The State of Texas vs. Melissa: The Death Penalty's Problems

Factual America

29 Jun

Written By

Melissa Lucio is the only Hispanic woman to ever be sentenced to death in the state of Texas. She is currently facing her last appeal, having spent 13 years on death row.

Her case, as well as the problems with the American justice system and the death penalty, are captured in the documentary The State of Texas vs. Melissa (2020).

Having made its festival debut, the film has received great reviews and won multiple audience choice awards. Joining us is French-American journalist and filmmaker Sabrina Van Tassel, who directed, wrote and produced the film.

This is also a joint episode with Factual America's sister podcast, The Lone Star Plate, hosted by Patrick Scott Armstrong, who interviews famous Texans and explores compelling Texas stories.

“I believe Melissa would already have been executed if I hadn’t made this film.” - Sabrina Van Tassel

Time Stamps:

00:00 - Introducing the guest, and the trailer for The State of Texas vs. Melissa.
04:04 - Where you can watch this documentary.
05:16 - What the film is about and who Melissa is.
07:37 - How Sabrina got involved with this case.
12:00 - What it was like meeting Melissa for the first time.
15:13 - The biases people have towards certain ethnic groups.
22:36 - The trust in God there is within the Roman Catholic community.
24:40 - Melissa’s first lawyer and the chances of winning a case against the DA office.
28:27 - The appeal Melissa won and then overturned a short time later.
32:19 - Why Sabrina believes Maria died from falling down the stairs.
37:48 - How Sabrina got access to Melissa and her defence attorney.
44:14 - How Melissa’s family responded to the film.
45:56 - The chances of Melissa being released and Sabrina doing a follow-up film.
50:26 - How quickly an execution is carried out after an inmate’s appeals run out.
51:55 - Why Sabrina wants to bring awareness to the justice system's failures.
55:55 - The problems with the death penalty and death row.
59:48 - The positive effects making this film has had.
1:01:58 - What people can do to help put an end to the death penalty.
1:06:48 - The next projects Sabrina is working on.
1:07:59 - How being French gives Sabrina a different perspective on American culture.
1:10:58 - Advice for other filmmakers who want to make documentaries.
1:14:56 - Sabrina’s director of photography and the film's unique soundtrack.

Resources:

The State of Texas vs. Melissa (2020)
The Lone Star Plate
The Innocence Project
Alamo Pictures

Transcript for Factual America Episode 67 - The State of Texas vs. Melissa: The Death Penalty's Problems

Sabrina Van Tassel 00:01 Hello, my name is Sabrina Van Tassel. I am a film director and a reporter, and I've directed The State of Texas vs. Melissa.

Melissa Lucio 00:18 My name is Melissa Elizabeth Lucio. I'm 48 years old. I have 14 children. I've been on death row 11 years.

Speaker 1 00:41 There were bruises from head to toe. There were bruises on the face, in the hair, on the chest. This was the worst case of child abuse I had ever seen.

Speaker 2 00:56 Oh my gosh.

Speaker 3 00:59 You fell all the way down from the first step up there, all the way down there. Imagine the baby falls.

Speaker 4 01:06 The baby.

Speaker 5 01:08 And did you see her fall, or did somebody tell you that that's what had happened to her?

Speaker 6 01:11 No, I saw her.

Speaker 7 01:12 That interview was never presented to the court. And none of those kids ever said that their mom was beating up Mariah.

Melissa Lucio 01:20 It was during election time. Armando Villalobos was running again for DA. I'm the first Hispanic woman on death row, so this was a huge case for him.

Speaker 8 01:33 Bribery was endemic. He'd be compensated for favorable treatment in criminal cases.

Speaker 9 01:44 There was a plan to put her away. My mother. Poor, perfect target to help him win his election. She's no criminal, they're the criminals.

Speaker 10 02:02 They're the criminals.

Matthew 02:19 That is a trailer from the documentary The State of Texas vs. Melissa, and this is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo Pictures an Austin and London based production company making documentaries about America for international audiences. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Today, we're talking about the American justice system again, this time as captured in The State of Texas vs. Melissa. About the case of Melissa Lucio, the only Hispanic woman to ever be sentenced to death in the state of Texas. The doc. had its festival release last year, winning rave reviews and Audience Choice Awards. Joining us is French-American journalist and documentarian Sabrina Van Tassel, who directed, wrote, and executive produced the film. We're also joined by my podcast partner-in-crime, Patrick Scott Armstrong, host of The Lone Star Plate, Factual America's sister podcast. Patrick interviews famous Texans and explores compelling Texas stories. And I recommend you give Lone Star Plate a listen. It's one of the more entertaining podcasts out there. Given my own Texas roots and the overlap between documentary filmmaking and a truly compelling story about Texas, we decided to team up. I hope you enjoy this special edition of Factual America. Sabrina, welcome to Factual America.

Sabrina Van Tassel 03:35 Thank you for having me. Yes, and Patrick, while you're sipping your coffee, do you want to...

Patrick Scott Armstrong 03:41 Welcome. Thank you, Sabrina. Thanks for joining us. This is awesome.

Sabrina Van Tassel 03:44 Thank you, Patrick.

Matthew 03:46 So, the film that, at least, Factual America listeners have already heard the trailer is The State of Texas vs. Melissa. It released in 2020, at least in festivals. Is it on Amazon Prime and Hulu?

Sabrina Van Tassel 04:04 Yeah, it was released on Hulu in April.

Matthew 04:07 Okay. And what about internationally, or do people just...

Sabrina Van Tassel 04:11 It's going to be released in the cinemas in France on September 15.

Matthew 04:17 Okay. Cool.

Sabrina Van Tassel 04:19 It's going to Cannes before, and it's going to the Deauville Film Festival before. And I'm hoping that it's going to be sold everywhere.

Matthew 04:30 Well, well, congrats...

Patrick Scott Armstrong 04:32 I saw it on Amazon. That's where I watched it. Yeah, it was great. On my big TV. I was like, okay, I don't want to watch it on a laptop. You know what I mean; I was like, no, no, no. The biggest screen as I could get to with it, okay, that's what I did.

Sabrina Van Tassel 04:46 Okay, that's great. Yeah, it's made for cinema. So, I am happy about that.

Matthew 04:50 So, welcome again, The State of Texas vs. Melissa is the film, as our listeners have heard or watched on YouTube. On Amazon Prime. Dropped on Hulu in April, and set for international release, and I believe a French theatrical release in the coming months. So, thanks so much Sabrina for coming on to the podcast.

Sabrina Van Tassel 05:13 So, The State of Texas vs. Melissa is a film about a woman on death row. Her name is Melissa Lucio. She's been there for 13 years now. And it's not only about her case, but it's also the portrait about a woman who the judicial system did not treat right. There's many reasons why I wanted to do this film. I think, a lot of wrongful convictions - you know, Melissa Lucio is one of them - have very flawed characters involved. And Melissa is one of them. She's a very imperfect, so to speak, character. She's someone who did not have an easy life, by all means. She was abused as a child, she lived a life of poverty, she had a history of drug abuse. She had a history of going with the wrong men in her life, and being involved with the wrong men. And once her daughter, you know, was found dead she was all of a sudden, you know, the perfect target. And I think that there are a lot of people like her in prisons, unfortunately. Because she checks all the boxes for the ideal culprit.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 06:49 Yeah.

Sabrina Van Tassel 06:50 So, that's the reason why I wanted to do a film about her. And again, I mean, I do believe with all my heart that she is innocent, and that she should not be where she's at. But even if she was guilty, I would still have done, I would still have, you know, made the film. I think it's first and foremost, a portrait of a woman, you know, against the entire system.

Matthew 07:20 And, I mean, I think, if I understand correctly, I mean, how did you get involved? Because this is not, I mean, going way back to, whatever, 2007. I mean, I guess it was a big case at the time locally in South Texas. But...

Patrick Scott Armstrong 07:20 Yeah.

Sabrina Van Tassel 07:26 You know, it wasn't such a big case. It was...

Patrick Scott Armstrong 07:41 I don't remember it. I don't remember the case.

Sabrina Van Tassel 07:43 You don't remember it, and most people in Texas don't. It wasn't a big case. It was, again, just another case of child abuse. And if you look at cases of child abuse throughout the United States, usually you don't end up on death row for child abuse, okay. So, the reason that it was - it was a big case for the DA at the time, who was in the middle of, you know, getting re-elected and who needed a case, to be re-elected, and he used her case. So, it was a big case for him. But if you ask most people, and even people down in Brownsville, they've never heard of this case. It was very fast. It was, like, a four day trial. You know, she was, you know, guilty from the moment she was arrested.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 08:31 Exactly, right. They put the headline in, you read it, you're done. You move on, that person's guilty. Yeah.

Sabrina Van Tassel 08:36 She was arrested at 7pm. Her daughter was found dead at 7pm. By 3am, she was indicted, basically. And end of story, no investigation; then, you know, the entire story goes on, then she gets, you know, a court appointed attorney, she's up for 30 years. She says, 'no'. He says, 'no problem, you know, we're gonna win this case'. Yeah. And you know, they go to trial. And then, you know, no witnesses, no nothing, and then now she's on death row. So, it wasn't a big story at the time. That the way how I got to know about her case is a different story. I was working on a previous documentary for French TV about women on death row. And I was trying to look for women to interview, and I found Melissa Lucio. And at the time, she had never been interviewed by anybody. I mean, no journalist whatsoever had ever, you know, written anything about her. And if you, you know, at the time, typed her name on Google, maybe two local newspapers who said something about her case, but not more than that. And so, when I went down to Brownsville, Texas to meet her family, and they were estranged at the time, you know, which, unfortunately, is often the case for death row offenders, you know, the family just gives up, they give up on them because there's no hope. So, I went down there, and I remember entering a house full of her family relatives, who said to me, you're the first person who have come to knock on our door in 13 years.

Matthew 10:24 And is it true you almost canceled the meeting?

Sabrina Van Tassel 10:27 Yes, I almost did. I almost did, because there was just nothing about her. You know, it was...

Patrick Scott Armstrong 10:34 Open and shut case, sort of thing?

Sabrina Van Tassel 10:35 It was a dull case. It was like, you know, a case of child abuse, and there's nothing to say, right? No American media has ever, you know, paid any attention to the case. And usually, when there's someone on death row, you can find all these, you know, crazy shows about it, you know, and there was just nothing about her. And so, when they said that to me, I said to them, like, well surely her lawyers must have gone and talked to you, correct? And they said, 'no, her lawyers have never contacted us. We were never allowed to speak to her lawyer. We were never allowed to speak to anybody. And nobody ever paid attention about us and about her.' And then they started telling me all these stories that, you know, the little girl had, you know, was actually it was, in fact, an accident, the little girl had fallen down the stairs, the DA was in prison, the attorney, you know, had gone to work for the DA, I mean, all these crazy stories, and I was just like, right, you know, as you know, everybody's, you know, innocent in prison. So, I was just - especially for family members - so, I was just like, okay, great. So, but I was, you know, it was just very, very bizarre, the entire thing was very peculiar. And then the next day, I went and I met Melissa. And that was just a shock. I think it was a shock for both of us. It was really a shock for me. I felt it, you know, I felt it; I felt that, you know, there was something really wrong with her case. And I just could not believe that, you know, she had done what she was accused of, it was just really hard for me. And I imagined this at the time. I could not - she was such a nobody, that there was no way for me to find out who her lawyer was. You know, I could not even find that, you know, on the internet. So, I said to her, can you please tell me the name of your attorney? And she kept saying it to me, she spelled it for me, and then, you know, I called her. And I said, listen, I just spoke to your client, and I have a really bad feeling about this. There's something really wrong. And she said, oh, yes, I know, she's been innocent for 12 years. But you know, she's done. There's nothing I can do about her, and she's going to be executed. Unfortunately, you're coming in this story way too late. And that's how it started, really, because I was just, okay. She said did you want to read some of her files? And I'm like, yes, just send me everything. And I spent the next couple of months just reading everything. I read everything about Melissa Lucio's case. So, I, you know, people can say whatever they want. The thing is, there is nothing in this case. There's nothing. Apart from a woman who gave up while she was being interviewed by five, you know, male police officers with guns, and who were threatening her and telling her she was never going to see her children again. And that, you know, they already knew what happened. So, she needed to just, you know, let go and she just basically gave up and she said, you know, I'm responsible for the bruising. She never said, 'I killed my -', you know, she never said that. She never said 'I killed my daughter'. She said I'm responsible for the bruises. And that was it. Basically.

Matthew 14:19 Yeah, I know it's -. I mean, a few things there; I mean, one thing. I mean, yours is not - I will say, yours is not the first to document that there's something inherently wrong with interrogation techniques in the - certainly in the way US police go around in cases like this. I mean, I won't go down the list, but, you know, how many of these things where they go in, they've decided who's guilty. Maybe the path of least resistance. And that's the whole point is to get a confession, to coerce a confession, and to get a result, I guess. And less about finding out what the truth is, is that - I mean, that's what your film captures, certainly in those scenes are just as damning.

Sabrina Van Tassel 15:14 You've seen the interrogation. I think it speaks, you know, it speaks volume. And if you review all the innocence projects, you know, wrongful convictions, I think a good 50%, if not 60% of them had confessed. And so, you know, that really doesn't mean anything, anymore. And, you know, you have these police officers who, you know, basically, that's what they want. But it's the entire system. It's not only the police officers, it's also the forensic experts, okay, who, you know, right away, they see the bruising, and they're like, oh, yeah, she was abused. And she was, you know, that child is a victim of abuse. And so, from that moment, you know, once, you know, that person writes 'homicide' on it, then the police officer is, you know, this is what they want to get. They want to, you know, they want to hear this, you know. So, it's like playing God, almost, there's all these people who know, who know the truth. I mean, there's a lot of things for me who are really hard to understand. First of all, if you really think that, you know, Melissa Lucio should be on death row, why did you offer 30 years? I mean, there's kind of a big gap between 30 years, and, you know, and killing someone, you know, I mean, if she is such a danger to society, why would you put her on death row when you just offered her 30 years? I mean, that for me does not make any sense. Second of all the forensic experts who they know, right, but, you know, in the film, I have another forensic expert who said the exact opposite of the first one. So, that's another problem. And then you have all these police officers, who know. They saw her. I think the Texas Ranger who was interrogating her, he said, in court, that he knew she was guilty from the moment he saw her. So, I mean, there's all these people who know, and they play God, and there's all these, you know, people who end up on death row or in prison, you know, for life. And that's a big problem. I think there needs to be, I mean, I can go on and on, but there needs to be a huge reform. Yeah.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 17:54 Well, why is there even; I mean, not to take it there, but why is there even a death penalty to begin with, right? Like that's, I mean, not to put my own personal opinion in there, but like, you know, my God, this is a very deeply unsettling film for myself. I'm not gonna lie. I was very anxious watching it. It's very personal. My mom's Mexican herself. You know, cultural wise, it made me think, like, how much does that influence how this woman, you know, was in her life? How she got to where she was? Yeah, the cops taking it. How much of that influenced the cops taking advantage of that moment, right? They see a poor, right, Mexican woman, 14 kids. Oh yeah, this woman did it, right, and done. Once they hit that switch, it's like, they're not going back, they're done. The ball's rolling. You know, like, the one lawyer that you have, at the end of the film, he basically sums it up, right? Like, you know, he puts his own personal opinion in at the last - like I did there, like, well, just my personal opinion is, she did what she did, and now it's her fault, and she's got to deal with it, you know; that's the gist really, at the end. That's what they all thought, and they put her on death row because of it. It's horrendous.

Sabrina Van Tassel 19:11 Absolutely. Absolutely. You just summed it up. I mean, you know, she had too many children. For a lot of people, you know, even today, even after watching the film, I mean, of course, most people are outraged, but some will say, oh, well, you know, she was poor. Why did she have so many children, you know, oh, well, what did she use? You know, but that has nothing to do with it.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 19:37 Exactly.

Sabrina Van Tassel 19:38 I'm not asking you if George Floyd was a model citizen. It doesn't interest me to know, you know; the fact of the matter is that Derek Chauvin killed him. And that's the end of the matter, you know, that's all that matters to me. I mean, you don't need to have model citizens you know, in front of you in order, you know, for them to be found not guilty. I mean, you know, if I kept wondering if it was me who was arrested, and my child had fallen down the stairs, and, you know, I'm white, I have that white privilege, right? And I would have convinced the cops; for sure, I have no doubt in my mind. I would have said, 'you know what, I have a lot of children. And one of my daughters, she fell down the stairs. You don't believe me? Okay, you know what, speak to my lawyer'. The thing is, Melissa Lucio did not even have the knowledge to know that she could have a lawyer, you know, by her side, she had never been arrested before; she had no knowledge.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 20:38 And those cops weren't going to tell her, right? Like, they're not gonna help her defend herself.

Sabrina Van Tassel 20:43 No.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 20:43 Like you said, right? They outnumbered her, they're in her face, right, that personal space that - who, you know...

Sabrina Van Tassel 20:52 They're lying to her.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 20:54 Yeah.

Sabrina Van Tassel 20:54 Everybody has said it. That, you know, all the children had said that it was her. You know, they're using all these techniques. And, you know, and she has lost her daughter, and she has not, you know, slept and she woke up that day at five in the morning. And she hasn't had a drink of water. She wasn't allowed to speak to her husband, she, you know, wasn't allowed to go to the restroom. I mean, it's just all these things that, you know, play - and, you know, some experts say that at some point, you become convinced of what they're telling you. You're thinking, you know what, maybe I am responsible. And she kept saying 'I'm responsible, I'm responsible'. But, you know, I think that what she means is I'm responsible for this situation.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 21:41 As a mother...

Sabrina Van Tassel 21:41 I'm responsible for having too many children, for this life of poverty, for not, you know, being the mother, I should've been. And she said that to me very often, actually. I should not, you know, I should have been a better mom, I should have done, you know, better for my kids. So, you know...

Patrick Scott Armstrong 22:02 But my mom says that, you know, I mean, it's true, you know, yeah, I mean, but maybe it's, you know, like my aunt says that about their kid, you know, on my mom's side, the Latin side, it's almost like this very submissive - it's like, I didn't do enough, but they did a lot, right? It's like, mom, you did a lot. It's like, what are you talking about? It's, there's always this constant thing of, you know, I didn't do enough. And how much did they use that against her, that guilt; right, they sort of used that against her, and as a weapon, and, oh man, it's tragic, absolutely.

Sabrina Van Tassel 22:35 And you saw that in the film, how I put, you know, the Virgin Mary, you know, in this very Roman Catholic, you know, community where the guilt is huge. And where the mom should be perfect. And where, you know, everything is in the hands of God. And, you know, when I spoke to her family, you know, the thing they kept repeating to me was like, well, if God wants to, you know, in God's will, she'll be freed. And I said, well, how about, you know, helping God a little bit, you know, and trying to get her out there, you know, and do something. But it's that mentality of, you know, we are - and they said it to me, you know, that was something that was really heartbreaking. They said, you know, we're the stupid people; we're the people that don't count. We're the people who don't know, we don't know how to talk. There's nothing we can do. And at the very beginning, when I started the film, the one thing they kept saying to me was, like, what are we risking? Is something going to happen to us? Are they going to come after...? It's been so many years. I mean, what are you afraid of? But, you know, the threat, especially in South Texas is there. There is, it's a huge Latino community, but there's definitely, you know, the ones who have power, and the ones who have none. And if you don't have any, it's not a good place to be.

Matthew 24:09 So, I mean, I think - yeah, and that's the other thing, I mean, you know, as you were already saying, you know, playing God, it's this sort of, it's this condescending attitude that the prosecutor you mentioned, Patrick, who says at the end, well, this on her, because she could have taken the plea deal. Well, why is that the option? Why is that - if you're innocent, you would proclaim your innocence. You don't take 30...

Sabrina Van Tassel 24:37 This is not the way it goes.

Matthew 24:39 No, it isn't.

Sabrina Van Tassel 24:39 I mean look at the numbers. The numbers are in United States that 95% of cases are won by the DAs, by the DA's office. 95%. They don't take a case unless they're going to win it. So, your best option is to take the plea deal. And if he had been a nice person, he would have told her, take the plea deal, because you are going to be, you know, eaten alive, you know, it's never going to happen, you are never going to be free, but he wanted the money. He wanted the money. And then, you know, he got involved with a DA. I mean, you know, of course, you know. I strongly believe that it's kind of peculiar that he went to work for him just right after the case, and that there's just so many things that he did not bring into the case. But, you know, let's just say that he was the worst lawyer in history. You know, I'll take that. He could have been honest with her and told her listen, you know, you have a dead baby. She's covered in bruises. And, I mean, 30 years, she would have probably been out by now. I mean, you know, he just really played with her life. But, you know, he didn't really care. I mean, he hated her guts. I mean, there's just nothing about her that he liked. And I...

Patrick Scott Armstrong 26:10 He didn't think she was a good mother, right? That's what he said.

Sabrina Van Tassel 26:12 He didn't think that she was a good mother. He thought that she would be better off - and, you know, he said to Melissa's sister at the very end of the trial. He said to her, when she was asking about the children, she wanted to get, you know, Melissa's kids back, and he said to her, let them get lost in the system. Those were his words. Thinking that, you know, it would be best for them. I think people have very little knowledge of this - don't imagine the collateral damage that it creates, you know, for people not only on death row, but, you know, in prison, you know, everybody wants to, you know, lock everybody up for life. What about, you know, the family members? And what about, you know, I mean, how many generations does it take to recover from this? A lot. I can tell you in Melissa's family, it's like an atomic bomb has exploded, and it's going to take generations, you know, to get over this. Yeah, it will. And another thing you were referring about, you know, the death penalty. You can check it out. I mean, unless you're poor, black, brown, disabled, you know, mentally disabled. I mean, you're not going to end up on death row. That's not going to happen. If you have a little bit of money, if you have, you know, a little bit, yeah, money, education, you're going to get out of it. People who end up on death row are people who are indigenous. And that's a big problem.

Matthew 28:04 So, I mean, when you started this project, she would, as you said, her lawyer said, well, you're too late. Did the - and we'll talk a little more about this - but did the win at the appeals - well, momentary win at the appeals court - did that occur while you were filming? What was that?

Sabrina Van Tassel 28:25 Yeah, that all of a sudden appeared at the end of the filming.

Matthew 28:29 Yeah.

Sabrina Van Tassel 28:30 You know, I mean, people kept saying, oh, Melissa Lucio that's a name I haven't heard in a long time. Why are you interested in her? Why her? You know, why would you want to do a film about her? I mean, it was just all these things and then, you know, the entire town was talking about it; it was just the big thing. All of a sudden, we're talking about this case, and, you know, oh, you know, and then another thing as he's, you know, I wanted to get some footage; so, I went to all the local TV stations around Harlingen. And, you know, I was asking, I was like, you know, I'd like to buy some footage about in the Melissa Lucio case. I know that was a long time ago, but also about Armando Villalobos. And then right away, they'd be like, oh, that's not for sale, you can't, we're not selling this. Okay. So, so, it was, yeah, it was... it was peculiar. The feeling of it was quite incredible. And then all of a sudden, Margaret Schmucker, who was her lawyer at the time, was dismissed for other reasons. And she got a new lawyer. And then, six months later, she won her appeal. And we were just like, wow, what happened, you know? Then the film came out. There was a lot of press. And right at the moment when, you know, it started, you know, just - you started talking a little less about Melissa, just before the Hulu sale, just before the film was bought by Hulu in April, in February, all of a sudden, you know, she lost it again. And it was a very divided court. Seven of the judges said that she should have a new trial. Seven were against it, and three did not say anything. So, she basically lost 10 to 7. So, just the entire thing is just incredible. And now it's up to the Supreme Court, which takes 1% of cases a year. So, we're just hoping that the fact that she's on death row, that she's a woman that, you know, she, you know, that the DA is in prison for God's sake, and in 13 years, I mean, for an elected official in prison, and that's a lot of years that, you know, she won her appeal, and then, you know, that a very divided court, you know, reversed it again, you know, we're just hoping that, you know, the Supreme Court's gonna pick up that case and, and do what, you know, should be done.

Matthew 31:12 But that is truly her last chance, isn't it?

Sabrina Van Tassel 31:16 It is. It is.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 31:21 Oh, man; it's heartbreaking. You know, I think about the moment in the film, where she talks about why she admitted to doing the bruising, right, like, to save her daughter, right, in some sense, right? This motherly, which I get, right, yeah, I absolutely get that she's got 14 of them, right; so, but at the same time you think, and, of course, you know, thinking macro for her but loving, right, that one child, but realizing well, but if I go to jail, there's 13 more that need taking care of- what a dilemma to be in, right? So, she's thinking, well, I don't want my daughter to go to jail. I don't want to admit for her, but I didn't do it, right; so, I don't want to go to jail, either. I mean, just what a predicament to be in and, you know, not saying the daughter did it, you know, the other daughter, I mean, but just from, you know, watching the film, I just thought that was interesting.

Sabrina Van Tassel 32:18 It's just such a big drama. And, you know, let's not forget that that was 15 years ago, and that, you know, today, a lot of the things that were said at her trial would be junk science. You know, the DA, who did the ending statement, which DAs never do, except, you know, in Melissa Lucio's case, you know, said that, you know, explained that, you know, it was this Shaken Baby Syndrome, which could not have been since she was two and a half, and the Shaken Baby Syndrome would have, you know, broken her neck, which she didn't have. So, all that is junk science. And I think that if there was someone abusing in this family, it was definitely Alex; that she was fed up. And she didn't want to take care of the children, anymore. Do I think that Alex killed her? No, absolutely not. I think that, you know, she fell down the stairs. And it took her two days to die, because she had blunt head trauma. And she had coagulopathy. And, you know, her blood was not clotting anymore. And I think that that would have been something that today it would have probably, you know, taking her blood, you know, right away, and, you know, and basically found that out. All these years later, it's hard, it's hard to prove, but there's just nobody ever saw her being, you know, abusive to Mariah. There's nobody. So, you know...

Patrick Scott Armstrong 33:49 Or any of the children, right?

Sabrina Van Tassel 33:53 None of the kids.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 33:54 Yeah. Come on. I mean; yeah, right; totally. It's crazy.

Sabrina Van Tassel 33:58 None of the kids. Someone would have. I mean, she lived in a one bedroom apartment.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 34:04 Yeah.

Sabrina Van Tassel 34:05 There were, I think, seven boys in one room. And then the rest of the girls in another. I mean, you know, the older girls were bathing the little girl so, you know, if you see bruising, someone's gonna say something at some point to someone. Nothing. So, you know, it's just the entire case is just a drama and then all these years have gone by and now, you know, she's - it's really hard, I mean, she's been, you know, estranged from some of her children; some though are still there and, you know, and are fighting for her until the end. But, you know, it's really - you know, the thing is about Melissa is, you know, the bottom line is she was the mom, she was responsible. Doesn't matter the way you see it. If it was her daughter who had abused the kid, she was the mom. She should have done something, you know, whatever. You know, she's just the one to blame. And I think that's another, you know, big problem in our society is, you know, well, what about the fathers? Really? Really, the mothers have all that blame? Always? You know?

Patrick Scott Armstrong 35:24 That's a great point. That's a great point. Absolutely.

Sabrina Van Tassel 35:29 Yeah.

Matthew 35:31 Well, I think that's a good place to give our listeners a bit of a break. So, we'll be right back with Sabrina Van Tassel, writer and director of The State of Texas vs Melissa.

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Matthew 36:43 Welcome back to Factual America. I'm with award winning director Sabrina Van Tassel, who directed and executive produced The State of Texas vs Melissa. Festival release in 2020, out on Amazon Prime, and dropped on Hulu in April. I mean, one thing that struck me about the film, as I was watching it, and I think it's one of its great assets is every time you'd be going through, and I was like, well, she hasn't gotten so-and-so on camera, yet. And, lo and behold, that person would show up, you know, eventually, even the at best, incompetent defense attorney. The only one who doesn't show up on camera, at least for an on camera interview is the corrupt DA who's in prison.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 37:29 Villalobos.

Sabrina Van Tassel 37:30 That was hard to get!

Matthew 37:32 I can imagine it would have been!

Sabrina Van Tassel 37:34 Yeah.

Matthew 37:35 I mean, so you have this great access. I mean, I'm not trying to make this just purely, you know, try to change the tone or anything, but because I know, I mean, from what I understand trying to get access to death row inmates in the state of Texas is almost impossible. I mean, yet you've got...

Sabrina Van Tassel 37:49 Well, I'm very persistent.

Matthew 37:51 Okay.

Sabrina Van Tassel 37:54 I don't take no for an answer. And I had a lot of time. I not only directed this film, but I created my production company for this film. So, I had all the time in the world. And when you're doing a documentary, time, you know, is worth a lot of money. Really. You know, even the way you're directing, when you have the time to really, you know, think about what you're going to do. I mean, it's worth just so much. Peter Gilman took me a year-and-a-half. You know, her defense attorney. I mean, he did not answer any of my emails, never answered any of my phone calls. But since I was practically sleeping at the Brownsville courthouse, one day, you know, I saw him coming right at me. And I knew his face. I knew what he looked like. So, I said, 'Mr. Gilman!', it's, like, yes, I'm, like, 'Sabrina Van Tassel', and he was like, oh! You've got me. And I'm like, why? Why do you think that? Like, you know, why do you not want to speak to me? And he's like, that seems like a trap to me. That's what he said. Like, why would you feel that way, if you've done nothing wrong?

Patrick Scott Armstrong 39:16 Exactly. He would be like, yeah, let's try to get her out. Like, right, like, yeah, let's talk about it.

Sabrina Van Tassel 39:25 And really, you know, also, the way I edited the film, the interviews are quite long. And I don't know if you've noticed, but they're not edited. Because I wanted to show that I did not make these people say what they say. Peter Gilman, if you hear his one hour interview, it's like an hour and a half. You think he's the prosecutor.

Matthew 39:49 Yeah.

Sabrina Van Tassel 39:50 He has nothing nice to say about her.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 39:54 That's what my wife said- we watched the film together; that's what my wife said. She said, 'dude, he has nothing nice to about this - you'd think he would be in her corner.' That's what she said, right? Like, yeah, absolutely. I mean, he starts off with, at least in the film, right, she's not a good mother, blah, blah, blah. I mean, just yeah, I agree. It's...

Sabrina Van Tassel 40:12 It's quite, yeah, it was, you know, so I was just, like, listening. I wasn't aggressive in the interview, I just, you know, I just listened. I was just, like, wow, really? That's interesting. Then when I asked him, I said, you know, that's my, actually, my only question in the entire film. The only question that you hear in the film.

Matthew 40:34 Yeah.

Sabrina Van Tassel 40:35 When I said, you know, did you know that somebody else was abusive to Mariah? And he was like, uh, no, I don't know, yeah, maybe.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 40:43 Trust me, I wrote that down in my notes. I was like, oh, stuttering, defensive; that was like, red flag for me, right away. I didn't believe a word that guy said, just again, not to throw my personal beliefs in here. But just, like, every gut, you know, is going off, like gut check, just like, oh, this guy. I just didn't. I felt like he contradicted himself, even from the footage you showed in your film, because he mentioned that he didn't want to put the kids on the stand because he didn't think they were disciplined. But at the same time, he's also saying, I don't know if she's abused. Well, which is it? Are they being disciplined, and while that's happening, they're being abused? Or, they're not being disciplined? Like, what? What's going on? I don't know. I just felt like he, you know what I mean? It didn't seem like he even had the story in his head. It was...

Sabrina Van Tassel 41:35 Oh, he had no answer.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 41:37 Yeah, exactly.

Sabrina Van Tassel 41:37 I think I asked him seven times, at least, what was your strategy?

Patrick Scott Armstrong 41:41 Wow. Wow.

Sabrina Van Tassel 41:43 I said, okay, what was your strategy? He couldn't answer. He had no strategy. He didn't. I'm, like, what was it? Did you think that she fell? Did you think she was abused? Did you - he had no answer. He couldn't tell me. He had no clue.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 41:59 That totally makes sense.

Sabrina Van Tassel 42:01 He just had no clue. Yeah, and you know, he couldn't care less where she's at. I mean, none of these people really care less about, you know, where she's at. I mean, she's just an animal, basically.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 42:14 They all think she got...

Sabrina Van Tassel 42:15 One of the most dangerous women in Texas. That's why she's on death row. I mean, that's the thing, that people should also realize, if you're on death row, you're the most dangerous person in America. You're so dangerous, that you're separated from the rest of the carceral population, because, you know, you should not harm other prisoners. Now, really, do you really think after seeing the film, Melissa is a danger to other prisoners? I mean, just the entire thing is ridiculous. You know, it's really ridiculous. But, yeah, to answer your question, yeah, it was a lot of timing. It was a lot of persistence, just basically trying to get to, you know, even Daniella, her oldest daughter, it took me months to get a hold of her, have her speak to me, you know, find everybody. I mean, you know, they have been hurt very badly. So, you have to take your time and respect that, you know, and understand that, you know, they don't trust anybody, anymore. So, I basically, I think, created a bond with them in many ways. And, you know, I wasn't there to judge. I told them very, you know, that very often. Like, I'm not judging you. I'm not even judging the sisters who are not writing. A part of me understands. I think most people don't, you know, they say it, they're not in our shoes. And yes, they're not when you have someone on death row, and there's no hope anymore, and she's already dead, and she lives and her prison is eight hours away. For someone who doesn't have any money. I mean, you know, it's a big problem.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 44:09 How did they respond to the film- seeing it?

Sabrina Van Tassel 44:13 They responded to the film very well. Of course, there are some teams, you know, among the children. There is the one who are, you know, Team Melissa, and there's a one for Team Alex. So, the one for Team Alex thinks that, you know, well, mom is already where she's at, and she's gonna die, and let her, you know, let's just get rid of, you know, let's just get rid of her, and nothing happens to Alex. And that's drama in itself. But, you know, can you blame them? And the other side, are, you know, no, you know, we're with our mom, and, you know, we want her out and then there's all this conflict now among the family. You know, you didn't do this, you didn't do that, you know. It's a huge drama everywhere you see it. It is. And I just hope, I mean, the thing that I'm very happy about is that Melissa got so many letters from, you know, so many people after the film got released, and, you know who said, you know, told her, you know, we love you, we believe you. And that means the world to her. And she wants to fight, and she really wants to; she doesn't want to die. There is a misconception where they think that innocent death row prisoners really want to get it over with. Most don't. They want to live. They want to see their children again, they want to - they want to live. And they get, they even get used to death row, you know?

Patrick Scott Armstrong 45:52 Would you do a follow up? Would there be a follow-up film, potentially?

Sabrina Van Tassel 45:57 If she ever got out?

Patrick Scott Armstrong 45:58 Yeah.

Sabrina Van Tassel 45:59 Absolutely. Absolutely. Her chances of getting out are very slim. I was really hoping they would, you know, commute her sentence, at least, that she would be, you know, just in prison, allowed to, you know, have some, you know, physical contact at least, and have a meal with someone. Because when you're on death row, you're in solitary confinement. You don't share it at all. She hasn't been, you know, sharing a meal for 13 years. And once she is outside, she's outside alone. So, you know, a lot of people on death row go crazy. She hasn't. She still manages, I mean, she's so strong. And she writes a lot. And we write a lot to each other. And I'm just really hoping that, you know, someone, that the Supreme Court's going to hear it that, you know, Innocence Project, going to take the case, that some celebrities, they're going to, you know, start tweeting about her case, and something's gonna happen. I mean, you know, I'm just hoping, and even if that happens, doesn't mean that you know, she will ever be out.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 47:25 So, you think some celebrities sort of bring us some attention - you think that could help?

Sabrina Van Tassel 47:29 Absolutely. Absolutely. I think if - you know, Rodney Reed, Julius Jones, if it wasn't for the attention they got and, you know, some celebrity endorsements, they would already be executed by now.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 47:49 Well, what an impact that they could have, right? Well.

Sabrina Van Tassel 47:55 Yes, yes. So, you know, I'm not, you know, putting my hopes high on Governor Abbott. I mean, the only person that, you know, he commuted the sentence to was a white male, which I think is very interesting. And that was 20 years ago. So, I'm not, you know, thinking he's going to become a good person all of a sudden, you know, but yes, I mean, I'm hoping there's going to be a change of government, at least in Texas, that, you know, they are going to review all the cases of Armando Villalobos. Let's just start there.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 48:37 Absolutely. 100, right? Like, yeah, let's just start there. If you caught your bowling partner cheating, you would think every game before that, right? I mean, it just makes sense that you would just check his, all of his cases and - exactly, just starting there. There's no question. Oh, man, that's so frustrating.

Sabrina Van Tassel 48:59 Yeah.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 49:00 Right. It's so frustrating. I can't even imagine what it is for you; just as somebody watching it does make you...

Sabrina Van Tassel 49:07 It's been crazy. It's been crazy. So, every film selection, every news article, every, anything is great. Because, you know, it talks about her, and it talks about her case, and, you know, and that's great. It means that she's still alive, she's still there, and she's still there with us. But, you know, it takes so much energy just trying to, you know, reach out to people and trying to convince them and, you know, sometimes I'm, like, look, I'm just a filmmaker. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm a great investigator, and I can tell you that there's nothing in this case, just check it out. You know, just look, you know, look at it. But at the same time, there's so many cases like hers.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 49:54 Yeah.

Sabrina Van Tassel 49:55 And, you know, advocates are, you know, they tell you, yes, yes, but there's just so many.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 50:03 They're overwhelmed.

Sabrina Van Tassel 50:04 Yeah, they're overwhelmed. They are. Except that it's a very urgent case now. I mean, if the Supreme Court refuses to hear her case, she could have an execution date by October. So, this is serious.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 50:22 How soon usually, when they set an execution date, does it happen? Is it a couple of years? I, you know, I feel like I should know this as a Texan, but I don't...

Sabrina Van Tassel 50:30 It's 15 days.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 50:31 What, 15 days??

Sabrina Van Tassel 50:34 They can wait for, you know, to, you know, set, you know, to set the date. They could take six months, a year, whatever. But, you know, once they, you know, pick a date, it's 15 days, and then, you know, you have the board of pardons. So, we put a petition online, you know, asking, already, people to, you know, sign the petition for the board of pardons in case, you know, her case was not taken by the Supreme Court, to please watch the film, to, you know, because it's a different thing to watch a film and to read a case. You know, I don't know. I mean, it's just, it's going to be a long battle. But I promised her that, you know, I would be with her till the end. And I will. I wasn't expecting this in my life. Don't get me wrong.

Matthew 51:31 So, is this why you, I mean, if I counted correctly, is this why you've entered so many festivals? I think I saw 23 laurels in your press pack?

Sabrina Van Tassel 51:41 Yes.

Matthew 51:41 I mean, it's absolutely amazing.

Sabrina Van Tassel 51:43 I was just selected in two more over the weekend. So, yes.

Matthew 51:48 You're not gonna be able to even see the poster for the film anymore. It's just gonna be laurels everywhere.

Sabrina Van Tassel 51:53 I know. I know. Well, you know, the thing is, once if you get selected at film festivals, you know, it's like, you know, when you're not looking for a job anymore, you know, they come to you, and they say, you know, submit, you know, the film, we'll give you the waiver. So, you know, I was just like, yes, you know, and, yes, absolutely. Especially in times of COVID, when, you know, it was impossible for me to go and everything was going on online. I was like, you know, rather just like do that. But now I'm very excited about the fact of the film starting. It was very important for me that the film was, you know, would be released in the US, that's the most important thing. And now, the fact that it's going to be released worldwide, is also good, because, you know, I'm thinking, okay, you know, they're not embarrassed, clearly. You know, well, you know, let's have the film travel a little bit more, now, you know? Let's see how the rest of the world, you know, sees the situation. And yes, you're right, when you say that, you know, it's not the first film, and it won't be the last.

Matthew 53:00 Yeah.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 53:01 Yeah, absolutely.

Sabrina Van Tassel 53:02 But, you know, I guess all of us are trying to create awareness about a huge problem. There is, you know, a big problem with the justice system; this justice system, you know, is completely broken. I mean, a lot of people would say, actually, it was designed like this, was designed to put these kinds of people where they are at, you know, not going to go into that right now, but you know, I mean, it's a big problem. And so...

Patrick Scott Armstrong 53:36 They're very proud of that fact, right? Like even just watching the DA's commercial that you put in the film, right; it's all about more tough on crime: I got a 99% conviction rate I got - it's all about, you know, yes putting away the bad guys and there's nothing outside of that, right; it's all about being the sheriff with the badge and just getting people and Wild West still sort of mentality where it's not looking at these people as people that are going to go back into society, right? These are - a lot of them just they've made mistakes. I mean, going even outside of Melissa's, you know, situation, just anybody that's been bought into the court system. Just to our perspective, our lens onto what we look through is already wrong. We start off wrong. It's just, it's all bad. You know, that's again, not to put my personal opinion in but, again, the options that this young woman was laid out with, you know, so long ago, the options were wrong just to begin with. It's like, just a horrible system. You lose before you start...

Sabrina Van Tassel 54:44 Exactly. An eye for an eye. You know, Ghandi said something beautiful. He said, 'an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind'.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 54:53 Yeah, exactly.

Sabrina Van Tassel 54:56 I mean, I don't know how... you know, what a better way to put it.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 55:01 Well, the courtroom cheering when it's, like, we're about to put a woman to death. Yay! What? This is where - where are we at? You know, when that happens. That's just a little just disturbing to think...

Sabrina Van Tassel 55:14 Yeah, it is.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 55:15 Right. Like, I get that you may, if you're, I don't wanna say happy is the word but you're okay with the justice that you think got served, right? But at the same time, some sort of remorse of - look at to the extent of what we have to do to get that justice; we've got to take this woman's life. And they're, they're joyful about that. And that's crazy. That's like going to see when people used to get hung and going to the town square, like, with popcorn and, right? Like, that was the thing, like, that's so - it's insane. It just lives in a different way now.

Sabrina Van Tassel 55:48 Yes, I absolutely agree with you. I mean, I think we got it all wrong. And, you know, when I speak to people, they're like, yeah, but you know, some people no mercy, you know, let's just shoot them. And I'm like, well, that's just not the way it goes. It's gonna take years, it's gonna take 30 years; it's gonna cost you a lot of money. You're worried about your money as a taxpayer? You know, I mean, death row is the wrong answer. It costs millions. You know...

Patrick Scott Armstrong 56:23 That's a good point. That's a great point.

Sabrina Van Tassel 56:25 I mean, what, you know, it's just not true. It's just not true. And in a system where right now, how many people are wrongly convicted? And, you know, we found that out what, every month, every month, we have something. You have Google Alerts, right? Someone, oh, yeah, was in prison 37 years ago, was proven innocent. Oh, that guy was executed four months ago. Oh, but you know what? The DNA, it's not his DNA. Okay, you know. We have a problem, and in a judicial system like this, where, you know, there's just such a problem, you can't have the death penalty. Whatever way you want to see it. You just can't. And that's why it needs to be banned. That's it.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 57:15 That's my personal opinion as well. Yeah. For everyone else listening or watching, you know, obviously.

Matthew 57:22 Well, I mean, that's what changed hearts and minds. I mean, this is years ago now, because you're saying it's gonna take 30 years; well, we were saying things like this 30 years ago. It's still happening. The, you know, the Governor of Illinois, he was a proponent of the death penalty. They had enough of these wrongful conviction cases that that's when he put the moratorium on it. I am not sure if it's still a moratorium, you know, there's a lot of states where they haven't abolished it yet, but they do have a moratorium. But, you know, I think, you know, we've got members of - I don't know, it's hard to see how this is going to change. Because I think, as you say, this is - the word drama, dramatic has been used quite a bit; it's a tragedy, isn't it? And I think these - even if this poor, little girl Mariah had not died, they were already in tragic situation, and they were already in a very difficult place. And, you know, I think this, you know, giving people the resources, they need to have a fair shake. As much as I agree, they should have it and more so... I don't know; again, it's the frustration for you, as a filmmaker, you are there to shine a light on this and let people see it and come to their conclusions. But there's just, you know, there's just how do you create this public outcry? There's, you know, because I think for the most people, Patrick you're - I'm here living in the UK, but you're in Texas - there's not a - even if the average person would say, look, yeah, I've seen the evidence, this now looks like someone, something wrong has happened here. Most people aren't thinking about the little guy, or the little girl, however, you want to look at it in terms of these situations, it's kind of far removed, it's not affect- they think it doesn't affect them. So, there's just not this political wave we're forced to do, unfortunately, to change things.

Sabrina Van Tassel 57:51 But I don't agree with that.

Matthew 59:36 You don't?

Sabrina Van Tassel 59:37 No, I don't.

Matthew 59:40 So, how do you think it is? I mean, thank you for making this film. I very much appreciate it. You know, that's very much appreciated, but how do you...

Sabrina Van Tassel 59:48 I believe that, you know, strongly that Melissa would have already been executed. If I had not done that film. So, that's what I believe in.

Matthew 1:00:02 And I agree with...

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:00:03 Second of all, I know that, you know, there was - she had a page, I think, where there was 200 people on the page. Now there are 1000s. And she's receiving letters from all over the US, and people are fed up. They're not only fed up about, you know, they're fed up about so many things. Look what happened with Black Lives Matter. Look what happened, you know, you talk about police brutality, let's talk about, you know, the judicial system's brutality, you know, which is huge. People are fed up. And, you know, that's another case, where they're seeing this, and they're like, okay, again, you know, how many are there? You know, so I really believe in the American dream for that. That, you know, yes, people will make a difference that people will advocate, there's just amazing people out there, who are doing a tremendous job, advocating, and, you know, wanting to end the death penalty. Look what happened in Virginia. I mean, they just, you know, ended the death penalty in Virginia. I mean, that's just, you know, that was a couple of months ago. That's unbelievable. And, you know, I believe that one day, that's going to happen in Texas, believe it or not. It will. It might take a little longer but, you know, it will, and that's why, you know, we need to keep the fight, and we need to do films like this.

Matthew 1:01:34 I guess what I was getting at is what, maybe look at it this way, a different way. What would you suggest people who feel this way, and I'm - have been against the death penalty for as- certainly as long as I can remember. What do people need to do? Because... What would you suggest? You know, what, you know, and thank you for making this film.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:01:58 Well, you have social media, right? You have Twitter, and you have Instagram, and you have Facebook. How about, you know, sharing her face? How about sharing the petition? How about, you know, there's a GoFundMe page, you know, try to put some monies for so that her children go and visit her, because she might not have a whole lot of time left; how about, you know, writing the governor's. How about, you know, making noise. Because that's, you know, what works at the end of the day. And I think we have amazing tools, now. More than we used to, right, with social media, there's so many things we can do. And I think a lot of things are changing because of it. And so, well, I'm optimistic. I believe that there's a lot; I believe we can change things. And I believe that, you know, Melissa will not... I believe strongly that Melissa will not be executed. I do. I think there's just been so many things happening. I mean, I have great faith, that something's gonna happen for her.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:02:10 At the very least another trial, right? Like something. I mean, that's what I don't get either. Like, at the very least, even if you think, yeah, she's guilty- look, the DA was arrested for 30. We need to retrial, you know, this needs to be retried. Like, without a doubt, whether you agree with it or not, right? Like even that, so yeah, I'm with you. I mean, this is, it's just insane. I love your energy, by the way, I just gotta say that I love your energy.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:03:13 Thank you.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:03:32 Much respect, like, your passion for, like, I'm Latin I got that passion, like, I feel - like I'm sitting, my blood is boiling, like, I want to jump out of this chair, and like, I'm with you. Like, I get it. You're right. It's what we need to push. It's what people need to do. And it's how things get done. If you don't think it's ever going to change, it won't.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:03:52 So, right, it won't. And I think you're right; I think you're, you know, just a little side thing is, you know, you made this point about it's not financially, right, beneficial to do it. That's, you know, and then, you know, again, not to take the emotion out of it, but that's a great way to reach conservatives in some way to get them to change their mind sometimes, right? Like, sometimes it's just let's get, you know, however we can get them to change their mind about it. Maybe that's another way to push, too, as well.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:03:53 It won't.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:04:01 It's quite strange, right? That they have not look at it. Because you know, when you have a case on death row, it's ongoing. And all the people on death row are indigence. So, it's a good like, $200,000 a year until they're executed. Do the math. You don't want to pay for these people. You want them dead?

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:04:51 You know what the saying is a bullet cost two cents, right? That's what they say, right? Like, that's, I mean, I'm not trying, I mean, I'm just being real. They say that in Texas, here; I hate it, you know, but it's what they say; that's what you'll hear a conservative say here, right? And it's like, but they're not looking at the whole thing, they probably just don't know. That's what I'm saying. Like, I feel like liberals and you know, the left here, myself included, like, we need to push that narrative even a little bit more, which I never, I remember, I remember hearing that a long time ago, it just kind of slipped away because it's not talked about enough, but you're right. I think just hitting it from different angles, to get people to realize, yeah, to get people to realize this is not the way to go.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:05:26 A death row case costs millions to the state, and then, you know, then you need to pay for the lawyers. And that's a good 200,000 a year at least, until they're executed, and that goes until their execution date. And then you need to, you know, build a separate, you know, space in the prison with special wardens. I mean, just the entire thing costs so much money. I mean, it's just ridiculous. So, if you're thinking about the money, I mean, you know, for sure death row is not what you want. But I think that what we need right now is we need Joe Biden to actually, you know, put an end to the federal death penalty; that would be a great signal. And then we need, you know, all the states to basically follow up, you know, I mean, that's one thing we need.

Matthew 1:06:22 All right.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:06:22 Like it.

Matthew 1:06:24 Well, and just to say that, I think Melissa is very fortunate for you to have found her. Actually.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:06:33 I was very fortunate to have found her, too.

Matthew 1:06:35 Yeah.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:06:36 I agree with both of that. Absolutely. Both of y'all, right, like, absolutely. 100% Wow, that's awesome.

Matthew 1:06:43 So, what's next for you, Sabrina?

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:06:48 Well...

Matthew 1:06:48 After all this

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:06:49 Still very much involved, as you know, as you heard, I'm doing another film right now about guns in America. And I'm preparing a new feature about the, you know, Indian world, you know, Native Americans, and you know, what they suffer as well. I guess, you know, I mean, a lot of things that I do, I mean, I'm trying to be a messenger for, you know, people who have no voice. So, that's what I try to do... and finding a public for that.

Matthew 1:07:25 Yes. And you, I mean, I think self-described as a French-American journalist and documentarian. But, I mean, my podcast is sponsored by Alamo Pictures, which does docs about America from more of a European perspective. What does that add to you, do you think? Does it give you a sense of insight that you don't think maybe even American documentarians have, even though they will have touched on these subjects?

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:07:57 Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm really like, you know, my mom is French, my dad's American. I grew up in both countries. I vote in both. My family was very involved in politics in the US, you know, my grandfather, went in front of, you know, the McCarthy committee. So, you know, I mean, it was a big deal. So, just being, you know, seeing things from - I see things from a different point of view, right. I mean, being French, as well, and seeing how, you know, they deal with problems. And, you know, how in the US, you know, we deal with problems. I mean, has certainly given me a lot of, well, I'm guess I'm seeing things in a different way, and it's easier for me to kind of expose them. Yeah, definitely. And trying to have also the world understand. Because you see, I mean, when you're European, coming to the US, of the difference between, you know, what's federal, and what's state and, you know, and the justice system, which is so, so, you know, different, and so many things, you know, the fact that, you know, we are socialist countries, you know, and that we have free, you know, health care, and all these things and that in the US, you don't; it's very different. The thing that I can say, though, is Americans what I like about it, and that we lack, I think, in Europe is that, you know, there's a lot of people who really want to make a difference, and who want to change the world in a very genuine way. You know, what I mean, saying, you know, you know what, we're going to do this, we're going to fight against this, we're going to get united, and we're going to do all this, you know, and as Europeans, we don't have that; we're lacking that. We're a little like, yeah, right, you know, it's not going to make any difference, anyway, why bother? So, you know, that's the difference. So, there's good and there's bad. And I guess being European and you know, living abroad, you know, gives me that, you know, that perspective.

Matthew 1:10:23 And then as a, I mean, you've made scores of documentary films.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:10:29 Yeah, a lot.

Matthew 1:10:29 How have you, I mean, do you work as an independent? Because I think, how do you...

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:10:35 Yeah, I do.

Matthew 1:10:36 How do you manage this? It's quite... any advice you'd have for anyone starting out? Because it's quite a challenge to try to, well, you know, to have achieved what you've achieved, is quite, quite impressive. How do you? How do you - what's driving you?

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:10:57 Injustice! I think we're all good at something, right? And my advice to other filmmakers, if you want to be in documentary, is that you need to find the little something that you have, that, you know, is different from the rest, you know? And I guess for me, I mean, having that dual culture definitely helped. Because I was like, yeah, I got this, I'll explain it to you. You don't get it? No, no problem, I'll explain to you. Yeah. And also being driven. I mean, I was always an independent. I never worked for a production company...

Matthew 1:11:45 Or broadcaster, or anything.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:11:47 No, I was always, you know, independent. Most of the films that I did, were produced by networks, you know, they were already, you know, it'd be like, you know, you want to do this, go ahead, you know, whatever. But I was always very driven, in what I wanted to do, the topics I wanted to do. I never really, or almost never did something that I didn't like. And I think I was very fortunate in doing so. I think accepting to do something that is not you, you know, might seem like a good idea at the beginning, because you need to work. But in the long run is not a good idea, because, you know, you're just going to go in the wrong path. And also, I mean, I was so determined, at the very beginning, when I started my career that, you know, even if I wasn't paid, it was, you know, it wasn't a problem for me. I was, like, you know, I just want to do this. And so a lot of the big, I mean, some of the, my, you know, big films, I mean, the ones where I spent years - for some I just did, you know, for the networks and, you know, it went really fast - and some you know, I really, you know, gave my heart, you know, to them, those were a necessity. They were something that I needed to do; a story I needed to tell. And usually, you know, you see it, you feel it when you see a film, or you see something, like, you feel it, you know what I mean?

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:13:30 I do. Yeah. I do.

Matthew 1:13:35 But I mean, exactly, and I think it's a, you know - you could say it almost about any profession, you need to have that drive, you need to have that passion. And for what you're doing, I think, too; I'll put my hand up, I've certainly sold out, if you will, and done things that I thought, well, I got to get shoes on the kids feet, but did it, actually; it ended up being a dead end, really, when you go in that direction, if it's not true to - it sounds cheesy, but true to who you are, you know, I mean, I think you've just - you can make justifications for these things, and then it ends up five years down the line. You're wondering, why did I do that?

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:14:15 Why am I doing this? Yeah.

Matthew 1:14:16 Why am I doing this? You know, exactly. And, I mean, that's, I think what was also I mean, I guess probably I don't know, I guess we're - it's been lovely to chat with you. And we've been on for a little while now, but this - you, I think it was mentioned elsewhere, you purposely wanted to make a cinematic film, and you've achieved that. Shall we give some shout-outs to some of your, like your director of photography and stuff. I mean, it is a beautiful film that you've made.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:14:54 Yes. We've been working together for so many years. 15, actually. He's directed. He did...

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:15:04 Yes, Cyril Thomas.

Matthew 1:15:04 This is Cyril Thomas.

Matthew 1:15:07 Yeah.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:15:08 He worked on almost every single film, I did. And we know each other so well, and he has the - not only is he an amazing DP - but he has this amazing empathy. And he's someone that I can bring, and I know that he will listen to people, even if it takes, you know, hours, and he will stay for dinner if they invite us, and, you know, all these things and that's very important. I mean, you know... don't go into documentary if you don't like people, basically. That's my advice. If you're not interested in human beings, don't do this.

Matthew 1:15:52 Yeah.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:15:53 Do something else, you know.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:15:55 That's like a chef who hates food.

Matthew 1:15:57 Yeah, exactly.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:15:59 That's the bottom line. And he's just an amazing human being, like that. And he understands. He's very smart in the way he films and, I think, yeah, his work is pretty phenomenal, isn't it?

Matthew 1:16:13 Yeah, no, I thought it was - and having South Texas roots myself - I thought you captured it brilliantly.

Matthew 1:16:13 Yeah.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:16:13 Yeah.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:16:22 Oh, that's Texas.

Matthew 1:16:24 That's Texas. That sunlight.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:16:25 Look, I'm here y'all, okay, I'm telling y'all, that's Texas.

Matthew 1:16:27 But you're from Dallas!

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:16:29 Hey, listen; Texas is Texas.

Matthew 1:16:32 No, South Texas is very different.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:16:34 Alright, there are different parts, of course.

Matthew 1:16:36 But, and then also, I mean, I wasn't meaning to imply...

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:16:40 I've taken the bus through there, by the way, I don't know if y'all have driven through. I've taken buses straight to Mexico City from Dallas. I've been through all different parts. Oh, yeah. Lots of times.

Matthew 1:16:51 I was supposed to take a bus to Monterrey, once...

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:16:52 When I was a kid, we did that very, very often, I'm not gonna lie, I think when I was about 30, so about 10 years ago, when I lived in Mexico in Veracruz, that was the last time I did it, because it was pretty dangerous, actually, going across. So, yeah, I was like, okay, I'm not doing that again.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:17:02 It's such a flat country. It's such a flat state, right?

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:17:13 Sure. That part of it, yeah, the north but once you - like, my family's from Mexico City, so that part, La Montaña, you know, it's, right, it's deep in the valley. You've got - yeah, it's why there's so much smog. Well, I could go on. Mexico doesn't get enough credit for actually how beautiful the country is, how much countryside and waterfalls and mountains and, you know, it's such a beautiful country that doesn't get explored enough or talked about enough. Sorry, not to change the subject.

Matthew 1:17:42 No, no, I think it's, I mean, partly - talking about being evocative, is the other thing is not too many death row docs have their own soundtrack. And I think that was also well done, in terms of - who is it? Is it Christophe La Pinta?

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:18:00 Christophe is a very well known film composer here in France. We met at a film festival. I had done a previous film about Drancy, which is a concentration camp in France, which has now been turned into social housing. So...

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:18:21 Oh, wow.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:18:22 I did a documentary about that. That was interesting. And he saw my film, and I heard his music. And, you know, he said to me, I'd love to work with you. And then, shortly before I started The State of Texas vs Melissa, he called me and he said, hey, how about we work together? So, I went to see him at his studio, and I was just like, you know what, that's a great idea. I don't have the money [Laughter]. And he's like, you know... yeah.

Matthew 1:19:01 'This is not a problem!'.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:19:03 'Sign me up'! Yeah.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:19:07 I don't have anything.

Matthew 1:19:09 So, he said he negotiated 50% of the back end or something, but no...

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:19:13 Yeah. So, he said to me, listen, I'll keep the rights. And I'll do the music. And you'll just pay for the mix, basically.

Matthew 1:19:26 Wow.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:19:26 I was, like, okay, and then he - I would basically send him, you know, part of the editing and then he would just compose on it. And he was quite amazing. And then one day, he calls me and he's, like, do you know about Dominic Miller? And I'm like, no, he's like well, you know, he's one of the most famous, you know, guitar player right now. He is Sting's, you know Sting, lead guitar player, and he, you know, composed Shape of my Heart. And I was like, right, and he said, well, you know what, he's going to do the guitar on your film. So, I was like, okay, and then the guy was, like, on tour. And he was only two days in Paris because he's married to a French woman, and he came to the studio. And, you know, he just took his guitars and just, you know, put the guitars on the music. So, I had, like, a lot of these little angels, you know, on my path, which also told me because I believe in that strongly when I'm making the film, sometimes all the doors close, and sometimes they open. And I believe in that, you know, I sometimes believe that, you know, what, maybe this story needs to be told, you know, maybe we need to do this. Some films happen, and some don't. And when, really, it's too hard to make a film when it's just, you know, it's impossible, you know, now I just give up on, like, you know what, universe doesn't want me to do it? I gotta fight anymore, you know, but, you know, for this film, you know, it was like, it was open. That's why, you know, I strongly believe that, you know, it's not over.

Matthew 1:21:14 Yeah.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:21:15 It's not.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:21:16 No.

Matthew 1:21:17 No, it's not.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:21:19 No, it's not.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:21:20 We'll talk about it.

Matthew 1:21:21 Yes. If we haven't scared you off, we'll love to have you back on, especially if things go hopefully, as they do. And, yeah, it would be a great, you talk about a follow up, we'd love to do a follow up, if that happens as well. So...

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:21:41 If Texas ever allows me to come back.

Matthew 1:21:44 Oh, you; ah, don't be silly. You can. They don't check anyone at the airport there!

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:21:52 It's a big state. It's a big state.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:21:54 It's a big state; it's a big state, and incredible...

Matthew 1:21:56 Believe me, you can get lost there pretty easily.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:21:58 ... how diverse it is, and, you know.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:22:01 Oh, yeah.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:22:02 And soon you guys are going to turn blue. So, you know, that's going to be nice.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:22:07 I think we're right... we're close. There's a lot of people getting scared. I'm like, let's finally, that's what I said, finally let's do this, because I love this state. But there's definitely some things about it that are uncomfortable. You know, it's funny not to take away, but, like, when I lived in Spain for a few years, I remember that the only conversation people want to have with me was about Texas's death penalty. That was it. That's what people - find out I'm from Texas, bam; that's all we're talking about the rest of the night is why we have the death penalty. You know, so it's a big, that's a bigger conversation, than, I think Americans even realize.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:22:47 Yeah, that's true.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:22:49 So, yeah, I'm glad you did this film. And I'm glad Melissa has you, like, I was mentioning earlier, and... yeah, here to support it. So, I'll do what I can, for sure.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:23:01 Thank you so much.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:23:01 I give you that promise to myself or indeed to you and to Melissa and her family.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:23:06 Thank you so much.

Matthew 1:23:07 Well, and thank you. It's very, very much appreciated you coming on, and it's been lovely to talk with you.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:23:13 Likewise.

Matthew 1:23:13 And you still got a little bit of time left in the Paris evening. So, do hope you have a great rest of the day, and we'll be in touch soon.

Sabrina Van Tassel 1:23:26 Great. Thank you so much.

Patrick Scott Armstrong 1:23:28 Thank you, Sabrina.

Matthew 1:23:30 First of all, I'd like to say thanks to our special guest, Patrick Scott Armstrong of the Lone Star Plate podcast. Definitely check out his show whether it be on traditional podcasting channels or YouTube. His most recent episode is with Stephen Tobolowsky and is definitely not to be missed.

Advertisement 1:23:46 If you have any questions regarding how you can become a documentary director and producer like Sabrina Van Tassel, or other roles in the industry, I recommend you check out careersinfilm.com to learn more about careers in the film industry.

Matthew 1:24:00 A shout out to Sam and Joe at Innersound Audio in Escrick, England. And a big thanks to Nevena Paunovic, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting such great guests like Sabrina onto the show. Finally, a big thanks to our listeners. As always, we'd love to hear from you. So, please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas. Whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. And please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.

Factual America Outro 1:24:34 You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures, specializing in documentaries, television, and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests, and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter @alamopictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films, and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk

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The State of Texas vs. Melissa: The Death Penalty's Problems

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The State of Texas vs. Melissa: The Death Penalty's Problems

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More From Factual America:

Interesting Reading from Factual America:

Transcript for Factual America Episode 67 - The State of Texas vs. Melissa: The Death Penalty's Problems

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