Scouting for Girls: Fashion's Darkest Secret
Three-part docuseries Scouting for Girls: Fashion's Darkest Secret reveals how a group of men behind the world's most successful modelling agencies were involved in a darker side of the industry. It exposes how modelling agents like John Casablancas, Jean-Luc Brunel, Claude Haddad and Gérald Marie, who denies the allegations, created a culture that enabled many of them to indulge in a spectrum of abusive behaviours, ranging from grooming and coercion to the rape of models as young as 15.
The film hears from a generation of forgotten women who were promised stardom and glamour, but instead found themselves used, abused and in some cases, trafficked between networks of powerful men. Building on an ongoing investigation by Lucy Osborne for The Guardian, the series delivers the fashion industry its own 'me too' reckoning, and follows the survivors, including Carré Ottis, as they come together to take action against those responsible.
Clare Richards, series director, Lucy Osborne, senior producer, and Carré Ottis, model, author, wellness consultant, activist and contributor to the film, join us to discuss Scouting for Girls that airs on Sky Documentaries on June 24th.
“Models are seen as beautiful people that get paid a ton of money, and that creates a discrimination against us that we shouldn’t have the same rights and protections as workers in other industries.” - Carré Ottis
Time Stamps:
00:00 - Introduction and a clip from Scouting for Girls: Fashion's Darkest Secret.
03:02 - What the docuseries is about.
07:15 - What Carré Ottis’s experienced as a minor and when she started speaking out about it.
13:50 - The scale of abuse that has been happening in the fashion industry.
16:40 - The challenges of telling the story and survivors reliving their experiences.
19:28 - How prevalent the abuse in the fashion industry is today.
21:15 - Clip: Carré Ottis testifying to the French police.
25:40 - How Lucy Osborne turned the investigative journalism piece into a docuseries.
31:00 - Why now is the right time to show this story.
39:22 - How the statute of limitation on sexual assault in different states affects the victims.
42:05 - What Lucy, Clare and Carré would like to see change in the fashion industry.
45:10 - What they want the legacy of this documentary to be.
48:00 - How the victims can reach out to the Model Alliance and share their story.
54:00 - Further information on the allegations made in Scouting for Girls: Fashion's Darkest Secret.
Resources:
Scouting for Girls: Fashion's Darkest Secret (2022)
Lucy Osborne’s investigative articles in The Guardian
Model Alliance
American Girls in Paris, Diane Sawyer 60 Minutes report
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect Lucy Osborne:
Connect with Clare Richards:
Connect with Carré Ottis:
Right to Replies
A lawyer for Gérald Marie has stated that he “firmly objects” to the “false allegations made against him”. She added: “He remains calm and refuses to participate in the fallacious and dishonest media controversy that has been fomented more than thirty years later. He is withholding his statements for the justice system, in which he has complete faith.” Gérald Marie remains under police investigation in France and is presumed innocent.
John Casablancas retired to Brazil in the early 2000s with the young wife he met at Look of the Year. He died in 2013.
In 2004, Elite was forced into bankruptcy and the brand was sold. The current owners have no connection with the prior management and have strongly condemned the historic allegations of abuse. They are committed to a culture of respect, empowerment and protecting the safety of their models.
Claude Haddad died in 2009. He previously denied allegations of sexual misconduct against him.
Jean-Luc Brunel declined to comment on the allegations made against him in this film. He has previously strongly denied all of the allegations against him. Brunel’s former modelling agency, Karin’s is now under new management. Prior to his death in February 2022, Jean-Luc Brunel declined requests to participate in the series or respond to its allegations.
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 102: Scouting for Girls: Fashion's Darkest Secret
Clare Richards 00:00
My name is Clare Richards. I'm the series director of Scouting for Girls: Fashion's Darkest Secrets.
Lucy Osborne 00:08
I'm Lucy Osborne. I'm the producer of Scouting for Girls, and an investigative journalist with The Guardian.
Carré Otis 00:15
I'm Carré Otis, and I am a mother, author, model, and activist, and so grateful to be partaking in this docu-series.
Speaker 1 00:33
When I was told that I was gonna go stay with the boss of the agency, I actually thought that that was a good sign. After that initial rape by Gerald Marie, I would endure continuing assaults. The dissociation that took place, there was a separation from myself just to survive. And when I continued to work after that, I mean, you know the face; I knew the face that was expected of me.
Matthew 01:14
This is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo Pictures, an Austin and London based production company making documentaries about America for international audiences. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a documentary, and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. This week, it is my pleasure to welcome Clare Richards, Lucy Osborne and Carré Otis. Their docu-series, Scouting for Girls: Fashion's Darkest Secrets reveals how a group of men behind the world's most successful modeling agencies were involved in a darker side of the industry. It exposes how modeling agents like John Casablancas, Jean-Luc Brunel, Claude Haddad, and Gerald Marie, who denies the allegations, created a culture that enabled many of them to indulge in a spectrum of abusive behaviors, ranging from grooming and coercion to the rape of models as young as 15. The film hears from a generation of forgotten women who were promised stardom and glamour, but instead found themselves used, abused and in some cases, trafficked between networks of powerful men. Building on an ongoing investigation by Lucy for The Guardian, the series delivers the fashion industry its own 'me too' reckoning, and follows the survivors, including Carré, as they come together to take action against those responsible. I'm here with Clare Richards, series director; Lucy Osborne, senior producer, and Carré Otis, model, author, wellness consultant, and activist, and contributor to the film. The film is Scouting for Girls: Fashion's Darkest Secrets. It's coming to Sky Documentaries on June 24. Clare, may we start with you. What is Scouting for Girls all about?
Clare Richards 03:04
Scouting for Girls is a three part documentary series that looks at the darker side of the fashion industry. It spans three decades. It starts in the 80s, and brings us right up to present day to look at the way in which agents of very well known agencies were promising teenagers, girls, the sort of the expectation of lucrative careers in fashion, which did sometimes happen, but there was also this really dark underbelly that led to grooming, coercion, and rape that went on and on and on. Pretty much in plain sight.
Matthew 03:52
Okay. And if I understand correctly, much of it's largely based on investigations for The Guardian that you've done Lucy, is that correct?
Lucy Osborne 04:05
Yeah; so, it sort of started - back in 2020, I wrote a series of articles for The Guardian, on sexual abuse in the fashion industry, and so, it sort of evolved from there. Wonderhood Studios, who produced this, were also sort of looking into a similar area, so, Sky sort of paired The Guardian with Wonderhood, and we, yeah, we made the series together.
Matthew 04:33
Okay. And in those investigations, I mean - and I highly recommend - we'll have links in the show notes to The Guardian, the UK based newspaper - but, I mean, broadly, was it like peeling an onion: the more you looked, the more you found, and sort of - I mean, I think Clare's kind of alluded to it, more than alluded to it, certainly, but what were you finding, as you were investigating?
Lucy Osborne 05:00
Well, I mean, it sort of started for me about four years ago. I was at the BBC making - I made a film on Weinstein and then Trump and speaking to obviously a lot of survivors of their alleged sexual misconduct. And the more people I spoke to, the more I realized that, you know, that not only was there a problem with models that were being sent to the likes of people like Trump and Weinstein, there was also - agents' names kept coming up, so people like Gerald Marie, and Jean-Luc Brunel, who were allegedly, you know, sending models to men outside the fashion industry, but who were also sexually assaulting, and raping models themselves as well. So, it sort of just kept growing, really, from there. And then in 2020, I started working with The Guardian, and wrote the series of articles. And once I started doing that, it really just blew up in terms of, you know, I was just being contacted by model after model who had experienced this, and it just became clear that this was a, you know, a huge issue within the fashion industry over many, many decades. So, yeah, I think I first connected with Carré, I think I was looking - it was right at the beginning when I was first looking into Trump, and I think someone sort of said, you know, speak to Carré Otis, she's obviously, you know, one of the first people that really sort of started speaking out about this, not long before the 'me too' movement happened. And I think initially, I just sort of asked her about Trump, and then obviously started speaking to her about her own experiences more broadly than that. And, yeah; so, it just sort of evolved from there.
Matthew 06:54
Well, that's - exactly; and Carré, I mean, as Lucy has said, you've been going public with your story for a while. It definitely predates before anyone had heard of 'hashtag' let alone 'me too'. So, you had this 2011 memoir, and that's when I think - is that the first time you shared your story? And maybe, if you don't mind, I hate to make you relive these memories, but maybe you can tell us what happened to you, and what you've been sharing with audiences?
Carré Otis 07:33
Yeah, I decided to write my memoir in 2011, Beauty Disrupted, and it really was in and around the fact that I was a mother to two little girls. And it felt it is my duty, my responsibility, to work so that my daughters and others - other young people - don't have to normalize sexual harassment and sexual abuse anywhere, and certainly not in the workplace. And through that process, I really realized how much I had normalized, just to sort of survive what I had been through in the industry. I was a minor, I was 17, when I was trafficked from San Francisco to New York, and from New York to Paris, France. I was told that I was going to get to go stay at the boss's apartment, and in my vulnerability and naivety, and having just dropped into this whole new world where I was in over my head, I thought that it was actually a good thing. I thought I was actually sort of a chosen one, and that it was hopeful that I was gonna go stay in the apartment of Gerald Marie. I got there, and it turned out he became my perpetrator for quite some time. And it was also made very clear to me during that time, that if I protested and there was nowhere really to protest, or if I protested, that the person that held the power and the cards in my life at that time, so, you know, from finances, my passport was withheld, roof over my head, food, metro, all of it, that I simply wouldn't work. So, that was made very clear to me. And it was really the beginning of tremendous dissociation and traumatization and compartmentalization that, you know, I sort of created just as a survival for my experiences at that time.
Matthew 09:38
And, I mean, this is, you know, this is - what's happened must have had an incredible effect on your life, hasn't it? I mean, you've gotten through it, but, maybe you can tell us more about how - I mean, like you said, maybe you didn't even realize at the time what - I think that what happens in the doc, a lot of the people that are interviewed don't even realize until later what they've actually been through, you know, the women that are interviewed, the subjects, and maybe you can maybe give us a little more insight into that.
Carré Otis 10:19
Yeah. You know, like so many trauma survivors, that's what we do is dissociate just to be able to survive and function. And I had a interviewer recently say, You were so strong, you were so courageous. And I'm like, No, I was none of those things, actually. I couldn't even speak of what was happening in my life, there was so much shame and fear around what was transpiring. And it has certainly taken me many, many years to heal from those traumas, working with - you know, I'm privileged and I have resources. And unlike so many, you know, there's so many women and men who don't have the resources that I've had access to. So, I'm incredibly grateful that I've been able to embark on a healing journey, and that healing journey continues. And it definitely has been part of working on this docu-series, like, we've been held so incredibly, by Sky and Wonderhood and The Guardian, you know, with this team of women, that have helped create the safety net for us to walk through and share our stories and have it be so respected and taken care of. And the story is told in such an honoring, tender way, and I think many of us survivors have gone through periods with the press where, you know, our stories have tried to be sensationalized and pulled apart. And it's been a painful process. So, this has actually been an incredible reckoning to be able to tell our stories in this way on this platform and be held so well.
Matthew 11:58
Okay. I mean, to follow up on that, I think that's - I guess there's two things I think of - Lucy, I guess, what you found is that Carré's story, unfortunately, is not that unusual, is it?
Lucy Osborne 12:12
That's sadly, no. No, I mean, just to follow up on what Carré was saying, I think what makes this docu-series different to other documentaries that cover 'me too' allegations, you get to see the survivors obviously reliving and talking about their experiences in the past, but you also sort of are able to - we follow their journeys the whole way through to today, so, you really do get a sense of the impact that that has, over time, and how the personal journeys - you see Carré's personal journey and the other women, you know, coming to terms with what happened to them, and to the present day where they're seeking justice for what happened. So, I think that really sets it apart from other documentaries on this sort of subject. And it's really - it's empowering. And it's amazing to sort of see that journey and get a sense of really, you know, how courageous it is for women to talk about these things. And how difficult it is, I think that sometimes you don't get to see that kind of progression. You know, you just sort of read about their story in the press or hear about it. But it's difficult to convey, maybe, how hard that is. But yeah, I mean, the series, it tells a story of four women, so it's Carré, and three others, in a lot of detail. But obviously, their experiences are representative of a much, much bigger problem that was happening to so many models at the same time. And I think, you know, the reason I started looking into this was because I just, I was so taken aback by the scale of it. It was literally every model I spoke to, pretty much every model I spoke to had their own experience. But if they didn't, they were connecting me with, you know, handfuls of other models who had. And so, it just felt like this - sort of like, why hasn't this been a huge story before? And obviously, there were several attempts in the past, you know, to shine a light on this and, you know, in some cases, you know, very detailed, very good investigations, but for whatever reason, things moved on and people forgot about it. So, yeah, I mean, my investigation, my work in The Guardian has covered some of it but there's many, many more women who have had similar experiences and actually Marianne Shine who is one of the four women in the series, she came forward to me after one of the Guardian articles. So, she actually got in touch. And a lot of women have told me they feel, they felt for many years, decades sometimes, that they were the only ones to experience this because - I think the models - Carré can probably talk about this better than I can - but there was this sort of - models didn't talk to each other about these things. There was a lot of shame, as Carré said, you know, so, it's only in recent years, for some people reading these accounts from other women that they've realized that this is a much bigger thing that they were a part of, and that they weren't alone. So, we get a sense of that journey from Marianne in the film as well.
Matthew 15:12
Yeah, I think...
Carré Otis 12:49
... I have to say, too, yes, Lucy, completely. And when I wrote my book, you know, here I was coming out with all this information, and nobody wanted to touch it. I mean, I think so much of this is timing. Nobody wanted to have the conversations. And I too, felt like, I didn't think I was a standalone situation, but I had no idea, you know, fast forward to now, how many women and how prevalent, how pervasive this was within the industry.
Matthew 16:01
And I actually want to pick up more on that in a minute. But to pick up also what you said - something you said earlier, Carré, and also Lucy, about these forces all coming together with The Guardian, and the survivors, and you Clare in making the series. I mean, how do you - I mean, you've mentioned how you got involved, but how, you know, how do you - I mean, it must be quite challenging, isn't it to do this? Obviously, you're gonna be sympathetic, but in a way that - I mean, you're making the survivors live this again, and it must - how has that been? I mean, that must be a very challenging, it's done extremely well, as someone who's seen the series - I've had the fortune to see the series already. But how did you manage that? Because that's got to be, you know, very difficult.
Clare Richards 17:15
Yeah, well, it definitely was a real worry, you know, at the very beginning, when I was reading all the accounts, and understanding the level of abuse, and really digesting it in a way that because, you know, as you said, it is deeply disturbing. And the good thing about 'me, too' is obviously that we are talking about these things more and more and more, and that has created a space for these stories to be told. But there were challenges in a storytelling kind of way, was that we needed the models to be able to feel like they could tell their stories in a safe way. But that wasn't going to be re-traumatizing, and that it wasn't going to feel too familiar to an audience who is now accustomed to hearing some of this. So, that was really challenging. But, you know, the way that we, you know, wanted to try and overcome that was to make sure that we understood, you know, Carré's - we understood who Carré was as a 17 year old, we understood a 15-16 year old, you know, what was it like to feel the things about the modeling industry that anybody who has a dream can relate to? And that if you understood that, then you would be with the stories, with the women, as they were telling you it, and that therefore we were creating a bond with the viewer that would make them want to get to the end, if that makes sense?
Matthew 19:00
Well, yes, it does make sense. And I think you've achieved - yeah, more than have achieved that. So, I do appreciate that. I mean, Carré, you were saying, you know, you hadn't realized how, you know, there is this feeling that you may be the only one, or one of the few, and then you find it's much more prevalent. I mean, are these issues - how prevalent are these issues still today? Because, you know, a lot of this is discussed in the 80s and 90s, but as Clare's brought it - mentioned, you bring it forward to present day, and we'll talk more about what's happening present day, but in terms of the industry, how prevalent, as far as you know, how prevalent is this still today?
Carré Otis 19:46
Yeah, so, I'm still active in the industry. I am on the board of the Model Alliance, an incredible organization, and we have a support line and the calls that come into that support line indicate that these issues are still ongoing today. If you consider this is an industry that is still largely unregulated, working with the most vulnerable workforce, which is minors or young adults, that we don't have a regulatory body and a system in place to protect its workforce, is outrageous. It's unacceptable. So, it is my understanding from financial transparency to the normalization of sexual harassment to objectification, all very alive and well in this industry.
Matthew 20:30
I think that's a good point to maybe take a break for our listeners. We'll be right back with Clare Richards, Lucy Osborne and Carré Otis. The film is - docu-series, actually - is Scouting for Girls: Fashion's Darkest Secrets. Coming to Sky Documentaries on June 24.
Factual America midroll 20:54
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Speaker 1 21:14
That's why being here in France and testifying to the French police with these women is so meaningful. Naming him sends a signal to other women who may be suffering, that you're not alone, and we are here for you. We're doing this in support of other survivors, and also an invitation for anyone who is within the statute of limitations. Please join us we're here for you.
Matthew 21:53
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with award winning director Clare Richards; award winning investigative journalist Lucy Osborne, and fashion model, author, wellness consultant, and activist, Carré Otis. The film is Scouting for Girls: Fashion's Darkest Secrets. It's a three parter, and it's coming to Sky Documentaries on June 24. I mean, one thing we were talking about before the break, is that, you know, really what - I mean, there's obviously this abuse and harassment that you've documented and these survivors have had to live through, but one thing that struck me the most, maybe it's as a father of a daughter, and I don't know, but it's the footage of the time that I think it was the one of the Look of the Year, what was considered, I think, one of the early days of reality TV, but I just, you know, and I lived through that period, I found it absolutely shocking, that footage, because we are talking about - we're not just - there's no excuse regardless of what age we're talking about, but we are talking about 14-15 year old girls aren't we.
Clare Richards 23:10
I mean, yeah, it is shocking. When I remember first looking at that footage, and, you know, that wasn't - that, it didn't feel like it was that long ago. But actually, when you look back at it, it makes you feel like it was a long, long time ago because there has been, you know, even though a lot of this behavior, still exists, there has been quite a lot of cultural change around the way we behave towards women, for example. But yeah; so, it was shocking to look through it. And it was a great find, Lucy, wasn't it, when - to have found Roberto, who was the behind-the-scenes cameraman at the Look of the Year competitions, who was able to give us access to that footage, because it is shocking looking back.
Matthew 23:58
Yes, I mean, maybe you can tell us a little bit more about that, because that's quite, I mean, I hate to put it this way, but that's quite a find to be able to - because that's not something that probably a lot of those people thought would see the light of day again.
Clare Richards 24:11
Well, I mean, Lucy, you step in here, but I understand Roberto - Lucy found Roberto, you know, as part of the investigation and then discovered that there was this footage, but he hadn't wanted to release up until now because he didn't feel the time was right. That's right, Lucy.
Lucy Osborne 24:31
Yeah, I think so, yeah. I mean, he's a very successful fashion photographer, and he has, you know, he's photographed, you know, the world's top supermodels, and he has boxes and boxes of photographs and footage. I think initially, I think he had some stills from Look of the Year a few years ago when I first spoke to him, and then he said, I think I have some footage as well somewhere, and then eventually, he sort of found a few bits of it in his boxes. And then, I think it was in 2020 or 2019, when I was in New York for The Guardian, and I went to his flat, his apartment, and we just went through them all. And he found this whole box of the footage. So, it was amazing to find that and to go through it. But there's more, I think, as well. So, we're still hoping that Roberto is going to get his hands on the last few tapes.
Matthew 25:29
I mean, was it events like that that made you think this could be a docu-series? Or did that kind of once you've - when did this happen, this pairing up and deciding this actually is - let's turn this more from just investigative journalism pieces and turn it into a series?
Lucy Osborne 25:48
Well, I mean, it was, I think, for me, personally, I think as soon as I started hearing all these experiences from so many models, I mean, you know, literally dozens and dozens, I sort of really felt that there was, it's more than you can do even with a long work that I was lucky to have at The Guardian, you know, you just can't even touch the surface, really. So, I really felt that it was something that needed to be told on screen as well. But it sort of evolved from there. I mean, The Guardian were keen to do something. And yet, eventually we were sort of trying to look into how we could make it; whether this could be a sort of single or a series, and then spoke to Sky, who were already in touch with Wonderhood who kind of had the same sort of idea that the story really still needed to be told and hadn't been told properly before. So, yeah, it was - it kind of evolved. Yeah. All evolved from that. But I mean, it was - you know, I think, and Carré can probably talk this a bit better than I can, but I think that there's a feeling, maybe, among - certainly to desensitize to 'me too' issues. And also, I think, and particularly with the modeling industry, I think people sort of feel like they already know about it, or are maybe less sympathetic, unfortunately, towards models. And I think that so it wasn't necessarily an idea that instantly got picked up, you know, it was - so, you know, it's obviously great that Sky realized that this is an important issue, and wanted to do something. But it wasn't something that just suddenly happened straight after the articles.
Matthew 27:44
Do you think - is that fair, Carré? What Lucy's just said?
Carré Otis 27:47
Yeah, absolutely. And part of the conversation is there's sort of a stigma or perspective of the modeling industry that it's incredibly glamorous, and that we're incredibly privileged. And that, you know, models are beautiful people that have, you know - they get paid a ton of money and for some reason that creates a discrimination against us that we shouldn't have the same rights and protections as other workers in other industries. And I agree, the desensitization within this industry and within our cultures, but also the normalization of these behaviors within the industry, you know, are very real and even applauded, as you can see in some of that footage, you know, you see these powerful men together, that are acting unbelievably despicable, and they're just cheering each other on. And that was also that generation. And I think part of the conversation that's happening now is, you know, there are women that are coming together in this wave, and it is about timing and in this explosion of, like, okay, you may have grown up that way, but I am no longer going to stand by complicit or enable toxic masculinity to be prevalent and running the world. Though I think that that's part of sort of this movement of what's happening is enough is enough.
Matthew 29:11
Yeah. Well, well indeed, I mean - I guess one thing I want to get back to is actually, Lucy, you were saying, because I want to hold that thought as well about the timing and what's happening now, because I think that's as important as everything that's been documented in the series, but I mean, you did allude to this, there was a 60 Minutes piece by Diane Sawyer in the 80s. There's a BBC piece in 99, I believe. Neither one, for whatever reason, can see the light of day these days. I mean, we've been here before, so, what is - I think you said you're not sure why those things were - what's caused those series not to resonate or not to be able to be repeated on air. But I guess you've also had to get everything just - you've had to have this all just airtight, haven't you, in order to make sure that this does get seen and more than just once. Is that fair enough, Lucy?
Lucy Osborne 30:18
Yeah, definitely, with the Gerald Marie article that I did, I think there were eight women that spoke to me for that. Obviously, Carré had already told her story in her book, and a couple of the other women in there had also at least tried to tell their story publicly. But we needed, you know, The Guardian, we wanted to have as many women's voices as possible to show that there was a pattern of behavior that these women didn't know each other, didn't know of each other's story, and yet, we're all telling the same story. And so, for that, it was very much, you know, we wanted to make sure that we had, you know, that it was watertight, and that we had as much evidence as possible. So, I spoke to people, you know, whistleblowers and people within the industry as well, who kind of backed up the models' testimonies, too, and then built quite a long, it was quite a long article in The Guardian, that sort of built the case, really. But that's not to say that the allegations that have come out previously were not, you know, extensive, you know, that they were - I suppose it's a sign of the times as well, that people now are more willing to listen to these things. But I mean, it was amazing when the 1988 documentaries on CBS with Diane Sawyer that you mentioned, I think that that was seen by 8 million people in America. And it was largely about Jean-Luc Brunel, who's one of the men who we saw in the series, and he went on to - he was mainly based in Paris at the time, but he went on to establish an agency in America after that. So, after it'd been seen by, I think, 8 million people in America, he was still able to go on; so, I think it just shows that - and I actually spoke to the producer of that film, and he still today, you know, he's gone on to - he's a Pulitzer winning journalist, and he's gone on to report on many things, he said, it's still, you know, is a real, sort of, he's still really angry about that, you know, that he uncovered all this evidence, and he did it in a - particularly in sort of pre 'me too' era - he did amazingly, to find all that evidence against Brunel, and to actually persuade women to go on camera at the time. These are models who were modeling at the time. You know, pre 'me too', who were going on cameras to talk about this. But, for some reason, it didn't resonate, and people within the industry, saw it, made excuses, and carried on. I mean, these men were very, very powerful at the time, and people just didn't - people within the industry just didn't want to - it was easier just to let things carry on as they were.
Matthew 33:09
And Clare, so, as we were saying earlier, now, what's powerful about this docu-series; well, one of the many things that's powerful is that, like you said, in episode three, particularly, you bring this right up-to-date and right to now and follow this, follow the characters, the survivors, and where they're taking this. So, I mean, it's still live. If our listeners are wondering, we do have to be - this is an ongoing, legal case. There's an investigation going on in France, and we have to honor that. And so, we have to, you know, well, not that we're mincing words or anything, but we do have to be, you know, we're being careful that we don't do anything to undermine, certainly those efforts, but that must have been a challenge for you, Clare, because you got kind of a moving goalpost that you're trying to film here.
Clare Richards 34:10
Well, yes, it was and it wasn't, you know. To have something moving, you know, means action, and it means drive. It means narrative, it means story. And so, to be able to get to a point after decades of abuse, where it feels like there's, you know, people listening and not only people, the justice system listening, finally, was actually a huge blessing. But the sort of the difficulty with it was that, yeah, whilst the judicial system in France had decided that they wanted to hear the testimony of the women that we had been filming and others, it hasn't necessarily moved to a investigation. There's no charge as yet, because of the statute of limitations. So, the importance of that for us is that, you know, we would hope that there was somebody within the statute of limitations that would come forward, you know, on the back of the information that they hear about this series, or these stories, or wherever you find it, to be able to come forward within a - there's a 30 year limit, basically, on any sexual assault or accusation of rape. So, beyond 30 years, they won't hear it. So, it won't be able to be turned into a potential conviction. But the fact that the French judiciary, were open to hearing the testimonies, which, you know, which you can tell from the series that over and over again, you hear the same tactics, you hear the same stories, you'd hear the same familiar kind of lies essentially being told to young girls, that it's difficult to discern because of your age and your inexperience in the world. And so, we would like to think that there would be the hope of a potential prosecution if somebody within the statute of limitations would come forward.
Matthew 36:33
And so, I gather, because - it was one question I was going to ask - I gather, no one who meets that has come forward, yet. Is that right, Carré? Because Carré, you're the one that, you and the three others, you were the first ones to bring the case forward, didn't you, in 20 - was that 2021?
Carré Otis 36:52
Yes, that is correct. And even though I had been outspoken and have this all out in my book, when the time came to actually give my legal testimony in Paris, France, it was - I actually thought about it and was, like, yeah, why? No way. Nothing's happened up until this point, and do I really want to put myself through that. And similarly to the responsibility I felt in writing my book and addressing these issues, I realized it was about other survivors, it was about other victims and the importance to make that contribution - as uncomfortable and exposing as it was - the importance of, in my legacy doing the right thing. And coming forward, not just, you know, for benefit of myself, but for other survivors and to potentially address the issues in the industry and make the industry a safer place, ultimately.
Matthew 37:50
Because you would have known that you were outside of the statute of limitations when you came forward. But that's the whole point, as you've just said, is to pave the way that others who may be, well, as you say, to help effect change in the industry, but also to make it, maybe, easier for someone who does, you know, one of the survivors in one of those who had within the last 30 years to come forward.
Carré Otis 38:19
Yeah. When I also realized that there was none of us that were in the statute of limitations, it became clear that I had a window to file under the Child Victim Act because I was trafficked through the state of New York. And so, I also moved forward with that on behalf of other survivors, because nobody within my group had had the ability to do that. And, you know, sadly, I was in the right place, at the right time, at the right age, when I was trafficked through New York, that I actually was able to go ahead and file charges under that - the Child Victim Act - and it brings the bigger question of statute of limitation reform, and we just had a huge win in the state of New York with the Adult Survivor Act being passed at this point. So, that's a huge win. And, I hope, personally, that this gets adopted state by state.
Matthew 39:09
Okay. I mean, I was gonna ask you about that. I mean, is this something - I guess that's something you're working on as well, because - I mean, I think, I don't know, varies by state, I think sometimes these things used to be 5-10 years; now, it's been extended to 30. But do you think there should be any statute of limitations at all?
Carré Otis 39:29
I do not.
Matthew 39:30
Yeah.
Carré Otis 39:31
I do not. You know, and what we do know is that trauma and the, you know, lived experience of survivors is that it takes many of us, you know, to be out of the acute trauma, and out of childhood to be able to address, you know, what's happened to us. And that process that can take many, many years, and that sort of shared experience with survivors...
Matthew 39:55
Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, is it Jill that is one of the - someone you interview who says that she was well into her 50s before she realized exactly what she had really been through. Is that right, Clare and Lucy?
Clare Richards 40:17
Yeah, Jill didn't realize until Lucy got in touch with her that there was, you know, that she wasn't alone, that she, you know, that ten years earlier, Shauna had been raped by the same alleged man. And then not only that, there was a - she understood that there had been a transaction involved in her meeting with another powerful man, but the level of systematic abuse within the modeling industry hadn't really revealed itself to her until, you know, really until she read Lucy's articles.
Matthew 41:10
And, I mean, on that, I mean, in those cases, and Lucy, as you've pointed out, and Carré's been talking about her own situation, we are talking about - I mean, it's more than just, you know, it's more than just rape and abuse, but this is this trafficking that's been going on. And that's also what - I think, well, it's one of the many shocking things that comes out in this series, I think. I mean, with all that in mind, Carré, you're with, as you mentioned, Model Alliance. So, what is - I mean, besides bringing this case, and fostering, at the very least, a conversation about all this, what are you guys trying to do in terms of the industry? What would you like to see changed? Is it about regulation? What are the things that need to happen?
Carré Otis 42:15
It is about regulation, and it is about, yeah, commitments from, you know, the agents and the power players within the industry to sign up for, say, the respect program, and to create a sort of neutral third party, that is the, you know, governing body over what are the protocols within this industry, and what needs to be created and implemented to create safer workplace, for all of us, it's not just models, it's hairdressers, it's stylists, it runs the gamut. But, you know, across the board it has been unregulated. And many of us have stories about, you know, lack of financial transparency. I mean, I think throughout my time in Paris, I was never paid. You know, I constantly was in debt to my agency, which is a very typical, you know, ploy to keep somebody, you know, to keep somebody vulnerable and to maintain control. Yeah, so that's what I work on. I'm on the board with the Model Alliance, and that's what we're working towards, and finally making enough noise to get an award at the CFDA awards, and be recognized for our work. So, it's an ongoing conversation, and it's going to take a lot of work, and there are those that are very committed individuals.
Matthew 43:39
And do you think there should be a minimum age for modelling?
Carré Otis 43:43
I do. I absolutely do. This is a very grown up world with very grown up issues, and any industry where one's success is based on physicality, I think that's a dangerous game for young people who are still trying to figure out who they are and define themselves, and Lord knows, we don't want anyone to define themselves by, you know, being young. In people being perfect these standards that into this world with all of the technology, you know, none of the images out there portray real humans. They're all, you know, they're all manipulated in some way by some kind of filter. So, I know that the youth, at this point, inner life is tremendously ill affected by what's coming up both on social media and ad campaigns and what we see as portrayed, you know, humans, but they're, you know, we're not seeing humanity in all of its diversity.
Matthew 44:44
Yes, indeed. I think we're actually coming to the end of our time together. I really do appreciate you all coming on. I just want to ask, sort of, maybe one last question - or next to last question, if you will - what do you want this - I'll start with, maybe, I'll start with Clare. Go around the screen. What do you want the legacy of this film to be?
Clare Richards 45:14
I would love it if somebody who was in the statute of limitations came forward after seeing it, and then was able to put their name down in the potential case against Gerald Marie. That would be incredible.
Matthew 45:31
And Lucy?
Lucy Osborne 45:32
Yeah, like as Clare said. I think, also, just to see, off the back of what Carré was saying, as well, you know, to see substantial change within the industry today. And to generate more of a discussion around this, and, you know, the fashion industry, there's never been sort of overhaul; there's never been a - it's the same industry that it was, then; you know, the same issues that models were facing then still exist today. So, to be able to kind of create some change around that would be amazing off the back of the series.
Matthew 46:09
I mean - just to interject there. It was like indentured servitude, what I was hearing and seeing in all the three episodes, but I had no clue. I had no clue how bad it was, in terms of - I mean, and as you said, it wasn't just one person's experience, everyone had that same experience where they had no money, no way to get home. 15, 16, 17 years old and going through this, I can't even imagine. And Carré, what do you want the legacy to be?
Carré Otis 46:45
Absolutely, to provide an opportunity and a safe place for survivors to come forward. And certainly, survivor within the statute of limitations. That would be incredible. And to really address the systemic toxicity that exists within this industry that I think has been in the dark and avoided and dismissed for so long. And this film beautifully pulls all the horrible, agonizing pieces together and portrays it, finally, in a way that's not, you know, ridiculous, and people are able to dismiss it. It addresses it in a very sober, accurate way, which is a victory for all of us.
Matthew 47:30
I agree. And actually, with that in mind, what all of you are saying, if someone has been affected by this in terms of this statute of limitations, or even if they haven't, if someone is - if there's a model out there who has been, you know, is a survivor of such things - what's the best thing for them to do? Should they reach out to the Model Alliance? What would you suggest?
Carré Otis 48:00
Personally, I suggest we have a survivor line at the Model Alliance - a support line at the Model Alliance - and that is a really great place to start and to access resources. And Lucy, I'm sure you can speak to possibly what's been put together with Wonderhood, Guardian, and Sky for reporting.
Matthew 48:25
Yes, could you share this?
Lucy Osborne 48:28
I think Wonderhood and Sky are actually talking to Model Alliance about partnering.
Matthew 48:33
Okay.
Lucy Osborne 48:34
Not sure what - I've been on maternity leave, so, I don't actually know what the latest for that, so, apologies. But you know, of course, I think that the best way to - if there is someone within statute of limitations that wants to contribute to the Gerald Marie case, I think that there are various lawyers now that are representing the women who have come forward. So, the best way, I believe - I mean, I think that Model Alliance, I'm sure, would be able to give some advice on that. And that might be the best way. But I think, you know, they can go to a lawyer who can then submit their testimony to the French prosecutor. But, I mean, of course, you know, my details are out there on social media, and I'm happy to talk to any models that have any, you know, have had experiences, that want to tell their story, you know, if it is something they want to do, if they want to tell their story in the media, that's obviously also an option. But, of course, you know, the priority, if there is someone that can contribute to the case that they need to go and give their testimony if that's something that they're comfortable with. But if, you know, another option, you know, I'm continuing to investigate the fashion industry because I believe that there's a lot more that needs to be told. I mean, this series was, you know, we felt, you know, Clare felt that, you know, rightly that it was the best way of telling this story was to focus on a small number of women so you can really get to know the issues, but whilst they're telling a much bigger story, but there are other perpetrators, there are many other victims that are survivors, and so I intend to continue telling this story and continue reporting on it. So, yeah, there's an option there if people do want to get in touch with me.
Matthew 50:18
All right. Well, thank you. Thank you for all reporting on this story. And thank you, all of you for coming on to the podcast, and it's very much appreciated. I really - really, I highly recommend our listeners you do check this out. Scouting for Girls: Fashion's Darkest Secrets, it's coming to Sky Documentaries on June 6. And just to remind you, we've been speaking with Clare Richards, Lucy Osborne, and Carré Otis. And it's been a pleasure. And thank you so much, and I wish you all well and best of luck in the weeks ahead.
Carré Otis 50:53
Thank you.
Clare Richards 50:54
Thank you very much, Matthew.
Matthew 50:56
Thank you.
Clare Richards 50:57
Thank you for watching the series.
Matthew 50:59
Another big thank you to series director Clare Richards; senior producer, Lucy Osborne, and fashion model, activist, and contributor to the film, Carré Otis. We're talking about Scouting for Girls: Fashion's Darkest Secrets, a docu-series that's coming to Sky Docs on June 24. So, as you've just been listening, we are - besides dealing with some very difficult and troubling issues, there is a legal case involved here, and so, it's only appropriate that we actually share some further information, most notably that a lawyer for Gerald Marie has stated that he, quote, firmly objects unquote, to the, quote, false allegations made against him, close quote. His lawyer added, quote, he remains calm and refuses to participate in the fallacious and dishonest media controversy that has been fermented more than 30 years later. He is withholding his statements for the justice system, in which he has complete faith, close quotes. Gerald Marie remains under police investigation in France and is presumed innocent. John Casablancas retired to Brazil in the early 2000s with the young wife he met at a Look of the Year contest, and he died in 2013. In 2004, Elite was forced into bankruptcy and the brand was sold. The current owners have no connection with the prior management and have strongly condemned the historic allegations of abuse. They are committed to a culture of respect, empowerment, and protecting the safety of their models. Claude Haddad, who is also mentioned in the docu-series died in 2009. He previously denied allegations of sexual misconduct against him. Another man profiled in the docu-series is Jean-Luc Brunel, who declined to comment on the allegations made against him in this film when he was still alive. He previously strongly denied all the allegations against him. Brunel's former modeling agency, Karins, is now under new management, and prior to his death in February 2022, Jean-Luc Brunel declined requests to participate in this series or respond to its allegations.
Matthew 53:26
I'd like to give a shout out to Sam and Joe Graves at Innersound Audio, in Escrick, England, in deepest, darkest Yorkshire. A big thanks to Nevena Paunovic, podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show. And finally, a big thanks to our listeners. As always, we love to hear from you. So, please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas. You can reach out to us on YouTube, social media, or directly by going to our website, www.factualamerica.com and clicking on the Get in Touch link. And as always, please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.
Factual America Outro 54:08
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