crime and heartbreak. And anytime you can put levity in a film, of course, it makes the drama more dramatic. And the drama makes the levity more funny. So we just kept pitching this thing around, and eventually it found a very nice home in a small little channel, little niche channel called Netflix. We were fortunate that they gave us about 50 bucks to make it. We squeezed it, we made it in a weekend, put it on their little channel and a few people watched it

Intro 29:47
Amazing. YouTube or Netflix kind of, what are you going to do? I think but even before you get to that stage, because I think you had to, it took a little while to get this pitched to people. I don't normally watch other interviews, because I like coming up with my own questions that everyone else has already asked and not knowing, you know, being blissfully unaware that everyone asks the same question.

Tyler Measom 30:12
I'll find a way to give you the same answers regardless.

Intro 30:15
But, I mean, how does the film get to that next step? Because I have been on brainstorming sessions at studios and you people have all these great ideas and everything sounds cool, but how do you become confident that there is an audience for it? I mean, I guess you're a seasoned documentary filmmaker, so you have a certain experience with it. But you know, there's a lot of great ideas out there that don't even make the light of day.

Tyler Measom 30:42
Sure, there's a lot of shitty ideas too. And there's a lot of shitty ideas that do see the light of day, which is worse. You know, it's not easy. I mean, I'm not gonna, you know, it's really, really, really difficult to make a film, finish a film, get a film seen and get it on the air. It's exhausting. And it's trying. And it's, the fact of matter is a non scripted, it's, there's just not that great of money. It's okay, but it's really not. If I work this hard trying to get a widget off the ground, I'd probably have a swimming pool, but I don't, I have a bathtub. So when you find, when you decide to make a project, and you decide which project you're gonna make, it's not, it's very frequent, when someone says, I want you to make this project, it's all set up, you have to basically come up with it on your own. And you have to know that a) it's a project you can do, b) you can get access to, c)someone's gonna buy the thing and d)are you just gonna hate this thing? You know, because it's not like a commercial where you shoot a commercial over a couple of days, and you're done with it. This is years of your life. And passion and time and effort and energy. And ultimately, when you say yes to one thing, you're saying no to other things. So this process of getting it off the ground was, I'll be frank with you, Jared and I took this out. And we got nose, we got passes from everyone. And I'm not even joking. Everyone, including Netflix. And everyone said no. And it was just heartening. And we had a great sizzle. We had a great team, we had a great package. And then we brought on the BBC studios, and Alejandro Melendez came on. And then he brought in Joe Berlinger and Joe Berlinger, of course, is the grandfather of true crime. And Joe Berlinger basically came to the pitches and said, I like these guys, this is a great story. And everything was different at that point. So we took the same package out twice and got passes first and yeses after.

Intro 32:43
But you must, were you ever tempted to say, wait a minute, maybe there's something we're not getting right. We've got to tweak it, or we've got to change it in order to...

Tyler Measom 32:50
I mean, no. We always knew that there was a great story there. If anything, what we did do, is we pitched it. I think one of the issues and for anyone who's interested in film, or whatever is, we were kind of in the early stages, when we first pitched it of the fact that it's not just about a documentary, it could be a documentary series. And the initial world of documentary series were very long. Making a Murderer was, like 10 episodes, it was way too long. Wild Wild Country was like eight episodes. So we initially pitched this as six episodes. And also we pitched this like - it can be a doc or it can be a narrative, it could be a documentary or documentary series. We kind of didn't know at that point. And we pitched it as a six part series. And Netflix said, we'll give you three. And, you know, we were content with that, it allowed us to tell a tight story. And I think it was a better move for the story in general.

Intro 33:44
I was gonna thank you for that, actually. Because having watched some true crime recently, I won't name which ones, but you might have mentioned one or two of them already. They're, they're just exceedingly too long. You get the feeling like you're being used, like they're milking this. They want, you know, this is going to affect the algorithm somehow or you know.

Tyler Measom 34:07
Once you get past episode four, like you got to go full hog, right, at that point. Yeah, I mean, I watched The Vow and it was good, but 10, 9 episodes? I was like, man, just, can I drive faster to the end of this? And that's a real common topic, I mean, among non scripted right now, is how many episodes is too many and how many is too few? And I don't know the answers.

Matthew 34:31
Isn't it, almost the word of wisdom has always been, how long should it be? As long as it needs to tell the story. You know, I don't know if that's being a little bit naive. But if you can tell it in an hour and a half, tell it in an hour and a half, you know, I mean.

Tyler Measom 34:49
Yeah. And I think being forced to, the most important part of documentary filmmaking isn't what you put in the film. It's what you leave on the floor. And the stories that you think are fascinating, ultimately just aren't fascinating to a worldwide audience, which is what we were aiming for. This film is playing in Indonesia, and, you know, and in Kentucky. And how are we going to appeal to those two people at the same time? And ultimately is how can we streamline this story and leave any fat on the ground that's not necessary. And also, redundancy. That's one thing that drives me nuts is redundancy in a story. You already told me that, I don't need to hear it again, kind of feeling.

Matthew 35:36
I hate it,mmy personal pet peeve, is when you see the same footage used a second or third time, you know.

Tyler Measom 35:43
Or the reality TV style, which is like just show us something and then you go to commercial. And then just tell us again, what just happened 10 minutes ago. And I'm like, I'm right, I was right here. My memory is not, I'm not a goldfish. I remember that it happened. But they're filling out. You know, they're trying to fill it out. And I do think part of it is, that in many ways producers, look peek behind the curtain, but you get paid per episode. So if I can make nine episodes, I'm getting nine paychecks as opposed to two or three.

Intro 36:15
But isn't, don't you think streaming is kind of liberating now? Because, you know, I saw one recently. We had them on the podcast, actually. I think it was five episodes, but one was 26 minutes. And the next episode was like 49. And then, you know, it was just kind of that chapter could be shorter. So it was shorter, you know.

Tyler Measom 36:36
Yeah. It forces you to kind of create a three act structure within a three act structure or within, you know, three parts is what we did. How are we going to end this. Which is actually kind of freeing in many ways, storywise to go, I'm going to try and make like we did. Episode One is the setup, ends with the bombs. Episode Two is the investigation and it ends with the conviction, if you will. And then Episode Three is how he did it. And if we were making a doc and we revealed Mark was a forger, we've had to put that how he did it throughout. He forged this document, this is how he forged it. And then we dole it out throughout, but we always wanted to like, put the heavy stuff at the end. And having that three part series allowed us to do such.

Intro 37:24
And I guess it also helps to have some interesting, excellent cast of characters. And I mean, did you have any problems lining up talking heads for this? Because it seems like, except for the victims unfortunately, everyone seems to still be alive. And they all came on camera and the prosecutors, the Antiquities dealers, the family, all very, seemingly very cooperative.

Tyler Measom 37:49
By and large. Yeah, I mean, obviously, we didn't get the interview, we wish we would have gotten, which is Mark Hofmann, but. I mean, were there people that were involved in the saga that are no longer with us? Yes. Did we include them in the story in, you know, in any reference? Not really. Because it's difficult to relay a storyteller when they're not there to tell that story. But by and large, everyone talked to us. And by and large, everyone had amazing stories to tell. There were some that hit the cutting room floor. We probably interviewed, I don't know, six to eight people that didn't make the film, which is, you know, sad. As a filmmaker to say, thank you for giving us your entire day and telling your amazing story. And that sure was a great day and good storytelling for us, but no one else will see it, unfortunately. But by and large, you know, in editing, we just decided let's just keep it the inside. We have the inside people. We don't need someone who was outside giving us reference to it. And so we leaned on that.

Intro 38:50
Yeah, that's right. You don't like rely on any, well, I think there is one, but not like you've got journalists or news anchors or whatever say well I remember this. It's literally the people who were all involved. Or friends of Mark's or dealt with Mark, you know.

Tyler Measom 39:06
There's one author, and he was also the representative for the Mormon Church. So he was able to kind of speak for them, but he'd written a book about it. Otherwise, everyone was directly related, even including the broadcaster, the news reporter, who was a news reporter at the time. And I think that's, I mean, if you can get those individuals telling the story from their own personal firsthand, that's the best way to hear it anyways, of course.

Matthew 39:36
And there were, I mean, excellent edit. And very good, some great accents on there.

Tyler Measom 39:43
Yeah, very Mormon. I mean, it was a white dude film. It is old white fat guys. And I love them all. And they're amazing. But by and large, this was a beard and belly fest of white dudes. And we knew that, we wish we had more females involved in it. But we just, you know, they weren't part of the story.

Intro 40:07
I think one of them said, I forget, I don't remember the names of it. One of them said something about his wife accusing him of being greedy. And my wife was looking at him like, you definitely are. I mean look at that belly on you. You know, you're definitely greedy about something.

Tyler Measom 40:20
He is, that guy is amazing. Brent Ashworth has the most unbelievable antiquities collection you will ever see. He has everything from Butch Cassidy's gun to Abraham Lincoln's chair, to Joseph Smith's pan to like just remarkable materials, remarkable stuff. So these guys were collectors. And that was actually really helpful in many ways, because they collected their history. So when we interviewed him, they're like, I have boxes full of old papers and tapes and photos and forgeries for you. And we said, great, we'll take them all.

Intro 40:51
Excellent. Yeah, it's, it is incredible, I think, what you've, I think I've seen in another interview, you know, you could have made that six hour, six episode one, because you certainly had more than enough archive to keep you going. Not that you just want to fill it with that, but you know...

Tyler Measom 41:11
Yeah, we could have told some stories that ,there are some amazing stories with the saga. And it doesn't just,it's not just five years of forgeries, it's a whole lifetime. And you encounter into it the setting in which he was able to work - the Mormon Church and some of their possible deceptions and deceits and forgeries and hidings. It's a 200 year story.

Matthew 41:34
And have you been, are you and Jared surprised by this success? I mean, you probably gonna say - no, we knew we had a great film. But did you really expect it to take off like it has?

Tyler Measom 41:45
Jared is, has been in a position, he made a film that everyone has seen. I mean, he's one of the few, you could say like, what Star Wars and Napoleon Dynamite and what maybe Pulp Fiction, like everyone in the world has seen, even though my mom's never seen Pulp Fiction. So, you know, he's kind of had this, this previous massive sensation of a movie. So for many ways, I don't think he'll ever attain that again. And maybe you can ask him that. But we knew we had a great story. And we knew we had a titillating tale. And we knew that we had an interesting title, which Netflix said you should, you know, initially, the title was The Salamander. Which is obscure and interesting, but it doesn't make you want to click on it. And then we were gonna go Salamander Murders. And that felt like some kind of, you know, crushing toads under your, under your boot.

Matthew 42:45
Sounds like a nature doc. Yeah.

Tyler Measom 42:47
Right. And then Netflix suggested Murder Among the Mormons. And they said, you'll get tens of millions more views. And we said, great, what font do you want it in? All caps, bold? You want it flashing? So we knew that it was a great story. And we knew that it would be in 191 countries across the globe. And so we hoped for good, good audience and you know, we're very, we're very grateful for what it's had.

Intro 43:15
That's interesting. You almost went with the salamander because the one thing that, you know, as someone who's, I wasn't born or raised Mormon, but I have this...

Tyler Measom 43:23
It's not too late. It is not too late. I could send those cute little white boys over with their white shirts and ties.

Matthew 43:29
I see them every so often.

Tyler Measom 43:31
Give me your address, I'll have a Book of Mormons sent to you.

Intro 43:35
But that's the thing. And as we find out in the film, that it's this, it's one of the main letters and one of the main forgeries, it's a big issue. I just always assumed this whole thing about the salamander. We don't need to go into details with this. But I always thought that that was one of the tenants of the, that's what, if you want to talk about the impact and we talked, I said, at least I don't remember those bombings and things like that. But what did I go away with? Somewhere along the way, I picked up with the fact that I thought that salamander was a tenant of the religion. It's kind of interesting, isn't it?

Tyler Measom 44:11
You know, when we started this, Jared and I are, you know, Mormon history nerds, and we knew everything about the story. And we brought in these two editors from LA. And neither of them had any experience or knowledge with the Mormon faith or with Utah or this story at all. And one of them eventually, I was like, we need to tell more story about how Joseph Smith, he was a salamander instead of an angel and how weird that is, and he goes, what the hell's the difference? Like why, a talking salamander is actually more common than an angel. Like I've seen salamanders. I've never seen an angel. So in many ways, it was apples and oranges. You know, a heavenly being or a white talking amphibian that punch Joseph Smith in the face, supposedly. That's supposedly what happened, according to the salamander letter.

Matthew 45:06
Which we know is now a forgery. That one.

Tyler Measom 45:13
Well, the thing that Mark Hofmann did is, what he was so good at, is he would heavily research. And when he found that there were rumors that Joseph Smith had told people that there was a toad, that a toad have actually led him to the golden plates. So when he came up with this document and said, salamander it wasn't so far out of left field at the Mormon Church said okay, maybe there is some truth to this. We didn't cover, he found so many documents that he sold to the Mormon Church, that could have ultimately really destroyed their religion. And if he'd have kept going, he would have continued to do such things.

Intro 45:50
Well, was that a bit of his intention? Do you think? Or was he just more in it for the money? He knew, he had a ready market, he thought, in terms of these things.

Tyler Measom 45:59
The reason Mark Hofmann did this is multifold. One is, yeah, he was making good money. And if you ask him, and he said that it was money that drove him. I think he needed to feed the beast of deception. I think he liked fooling people. But I do think he had something of a vendetta against the Mormon faith. And as a wolf in sheep's clothing, he knew he was able to take it down, in some aspects. But the power he must have felt, you know, there's this photo and we put it in the film where he's a college kid. And he creates this document, the Anton transcript, he creates it literally in his kitchen, using, this was his first forgery, major forgery. He uses household items, just there in his kitchen. And he did it all during the day, before Dory, his wife came home. And he made this document, he shows it to a professor at his college. And the next day, he's literally in the upper echelon of the Mormon Church. And these are individuals who are prophets, seers, and regulators. One of them is a prophet who supposedly defined divines you know, revelation from God Himself. And he's sitting there, and they're looking at this document, and they pass it off as genuine. The feeling he must have had, knowing that that little piece of paper he made in his fucking kitchen two days before, and now there is fooling them. And they believe it's genuine. The mixed feelings he must have had. I mean, he wrote in his journal that night, when he found it. I don't know why but he had a journal. And he wrote - you wouldn't believe what I found today. It says, unbelievable forg, unbelievable document, I found it in a book. And why he did that. I don't know if he just needed to fool himself. I mean, he even said, if somebody says, if something is certified as genuine, then it becomes genuine. That's his own words. So those mental gymnastics he must have done to say, you know, this document, the power he must have felt to create and change history, you know. To change and alter what millions of people believe and know and pray to every day, and believe that this is why they are in a religion. To have that power to change that, in your basement, with a little bit of ink and an old piece of paper that you stole from a library. I mean, it's the remarkable feeling, I suspect.

Intro 48:34
I mean, do you, given your background, you've said both you and Jared have these Mormon roots. Does it make you more or less sensitive, in terms of, I mean, obviously, Netflix is no stranger to sensationalism, but it's certainly not a sensationalist film. I mean, some may be disappointed that it isn't, you know, but does that, does that play into your considerations at all?

Tyler Measom 49:01
Do I, you know, do I believe in the Mormon Church? No, I don't. But does that affect the story I was telling? No. Ultimately, you know, I'm not going to put my own spin or opinions or ideas into the film, especially when it's such a great story that it doesn't need that. And the fact of the matter is, is people can take from it what they want, you know. My favorite movie quote is Billy Wilder, and he said, let the audience figure out two plus two, and they'll love you for it. And we continually tried to, you know, just give the audience just enough and let them figure it out. If you want to make the connection between Joseph Smith and Mark Hofmann, it's there for you. If you want to believe that, you know, Mark Hofmann was just an atheist who was out to destroy the heavenly Messenger of God, then you can believe that as well. And that's, I think, what we tried to do with this series.

Matthew 49:59
That's a great Billy Wilder quote, actually.

Tyler Measom 50:01
Oh, you should look up the Billy Wilder's 10 rules of screenwriting. It's remarkable. If you're interested in film or a filmmaker, or as a non scripted filmmaker, it's very important as well.

Matthew 50:15
And then ultimately, I mean, do you think this film has something to say about the foundations of religious belief?

Tyler Measom 50:23
I think this film has something to say about belief in general. Whether it's religion, politics, commerce, capitalism, antiquities, sports, you know. People believe what they want to believe. It takes a bit for you to just say, this isn't true. Even though I want it to be true, it's not true. And I'm going to put aside my biases, in order for this to be true. And few people have that ability. And when we are confronted with an individual, like Mark Hofmann, who is so good at selling this, and can sell it to a mass audience, some people can do that, then it's even easier to spread a lie. I mean, Mark Twain said that a lie will spread across the world by the time the truth is still putting on his shoes. It's a paraphrase but essentially, that's what he said. We want to believe the lie most of the time.

Intro 51:23
That's a very, I think that's a good place to, at least stop talking specifically about the film. And I think, I'll just to ask you, because we're coming to the end of our time together, it's hard to believe. But what is next for you?

Tyler Measom 51:38
Lunch. I'm gonna have some...

Matthew 51:40
Not literally, beyond the next 24 hours.

Tyler Measom 51:44
I thought you'd asked me what was for lunch, that would really be another hour of conversation. I'm always looking for interesting projects. I have a number in development and pipeline, in various stages of development. At this point, I don't know, I made a film prior to this, called I want my MTV, which is about the birth of MTV, music television. And I kind of like, I love music. I love telling stories of music. So I may do something in that genre. Or I may just make more murder among the Mormons or more murder or Mormon...

Matthew 52:22
You have to do the, don't do the Making a Murderer Season Two things, like two or three years later. No kidding. No, no, please. I've had the risk of offending those, we've never had them on and now we probably won't. But yes, please don't do that.

Tyler Measom 52:36
It was a hell of a series. That worked. And I can understand, look, it's easy as a filmmaker, when you are offered something that is in your wheelhouse, it's easy to sell, it's easy to make. And typically, it's quick money to do something else. But I do get offered things along the same genre. And I kind of just don't want to. I want to venture into something new and different and exciting. But I always like levity. I like comedy. And I think that's one thing that is ultimately missing from documentary in general, is just fun. And comedy and laughs and happiness and joy. There's so many of them that are like, just that's downers. Be it cult, or climate change or war. So that's ultimately one thing I'm always looking for, is something that can make people laugh in a documentary.

Matthew 53:31
If I can second that, to a degree, certainly, I mean, just based on our own experience of this podcast. The episodes that are the most popular, the ones that get the most views or listens, are, I mean, they may be about serious subjects, but they don't necessarily take themselves too seriously. The ones that are very, like, somber, you know, this is horrible, you know, and they are talking about, a lot of times they are talking about horrible things and things that do need to be dealt with, like climate change, but Gosh, we certainly don't get many clicks on those, you know. It's interesting.

Tyler Measom 54:09
If you want it somber you can turn on the news. We're living somber right now, that it's nice to have an escape. I do think that's one of the reasons that Murder Among Mormons did well. Was that there are moments of levity, despite the pain that still lingers because of it.

Matthew 54:28
Well, thank you so much for coming on. It's been a joy having you, Tyler. It was a lot of fun for us. When you do finally decide what that next one's going to be, if we haven't scared you off, we'd love to have you on again.

Tyler Measom 54:43
I will happily tell you all the tales of my lunch, as well.

Matthew 54:48
Okay, well, we will keep that in mind. And those who were, I guess if some maybe are still waiting to come back to listen because they're probably just starting Episode Two now. So I just want to give another thank you to Tyler Measom, the co-director and executive producer of Murder Among the Mormons, available to watch on Netflix. Also shout out to our engineer Freddie bez brode, and the rest of the team. This Is Distorted studios in Leeds, England. A big thanks to Nevena Paunovic, our podcast manager at Alamo pictures who ensures we continue getting such great guests, like Tyler on to the show. Finally, a big thanks to our listeners. As always, we'd love to hear from you. So please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas. Whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. And please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America. Signing off.

Factual America Outro 55:46
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo pictures specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the shownotes for more information about today's episode, our guests and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at Alamo pictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk