Jason Isbell: Portrait of the Musician as a Young Man

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In 2019, four-time Grammy award winner Jason Isbell recorded his album Reunions. As he did so, he discussed his life and work with director Sam Jones. The result is Jason Isbell: Running With Our Eyes Closed, an unflinchingly honest account of a difficult childhood, Jason’s addiction to drink and drugs, the ups and downs of his marriage to fellow musician Amanda Shires, and how he has poured his life into his music.

In this episode of Factual America, Sam joins Matthew Sherwood to discuss his film and its star. They explore how listening is essential to creating good cinematic visuals, the effect that the Covid-19 pandemic had on Jason Isbell’s life as well as on the process of making the documentary, the ‘triumphant ending’ to Jason Isbell: Running With Our Eyes Closed that in the end didn’t even make the final cut, and points of connection between how Sam makes his films and Jason records his music.

Matthew discovers a promising new form of media (!), while both he and Sam find similarities between Jason Isbell and Amanda Shires and other famous musical and Hollywood couples from the past and present. 

Jason Isbell: Running With Our Eyes Closed is an intensely personal film about a musician at the height of his powers. With his commitment to cinéma vérité, Sam Jones is the ideal man to direct it.

“... the challenge in editing the film was finding these portals between past and present. And what I found is that both past and present inform each other... knowing about his past made the present more rich, and then seeing him in the present struggle gave more context to his past.” – Sam Jones

Time Stamps

00:00 – Matthew introduces this episode’s guest, Sam Jones, and his film, Jason Isbell: Running With Our Eyes Closed
02:21 – Sam explains what Jason Isbell: Running With Our Eyes Closed is about
04:25 – How Sam got involved with the Jason Isbell film project
05:28 – Sam’s approach to making Jason Isbell: Running With Our Eyes Closed
08:39 – Sam on how to create good visuals in a film
10:44 – Capturing Jason Isbell’s and Amanda Shire’s near divorce during filming
15:53 – The effect of Covid on the making of Jason Isbell: Running With Our Eyes Closed
19:05 – Discussing the film’s ‘false’ ending
21:36 – Sam’s filming methodology
23:06 – Jason Isbell’s recording methodology
26:08 – What Sam enjoyed about making Jason Isbell: Running With Our Eyes Closed
29:10 – Discussing Amanda Shires’ role in the film
30:34 – How Jason and Amanda remind Matthew and Sam of other celebrity couples
32:59 – Exploring one simple yet critical scene and a shout out to Sam’s editor, Erin Nordstrom
35:09 – Sam looks ahead to his next project

Transcript for Factual America Episode 131: Jason Isbell: Portrait of the Musician as a Young Man

Matthew Sherwood 00:00 (00:13)
This is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. Part of HBO's Music Box series, Jason Isbell: Running with Our Eyes Closed, takes us on a journey through the singer-songwriter's musical evolution and creative process. With striking candour and honesty, Isbell lays bare his difficult childhood and his struggles with addiction and relationships, while funnelling all of his pain and private battles into his music. Then the Covid-19 pandemic hits. Join us as we talk with award-winning director Sam Jones, about Jason Isbell's creative process, the stress it puts on his relationship with Amanda Shires, and how Covid, perhaps, saved their marriage. Sam even explains to your host how motion pictures work. Stay tuned.

Matthew Sherwood 00:09
Sam Jones, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?

Sam Jones 00:56
Things are good. I'm here in sunny southern California, and the sun's finally out after, like, a winter of Seattle-like weather. So, hopefully, hopefully spring is finally sprung.

Matthew Sherwood 01:12
Well, I'm in England, and we're having similar weather, probably not as warm but we sent two Brits over to work on a project, and it was that week when it snowed, I think, in LA, and it was, like - it was not what they were hoping when they went to LA - when you told them they were gonna get to go to LA; so - but - yeah, well, we're not here to talk about the weather though we can, if you want. We're here to talk about Jason Isbell: Running With Our Eyes Closed. It's part of the HBO Music Box series. And, again, welcome to Factual America. It's an honour to have you on, and I usually ask guests, what is the film about? Well, I think it's pretty obvious, it's about Jason Isbell, but maybe you can give us a little more of a, what is this really about, this film? And what you've captured here?

Sam Jones 02:01 (02:21)
Yeah, well, I think this is a film about a marriage, and a film about creativity, and a film about accepting change, and dealing with whatever life throws at you. And the impetus of the film was to really dig deep into Jason Isbell's creative process. And because he's such a autobiographical writer, and also then a lot of lyricists, and my curiosity was, how deep that went. You know, how much into his own experience in history was he mining in his own songs, and then, I think, also with that, it's helpful to understand where Jason came from, and some of the substance abuse that he went through, and the difficulties with his parents' divorce, because he writes about a lot of those things, and the album that he's making dealt with a lot of those subjects, and what ended up happening in the film is some of those things in his own marriage started to happen, and so, we had this sort of interesting windows into his past through his songs, while we were seeing his future sort of change. And then, of course, the pandemic hit and that threw another wrench into the story. And so, it became a pretty complete portrait of not only Jason but of his wife and...

Matthew Sherwood 02:26
Right.

Sam Jones 03:12
... you know, the way their art collides with their life and how they had to deal with it.

Matthew Sherwood 03:36
And all these things are, it makes for very, very interesting cinema to say the least. But - and I want to ask you some more about those things, but how did this project come about? I mean, how did you become involved [in] this? I know this is part of the HBO Music Box series. We've had Penny Lane on about Kenny G, and I think we've had a few of the others. But were you - I mean, how did you get involved with this project?

Sam Jones 04:05 (04:25)
I had this show called Off Camera for a long time. And Jason was one of my guests on it. And it was a television show about sort of the process of all different kind of artists, musicians, actors, directors, writers. And after getting to know Jason on the show, I realised that his story is really fascinating to me, and I thought it was a film. So, I flew out to Nashville and met with him and pitched him, and he immediately was just in, and - so, it was a self-financed deal with my partner Crawford Shippey and I, and Crawford was also [my] partner on Off Camera. And when the film was finished, and we sent it over to HBO, and then they partnered us up with Music Box, so, it - you know, in terms of the Music Box collaboration, they're just - they are great supporters of all things music related, and they love being a part of that, and I think they saw the film and they thought that it fit with their aesthetic. That's how we got connected with them.

Matthew Sherwood 05:09 (05:28)
So, and as you say, it's very autobiographical, very, you know, songs are very intimate. But how did you decide to, you know, how did you decide to approach this? Because, you know, it at least starts off with - it revolves, as you say, it revolves around this - recording his Reunions album. Was that - I mean, it's almost kind of a throwback to - a bit - in terms of I'm Trying to Break Your Heart with the Wilco doc, isn't it, a bit. I mean, it all surrounds and it at least starts off with an album.

Sam Jones 05:41
Sure. Yeah, I think for me, being in the studio watching musicians do what they do, and revealing their process and seeing the, you know, sort of how the sausage gets made creatively. That never gets old to me. I seek those kinds of films out, you know. And with the Wilco documentary, they - Wilco didn't have a tonne of history. And what's interesting about Jason is that because he started so young...

Matthew Sherwood 06:12
Yeah.

Sam Jones 06:12
... what he did and got picked up by the Drive-By Truckers when he was, you know, barely out of high school, I knew there was going to be a biographical element to this film. And I had never really done a deep mix of verite and biography, and so, for me, the challenge was, I always knew I was going to do that, but I didn't quite know how it was going to work. And the challenge in editing the film was finding these portals between past and present. And what I found is that both past and present inform each other and made - you know, knowing about his past made the present more rich, and then seeing him in the present struggle gave more context to his past and vice versa. So, that was the impetus - all the time was how far can we get into the psyche and process of an artist as talented as Jason, and sort of share that with people who may have never heard of him, you know?

Matthew Sherwood 07:13
I mean - and how do you - I mean, he's, as we said, he's always a very autobiographical, intimate songwriter, but how do you go about creating that intimacy, visually? Because he's certainly doing that through his music. Is that something that - I mean, do you draw on your photographic work, because what struck me is that it's, you know, there's - it's certainly even in the interviews with him, it's very - it's like a talking - well, literally talking pictures, right. It's like - it is...

Sam Jones 07:51
Fascinating new invention!

Matthew Sherwood 07:52
Yeah, how did they do that? You know, but no, but it's very, you know, it's very close-ups, you really, you know, it makes for a very - a very intimate experience.

Sam Jones 08:05
We had to invent cinema to make this film.

Matthew Sherwood 08:08
No!

Sam Jones 08:09
And what we did is we put 24 pictures in a row.

Matthew Sherwood 08:12
Oh, yeah.

Sam Jones 08:12 (08:39)
We discovered - no, I - you know, it's - I think, funny enough, to me, the way to make the best visuals is by being a really good listener. And what that means is that you have to be aware of what's going on in the room, and you have to be sympathetic to it as someone who's capturing images. So, for instance, if a song is being sort of auditioned for the first time in front of your cameras...

Matthew Sherwood 08:47
Right.

Sam Jones 08:48
... you know, partly - because when I do verite films, I shoot them myself, because that's the only way to really direct a verite film is, you've got to be behind the camera. And there were other operators too, but I'm right in there. And what I'm trying to do beyond the technical side of trying to pick the right lens and frame and make sure it's in focus and exposed right and all that, is, I'm trying to listen to what's going on, and let - and put the camera in the place where it best transmits that to the audience. And so, for instance, halfway through the film, there's a song called St. Peter's Autograph, and that was a song that I chose - and with Jason it's tough because sometimes there was only one or two times they'd play it and it would be done; so, you didn't have the, sort of, you didn't have the luxury of multiple takes to just sort of cover yourself from every angle. So, you have to make a choice pretty quick. And on that one I quickly realised that, you know, as close as we could put the cameras would be the right approach for this song and not knowing what it was going to cut to later. Not knowing the context of the editing, and how emotional that part of the film is, I just knew the song itself could stand some really good close-ups, and really watching all the other band members listening as well. So, I think, if you're asking yourself those questions while you are in the room, and trying to make the camera a sympathetic communicator with the audience, then you can achieve that.

Matthew Sherwood 10:24 (10:44)
And, as you said, this is about the creative process, it's about a marriage. It's about the collision of those things, the struggle of pursuing art and not hurting your loved ones. How close were you to capturing a divorce unfold? I mean, it was...

Sam Jones 10:44
Only Jason and Amanda know that. But I certainly - I mean, and I'm not telling tales out of school, Jason says it in the film, he says, We got pretty close to calling the whole thing off, and - and I do know that there were multiple nights where, you know, there was separate orders. And some of that is shown in the film as well. I think that what's interesting about the timing of them running into this roadblock in their marriage is that the pandemic occurred soon after...

Matthew Sherwood 11:14
Right.

Sam Jones 11:14
... and sort of put them in a fishbowl, metaphorically speaking, where they had to deal with each other, and they didn't have schedules and separate touring schedules where they could go off and get back in their routines. They sort of had to address some things that had been sort of swept under the rug, or maybe just not really talked about the whole time they were married. And, you know, Jason says in the film, what we realised is that we're still dealing with issues from something that was unresolved back ten years ago, or eight years ago, and that to me was fascinating, because it gives you this idea that both Jason and Amanda took the opportunity of the pandemic, to do some very hard things within their own marriage. And the film really turns on that because you just get the sense that Jason had to do a lot of growing up, and so did Amanda, and we, you know, we get to sort of be involved in that because once the pandemic hit, we weren't able to be there for a lot of it. So, we sent them cameras, and I would be on Zoom with them or on the phone or, you know, we'd be, they'd be sending media back and forth. And so, I think that it gave them some context for oh, well, we have to deal with this stuff, because Sam's asking questions. And so, it was a really interesting thing and a really brave thing to sort of stick with the original agreement, which is, okay, we're gonna be ourselves on camera, you know, and...

Matthew Sherwood 12:56
Yeah.

Sam Jones 12:57
... and I think - I credit Amanda a lot, too, because she wasn't - the film was not named Amanda Shires: Running With Her Eyes Closed...

Matthew Sherwood 13:03
That's true.

Sam Jones 13:03
... she sort of came along for the ride in terms of she's not going to say no to someone asking, you know, if her husband wants to make a documentary, but that ends up including her, and she could have set boundaries, and rightfully so, you know, stepped away from it in a lot of ways, and she instead, she went the opposite direction, and really leaned into it. And it was really, really a courageous thing that they both did. And, you know, I'm grateful for it, because the story is there. But I'm also grateful for it because I think that people can see this film, and they can, you know, there's some lessons in here, that being human and making mistakes and all those things they're all part of it. And, you know, we see a lot of - when we see things about people that seemingly have pretty good lives, you know, artists that are successful and touring and making records, and they have a pretty nice sized house on a farm in Nashville. It's easy to compare ourselves to those people, just by seeing their outsides and not feeling like we measure up and with this film, I think what they did and talked about, made them very human and probably started a few conversations between couples who watched this film together. So, you know, that was an outcome that I didn't completely expect and I'm really happy for.

Matthew Sherwood 14:35
Okay, I want to follow up on that, but I think we'll give our audience a quick break here, and just to say that we'll be right back with Sam Jones, the award-winning director and producer of Jason Isbell: Running With Our Eyes Closed.

Factual America Midroll 14:50
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter @alamopictures to keep up-to-date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the programme, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.

Matthew Sherwood 15:09 (15:53)
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Sam Jones, the award-winning director and producer of Jason Isbell: Running With Our Eyes Closed. We were talking about Jason and Amanda, and Amanda's part, and her leaning into this, and them taking advantage, if you will, of Covid. But you've - I mean, when Covid hit, you must have - initial thought must have been, Oh shit, what are we going to do?

Sam Jones 15:39
Yeah, yeah, I mean...

Matthew Sherwood 15:40
Yeah.

Sam Jones 15:41
... absolutely, I think - but, you know, what's funny when you're making a documentary, if you don't have at least one of those moments, those "Oh, shit, what are we going to do?" moments, then you're probably not making a very interesting documentary, because, sure, if you're making some - a film about someone who's been dead for 100 years, you probably know how the story starts and ends. But when you're trying to make something about a living, breathing person who's still growing and changing, you have to embrace the unexpected, and you have to be able to, you know, pivot and make changes along the way to the expectations that you had for the film, or else, you know, or else you're just trying to freeze people into a picture that is, you know, ultimately fake if you don't, if you don't keep current with what they're going through.

Matthew Sherwood 16:31
And I mean - it's gonna seem obvious, probably like a lot of my questions, but you embraced Covid. I mean, I say that, because there have been other projects - we've had other people on who kind of like, oh, well, people don't even really realise that we were filming during Covid. But this is - this became such a centrepiece of the story, and it's very interesting how - and, I mean, I guess you could have - we've - it's 2023, you could have, I guess, last year, gone back and tried to do some kind of post-Covid stuff. But that's really, that is the - that frames the story, so well.

Sam Jones 17:09
Well, I don't want to say 'I embraced Covid' because I, for the record, hated Covid.

Matthew Sherwood 17:14
Well, we all hated Covid, but what I mean is, you...

Sam Jones 17:16
No, but I know what you mean, and I...

Matthew Sherwood 17:18
... you leaned into it, right?

Sam Jones 17:19 (19:05)
Well, we sort of, you know, didn't have a choice, and I was curious as to the storytelling opportunities, of what was going to happen in their lives, when they were staying at home for however long they had to stay at home for. And I think that, especially with Jason, you know, one thing that he told me early on in getting to know him is how much he loves going on tour and walking around cities he's never been to. It's his happiest thing, you know, to go to Brussels and just walk for hours. And so, I had this sense that, well, this could be hard for Jason; could be really hard, because as much as he, you know, he's a solid family man and a great dad, like he says in the film, music is the thing that he does that makes everything else possible. So, I do think that, you know - and also, I think, as a filmmaker, once you're in and you've spent a lot of money and you got, you've got a lot of film shot, you don't really have any choice. And I think that, you know, as you're putting a film together, it starts to tell you what parts of the story are a fit and what scenes don't. In other words, when you start to make a film, you're trying to cover your bases, because you don't know, you got to follow sort of every path because you don't know which one is going to lead to something that's unexpected and interesting, and so - and then as you go along, this thing starts to take shape. And it's also - it's often very painful, because as it takes shape, you realise, oh, well, this great scene that I love so much, it's a great scene, it just doesn't belong in this movie...

Matthew Sherwood 19:16
Right.

Sam Jones 19:16
... or I'm making the wrong movie if I'm putting that scene in it. And so, you know, I think that luckily for us, the film told us what the story was - and something I haven't talked about before, but there was a concert that Jason tried to perform sort of mid-Covid where it was outdoors and people were masked and, you know, tested and they cordoned off the crowds and sections and every pod had to have less than six people. It was some insane thing. And we all thought, oh, we should shoot this because maybe this is the triumphant ending of the film that Jason figures out a way to play music during Covid...

Matthew Sherwood 19:58
Right.

Sam Jones 19:58
... we shot all of it. It was probably the most expensive section of the film, and looked at it all and realised it just wasn't our story. And it wasn't the [end of] the story and it wasn't wrapped up in a neat bow that Covid's over or that this is the new way of doing things. And so, we ended up scrapping all of that. And - but that's the interesting thing, once you get a handle on the story you're telling, then things become a little more obvious. It's - the documentary, it's kind of like you're poking around in an unfamiliar jungle at night, and eventually, you know, the sun starts to come up, and you start to see where you're going, and you see where you've trampled, and you know not to go back that way, and you find your way, but it's a process that you can't skip that part of it, you have to go through the unknown to figure your film out...

Matthew Sherwood 20:37
Well...

Sam Jones 20:38
... at least for me. I don't know, I'm not that smart. Smart filmmakers probably know what they want to do from the beginning. They only shoot what they need, but not me.

Matthew Sherwood 21:01 (21:36)
Well, I mean, my experience in talking to documentarians is that, I think yours is more the usual. But, I mean, do you even think in terms of - is it - do you go to the other extreme? I mean, some people approach this, they do have a story arc in mind, and then it all goes, you know, out the window, once you start filming. Did you - do you have something in mind? Or do you just have to play it as it comes, and as you say, the story comes to you?

Sam Jones 21:33
Well, I think there are two distinct categories of documentaries, in terms of beginnings. And, you know, there are the kind where you write the script first, and then you go out and you sort of fill it in, basically, with the story you very much want to tell. And obviously, that is more for a whole archival life arc. Or say you're making a film about, you know, the, I don't know, the invention of cat litter, you know, you could script that, and then you can go out and make the film, because you know the story, you know where you want to go with it. But then you may find out something very interesting about cat litter that you didn't know; so, - but, yes, when you start, there's the discovery approach and a sort of control approach. And I think I'm - I've always been more of the discovery approach, but it's probably the subject matter that leads me down that. The last film I did was about Tony Hawk, and I actually wasn't very good at the - I don't want to say that, but I actually wasn't as interested in the script part. I still wanted to, even though I knew the story...

Matthew Sherwood 22:46
Right.

Sam Jones 22:46 (23:06)
... I wanted to know the story in my head when I interviewed people, but I didn't want to lay out the film until I spoke to everybody. So, yeah, I think it's more of a philosophy of choice going in, and neither one is right or wrong. But yeah, for me, I think part of the joy of it is sort of discovery. And that's where I relate to Jason, too. I mean, he loves presenting a song to his band, and then recording right away, because he doesn't want anyone to get used to it and make a cool mistake that they would never make again. He wants to get all of that. And there's a little bit in common with the way I like to make films that way, too.

Matthew Sherwood 23:27
I mean, is that something in terms of working with him and 400 Unit? I mean, is this some - one of the things you discovered? You know, like you say, you like to be in the studio, the creative process, you've worked with a lot of big names in the music industry, but what - was that - is Jason's approach unique? Is that something that you were not expecting when you went in?

Sam Jones 23:58
Well, he told me that's how he worked.

Matthew Sherwood 24:01
Okay.

Sam Jones 24:01
But I was curious to see at what level that was true. Not that I doubted him, but, you know, there are people who say that, but then maybe they craft the song all day after that initial run. But with Jason, no, it was literally this band had never heard the song. He sat down. He played it once. I mean, a couple of times, I said, Will you please just play it again? We have it, we'd like - we barely got to shoot it. But he's like, I want to record it right now. So, he would play it once then be like, Alright guys, let's go. You know what, immediately everyone's talking, you know, maybe I'll do the - maybe I'll play the Rickenbacker bass on this, or maybe I'll use mallets on the drums or, you know, Sadler, maybe I'll do the acoustic part. And Jason, you just sing. You know, they're instantly thinking, like, what are we going to do and they roll the tape and they go; so, yeah, artists talk about doing that, but I don't know if I've ever seen an artist that is so committed to that and being okay with starting and finishing a song within five hours, or two hours, or an hour, and letting that be on the album forever. I mean, maybe the only person like that, you know, that comes to mind is Bob Dylan because he would often use studio musicians and they'd try six different versions and he'd get bored and move on. And then, you know, you have these wildly different versions and, you know, that, to me is the most beautiful creative thing you can do is trust yourself enough as an artist to just kind of let it be without trying to control it so much.

Matthew Sherwood 25:36
And did anything else surprise you about working with Jason? Or maybe another way, you know, in terms of Jason's fans, what are they going to - not giving the movie away - but what are the kinds of things they're going to learn that they may not have already known?

Sam Jones 25:49 (26:08)
Well, one of the things that I really enjoyed doing was digging into the Drive-By Truckers' history, because I had listened to that band, and I really liked that record, The Dirty South, and - but there was so much to learn about their history, and how it sort of, it was sort of tinder, or kerosene and tinder for Jason's drama and issues to surface, and he went out on the road with very little, you know, very little tools for lack of a better term, to deal with the world he was thrown into, and it ate him up and spit him out. And in a band of complete drunks, Jason got fired for being too much of a drunk. You know, which is hard to do when you think about the Drive-By Truckers and their reputation. And to go back and talk to Patterson Hood of that band, and have him with the benefit of 15 years of hindsight think about some of the things he wishes he would have done different. What was a really touching moment for me is that, I think when he was young, he didn't realise the responsibility he sort of had by bringing Jason to the band because Jason was, you know, a generation almost younger than those guys, and, like, you know, like they said in the film, he said, I'm the one who put him in the van and told his mom he was going to be okay. And I think that when you're younger, and you're on the road, you don't think much about responsibility, and talking to Patterson and having him sort of take accountability for his part in Jason's story was to me a really touching thing. I think it's such a beautiful thing, when you check in with someone after a period of time has passed, and you see that they've grown. You know, I'm in a band myself, and we stopped playing for a long time, just because of kids and families and everything got in the way. And we recently got back together and to see these guys that I knew so well, and that they're not the same people; they've grown and they've changed, and I hope I have as well. And it's a beautiful thing, and so, I think, you know, that moment, and then watching how Jason and Amanda dealt with their problems. You know, I went through a divorce, right as the movie was being filmed. So, obviously, a lot of that film was about the questions I was asking because it was what I was going through as well. And so, you know you're on the right track on a project when all those things sort of dovetail together. And, yeah, so I think for me those things - those experiences were unique to this film and very personal to me.

Matthew Sherwood 28:51 (29:10)
And bringing it back to this relationship that is at the centre of this film with - I mean, did you know Amanda was going to be such a big part of the film going in?

Sam Jones 29:07
No, I didn't. I mean, I knew she was going to be a part of the film because, you know, I have a tremendous amount of respect for Amanda's songwriting and her playing and her - just the way she lives life as an artist, and that really surfaced during the pandemic. I think she really blossomed. Talk about taking advantage of the pandemic. She started an online music variety show, she began painting, she wrote albums, she - you know, she planted this amazing garden. She's an incredible woman, and I - so, yeah, I knew she was going to be a part of it because I could tell how close they were even from songs like 'If We Were Vampires', and that Jason had written about his relationship in the past a lot. But yeah, I didn't know to this extent that she would be tuned in and connected to what we were doing and how much more by including her we learn about Jason, too, you know.

Matthew Sherwood 30:13 (30:34)
I mean, one - not to - I mean, what struck me, too, as well - I mean, this - in some ways they're like a, at least for me personally, they're almost like a throwback. I mean, if you'd had a camera following, you know, like Johnny Cash and June Carter Cash or whatever, you know, what would you have uncovered, you know, not just because of the same, similar, genres, I'm just saying it did remind me of - they're almost in some ways like throwbacks to another time.

Sam Jones 30:41
Well, I think you could say that, too, about, you know, Spencer Tracy and Katharine Hepburn...

Matthew Sherwood 30:46
Exactly.

Sam Jones 30:46
... modern version of that; a couple that, you know, acts and films together. And, I don't know if that's John Krasinski and Emily Blunt who it is, but, you know, what it is, I think, is that Jason chose at a very young age to live the life of a songwriter and a guitar player, and he is a historian and a scholar, and a very curious guy, and he's obsessed with those things to this day. So, I think Jason has a great knowledge of, you know, couples who have been together, written music together, and so, to me, I think that when you pick the right partner, and you're fiercely trying to be yourself, and trusting that the bond is going to stretch, but hopefully it won't break, you can become much more fearless, much greater artist in that situation. It blows up on 90% of people, because it's incredibly hard to have two creative [people in a] relationship. I mean, it's the hardest thing in the world to, you know, to not have someone take a more passive approach or a more backseat approach. And Jason and Amanda are both fearless artists. And so, it's a difficult dynamic, but when it works - yes, I get it why June Carter and Johnny come up because they, that's the life they wanted. And the joy that comes from being in a family that plays music together is the most beautiful thing. And I think for Jason and Amanda both, it's worth it. It's worth working on it.

Matthew Sherwood 32:35 (32:59)
Well, and did you - I mean, one last thing on that. I mean, did you imagine that one of your - a key scene - was going to all be a debate about which preposition to use in a lyric.

Sam Jones 32:49
I think the key scene is, revolves around a Yaroomba robot vacuum, myself.

Matthew Sherwood 32:55
Yeah!

Sam Jones 32:56
But no, the - you know, when you start a film, and it's a documentary, and you're trying to introduce the audience to your characters, it's rare that a scene will lay itself out, like, on a platter to you like that. And I pretty quickly knew it was a great place to start because it, without having to tell anybody about those lives in voiceover interview, you really understand the dynamic of every single person in that room, the whole band, the producer, Jason, and his wife, through the way they are dealing in that scene. And when we leave that scene, we kind of feel like we already know these people. And so, yeah, if I had missed that, and if our editor - I should say, by the way, that our editor on this film was amazing. Her name is Erin Nordstrom, and she did I Am Trying To Break Your Heart with me as well, and then we didn't work together till now. And I called her I said, You know, this is a film that - it's very handmade. And I'm, you know, all in like I was on I Am Trying To Break Your Heart. It's very independent to me. So, I think that we should get the band back together, so to speak, and do it again, and I think we both found that scene, and we're like, oh, yeah, this is where it starts. You know, we understand Amanda's role, we understand Jason's role. We get it. And, boy, it's sort of a nice thing too, because you get that sort of uneasy humour because it's funny, but also just a little tension there. And then the audience can - is on board with watching where that tension goes, you know, in subsequent scenes.

Matthew Sherwood 34:36
Well, you certainly had me hooked.

Sam Jones 34:39
Thank you.

Matthew Sherwood 34:39
Yeah. We're actually coming to the end of our time together, Sam, but what's next for you, if you can share.

Sam Jones 34:50 (35:09)
So, I have a documentary series coming out on Max, which is the new HBO Max but they dropped the HBO part...

Matthew Sherwood 34:58
Okay.

Sam Jones 34:59
[...] understand it, but I'm very excited about, I've directed a six part series on Smartless, the podcast.

Matthew Sherwood 35:06
Oh, wow.

Sam Jones 35:07
And for people that don't know, it's Jason Bateman, Will Arnett, and Sean Hayes, and they have, like, the most popular podcast in the world, and they took it on the road, and we took a camera crew, and it was sort of almost like a rock tour in the sense that they all travelled together and stayed in hotels together, but they also sort of have this brotherly or bandmate relationship to each other that is combative and teasing and funny and loving. And I just, it's pure verite, the whole way. There's not one interview, there's not one piece of archival. It's just a pure verite film, where you get to join their gang for six episodes, and I'm so excited about it. And that comes out May 23 on Max.

Matthew Sherwood 35:53
Okay, well, I can't wait to see that. That's gonna be really cool.

Sam Jones 35:58
Yeah, it's a lot of fun. I got to shoot it all in black and white, too, which is something that I love.

Matthew Sherwood 36:02
Excellent. Excellent. We look forward to seeing that, and look forward to having you on again, if we haven't scared you off. So, Sam, thank you so much for being on Factual America. We really, really enjoyed having you. And it's a - if you haven't checked out Jason Isbell: Running With Our Eyes Closed, please do because it's definitely well worth a watch. So, thanks again, Sam. It's great having you on.

Sam Jones 36:28
Thank you, Matthew, you're very good interviewer, and, you know, except for not understanding how movies work, your questions were very smart, and I'm glad, you know, I can tell you watched the film, and you really paid attention to it, and that's the best compliment you can give a filmmaker especially in this day and age of fractured attention spans.

Matthew Sherwood 36:51
Well, thank you. You're too kind. But also, thank you for introducing me - I thought I knew - I'm a music fan, I like country, I like alt-country, I'm a big Wilco fan but I wasn't that familiar with Jason Isbell, and I don't know why, but I am now. And he's got a new fan in myself because I think he's brilliant. Everything I was listening to on that - certainly on that Reunion album - was amazing.

Sam Jones 37:21
Yeah, that's one of the lucky things that I'm able to do occasionally, through films, is you get to introduce someone to an artist they may not have heard of. It's kind of like a really expensive, long way to make a mixtape for somebody.

Matthew Sherwood 37:37
Exactly! Yeah, no one makes mixtapes anymore. I wonder why - that's another one I've - gonna have to get to...

Sam Jones 37:43
Oh, they're called playlists. There's this thing called Spotify. I'll explain it to you later.

Matthew Sherwood 37:48
Okay, well, all right. Well, next time we have you on, Sam, I look forward to that. All right, take care. Thanks again, and good luck with everything and I can't wait to see the Max docu-series that comes out next month.

Sam Jones 38:04
Thank you, Matthew.

Matthew Sherwood 38:05
All right, take care.

Matthew Sherwood 38:09
I also would like to thank those who help make this podcast possible. A big shout out to Sam and Joe at Innersound Audio in York, England. Big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show, and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to our listeners. Many of you have been with us for four incredible seasons. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. Please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.

Factual America Outro 38:50
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures, specialising in documentaries, television, and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests, and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @alamopictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films, and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk

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