MMA’s Unbreakable Tatiana Suarez | Fighting for her Life in the UFC | Q&A with Cassius Corrigan
Tatiana Suarez was born into poverty, endured a “tumultuous [and] traumatic childhood”, and at school chose to compete in a sport – wrestling – that led to her being relentlessly bullied. She overcame every obstacle that life and people put in front of her and became a champion. And not just once, but multiple times. Finally, the greatest prize of all, Olympic glory, lay within her grasp.
And then, she broke her neck.
And as that was being treated, doctors discovered that Tatiana had cancer.
In The Unbreakable Tatiana Suarez, Cassius Corrigan tells the story of how Tatiana overcame these seemingly insurmountable setbacks to achieve even greater success than before: with her neck injury meaning that Tatiana could no longer wrestle, she became instead a Mixed Martial Arts fighter. And with the absolute determination and drive to succeed that has characterised her life’s journey so far, she has beaten the hardest opponents, and won the toughest competitions.
In this episode of Factual America, Matthew Sherwood discusses with Cassius Tatiana’s incredible life. We meet Tatiana the wrestling pioneer for both girls and Latinas, Tatiana the inheritor of a strong mindedness that will not brook denial, and Tatiana who remains the great “What If” of wrestling and MMA despite her achievements. Cassius also explores Tatiana’s family background and extraordinary work ethic. It has made her an icon of one of the most dangerous sports in the world.
“... look at what Tatiana is risking every day... this is one of the greatest stories I've ever encountered in sport. I was willing to do whatever it took to bring it to life.” – Cassius Corrigan
Time Stamps
00:00 – Trailer for The Unbreakable Tatiana Suarez
02:14 - Introducing this episode’s guest, Cassius Corrigan, and his film, The Unbreakable Tatiana Corrigan
04:08 – Cassius explains what The Unbreakable Tatiana Suarez is about
09:43 – What Tatiana means for wrestling and Mixed Martial Arts (MMA)
13:36 – What drives Tatiana
14:42 – Tatiana’s family background
17:34 – Tatiana Suarez: the biggest ‘What If’ in wrestling and MMA
19:34 – What will Tatiana do after her sporting career finishes
22:02 – How Cassius came to make The Unbreakable Tatiana Suarez
28:34 – Cassius describes how making the film ‘left a mark on my soul’
30:25 – MMA: Reality vs Misconceptions
33:49 – The mental complexity of Mixed Martial Arts
35:07 – The dangers that MMA fighters have to face
36:54 – Northview High School in Covina, California
40:31 – What next for Cassius
Resources:
The Unbreakable Tatiana Suarez
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Cassius Corrigan
More from Factual America:
Arnold: Exploring Schwarzenegger‘s Three Lives
Killer Sally
Mike Tyson: The Truth Behind the Knockouts
Transcript for Factual America Episode 154: The Harder They Come, The Stronger They Rise: The Unbreakable Tatiana Suarez
Matthew Sherwood 00:00 (02:14)
This is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. The Unbreakable Tatiana Suarez chronicles the exceptional spirit and drive of the Mixed Martial Arts fighter of the same name as she prepares to re-enter the cage after nearly four years away from this gruelling sport. Join us as we talk with the writer and director Cassius Corrigan about Tatiana's journey from wrestling prodigy to professional athlete and the legacy she leaves young women, particularly those in the Latina community. Stay tuned.
Matthew Sherwood 00:41
Cassius Corrigan, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?
Cassius Corrigan 00:46
It's going great. I'm happy to be here, and couldn't be happier to talk more about this documentary.
Matthew Sherwood 00:52
Yeah, we couldn't be happier to talk about this documentary. Just to remind our listeners and viewers we're talking about The Unbreakable Tatiana Suarez, already released on HBO. This is now - what's today - February 7, so it got released, I think, late last month. It's streaming on Max. Don't know if it's anywhere else yet but I imagine what filmmakers always tell me is, there're plans in the work to bring it to other regions. So, if you're not in the US or North America do be on the lookout for it. Congratulations, great to have you on. 'Inspirational' gets thrown around too much these days, but I can say this is truly an inspirational film. So, I've had the privilege of seeing it and thank you again for making this. Maybe you can start us off. That's how we usually start here is just - tell us what is The Unbreakable Tatiana Suarez all about. Maybe you can give us a synopsis.
Cassius Corrigan 01:48 (4:08)
So, The Unbreakable Tatiana Suarez tells the truly incredible story of a Mexican-American girl from Covina, California, about an hour outside of LA, who grew up in a trailer park, had a very tumultuous, traumatic childhood, and discovered wrestling, became obsessed with it, was wrestling at a time where girls didn't wrestle, and she was wrestling against boys. And she was bullied relentlessly, not only by the boys she was competing with and beating, but their parents and their fathers. And so, from a very young age, she was told she didn't belong in that sport, despite loving it and kind of having it as her outlet, her escape from all the difficult things she was going through at home, and became this prodigy, this sensation. Was a 12 time national champion in high school, she competed in three different divisions, and won all of them, each of her four years of high school. Was the first Latina ever recruited to the US Olympic wrestling team, and was considered the future of Team USA. She won a bronze medal at the World Championships as a 17 year old, which is unprecedented, and everyone was just looking at her as someone who was going to dominate the sport for years and multiple Olympic cycles. And then, in a tragic sort of twist of fate leading up to the 2012 Olympics, she suffered a catastrophic neck injury that left her temporarily paralysed. And when they were trying to figure out exactly what happened to her neck, they were doing MRIs and X rays, they discovered not only that she had this, you know, really severe neck injury that was so bad and likely to lead her to paralysis were she to continue wrestling, that it forced her medical retirement from the sport. But if that wasn't enough, they also discovered that she had thyroid cancer. Completely unrelated to the neck injury. So, at 19 - 20 years old, on the brink of achieving, you know, her life's dream, her life's purpose, competing in the Olympics, winning in the Olympics, not only did she have the entire sport taken from her, her identity taken from her, but now she's also in a fight for her life. So, thus begins a four-year journey battling depression, suicidal thoughts, trying to rediscover who she is without wrestling. And once she beats cancer after having her entire thyroid and a lot of her lymph nodes taken out, she just says, You know, what, if I can't wrestle, then, you know, fuck them. You know, I told myself I was going to be a world champion, and nothing's gonna stop me. Not cancer, not a broken neck, not the fear of paralysis. And I guess I'm just going to have to pursue it in a new sport, and she picked Mixed Martial Arts, cage fighting. And the story of the documentary is...
Matthew Sherwood 04:42
As you do!
Cassius Corrigan 04:43
Yeah, right?! So, I'll try [not] to go at length here, but basically, she reinvented herself as a Mixed Martial Artist, became an undefeated MMA fighter, and won the most difficult MMA tournament in the world called The Ultimate Fighter that the UFC puts on. And in the documentary not only do we tell all this backstory with, you know, really moving detail and layers and nuances that you wouldn't expect, but we also follow her as she embarks on her second multi-year injury comeback. You could look at Tatiana as almost the unluckiest, you know, prodigy in the sport and she's looked at as the greatest 'What If' in the history of the sport, and we follow her on her ultimately triumphant return to the very top and her proving that she's one of the best fighters on the planet.
Matthew Sherwood 05:36
Okay. And - so, for those not fam - so - that's the film, that is indeed the film, and you've put it very well. Except I think it's even more inspirational than that. I think - for those not familiar with Mixed Martial Arts, UFC, I mean, what is she - I mean, what does she mean for the - well, I do have a lot of questions about that, because one thing I want to say, most documentaries we get on here, I will have known something about the subject matter, something even tangential. I knew nothing about women's wrestling. I knew nothing about MMA, I knew nothing about UFC. And that's, I found it incredibly eye opening in its - so, it shows a window not only just Tatiana's life, but on that sport, and things that have been going on, and trends of the last few decades. I mean, what does she - what does she mean for the sport? I mean - and how is, you know, this - is this something that the fans of the sport are very well aware of, or is she, you know, is - you know, maybe you can put her in the context of what she means for MMA and UFC.
Cassius Corrigan 06:54
Absolutely. And just to - I'm happy to answer that, but quickly, I'm remembering something that you mentioned earlier, it should be - this documentary is an HBO Original, so it's on Max. And it should be available in most territories in the world. I know it's - it is streaming in the UK, because I have a friend of the UK...
Matthew Sherwood 07:12
Oh, good news.
Cassius Corrigan 07:12
... send me a video of it. It's even in Israel and Hebrew. So, I mean, it's definitely available internationally for those...
Matthew Sherwood 07:18
Okay.
Cassius Corrigan 07:19
... who want to check it out.
Matthew Sherwood 07:20
Thanks for clarifying that.
Cassius Corrigan 07:22 (09:42)
Absolutely. To get back to your question, what does she represent in the sport. It's a really good question, because we're shining a light on two sports in the documentary. The first sport that she became one of the best in the world at, which is wrestling, and then the second is Mixed Martial Arts. And both of them fall under the broader category of what's called combat sports. Those are sports that are extremely physical, you know, there're aspects of American Football that might qualify even though it's not technically a combat sport. But Tatiana is really significant as a pioneer of girls' wrestling, so when Tatiana who's 32 or 33, I think she just turned 33, when she was growing up, girls didn't wrestle. So, like, wrestling was just a boys' sport. And, like, the very small handful of girls who wanted to participate just had to compete against boys because there were no other girls in the sport. Tatiana's unbelievable success in the sport was part of a wave of sort of the first generation of female wrestlers that has led to this explosion in popularity in girls' wrestling. It's actually the fastest growing sport in the United States now. The school - she happened to be in a school district and at a school called Northview. That's a meaningful part of our documentary, that embraced girls' wrestling very early on. And when they start, by the time Tatiana was in high school, there were maybe five schools in her district that participated in girls' wrestling. For context, now, 15 years later, there are over 100. So, it's this exponentially growing sport. And another feature that's interesting about it is that it's heavily - there's a very strong over-representation of Latinas in the sport. California is a huge state for wrestling. There's a strong, particularly Mexican, population in California and Tatiana as a Latina is really looked at as a pioneer in the sport, and somebody that a lot of these girls and people look up to. But what's interesting is that she's - on the MMA side - looked at in this, you know, there's this commonality between the two sports and that she's considered the greatest 'What If', for both of those sports. When she was on the US Olympic team, she was, before she got injured, she was - it's divided by weight class, right, so every one on each team, you have different girls that compete at different weight classes. So, she was number one in her weight class. The girl that she would consistently beat, who then took over the number one spot when Tatiana got injured is a woman named Helen Maroulis, who went on to become maybe the greatest American female wrestler ever, maybe the greatest female wrestler ever, with multiple Olympic gold medals. So, then you wonder, well, if Tatiana was better than her, what would she have done in the sport. And then you follow her over now to MMA, and she similarly has beaten multiple former World Champions, not just beaten them, finish them. And even one of the current champions is someone that she nearly choked unconscious, and finished earlier in her career. So, it's the kind of story that it's like, the greatest 'What If', and at the heart of it is this girl who's just - every obstacle you could ever imagine life throwing at you, she's had it, man. From a dad who abandoned her on her birthday at seven years old, to a traumatic sort of abusive childhood, you know, to be told she doesn't belong, cancer, a broken neck, other major injuries, and you - by the end, you're just screaming for her to get the recognition that she deserves. And then the amazing part is that she delivers.
Matthew Sherwood 10:50
Yeah. What drives her? I mean, a former wrestling coach says she has this need to win versus this desire - a lot of people have a desire to win, she has a need to win. But what - I mean, many people - you could say everything she's been through, but a lot of people would be faced off hurdles like that, and just some would be right to give up, right? What keeps her going? It's absolutely amazing.
Cassius Corrigan 11:16 (13:36)
It's a great question. And that was one of my main curiosities that led me to want to make this documentary. When I first discovered her story, just the unbelievable, like, cancer, broken neck double whammy, and then to reinvent yourself as one of the best fighters in the world. I was like, That's crazy. Who is this person? What does that look like? As I became more familiar with her story, that question you just asked, what drives - like, what is inside someone's head that in their psychology that would enable them to do something like this, sort of want to do something like this. And what we discovered in the four-and-a-half years that I've been making this documentary is that she, she comes from a lineage of very strong minded, some might say stubborn, women who are - when they want to do something they just will not be denied. That's part of - I think, like, one of the surprises that I've been getting truly the most humbling and incredible feedback on this project. And one of the things that people are surprised by is the depth of the emotional resonance of her family story.
Matthew Sherwood 12:22
Yes.
Cassius Corrigan 12:22 (14:42)
For context, her mom, her mom was 15 years old when she got pregnant with Tatiana's older brother, Chris. And, you know, her parents wanted her to abort the child so that she could continue, you know, becoming an adult and going to school and having a normal life. But at 15, Tatiana's mom, stubborn as she is, had this feeling of No, I want to have this child, and even if you're threatening to kick me out of the house, and I'm going to have to figure out how to be a 15 year old, single mother on my own, high school dropout, like, I'll figure out how to do that. So, this is - it's part of her DNA that there's that stubbornness. But then there's a really complicated and powerful mother-daughter dynamic between Tatiana and her mom that's definitely at the heart of her psychology. She says at one point in one of the interviews, and this was something that really struck me, her mom sacrificed a lot, tremendous amount for Tatiana to have the opportunities to wrestle when girls didn't wrestle. But at the same time, she was extremely hard on Tatiana and her siblings. So that, you know, to kind of prove to the world that she made the right choice to not abort her children and to have a family starting so young, and she - so she really wanted them to win and dominate. And she was extremely sort of - she could be extremely harsh with them early on, and with - in Tatiana's words, she both wanted to prove her mother wrong, and to make her happy. And so, there's something about that contradictory dichotomy in her brain that I think is at the root of all of it, you know.
Matthew Sherwood 14:09
And then even the grandmother who says, Well, the mother even goes a little too far, and then you've got the great - some video footage of Tatiana, like, four, however old she is, and she's just shouting at her to, I don't know, I can't remember the exact phrase, she's basically, like, Kill her. Kill him. Kill him!
Cassius Corrigan 14:27
You see, it's so funny you bring that up. That's one of my favourite clips. Yeah, her grandmother. There's video of her grandmother - of Tatiana wrestling as a, like, four year old against a boy, and you can hear her grandmother screaming Make him cry!
Matthew Sherwood 14:38
Make him cry! Yeah, that's what it is.
Cassius Corrigan 14:42
Listen, they are - these are tough people that life did not give any, you know, advantages to. These are people who had to fight for everything that they have and that they want in their life. So, it's like, it's just - for me, it's just been so inspiring being around them, because they really, there's just no such thing as an excuse, you know, like, it's just get to work and earn what you want, you know, and it's really, it's a beautiful thing.
Matthew Sherwood 15:14 (17:34)
And I think - now you described her as the biggest 'What If' in two different sports, but is she - I mean, that question isn't completely - we can't completely answer that question yet, right? Because she's made this comeback. We won't talk - spoiler alerts: we won't talk too much about the end of the film, but I know she's got a fight coming up. She's had to withdraw. But I mean, she's still going to be going for the title if her body will cooperate, won't she?
Cassius Corrigan 15:41
Absolutely. Absolutely. I'd say she's like the definitive, biggest 'What If' in girls' wrestling, without a doubt. And then now in MMA, those are the words of Ariel Helwani, who's the biggest journalist, most respected journalist, in the sport. And he used that phrase to describe her because four years ago, right before we started the documentary, Tatiana was just running through the division, she was just beating girls up, finishing them, like, not even competitive fights; like, she was just dominating these girls. And everyone was already starting to call her the Champ, the Champ because everyone just expected her to become the champion. And the last fight that she had before we started making this documentary and documenting her second big comeback was a number one contenders' fight, meaning whoever won would get the title shot, and she won that fight, but in the process reinjured her neck, which ended up keeping her out for another four years, which is what we documented in real time in the documentary; so, that's why she's considered - because it was like, such a done - everyone, every pundit, every fighter, like, everyone who was around the sport, it was just everyone was convinced by this time next year she should be the champion. And she hasn't gotten that chance yet to fight for the belt. But right now, where she is, is right at the top of that conversation for the next person to get a title shot. So, watch in the documentary.
Matthew Sherwood 17:06 (19:34)
Well, I have a feeling - I mean, you tell me - I mean, you know, so if this doesn't work out, she's gonna do something else. Any clue what she does after this? I mean, she's not gonna be able to fight MMA forever.
Cassius Corrigan 17:21
So, you know, it's a good question. Most people have back up plans.
Matthew Sherwood 17:28
Right.
Cassius Corrigan 17:28
But not Tatiana, you know, like, that's the thing that - I'm somebody who, lifelong athlete, lifelong competitor, I'm a very competitive person I, like - I hold myself to a very high standard, you know, but not until I was around Tatiana did I really, truly see what a world class work ethic and dedication and focus look like. She doesn't - if you try to even talk to her about things that don't relate to how she can get better at pursuing her goal of being the best fighter in the world, it's like a force field around her brain that, like, it just doesn't - those things that don't contribute to her success, like, just don't enter her mind. Like, she just does - in one ear and out the other. It's a fascinating thing to see, just how truly all in she is and what that world champion level focus looks like. And I give you that context to say that she's not thinking about it, because that's not gonna help her win a world championship.
Matthew Sherwood 18:29
Or is there many - the rest of us are constantly thinking of all the things that will go wrong. It's interesting. I think this is a good time to give our audience a break. So, just to say that we'll be right back with Cassius Corrigan, the filmmaker behind The Unbreakable Tatiana Suarez, released on HBO and streaming on Max, you can see it pretty much anywhere from what we hear, even in Israel in Hebrew. So, do check it out.
Factual America Midroll 18:57
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or X to keep up-to-date with new releases for upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the programme, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
Matthew Sherwood 19:15
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Cassius Corrigan, writer and director of The Unbreakable Tatiana Suarez, released on HBO, and streaming on Max. We touched briefly already about how you had the sort of idea for this project, but how did you gain access? How did you - did you just approach them and how easy was that?
Cassius Corrigan 19:42 (22:02)
So, it's a funny story. I come more from the scripted background in film and television. Actually, I had never made a documentary before but I had made my first movie and it was like a micro-budget, no budget movie that I made in Miami called Huracan, a psychological thriller set in the world of Mixed Martial Arts in Miami. And we had a kind of a charmed trajectory, and we got, you know, we did the film festival circuit, we ended up getting licenced by HBO, which was kind of a shocking dream come true type moment. And in the wake of that, you know, I was thinking long and hard about what I wanted to do next. And what I knew for sure was, I wanted to do a project that I would not act in. Because I was the lead actor of that movie. So, I wanted to be able to focus behind the camera telling someone else's story. And I knew I also wanted to do an inspirational story. I really wanted to do something that was uplifting. And I would like to - I also had the idea in the back of my head that it would also be nice if it was about a Latina main character, because part of my family is Colombian and Latinas in particular, are, like the most underrepresented group, and I just felt, you know, - I, like, as a storyteller, I want to tell the stories that haven't been told, I think there's a unique value in that. And as someone who's building my career, you know, as a filmmaker, and in Hollywood, I also saw that as, like a necessary opportunity where I could be doing something that other people aren't doing, you know. So, all that was in my head one day when I was watching a UFC event. It happened to be the one where Tatiana was fighting for that number one contender spot, and she won the fight and I'm an MMA fanatic, I'm a martial artist, I love the UFC so much. And so, that was kind of my first exposure to her. And afterwards, it was revealed that she had a serious neck injury going into the fight, and fought anyways. And so, I googled her and I saw her - her Wikipedia was very short at the time...
Matthew Sherwood 21:48
Right.
Cassius Corrigan 21:48
... but it said something to the effect of Tatiana was the former wrestling prodigy and the first Latina to wrestle for Team USA. At 20 years old, right before the Olympics, she broke her neck, was nearly paralysed, and they discovered that she had cancer. Period. Four years later, she started fighting in MMA and now was an undefeated UFC fighter. That was the entire detail of her Wikipedia. And I was like, Wait, what?! This girl is one of the best fighters in the world, and in a prior sport, she was one of the best in the world until a broken neck and cancer knocked her out?! Like, how do I not know about this story? You know, like, I'm somebody who grew up - you know, I love the Rocky franchise, like...
Matthew Sherwood 22:29
Right.
Cassius Corrigan 22:29
... even if you compare this to the Rocky story, I was like, this is a crazier story than Rocky. And it's true. And it's from a perspective as a Latina athlete that most people have never seen a Latina athlete ever as a - not even just a character, but a main character in a film/show/documentary. So, it just kind of checked all those boxes in terms of the type of story I was really hoping to find. And so, when I first saw, I reached out to her on Instagram, as one does, you know, and I just sent her a direct message. And I had a girlfriend at the time, and I DMd Tatiana, and I said something to the effect of, Hey, I saw you fight recently, and I'm a filmmaker, I read a little bit about your story. You have, like, such a crazy story. You know, if you're open to it, I'd love to take you out to lunch and learn a little bit more about you. And she responds and she's like, Yo, like, I see that you have a girlfriend, like, why are you being like a scumbag, like, trying to, like, take me out to lunch, like, when you're obviously in a relationship. And I was like, No, no; I should have been more specific. I think there's, like, a movie here, that we can make, or something. That's just who Tatiana is. She just keeps it real, and she's very direct and transparent. Super refreshing! But we ended up going to lunch. And it just was one of those conversations that just went for hours. And I just became very interested in her story. And I started - we did a couple of sit down interviews with her and her mom and her brother, and originally I was just doing background research for a movie, but the more I delved deeper into her story and saw that oh wow, her relationship with her mom, it's, like, a really powerful, complex one. Oh, her relationship with her brother who was also, like, a pioneer in wrestling, one of the best wrestlers of his generation in California. It's also interesting because he was like a surrogate father figure for Tatiana and then, like, oh the high school that they went to was a pioneer in girls' wrestling and, wait, girls' wrestling is one of the fastest growing sports in the country. And I realised with Tatiana she was about to embark on another sort of Herculean comeback effort from another sort of career threatening injury. So, those things all led me to, Okay, well, why don't I do this as a documentary, you know, and for the first year-and-a-half, it was just Tatiana, myself and a camera, and I would just kind of document what her rehab looked like, what she was able to do in that time, doing these sit down interviews with a lot of people in her community. And once I had enough material I edited what some in the industry would call proof of concept. It was basically like a short documentary about 10 minutes long. And I was able to pitch that to HBO through a partnership that I had made with Michael Strahan's company, SMAC, Michael Strahan's, like, a Hall of Fame American football player who's now also a big media personality and producer, and HBO to - very much to their credit, decided to make not only their first MMA documentary ever, but their first documentary ever about a Latina athlete. So, they really believed in me, they believed in Tatiana, and the support they gave us is like, I still kind of can't believe it.
Matthew Sherwood 25:52
It's amazing. And they believed in the story, because as you as any filmmaker would know, you have no idea where this is going, right. You just start filming her comeback. It could have ended, it could have - I mean, you had a great picture there, anyway, probably but...
Cassius Corrigan 26:06
Right.
Matthew Sherwood 26:07
... but to capture these last four years, and where it's ended up is quite incredible.
Cassius Corrigan 26:14 (28:34)
It's been the most incredible experience of my life. And I'll just never forget it, man. It left the mark on my soul for sure. Just being around Tatiana, and just seeing the courage that she has. What people don't realise is the nature of her neck injury is such that, you know, she's risking paralysis by continuing her career...
Matthew Sherwood 26:38
Yeah, I was just gonna say - yeah, go ahead.
Cassius Corrigan 26:40
... her depth of conviction in her goal of proving that she's the best in the world being finally getting that recognition as the world champion. And in showing to the people, the many people who look up to her, this is the kind of strength and resilience that we're capable of, like, she truly lives that every single day, and I just - the closer I got to her, into the story, it just dawned on me, like, what are these other athletes that we revere, you know the Michael Jordans, the Kobe Bryants, like, these iconic figures; the Peles, you know, from different sports, like, we idolise these figures for being great competitors, but what did they have, what were they risking.
Matthew Sherwood 27:23
Yeah.
Cassius Corrigan 27:23
... but look at what Tatiana is risking every day. And, like, she has that mentality. So, to me, it was just like, this is one of the greatest stories I've ever encountered in sport. So, I just was willing to do whatever it took to bring it to life.
Matthew Sherwood 27:38 (30:25)
And it's, as you say, Well, for me, at least, it's a sport that I wasn't that familiar with. And I think your film has many insights. But even beyond Tatiana, and the competitive spirit and Latino culture and all these things that have been happening. You have incredible access to UFC, and I thought that was very interesting and compelling. And what do most outsiders or people who aren't fans of the sport - what do you think we most misunderstand about MMA and UFC and what has been happening the last sort of, you'll probably tell me it's been going on for longer, the last 20 years or so. I mean, as it's taken off.
Cassius Corrigan 28:21
It's such a good question. It's one of my favourite things to think about with respect to the sport because there are a lot of misconceptions about it. The sport itself is only 30 years old. So, the entire sport of MMA - Mixed Martial Arts - is only 30 years old. The UFC is the promotion that created the sport, the UFC is like in the UK, the Premier League, right. The UFC is just a promotion and then the sport itself is Mixed Martial Arts. The bigger - I'd say the most common misconception is that these fighters are like thugs or like criminals or like these crazy, lunatic, maniac, like, aggressive people. But when you meet UFC fighters what shocks so many people is their humility and their even-headedness. It's really like, until you see it and feel it in person, you have this crazy expectation of what a fighter is going to be like, but what - the reason they are that way is they've been humbled so many thousands of times in their decade plus of martial arts experience, you know, like, you can't get great at that sport without - there's so many different aspects to it. There's kicking, there's punching, there's wrestling, there's jujitsu, you know, there's karate, there's every single martial art in the world is combined in MMA, and no one is going to be the best at every single individual piece of that.
Matthew Sherwood 29:46
Right.
Cassius Corrigan 29:47
So, they go through a process of being humbled as they become proficient and then excellent at these various martial arts. So, there's just the character of the fighters is something that I think people misunderstand. And then I also think, like, the violence for a lot of people is the headline...
Matthew Sherwood 30:06
Right.
Cassius Corrigan 30:07
... and it kind of makes it harder for them to see the artistry and the technique and the tactics that are incredibly detailed and nuanced and layered that these fighters are bringing to the table, you know?
Matthew Sherwood 30:21 (33:50)
Yeah, I guess that, you know, even for those who maybe have followed boxing, you know, boxing is in a ring, this is in a cage, right, you know, it's even got the - some of the terminology around it, but yeah, that's what struck me was this discipline - well, obviously, the discipline and the training, but like the technique, like, the way you know, you have some scenes where she and others are just walking through, like, how you do a certain move, and it's very, very - choreographed is not - a word I don't want to use, because that sounds like we're talking about professional wrestling or something: it's not what we're talking about, we're talking about how they're thinking about exactly what every little move that, you know, and how you counteract every single little move. I mean, I know there's other sports that have this element, too, but it was just very insightful and very interesting. And also, I mean, it appears to me it's just - it seems like the ultimate gruelling sport. I mean, you have to have an ama - besides a physical makeup for this, the ment - and I guess this gets back then - does take us back to Tatiana, the mental aspect of this is incredible.
Cassius Corrigan 31:32 (35:07)
Absolutely. You ask any fighter and they'll all tell you that the psychology, the mental side of it, is by far the most important piece because not only is it so unimaginably complex, like, just to give you a context, one martial art, let's say jujitsu has hundreds, if not thousands, of moves and sequences and steps, from an offensive standpoint, and from a defensive standpoint, you know. It's a lifetime to master just that one martial art. And then you take that, you put that martial art aside, then you have boxing, then you have wrestling, then you have karate, then you have muay thai, then you have Taekwondo, then you have combo, then you have Wing Chun, you know, like, there's so - it's an infinite, there's a genuinely infinite variety of sequences that combine different martial arts that are available to martial artists. So, it's interesting in that way where it becomes a tool of self-expression, you know, like, these fighters find the martial arts and the sequences and the combinations that are best, that are most optimised for them and their fighting style. So, like, the psychology around it is fascinating. And then this, the other piece of it is the actual, like, outside of the Xs and Os, right, outside of the tactics...
Matthew Sherwood 32:22
Right.
Cassius Corrigan 32:34
... is the psychological compromise that these fighters make, going into a fight, like, they, one of the really fascinating and incredibly profound parts of it is that, you know, a lot of them consciously think about the fact that they're doing something, they're competing in a fight in which they might become paralysed, or they might not only suffer grievous bodily harm, but where they could conceivably die, or on the other, or alternatively, take someone's life.
Matthew Sherwood 33:29
Right.
Cassius Corrigan 33:30
So, the stakes and the spiritual component are so much deeper in this sport than any other sport. You know, boxing would be the only one that's comparable, especially in the fact that they only get to compete a very, very few times per year. Two to three is the average number of fights that a professional fighter in MMA would have in a calendar year. So, that's not many opportunities to prove who you are, to advance your position in the sport. So, the stakes that come around each individual fight are just so heightened that once you get into the sport, into the world, it's hard to watch other sports because the stakes are so much lower that you're like, How do I even care about it, you know?
Matthew Sherwood 34:16 (36:55)
Yeah, yeah, no, I - well, I, you know, I can imagine. I mean - and then to take it back to this film, and you've already mentioned this, but just to draw a - dwell on this just a little bit more but this project, I guess, it obviously started out being about Tatiana and her making this comeback, but it becomes about so much more. And, you know, it becomes about women's wrestling - and it becomes us to give another shout out to Northview High School in Covina, California, this girls' wrestling programme, and, you know, Latinas in sport and this sort of sport - I mean, those young women or, can call them girls, because some are quite young in the programme, they are in the high school, it's just - that isn't - that was an interest - they're so - how best to put it, they seem so mature and with it, these young women that you interview. I mean, I can't imagine any my kids being that with it in many ways.
Cassius Corrigan 35:24
Right, right. So, yeah, so what Matthew's referred to is, there's a thread of the documentary where we're following girls that are themselves following in Tatiana's footsteps, so they're current high schoolers at Northview, who - many of whom kind of look up to Tatiana as the example, the role model, sort of the icon, so to say, from that community, and particularly for that sport. And so, through these girls, Tatiana's story is so crazy that it's almost unrelatable because it's so many insane back-to-back things, plus the girls give us this really relatable insight into the sport. And I think one of the beautiful things that we discovered and - or uncovered, I would say, in the process of making the documentary is in a very fundamental way, just the utility of sports as a way to build character for life. And a way to open up opportunities that these girls wouldn't have otherwise, the community that they come from in Covina is very much Mexican-American and very much blue collar, middle class, lower middle class families, families that are working class, you know, and a lot of whom, maybe the girls, you know, or the kids wouldn't go to college or get opportunities to go to college. But wrestling is opening up opportunities for these kids that they wouldn't have had otherwise to get higher education. And one of the really counterintuitive things that I wasn't expecting is the role of self-confidence and self-belief that girls are developing through wrestling. So, one of the things that I think maybe some of the more ignorant fans of the sport have is they're like wondering, should girls even be doing this, it's so masculine, like, isn't it going to masculinise these women. And what I discovered and what one of our subjects Leilani said so beautifully is she was like, Before I started wrestling, I was so self-conscious, I didn't want people to look at me, so I wouldn't do my hair, I wouldn't wear makeup, I just didn't want anyone to look at me because I was so self-conscious. But once she started wrestling, she gained the self-confidence, and the level of kind of identity and self-belief that then she started wearing makeup, then she felt comfortable doing her hair, because now she was comfortable with people looking at her because she felt confident in her own skin. And I think those more unexpected aspects of what sports can do for people and how a programme you know, can impact the community are some of the more surprising and really, to me, valuable layers that I'm still proud that we were able to highlight in the doc.
Matthew Sherwood 38:11 (40:31)
Well, indeed, this film's got a lot of layers to it, and all worth unpeeling, and watching, and observing. So, thank you so much. I think we're coming to the end of our time together actually, Cassius. But before we go, what is next for you? Would you do another doc? This is your first one. Are you thinking about another one?
Cassius Corrigan 38:30
Absolutely. I don't know how you top that because genuinely, this is one of the most incredible underdog stories I've ever encountered. Dana White, the head of the UFC, called this not only one of the greatest comeback stories in the history of MMA, but one of the greatest comeback stories in the history of sports. And it really is that superlative. I guarantee you, if you watch this documentary, you will be inspired and you will be - it will move you, and it will leave a mark. So, to me it's gonna be hard to top that. I don't know how I'm gonna find a story that can, like, reach that level. But we are working on a movie adaptation of Tatiana's story so that's something...
Matthew Sherwood 39:13 I would have thought so.
Cassius Corrigan 39:14 ** ... I'm very excited about Yeah. And there are, yeah, a lot of other projects in the works. I am actually working with the guys, Rob Weiss and Stephen Levinson, the creators and producers of Entourage, and Ballers, and How to Make It In America on an MMA show that's sort of in that same vein of a group of friends who seek to rise to the top of their respective field or industry. In Entourage, it was Hollywood. In Ballers, it's professionals - NFL the professional football. In How To Make It In America, its fashion. And now we're doing it in the world of Mixed Martial Arts. So...
Matthew Sherwood 39:18
Okay.
Cassius Corrigan 39:22
... that is - that's on deck.
Matthew Sherwood 39:52
Okay, well, we'll be on the lookout for that. And yes, if you do another doc, we'd love to have you on again. It's been great talking with you, and just to remind our viewers and listeners, we've been talking with acclaimed filmmaker Cassius Corrigan, the writer and director of The Unbreakable Tatiana Suarez, released on HBO and streaming on Max. Do check it out. Thanks again, Cassius, it's been great to have you on.
Cassius Corrigan 40:17
Thank you so much for the time and for the opportunity to shed some more light on this story and this project.
Matthew Sherwood 40:22
Yeah, it's a great story. It's an amazing story. Everyone should see this. So, thank you again.
Matthew Sherwood 40:33
Thanks again for joining us on Factual America. A big shout-out to everyone at Innersound Audio in York, England for their great studio and fine editing and production skills. A big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show, and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to you our listeners. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. And please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.
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