38 At The Garden
1 game. 38 points. The birth of a legend.
In 2011, no one knew or cared about an NBA player named Jeremy Lin.
In early 2012, however, that changed, as Lin stunned opposition teams, fans, and the world alike with a series of brilliant on court performances for the New York Knicks. And chief among them were the 38 points Lin scored against the mighty LA Lakers at Madison Square Garden on 10th February 2012.
Success did not come easy for Lin. As Frank Chi, director of new HBO documentary, 38 at the Garden, tells Matthew Sherwood, Lin had to fight stereotypes about what Asian Americans were capable of before he got his chance. And even then, only a stroke of luck put him on the road to Linsanity...
In this episode of Factual America, join Matthew and Frank as they discuss the career of the man whose brilliance on the court destroyed prejudice, built up hope, and left a legacy rich in glory and empowerment.
“The movie is about an impossible moment... A moment when society at large assigns to a group of people, saying you can't do this, and then someone comes out of nowhere and just shatters that to pieces.’ – Frank Chi
Time Stamps
00:00 – Trailer for 38 at the Garden
02:03 – Introducing this episode’s guest, Frank Chi
03:39 – Frank’s synopsis for 38 at the Garden
03:49 – 38 at the Garden: a film about ‘an impossible moment’
04:41 – How Frank experienced Jeremy Lin’s performance
06:49 – How Frank discussed what Jeremy Lin did with Travon Free
08:32 – Jeremy Lin’s response to what happened
10:07 – 38 at the Garden’s three part structure
11:49 – Explaining Linsanity
12:06 – Discussing Jeremy Lin’s career
14:22 – Easter Eggs in the film
15:09 – Jim Calhoun’s high praise for Jeremy Lin
15:24 – Frank’s ‘embedded’ low expectations for Lin
16:32 – How Jeremy Lin never settled at any team
17:25 – Crushing stereotypes
19:55 – The newness of Asian American identity
23:40 – Other Jeremy Lins: Michelle Wu, mayor of Boston; Anna May Wong, and Audrey Nuna
27:30 – Jeremy Lin’s reaction to Linsanity and how he stood up to anti-Asian American violence
28:12 – How 38 at the Garden unintentionally became a film for children
31:09 – The importance of the basketball player interviewees to the film
31:34 – 2022: A very different era to 2012-13
33:16 – The difficulty of being an Asian American story teller and how Traven Free became in involved in making 38 at the Garden
35:41 – A shout-out to HBO for backing the film
38:18 – Frank on his role in RBG, and future projects
Resources
38 at the Garden
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Frank Chi
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 109: 38 at the Garden
Frank Chi 00:00
My name is Frank Chi. I'm a filmmaker and I directed the recent documentary on Jeremy Lin, called 38 at the Garden. Now airing on HBO and available on HBO Max.
Speaker 1 00:17
While I'm watching this live, I'm like, This cannot be happening. This cannot be happening!
Speaker 2 00:21
I think it just blew all of our minds that we would see someone that looked like my cousin dominate on an NBA court.
Speaker 3 00:27
It's the most impossible thing I think I have ever witnessed in my life.
Speaker 4 00:36
When most Americans think about Asians, they think about dry cleaners. They think about IT guys.
Speaker 5 00:42
Small, passive, diminutive, unathletic.
Speaker 6 00:44
The stereotyping, the derision, are so rampant.
Speaker 7 00:49
You don't think no Asian kid this size is gonna be dunking.
Speaker 8 00:54
This is who I am. This is what I'm capable of. All you guys need to do is watch and see.
Speaker 9 00:59
This kid came out of nowhere started balling, like, for real.
Speaker 10 01:01
It wasn't just Asian people talking about it. Everybody was talking about it!
Speaker 11 01:06
The Lakers came in with the idea that we gonna end this fairy tale; we gonna it tonight.
Speaker 12 01:10
But Jeremy just kept making shots.
Speaker 13 01:13
He gave all y'all what y'all wanted to see!
Speaker 14 01:16
Is this the other plot of Space Jam? Like, whose superpowers did Jeremy Lin steal?!
Speaker 15 01:21
Yo, this dude scored 38 points!
Speaker 16 01:23
At the garden, at the Metro.
Speaker 17 01:26
The biggest thing Linsanity brought was hope; it inspired people.
Speaker 18 01:31
The last few years, Asian Americans have just gotten beaten down. And when I think back on Linsanity I long to feel those moments of just pure joy and unity.
Speaker 19 01:44
This moment it broke the matrix for us.
Matthew Sherwood 02:03
Welcome to the fourth season of Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo Pictures, an Austin and London based production company, making documentaries about America for international audiences. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. This week it is my pleasure to welcome Frank Chi, director of 38 at the Garden. The film chronicles the extraordinary ascendance of point guard Jeremy Lin during his landmark 2012 season with the New York Knicks. Lin, an undrafted Harvard graduate, shocked fans, stunned his teammates, and galvanized the Asian American community when he scored 38 points at Madison Square Garden against the Los Angeles Lakers, solidifying Lin's hot streak and the Linsanity craze. A decade later, Lin's stature as a groundbreaking cultural icon stands in stark relief to a recent spate of hate crimes against the Asian American community. Join us as we talk with Frank about 38 at the Garden, Jeremy Lin, and the importance of Linsanity 10 years later. Frank, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?
Frank Chi 03:12
Great. Thanks for having me, Matthew.
Matthew Sherwood 03:14
Yeah, it's great to have you on. As our listeners would have heard in the intro, we're talking with Frank Chi, the director and writer of 38 at the Garden. It's been released out on - you can find it on HBO and stream it on HBO Max. So, Frank, maybe to get us started, maybe you can tell us what is 38 at the Garden all about? Maybe give us a synopsis.
Frank Chi 03:39
So, it's about the night Jeremy Lin scored 38 points against the Lakers at Madison Square Garden back in February of 2012. It's the ten year anniversary, right.
Matthew Sherwood 03:49
Right.
Frank Chi 03:49
And I think that night, it stands out to me personally as, like, one of the two, like, most magical nights of my life. I always put it this way: The movie is about an impossible moment, right? A moment when society at large assigns to a group of people, saying you can't do this, and then someone comes out of nowhere and just shatters that to pieces. And that's actually how the movie came about; the birth of the idea. In 2020, I was having this conversation with one of the producers of the movie, Travon Free, who won an Academy Award for Best Live Action Short in 2021 with Two Distant Strangers.
Matthew Sherwood 04:24
Yeah.
Frank Chi 04:24
So, we're just constantly talking movies, but we're talking culture. We're talking: what are the moments that captivate us? And we were talking about in the context of Obama, right? Because that is the biggest, that is the biggest, impossible moment any of us have ever lived through, right?
Matthew Sherwood 04:40
Right. Right.
Frank Chi 04:41
So, we were like, what other moments feel like that? And I was, like, Look, man, I'm Asian. There's only one answer, right, and it's Linsanity. And the way I framed it to him was the two most magical nights of my life. The first night was when Barack Obama was elected president. And the second was when Jeremy dropped 38 at the garden. That's why the movie is called 38 at the Garden. I was living in Washington DC at the time, and I took the train up to try to get into the game in New York. And the scalpers outside, I mean, they know how big of a game this. They see I'm Asian. And they were trying to, like, I think the cheapest ticket I could find was, like, 700 dollars for like nosebleeds near the ceiling. If you sit all the way on top, like, you're basically touching the ceiling. And I just was like, I can't afford that. I'm, like, in my mid 20s. And I was like, Okay, what can I do? Koreatown's right next door to the Garden. So, I was like, Ah, whatever, like, I'll go to Koreatown, and I'll watch it at, like, a karaoke bar. And I put myself down at one of the bars. And, I mean, once we started this project, working with Jeremy, I told Jeremy, looking back on it, like, I don't think I actually would have traded the experience I had for even being at the Garden. Because I was surrounded by people who look like me, who maybe my age, were a little bit older, and...
Matthew Sherwood 06:02
Right.
Frank Chi 06:03
I mean, you've seen the movie by now, right, like he's lost his mind. He played out of his mind for two hours. So, you had two hours of people just losing it in this bar. They're screaming, they're, like, running around. They're like crying into their beer. I'm doing all those things, too. But like, I'm also an observer. So, I'm like, you know, what's going on here? Like, is it... is it the...? I don't know. Like, is it the cathartic reaction to a wall of stereotypes that all Asian people feel like we deal with? And like, you see this guy break these stereotypes? And, like, you know, you're like, Oh, my God it's amazing, or is it, like, the fact that, like, all of our parents made us play piano and violin and not let us play basketball? So, like, we have, like, these broken dreams. And we see this guy get to live it on the world stage.
Matthew Sherwood 06:48
Yeah.
Frank Chi 06:49
The both? Like, is it, like, is it both of these things? It was both for me, I can definitely tell you that. And I tell the story to Travon. Travon's just like, Are you serious? Like, I've never heard Linsanity like that. He was like, How is that not a movie? Like, Linsanity from the Asian fans' perspective? How is that not a movie? And, to be totally honest with you, like, I think when he first said it to me, my first reaction was to doubt it, right. The first part of the movie is called Doubt. It's like this thing that all Asian Americans deal with, like, nobody cares. Like, I think - first thing I said to him was like, Man, that was eight years ago. Nobody cares what Asian people think in this country, we're invisible. That's literally, like, my first reaction to this idea, which actually, you know, was a great idea. But I thought about it for a couple of weeks. And I was just like, look, we don't know Jeremy at this point. We [don't] know yet whether he'd be down for it or not, but we're like, If Jeremy is down. And we tell this story, we live this moment, from the standpoint of the community, from the people that it meant the most to on the ten year anniversary, when we are going to relive our favorite Asian American memory during what is the worst time to be Asian American in recent history. If we can - this is 2020, Covid, it's already, like, in the first phase, so, like, you know, anti-Asian violence is already starting to creep up. So, I was like, Look, if we can actually make a movie about this moment and reliving this moment in the context of today, then it's totally worth it. And we got to make it happen no matter what. So, I went back to Travon. I was like, Look, man, I made a deck. Like, let's go. So, right after that, we talked to our other producer for the movie, Samir Hernandez. Samir, like...
Matthew Sherwood 08:27
Right.
Frank Chi 08:27
... is a veteran sports person. And, like, knows every athlete in America, it's crazy.
Matthew Sherwood 08:32
Yeah.
Frank Chi 08:32
Within, like, one degree of separation, we were on the phone with Jeremy. And Jeremy, look, you've never - like, he's a symbol but he's also a human being. You can't assume that, like, I just, I think once we love somebody who did something that we, like, just hold on to like that, we forget that they're human. Like, they did something superhuman, so we forget that they're human. And I think my first couple conversations with him, I was just really struck by, like, how much during his career, he was, like - first of all, he was, like, one, I'm not thinking about any of the societal impact I'm making. I'm just trying to not get cut from the team. I'm trying to make it. Right. That was his first reaction to Linsanity. And then the second part of it was, as he had a nine year NBA career, he was just like, Man, like, you know, I didn't want to be defined by Linsanity; I didn't want to talk about it anymore. I needed to, like, write new chapters in my career. And I totally understood that, but it was good to hear that, because that's the human being, that's not the symbol, right. And then, as we got, you know, more into the project and we were like, you know, like, let's not close the project up, like, on Jeremy, we want to close it on the community, want to close it on the Asian American experience...
Matthew Sherwood 09:47
Right.
Frank Chi 09:47
... and make it get as wide as possible. That's when we were all like, Oh, wow, like, you know, like, this project really has to, it has to hit, it has to find a way to really, you know, like, resonate with people and captivate people. I think like, if you're different in any capacity, if you feel like you have stereotypes that follow you around, no matter what your background...
Matthew Sherwood 10:07
Right.
Frank Chi 10:07
... you're going to be able to relate to the movie. That's what we focus on the most is, like, if I was to describe it without any basketball reference whatsoever, I'd be like, Part One is about stereotypes. Part Two is about what happens when someone shatters those stereotypes on the world stage. And then Part Three is about today, when those stereotypes have been weaponized. And when they're weaponized, they turn into anti-Asian violence...
Matthew Sherwood 10:28
Yeah.
Frank Chi 10:28
... like, that's what the movie really is about. And that's why we made it.
Matthew Sherwood 10:31
Well, that's, I mean, that is amazing. And I must say, I do take a little bit of - I'm just glad I'm not the only one that - when I started watching the film, I too was like, I didn't have - I knew about Linsanity; I remember, you know, Obama's talking about it and things like that, right, but I didn't have an appreciation for how much of an impact this had on the Asian community. You know, to me, it was the - you know, obviously, I'm a big basketball fan, so I'm aware of sort of the, some of those stereotypes, certainly, but, you know, it was the underdog story, you know, kind of thing, but not - and now, ten years later, like you say, looking back on this, I mean, maybe putting that into pers - I mean, you've already done that very eloquently, but maybe take us back to sort of January-February 2012 because you said it's about that game against the Lakers. Kobe led. Defending champs, right, I think.
Frank Chi 11:30
No, they're a year removed. They won in 2010 or something. Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 11:34
Yeah. But it doesn't really matter. I mean...
Frank Chi 11:36
... they're competitors.
Matthew Sherwood 11:39
What was - I mean, we've been talking about Linsanity, maybe for some of our listeners who don't know, what was Linsanity and what was it like? It was more than just this one night. It was...
Frank Chi 11:46
Yeah, yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 11:47
It was a few weeks.
Frank Chi 11:49
It was like about two weeks long. I think, it was, like, maybe ten games, something like that, where he - I mean, Jeremy was undrafted. Right. Let me actually just describe it - there's a lot of this is in the movie, like...
Matthew Sherwood 12:06
Yeah.
Frank Chi 12:06
... Jeremy was California Player of the Year, won the California State Championship at high school, got zero recruitment offers. He then goes to Harvard - Harvard doesn't offer athletic scholarships, but he goes to Harvard because it's Division One. He was three times All Ivy League, averaged 18 points a game, he enters the NBA Draft. He feels like he killed it. He feels like he aced the combine, which is the workout, and the draft notes that come back are like, lacks confidence, passes the ball, which is like, if you watch him play, like, that is the opposite of what he is. So, he ends up going undrafted. And then he goes into the league because the Golden State Warriors at the time were just got bought by a guy named Joe Lacob, who's current owner now, he's the one that turned that team into like, the championship team. But Joe Lacob he, his son used to play against Jeremy in high school basketball, California. So, he knew how good Jeremy was, and he saw past the stereotypes. He saw that like, you know, like he was - Jeremy was like, had this wall of stereotypes that was trying to crush him every single stage. And he gets to - so, as Joe Lacob was like, we're gonna sign him, like, you know, like, and everybody on the management team was like, what are you doing? He said No, We're gonna sign Jeremy. That's how Jeremy broke into the league is because there was one guy who was in this position of power...
Matthew Sherwood 13:36
Yeah.
Frank Chi 13:37
... and then said...
Matthew Sherwood 13:38
... no, no, I was just gonna say, I mean, you know, because I know where you're going - obviously, I've seen the film and I know the story, and I know where you're going with this. But even just take a step back. I mean, is there ever been a California Player of the Year who didn't get a Division One scholarship except for Jeremy? I mean, I can't imagine...
Frank Chi 13:55
I don't know for sure, but I think that's probably the only one.
Matthew Sherwood 13:59
And then he ends up - and he's literally playing, because I did read up, he's literally playing across the street from Stanford, right, so...
Frank Chi 14:05
Yeah!
Matthew Sherwood 14:05
... a PAC-12 school doesn't even pay attention. And then, he goes to Harvard, which, okay, that didn't help him, and that only played into more Asian stereotypes.
Frank Chi 14:18
It's funny, Stanford; we have a couple of Easter eggs in the movie. And...
Matthew Sherwood 14:22
Yeah, right.
Frank Chi 14:22
... one of the Easter eggs is the Stanford logo on the coffee mug. In that animated recruitment office. They were the ones, they kept, they basically, they were just lying to Jeremy the entire time. Like, We're gonna offer you a scholarship, and they never did. Right. So, I mean, look, playing at Harvard worked, right.
Matthew Sherwood 14:48
Indeed.
Frank Chi 14:48
Yeah, I mean, he ends up not just playing - I mean, he plays Division One basketball. That's how I first heard - I'm from Connecticut. So, like, you know, UConn basketball is like religion. And he, his junior year he goes into UConn, who just went to the Final Four, he drops thirty on them and dunked...
Matthew Sherwood 15:09
... and Calhoun is saying he's, like, one of the best players he's ever seen, or something.
Frank Chi 15:14
Oh, is that right? I don't even remember that.
Matthew Sherwood 15:15
I think there's a quote from Calhoun saying, We've had, number one teams come in and out of this gym over the years, and he could have played for any of them, you know?
Frank Chi 15:24
Wow. I mean, sounds like Jeff Bradley. That, to me - that's how I - first time I ever saw him, and I was like, Who is this? This is crazy. But I never thought I would hear from him again, right, and this is sort of, like, part of the whole - and you know, Hasan Minhaj, in the movie, talks about this, too, is like this set of low expectations that we have that is sort of deeply embedded in ourselves, right, because Hasan talks about how he first saw Jeremy play in high school. He was like, Who's the Asian kid with spiky hair? Oh, this is cool. This is cool. He's playing on an NBA court in high school. But you know, we'll probably never hear from him again. And then I see him play in college. I say the same thing. Like, Who's that? Oh, I'll probably never hear from him again, right; so, it's not just society, like, it sort of embeds those low expectations into you. Because it's trying to force you to, like, stay within your lane, right. And then he comes out of nowhere. It's funny, I grew up a Knicks fan, but, like, you know, like, I'm a long time dormant Knicks fan, not always a Knicks fan, right; so, like, to see this guy don a Knicks jersey to score 38 points against Kobe Bryant, the Lakers. I mean, it's...
Matthew Sherwood 16:32
... Yeah, so that's the thing. I mean, exactly. So, he was with - I mean, he, you know, not to bore people with the details of the NBA, but he's, like, in the D-League, he's going in and out, he's been waived, he's not sticking with any team. And to be honest, the Knicks don't really, they just need bodies, right, and then...
Frank Chi 16:36
... they have a ton of injuries.
Matthew Sherwood 16:41
... ton of injuries, D'Antoni's like, Who's this? Probably saying, Who the hell's this Asian kid they just got for me?
Frank Chi 16:50
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 16:50
And doesn't want to play him, and then there's just, I mean, something about...
Frank Chi 17:09
Look, you know, they hardly give him a chance, right? Like, he was like, Okay, you know what, like, Jeremy, get in there. And I think - look, all Asian people are looking for the opportunity to just check in the game. Like, that's the best way I can put it, because..
Matthew Sherwood 17:25
Right.
Frank Chi 17:25
... if you walk around in America with an Asian face, you know what set of stereotypes follow you, like, into a party, into a meeting. I mean, even down the street, you know what I mean; like, you know, and you know, that wall of stereotypes is trying to crush you. And Jeremy's story - it matters so much to us because he is the greatest example of somebody who saw that wall of stereotypes we all face; he found every crack in it. He just kept on pushing and pushing and pushing until it came falling down. Like, we're all looking to do that. We're all looking for that moment where we get to check in the game and prove our value, prove what we're good at. And that - it just - it always resonated with me that way. And, you know, so funny; like, Jeremy's such a humble dude. And I obviously I can't - I come from politics. That's why I lived in DC. I make that comparison all the time to Obama. And he has always been like, You got to stop comparing me to Obama! I'm like, Look, I'm not comparing you to the guy who won the presidency, I'm comparing you shattering a specific set of stereotypes for your background, and doing it in front of everybody. Which those - that comparison you can make. And I think it's fair. And that's why the story ten years later, it still resonates with me to the point of wonder; like, I can't believe it happened. You know, I mean, almost the way I look at Obama's presidency; like, Did that happen?!
Matthew Sherwood 17:27
Well, I mean, I think it's a fair comparison. Because, I mean, I have to say, I was asked in 2006, by an intern where I worked here in the UK, Can Obama win the Presidency? And I was like, look, no one named Barack Hussein Obama...
Frank Chi 18:52
Yeah!
Matthew Sherwood 18:52
... is gonna be able to win the presidency. And, you know, two years later, he does it. So, I think to break through whatever you want to call them, glass ceilings, I mean, you know, whatever he...
Frank Chi 19:15
Impossible moments.
Matthew Sherwood 19:15
... yeah, these sorts of things. I mean, I think that is a fair comparison. And I also, I mean, can we overestimate then Lin's importance to the Asian community? And another thing I've picked up on and I - maybe just my own sort of background is that, you know, I think sometimes we also try to divide the Asian community because I've thought of Lin as being Chinese American or Taiwanese American, but what was interesting was to have people like Hasan Minhaj, and others, come on and say, Asian? And they, too? You know, someone with South Asian roots, felt some - you know, they felt this connection as well.
Frank Chi 19:55
Well, you know, like, at the end of the day, like, our interpretation of, like, Asian American identity is still so new. In the United States, I think, you know, the term Asian American comes from a group of activists in the Bay Area who were influenced by black power in the late 1960s. And they were predominantly Japanese and Chinese descent from, you know, the Chinese Exclusion Act, the gentleman's agreement of Japan, like, the old school immigration waves that were cut off by US administrations in the, like, the late 1800s. And then, after the 1965 Immigration Nationality Act, you get this wave of immigrants coming from all Asian countries, India, China, Philippines, Korea; really, you get this wave of new Asian immigrants. And they're called Asian American, which is this old school, activist driven identity created in the late 60s. But they are so tied - and I'll put myself in this category - like, we're all tied to, like, we know what the old country is, right, and, like, the family, like, the immigrant family is very much of that old country. So, now we're like, one generation, two generations removed from that immigration wave. We're trying to figure out what this identity means. And what is the power of it? What is the cohesion of it, in American culture? And honestly, I think Linsanity was a great moment, in that creation of this new identity, which to me is still exciting. And still, like, in the framework of American identity is still new. And that, to me, is what's amazing about it, because it's not sort of set in stone what it means. I'll be honest with you; like, I talked to, like, people who are, like, around my parents age, they will just never accept that, you know, Indian American and Chinese American and Japanese American could be all in the same category...
Matthew Sherwood 21:49
Right.
Frank Chi 21:50
... but I accept it. All my friends accept it. Who knows what it feels like in 20 years, right; like, it's the same thing you ask, like, you ask Italian Americans from, like, the turn of the century, whether they will be identified as white. They'll be like, No way! Right, but, like, look at it 100 years ago... from now, later. So...
Matthew Sherwood 22:07
Yeah.
Frank Chi 22:07
... America's a melting pot, and it's just constantly changing. And identities are changing and being reshaped and reformed. And who knows what it looks like. But I do think that, like, I like that you brought that up, because Linsanity, to me, was a great sort of touch point toward that identity even coming to where it is now.
Matthew Sherwood 22:27
Okay. Well, I think that gives us a good point to give our listeners a early break. And we'll be right back with Frank Chi, the director and writer of 38 at the Garden, streaming on HBO Max and still playing on HBO as well.
Factual America Midroll 22:46
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list, or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter @alamopictures to keep up-to-date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
Matthew Sherwood 23:05
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Frank Chi, the director of 38 at the Garden. You can find it on HBO and HBO Max. So, we've been talking about Jeremy Lin, and we'll probably talk a little bit more about him. But are there any other - I mean, so that was, you know, it's not one and done, you know, are there any other Jeremy Lins out there? Not just in basketball, but, I mean, what are the next - are we, you know - are there going to be Hollywood leading actors? Is that kind of, you know, are these the things that you think about as a Asian American filmmaker?
Frank Chi 23:39
All the time.
Matthew Sherwood 23:40
Yeah.
Frank Chi 23:40
All the time. I think they're all at different stages, right. Like, I'm personally very interested in the mayor of Boston. Michelle Wu.
Matthew Sherwood 23:52
Right.
Frank Chi 23:53
Boston is not a city with a lot of Asian Americans. Here is the Asian American female mayor of Boston. Like, that's an incredible story, already, right. But...
Matthew Sherwood 24:03
Yeah.
Frank Chi 24:03
I'm curious to see how the future shakes out there. I think, for me, I'm always just constantly looking for places where there aren't that many of people who, you know, the wall hasn't been broken yet. And I think - you know, actually, in Hollywood, there are a lot of Asian American actors, right. And, like, you know, like, all of them are, I mean, a lot of them are getting more and more roles these days, which is really exciting. But, I mean, I would say, like, the original Jeremy Lin, if you're looking for Hollywood is, like, Anna May Wong from, like, the 1920s, right. So, it's a different era. But, like, I'm looking at it in terms of, like, music, right. I love Audrey Nuna, who's very young who's, like, in, like, the hip-hop, R&B scene. I love her, right; like, just, like, people who can captivate the attention of the whole country and, you know, by extension of, like, Western society. I think that's, like, a really important point to make; like, I'm not necessarily - we were talking earlier about Asian Americans; like, what is, like, being Asian, in Western society? For a lot of people, people who don't want Asian people in Western society, probably - well, for a lot of people, like, they don't see it as compatible, which is why people are, like, you're just a perpetual foreigner. You know, you don't fit in Western society. You don't look the part. Like, Western society invented multiculturalism, which is what we're all dealing with here. There's beautiful parts of it. And then there's really ugly parts. So, I think that is why - I think Jeremy's story - I mean, we've gotten so much feedback and interest from people who are Asian Canadians, who are Asian Australians, right; like, I mean, I think anywhere where - I mean, Asian Europeans - like, anywhere where there is an Asian diaspora in Western society. Like, one, Jeremy's story reached them ten years ago, and now through this movie, you see it again; like, that's a lot of our comments on iTunes, like, where can I watch this in Australia? Where can I watch this...? And, you know, like, we're seeing that because I think in any facet of Western society, if you've got an Asian face, you feel what the movie I think does a really good job of emoting, which is the idea of belonging, the idea of feeling like you're part of the society that you were raised in, that you want to be a part of. And Jeremy is still the greatest example of somebody who just - he didn't ask to be a part of it. He took it. He took it. Right, he took the shot, right. We talked about that. He took the shot. Which is what - I mean, that's why the story resonates with Asian diaspora folks overall.
Matthew Sherwood 26:48
Yeah. Yeah, no, it's - well, I do highly recommend people check it out. Because it's a - I definitely - I love these films that kind of make for someone like me, who just hadn't thought of it in that way before. It, you know, I think it's - and putting it in the context of what's been happening in the last couple of years. I think that's - you've done a great job. I mean, when you first approached Jeremy, was he, I mean, was he reluctant to do this? Or was he, you know...
Frank Chi 27:21
I mean, I think I said it a little bit in the beginning, right; like, he was, like, I was just trying to survive in the league.
Matthew Sherwood 27:30
Right.
Frank Chi 27:30
Then I was trying to not be defined by Linsanity, right. But look, Jeremy was also one of the first, like, major Asian American luminaries to speak out against anti-Asian violence, when it was first starting to happen in 2020. So, like, we all know how much this issue matters to him. And when we, when we started this project, like, our main insistence was - look, we don't want people - Jeremy included - we don't want people to think about Jeremy, at the end of this movie. And I think that actually is true. Like, we want people to think about themselves, right. You know, there was a young woman who came up to me after a screening recently, she, like, definitely was probably in her mid 20s or something.
Matthew Sherwood 28:11
Yeah.
Frank Chi 28:12
And she was, like, you know, I'm just thinking about every meeting I've ever been in. Because, like, when you feel you have that little stereotypes following you around, they can crush you mentally, right. And I think the other thing, too, is we just - this is the unintentional audience - we didn't realize we were making a movie for kids. Like...
Matthew Sherwood 28:35
Right.
Frank Chi 28:36
We thought we were making, like, a millennial nostalgia movie!
Matthew Sherwood 28:39
Exactly.
Frank Chi 28:41
And, like, I'll be honest, like, if we thought we were making a kids movie we probably wouldn't have so many F bombs in the movie, right. But thank God it's HBO!
Matthew Sherwood 28:49
Well, you know, kids; it's nothing they haven't heard at home!
Frank Chi 28:57
It has been remarkable to watch kids watch it. You know, we premiered this at Tribeca. And at one of the screenings, there was this young kid sitting close to the front and, you know, you've seen the movie, the movie is about anti-Asian violence...
Matthew Sherwood 29:13
Right.
Frank Chi 29:13
He's weeping. He's, like, no older than ten years old. I don't know what you were like when you were ten. But I was an idiot. Like, I didn't know anything.
Matthew Sherwood 29:20
I'm still an idiot!
Frank Chi 29:23
But you know what I mean? Like, there's no movie, unless maybe it was a horror movie that can make me cry.
Matthew Sherwood 29:28
Right.
Frank Chi 29:29
So, I just was like, what has this kid seen the last couple of years? Like, is he being sent to school by his parents telling him, Don't make a noise because they're gonna call you China Virus or Kung Flu? Right. Like, you can't raise a kid like that. A kid needs to see possibility. They need to see their dreams being achievable.
Matthew Sherwood 29:47
Yeah.
Frank Chi 29:47
Right. And Jeremy's story is told to me - and also if you were ten years old, even 15, you either weren't alive or are too young to remember Linsanity.
Matthew Sherwood 29:55
Right.
Frank Chi 29:56
To bring this back to watch this person do this. It's a reminder to children that anything is possible, especially in a society where the stereotypes that you're dealing with are weaponized against you and could turn into violence at any moment. You need reminders that anything is possible. And that probably is the most rewarding experience for me making this and watching people watch it. Because you see the wonder in children's eyes. These tweets we're getting since the movie came out. I mean, like, we saw a tweet yesterday was like, watched it with my nine year old kid. And he said the movie made him feel powerful. Like...
Matthew Sherwood 30:32
Wow, wow.
Frank Chi 30:33
... as a filmmaker, I don't think there's more I can ask for, than to have that kind of impact of a story that we tell. And if people are having that reaction, I mean, we're just, we're grateful and we're blessed.
Matthew Sherwood 30:50
That's amazing. I mean, speaking of reaction, I mean, what about some of these players that you approached to be - I mean, how were they - because that was interesting, too. I mean, what they say is, well, they're very frank about what they're - how they saw Jeremy at first, and how they've, they themselves, I think, have been transformed by this.
Frank Chi 31:09
The movie wouldn't be the movie it is without them being that open and honest about him, right. I mean, I think that's one of my favorite parts of the whole movie is how they talk about it, because they're talking about it in real time. They're like, I didn't really think of anything like this little Asian kid, like, why is - what I see here, right. Like, you're gonna put him in the game? Like, that's...
Matthew Sherwood 31:29
Yeah. Or, he's coming to get my autograph or something, you know...
Frank Chi 31:33
Right!
Matthew Sherwood 31:33
Yeah, exactly.
Frank Chi 31:34
The way they finish that story, back and forth, like, it's amazing, because, like, you see the challenges that he was up against. So, I think, you know, having an - like, a lot of this, too, is, like, this is the power of doing it ten years later. You have some time to think about - when we're in a very different era, like, 2012-2013. Those are the last years of, like, the Obama multicultural era of good feelings. You know, and we all know what happened after. And we're having this conversation now in the world that we're living in now. Whereas when Linsanity happened, it was still in this magical, good feeling era that, at least for me, it felt like, Oh, this is America. Oh, we've achieved this multicultural, multi-ethnic democracy that we always call ourselves. Well, here it is, especially after Obama was re-elected, right. Like, that was the context that we were having that Linsanity conversation, how everybody was having a conversation. And I think, now in the era of anti-Asian violence, in the era of just, like, just more, like, hatred, and more outright hatred...
Matthew Sherwood 31:39
Yeah.
Frank Chi 31:55
To revisit it now is, I think, a lot more powerful than it used to be.
Matthew Sherwood 33:01
And so, I mean, how did you get - I mean, you were saying, you've already told us about how you were talking to Travon Free about all this and getting it - I mean, how did you two meet up, and you get, you know, and is he the one that really helped push this project forward?
Frank Chi 33:16
Yeah, you know, look, I think, especially when it comes to Asian American. I mean, I've been doing, like, storytelling in different capacities, whether it's film or art for my whole career, and I love it. But most of my projects are not about Asian American identity...
Matthew Sherwood 33:31
Right.
Frank Chi 33:31
Not that I don't want to do those projects, but those projects don't get funded.
Matthew Sherwood 33:35
Yeah.
Frank Chi 33:36
You know, and so you're sort of just, like, Oh, I mean, like, I'll put it this way, if you're Asian American storyteller. You're told two things in direct opposite with each other your whole life, which is the first is as a storyteller, tell your personal story, because the personal is most powerful...
Matthew Sherwood 33:50
Right, right.
Frank Chi 33:51
American society is telling you, your story doesn't matter. So, who cares? So, what do you do? Right, because a lot of people choose, a lot of people choose. And I mean, as a storyteller, I was like, I'll just do stories about other folks. I'm really good at it, I'll stay behind the scenes on it. It takes somebody to, like, push you to, like - especially if you're Asian American - it takes somebody to be, like, see the vision, go for it, visualize it, right. And that's very much what Travon was like, in this process. You know, he, I mean, like, he visualized Two Distant Strangers, and he has an Oscar. I mean, talk about somebody who visualizes something and, like, plans for it, right. And to have him as, like, the support system - along with Samir. I mean Samir's, like, the person who, like, knew all the right people to make it; like, you know, like, you have to have two very different producers, and then have a director that all work very symbiotically...
Matthew Sherwood 34:49
Right.
Frank Chi 34:49
... in a way that, like, ultimately very cohesive in order to make a project go and make it special. And I think everybody played that role very well in this project. But it was very much, like, you see your friends visualize success, and you start to believe, right, and, like, Travon is like - I mean, he's not like that just to me, he's like that to, like, everybody in his life! He's like the person that, like, he makes you visualize what it could be and then figure out a plan to get there. So, I'm obviously - I'm eternally grateful for the way that he pushed me on this project. And now we all get to experience it the way I think we all wanted to.
Matthew Sherwood 35:33
Yeah, yeah. And exactly, as you were just pointing out, I mean, give a little shout out to HBO, because I'm sure...
Frank Chi 35:41
HBO. My god.
Matthew Sherwood 35:43
... Did you have problems? Did you pitch it to anyone else, and just got lucky with it?
Frank Chi 35:47
Yeah. I mean, in the initial stages, when it was a concept, we pitched to a couple of places that we thought were, like, very, very good possibility of saying, yes. They didn't say yes. Then we basically were like, Okay, we'll just raise the money ourselves...
Matthew Sherwood 36:00
Right.
Frank Chi 36:00
And we did. And we raised enough money for us to do all the interviews and put together a stringout. And that's when the conversation with HBO began. Travon was, he still was working on a project, a documentary project, with HBO Sports. And one of the producers on that project, they were just having a conversation, and he mentioned 38 at the Garden. And Bentley Weiner, who's the producer at HBO was, like, I have been chasing this story for ten years. I want to see this cut right now, right. And when we sent them the cut, it was immediate, they were like, Don't shop this around. And I cannot explain how incredible this process has been. I'm not just saying that. That's not just lip service. Because the movie is 38 minutes long. We made it a short because we don't want anybody to have excuse not to watch it. It's not an eight part miniseries, it's not even two hours. Anybody has 38 minutes! So, you should tune in, right. Like, they saw that vision, right. They let us tell it exactly the way that we wanted to, which is to have a larger message about this moment and this identity, right now. And then they put the marketing dollars behind it. And now it's everywhere, right. Like, how could you ask for more? From a place that I think a lot of people are just terrified of these studios. You know, I think a lot of creatives think, like, the studios are there to kill their idea, right. And, like, maybe a lot of them are, right. Let's keep it real; like, it's not based on nothing. But for our project in this moment - I mean, HBO has been just unbelievable to us. And I'm not just saying that.
Matthew Sherwood 37:43
Oh, that's awesome. They definitely deserve credit.
Frank Chi 37:48
For sure.
Matthew Sherwood 37:49
I mean, I think we're actually coming up on - we're actually about to come up on I think roughly about 38 minutes, so maybe we should keep it like your film. But, you know, the podcast is longer than the film, but the, you - I've really enjoyed this. I mean, what's what's next for you? Because you've had a varied background, I take it, and is it true: I get on IMDb and you never know with these things. Were you in RGB?
Frank Chi 38:18
I was in RBG, yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 38:19
I mean, RBG, yeah.
Frank Chi 38:21
Yeah. So, me and my friends, like, we were part of the meme. You know, it was the meme that never stopped. It, like, went on for, like, seven years. But that - I mean, look at - RBG is, like, a really good example of a project that I love, which is, like, I come from politics. So, it was, like, political marketing, right. You know, how do we make things go viral? I love projects like that. I will keep on doing projects like that. But I think my main conduit of expression will be film. And it will be projects like this. You know, like, I think, for me, I'm just - I'm really good at strolling down memory lane. If this movie wasn't a good example of it. I love to wax nostalgic. And making people relive a moment that they felt was magical. So, I'm always chasing projects like that. It doesn't have to be Asian American, but it has to be something that matters to society at large in a way that captivates people. So, yeah, those will be what my future projects feel like whether they are on screen, or on your phone, or on your wall.
Matthew Sherwood 39:30
Okay. And do you have anything specific yet? Are you just basking?
Frank Chi 39:34
I can't say!
Matthew Sherwood 39:35
You can't say. No one can ever say! Nor should you have to because my goodness, you should bask in the glory that is 38 at the Garden. So, hey, thanks again for coming on. Really appreciate it. And just to remind our listeners, we've been talking with Frank Chi, the director and writer of 38 at the Garden. It's showing on HBO and streaming on HBO Max. Do check it out.
Matthew Sherwood 39:37
And finally, a big thanks to our listeners. As always, we love to hear from you. So, please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas. You can reach out to us on YouTube, social media, or directly by going to our website, www.factualamerica.com, and clicking on the Get in Touch link. And as always, please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America. Signing off.
Factual America Outro 40:34
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures, specializing in documentaries, television, and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests, and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter @alamopictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films, and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk.