Tina Turner: The Queen of Rock and Roll's Untold Story
On paper, Tina Turner probably should never have become a rock-and-roll superstar. But there she is anyway, one of the greatest survivors in modern music, who has overcome extreme adversity to define her career, her identity and her legacy on her own terms.
TINA (2021) offers a fresh perspective on the life and career of Tina Turner, the Queen of Rock and Roll. Through never-before-seen footage and previously unreleased recordings, the film draws back the curtain on Tina's life, introducing us to a private side of Tina too often hidden from the cameras.
We are honoured to be joined by the Oscar- and Emmy-winning producers of TINA, cousins Simon and Jonathan Chinn, the co-founders of Lightbox. Between them they have worked on such acclaimed documentaries as Searching for Sugarman (2012), Man on Wire (2008), LA 92 (2017), and Whitney (2018).
Simon and Jonathan talk about how they discovered new ways of telling Tina's story, the revelations that they uncovered about Tina while making the film and what it takes to make a great documentary.
Directed by Academy Award-winners Daniel Lindsay and T.J. Martin, TINA is being released on March 27th on HBO and streaming on HBO Max in the US, and in the UK on 28th March at 9:00PM on Sky Documentaries and NOW and via altitude.film.
“What an incredible trailblazer of a performer Tina was, even before her solo success. Seeing the full trajectory of her career as a performer is, in some sense, a revelation.” - Jonathan Chinn
Time Stamps:
00:25 - The trailer for TINA, and introducing our guests, producers Simon and Jonathan Chinn.
04:00 - The challenge of telling Tina Turner’s story in a new way.
05:23 - The synopsis of the film.
08:36 - The new and fresh insights this film offers about Tina Turner.
12:16 - The importance of Buddhism in Tina’s life.
15:00 - Her struggles after leaving Ike Turner and before she made it big as a solo act.
18:35 - Tina Turner as a trailblazer in the music industry of the 1980s.
23:45 - Tina’s connection with London, and why many musicians have moved to the UK.
27:40 - Why the film was made, and how directors Daniel Lindsay and T.J. Martin got involved.
34:15 - The script and structure of TINA, and the archival material used.
38:00 - The never-before-seen footage from Ike and Tina’s house.
43:10 - What it takes to make a great documentary film.
47:30 - Why winning an Oscar is not just about the quality of the film.
49:13 - Advice for young film directors.
50:06 - The next projects that Simon and Jonathan are working on.
Resources:
TINA (2021)
Searching for Sugar Man (2012)
LA '92 (2017)
Lightbox
Careers in Film
This is Distorted
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Simon Chinn:
Connect with Jonathan Chinn:
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 53 - Tina Turner: The Queen of Rock and Roll's Untold Story
Jonathan Chinn 0:00
Hi, I'm Jonathan Chinn. I'm the co founder of Lightbox and one of the producers of the HBO Tina, documentary about Tina Turner.
Simon Chinn 0:10
Hello, my name is Simon Chinn. I'm the other co founder of Lightbox and I'm a producer of Tina, the feature documentary we've just made about Tina Turner.
Speaker 1 0:21
This is interview one take one.
Tina Turner 0:27
My mother, she used to sit in the window of the kitchen when she was making dinner on Sundays. I used to just watch her. I thought she was so pretty. One day she wasn't in that window. She was never in it again. I wanted her to come for me. And I waited. She never did. And it's all right. You know why? I'm a girl from a cotton field. I pulled myself above the destruction and the mistakes. And I'm here for you.
Intro 1:26
That is a trailer from the soon to be released HBO original documentary Tina. And this is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo pictures, a London based production company making documentaries about America for international audiences. Today we have an exciting episode as we discuss the life and career of the queen of rock and roll Tina Turner. It is a privilege then to be joined by the Emmy winning and Oscar winning producers of the soon to be released. Tina Turner documentary, cousins Jonathan and Simon Chinn. Jonathan and Simon, welcome to Factual America.
Jonathan Chinn 1:59
I am in LA. Thank you for having us. Everything's good. Looks like life is getting slowly back to normal and we're excited for the film to come out at the end of the month.
Matthew 2:10
Okay, excellent. And Simon, how about you? You're in London?
Simon Chinn 2:12
I am. I'm in London. Yeah, this is the way we roll. We do our business by zoom these days.
Matthew 2:21
I saw you had an article about working from home last, I think that came out in April or something and had a lovely office, I will say. I need to get a home office like that one. So the film, as you've said, film is, Tina. Only needs one name, like a great Brazilian soccer player, she only needs to be known as Tina. Oh and Gleiberman from Variety says: "I went into “Tina” feeling like I knew this story in my bones, but the film kept opening my eyes — to new insights, new tremors of empathy, and a new appreciation for what a towering artist Tina Turner is." I don't think I could say it better myself. That's certainly my impressions. Premiered at Berlin International Film Festival on March 2. In the States, it's releasing on HBO and be streaming on HBO Max from March 27. Drops March 28 in the UK on Sky documentaries and Now TV and also available on Altitude.film. And for those of you not in North America and Britain, well, stay tuned, it will be coming out soon. And it will be coming out theatrically. Unfortunately, not here in the UK. Not for a little while. But do stay tuned for that. I can imagine it would be amazing on the big screen. I've seen it on a 15 inch laptop. But it's and even there it was great. So also we give shout out to the directors, Daniel Lindsay and T.J. Martin. And so thanks again so much, Jonathan, Simon, for coming to the podcast. It's an honor to have you. Congratulations on this finally being released. And my goodness, you guys have quite a filmography. But you must be pretty happy with this result.
Simon Chinn 4:03
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, we're thrilled with the film. I mean, it was definitely a, you know, as you may be aware, these feature docs, particularly the music ones, can sometimes be a real marathon. You sort of start with a blank piece of, dauntingly blank sheet of paper. And I guess in this one in particular, kind of the challenge or the daunting thing was that just simply that this story has been told many times very well. So what can we bring to it that will revitalize it? That will offer audiences something that they didn't know, that will frame it in a way that adds something to the narrative that people know? So yeah, I mean, it was definitely, that was the big challenge of this film. So I'm glad that you think we achieved that.
Matthew 4:59
Yeah. I definitely think you achieved it, you definitely pulled it off. I mean, we normally ask people who come on to give a little synopsis of the film. It seems kind of funny to ask that question because we are talking about Tina Turner. But maybe, maybe just so for our listeners, and some won't be as familiar, of a certain generation and younger maybe. Simon, we'll start off with you - what's this film about? Maybe give us a little synopsis.
Simon Chinn 5:24
Just following on from what I was saying. Everyone knows the concept of a Tina Turner story. It's one of the great music stories or stories of the performance of our time. It's fundamentally a story of survival, of transcending a difficult life, a really difficult life, and triumphing in the face of adversity. So we know that, right. But what makes I think this film a bit different is that we're sort of reckoning with something else, which is Tina Turner, at in the sort of twilight of her life, looking back on her life, and coming to terms with her story, and the way it have been received. And this is something that she's always struggled with. She actually told her story of abuse at the hands of Ike Turner, in order not to be defined by it, far from it, but it's to get away from it. So ultimately, the film is about Tina coming to terms with that story and that legacy.
Matthew 6:34
Yeah. And Jonathan, I think, as Simon's already kind of talking about, is that it's kind of hard to believe it's the first time the whole story has been told, isn't it? I think, for some of us who've come up with a certain age, the story has become a myth. And I mean that in this one meaning of the word myth. You know, it's just become legend. It's there. And yet, for a lot of us, we didn't really know the whole story, did we?
Jonathan Chinn 7:02
Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of us knew the 10 poles of the story, you know, the kind of basic structure of her story. But I think what Dan and TJ are getting at with this film that was exciting to us, and hopefully will be exciting to audiences, is that they're not only interested in the details of the story, but they're also interested in the story of the story. As a sort of meta level to the film that I think raises some really interesting philosophical and existential questions about one's legacy and one's relationship to one's own story. And I think we were so privileged to be able to for Tina to sit down, you know, in her 80th year, and start to reflect on her feelings about her own story. And I think that gives the film a freshness and a point of view that hopefully, for viewers who know the story will be exciting. And for those who know the story less, they'll get the story, but they'll also get the context of the story within Tina's full life.
Intro 8:18
Not gonna go into details of the film, in the sense of, you know, we don't need spoiler alerts. And it's well worth, it's the quickest two hours I can remember, I must say...
Matthew 8:30
That's a compliment.
I've had in a while. But Simon what new insights does this film offer up?
Simon Chinn 8:37
I think, Tina herself, and her kind of engagement with the story of her life in this film does feel unique. I haven't seen Tina talk in this way about her story. And part of that is we interviewed Tina in 2018. Right? So that was pretty much the first thing that we did, you know, she didn't want to sit for a very long time, we totally got that. She was never going to be the, she was never going to sort of be telling her story in that form in a sort of very granular way. But I think what actually Dan and TJ got to, in a relatively short interview, was a sort of the sweetness and the modesty and the dignity and, I don't want to say ordinariness, because she's not ordinary, but the kind of lack of airs and graces that actually Tina Turner has in abundance. And that I think will be surprising to people. You know, she talks in a very sweet way about her relationship with Erwin, her current husband, you know. She talks in a very forgiving way about Ike. But also we have these tapes that we've discovered. These research tapes. The one was the tape, the interview, the research interview that Kurt Loder did with Tina for their book "I, Tina". And the other was the research interview that a journalist who kind of broke the story of Tina's abuse for People Magazine in the early 80s, Carl Arrington did. And those tapes also, I think, offer a very, very different side of Tina. They're sort of raw, they were never intended for publication. So there's a very sort of intimate, raw, not that far from the event she's talking about, quite emotional Tina that you're hearing. To me, that is the revelation in the film. It's Tina, the person, in a way you've never heard her before.
Intro 10:58
Well, I think it's something I was going to ask you about, certainly as we continue with this conversation. But since you've raised it, I mean, this People Magazine interview, and these research tapes you mentioned. They should both get a narration credit, I guess, they're very interesting. And so, there's this People Magazine from '81, it looms large in her life, and it looms large in the film. And I guess, Jonathan, this was supposed to be - once and for all, I tell the story, and then I'm done with it. But then that's not what happens over the next 40 years, is it?
Jonathan Chinn 11:41
It's not what happened. And the interview was done, you know, it was a story. It wasn't front page story, interestingly. I think Johnny Carson was on the front of that magazine, which tells you something. I think Tina was in, you know, she was in a transitionary stage of her career. But she felt that she wanted to get the story out, to be rid of it for her own emotional journey. I also want to add, you know, one of the things that sort of revelatory is Tina's relationship to Buddhism, which I wasn't aware of, how important Buddhism was in her sort of trajectory of her life. And it's still important to her today. We're going back to the People magazine article. Yeah, she told the story for the very first time about her and Ike, publicly as an attempt to sort of flush it out of her life in a sort of Buddhist way. And people really responded to the story. And it started the trajectory of defining her biggest story. And from then that was, you know, then she wrote the book with Kurt, in order to put more flesh on the bones and be done with it. Then Disney bought the rights to the book and made the movie What's Love Got To Do With It. Which, you know, in a very revealing moment in the film, at the time of the festival, that actually, she admits that it was too hard for her to watch the film. And then of course the musical in London and on Broadway. And in some ways, you know, our film is the final chapter, where she actually talks about all those other iterations of her story. And expresses, for the first time, I think, in the public, her feelings about her story. So, in some ways, the documentary, hopefully, is the end of that story for her. And she can, as she said so beautifully, bow out gracefully, and as Simon said, sort of come to terms now with her story.
Intro 14:06
And Simon, I think that's what struck me. For those of us who have a, I was in high school when she hit big in sort of the 80s. It feels like, once you get to sort of what's love got to do with it. That's kind of where the, almost for many of us in the public, that's where the narrative ended. But, as your film captures, and as Jonathan was talking about, there's so much more to it. And things that, I mean, there are some things in this. You said you didn't know about the Buddhist element. I do vaguely remember that. But I don't remember her being a cabaret singer, struggling. That was amazing, you know, a 40 year old single mom with four sons, no alimony, no child support, trying to make ends meet. You know, that's amazing.
Simon Chinn 14:56
That section also, I agree, does feel revelatory, doesn't it? And actually, it was one of the things that Dan and TJ, the directors, were first really kind of got interested in, before actually they'd met Tina. They were sort of just totally fascinated with the detail of what happened between leaving Ike and her solo success. When you really kind of get into the detail of that, it's kind of awe inspiring, isn't it? She was, really she had to start from scratch, in such a sort of practical way, you know. And sort of having had a real status in the music industry. To do that requires incredible humility. To sort of go back to the bottom, as it were, and build yourself up from nothing, just the actual dynamics of the emotional aspects of that, is sort of, it's in a way, the most inspiring thing about Tina. And I guess my observation about her is that she's sort of never lost that. I think we found her as a person to deal with, you know, she has a lot of humility, as well as a lot of the kind of qualities that any star has, but yet she has a lot of humility about her.
Intro 16:25
Because, you say the humility, but yet being able to, even when she's, you know, singing in some lounge, basically, in San Francisco, knowing and not making a very good impression on her future manager, Roger Davies, at least in the first session, to have that vision. I mean, most people would laugh at themselves, if they came out with things like I want to be filling football stadiums full of people and being the leading woman of rock and roll, and I want to do this and that. And you're, as you say, nearly at the bottom. To know that you've got the talent and the ability to achieve that. And then to pursue it, it's quite amazing.
Jonathan Chinn 17:10
Well, also, especially, in the face of the odds that were stacked against her. Let's not forget, she was a black rock and roll singer, without her partner at that stage, her creative partner, because she had run away from him. You know, not a young woman anymore. And I think the film does a great job of presenting the prejudices in the music industry, in the higher echelons of the music industry at that time. Just put that on top of everything you just said in terms of, you know, she probably shouldn't have succeeded on paper. But there is something about her and certainly her relationship with Roger, which you mentioned was key. I mean, Roger was key in, you know, helping Tina achieve her goal to be as big as the Rolling Stones. But at the time, it must have seemed like a kind of a crazy dream, based on the fact where she was and what she was going to be up against in the establishment.
Simon Chinn 18:12
The other thing that I'm always struck by when I watch the film is this, you know, what an incredible Trailblazer of a performer she was, pre her solo success, you know, with Ike. And that's, in a way, I guess the other thing, it's not a revelation, but seeing the full trajectory of her career as a performer, sort of laid out in this way, is in some sense a revelation. Because, you know, I guess, yeah, she was sort of building on that. She was building on something, something very innate, you know, some real innate talent. And frankly, a lot of, a huge amount of self belief. And the fact that she was able to sort of have that self belief and maintain it, after everything that happened to her, is extraordinary. But she had it, she never lost it. And I guess she also had something else, which is the willingness to graft, you know, the willingness to do the work.
Jonathan Chinn 19:19
She clearly has and had extraordinary coping mechanism that others in her industry, you know, who have crashed and burned, don't have. And I think, there's something very grounded about Tina that comes through when you look at her life in totality. You know, she didn't go off the rails with drugs and alcohol and all that stuff.
Simon Chinn 19:51
Ground is a great word, actually. Because, in a way it's the key to her, I think, is that, despite the fact that she lives in a mansion on Lake zero, which is incredible, you know, having as Grammys and whatnot Platinum records coming out of her ears. She does, she just is incredibly grounded. And very private, you know?
Intro 20:17
I mean, I guess she still is, she's that girl from that little town in western Tennessee, you know.
Matthew 20:24
Girl from Nutbush.
Nutbush, exactly. But yet, it still always comes back to this story, that just keeps, I hate to use the term, but haunting her, really. I think the film rightly raises up the stares at her husband, even kind of puts in these terms, that she's basically like a soldier who's going through Post Traumatic Stress Disorder every time. And I think you have a great sequence, where you're just showing these, she's already made it big, but every interview she goes to, she's made to relive this. There's a cringing one with, she's next to Mel Gibson in there. You know, done Mad Max and the looks on his face, he can't even hide the fact how disgusted he is with the questioning.
Jonathan Chinn 20:32
That is a very telling look on Mel Gibson in that interview for sure. Because I think he feels incredibly bad for Tina in that moment. And feels that she's being hijacked in a certain way. But look at the grace that she sort of deals with it, you know. I mean, that's Tina. You know, she deals with, she dealt with those things with grace, but strength. And must have been incredibly, incredibly painful to constantly be pointed towards a part of your life that you want to move beyond. But, you know, I think Tina says it, it's a double edged sword, because I think, let's be honest, a lot of women have suffered at the hands of their partners and their husbands in similar ways. And so, you know, I think she also understands that there is a responsibility to sort of survive and be an inspiration. But the problem is, is that it's very painful for her to do that. And so that's the real tension, I think, of her legacy, in a certain way that I think, in making this film, I'd like to think that she has gained some peace about.
Intro 22:28
Okay. I think that takes us, we're about, well, halfway in. So I think we're going to have a little break here. And then we'll be right back, let our sponsors say something and then we'll be right back with Jonathan and Simon Chinn.
Factual America midroll 22:44
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Matthew 23:02
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Oscar and Emmy winning producers Jonathan and Simon Chinn, film is Tina. It's releasing on HBO and streaming on HBO Max from March 27. Drops March 28, in the UK on Sky documentaries and Now TV, also available on Altitude film and there is a theatrical release. Just check your local listings, I think is what they might tell us to do. So, obviously been talking about Tina Turner. One thing, just for me personally revelatory, we are a UK based podcast. I didn't realize she had this London connection that looms large. She basically escapes to London, doesn't she?
Jonathan Chinn 23:47
She's not the only artist, you know, to have done that. Obviously, famous artists like Jimi Hendrix, you know, he couldn't make it happen in the US. And ended up getting launched in London. But absolutely, she has a big London connection and I think, felt free in a certain way, in London, in a way that she didn't in the US, for lots of reasons. And I think at the time, London was just the right place for her creatively and emotionally. So I mean, I don't know Simon, as a resident, full time London resident if you want to, sort of, talk about that, from your perspective.
Simon Chinn 24:25
Yeah, I mean, I suppose it has kind of everything to do with the fact that, you know, she felt ultimately kind of somewhat rejected in the US. I mean, isn't that often the story? The US market, in terms of music, is an incredibly tough nut to crack. And I guess if you don't conform, you know, if you don't sort of fit a particular category, another film I made I produced, Searching for Sugarman, you might be aware of, Rodriguez had the same problem, right. He couldn't, he just didn't fit. You know, he was a man outside of his time, ahead of his time, actually. Tina arguably was the same. So I think the UK market tends to be more, I don't know whether the word forgiving is quite the right word, maybe just a bit more adventurous, right? A bit more accommodating of people who don't fit neatly into boxes.
Jonathan Chinn 25:21
At that time, I think that's true. I think that, yeah, I think London was the right place for her and obviously welcomed her with open arms and is a big part of her successful career both with Ike and also, as a solo artist.
Matthew 25:36
I think, as someone who grew up in the US at that time, I can tell you, yeah, it's very rigid, or was very rigid in terms of radio, where you could get played across the different genres. I've always said I didn't appreciate pop music. Cause I had a certain view, pop music was like a dirty word in my mind until I came to the UK. And then I've kind of, I now appreciate what it is actually, I think. And, I mean, you have the great secrets too, with about river deep Mountain High, which has been playing in my head all day long. And talk about going from frying pan to the fire of, you know, Ike Turner her to Phil Spector. But still, it's this amazing, I mean, amazing song. And it just flops, as Kurt Loder, he's just, I agree with Kurt Loder - makes me ashamed for being an American. And that sense, that just didn't have an audience.
Simon Chinn 26:25
I suppose, actually, there's that section where Ike is actually explaining, probably with a little bit of a sschadenfreuder, sort of slightly margin in that recording, kicked out of the recording studio by Phil Spector, turns out. Describing why he felt, and not analyzing why it didn't work. And I guess it's sort of really what I'm saying, which is that fit into a box. And Tina, you describe as a pop artist? Yes, I guess that's how we remember her. But she was a black female, you know, singing rock. And that didn't quite compete, did it for American audience?
Matthew 27:10
No, and I think it's probably, not trying to make this personal. But it's probably why I didn't appreciate her at the time. I will say, just to be honest, I think it was just kind of this doesn't compute, this isn't, you know. When actually it makes, obviously makes more than perfect sense. If you don't mind, I think, a great film, we could talk about Tina Turner all day. I highly recommend people watch this film when it comes out. But whose idea was this, to make this film? Do you just wake up one day and think, Hey, you know, let's make a Tina Turner doc. I mean, how did this come about?
Simon Chinn 27:46
Weirdly, a sort of opportunity that sort of presented itself, which is that I had actually met with the producer of the Tina musical, who's called Tali Pelman. We had a dinner throughtout our mutual friend. And she called me up, kind of out of the blue, some time after, asking whether we'd be interested in doing some short documentaries to sort of help them promote the musical, but she didn't want to feel too promotional. So sort of behind the scenes, three behind the scenes, five minute docs. And the money wasn't exciting. So I said, not something that we're really going to be that interested in, other than as an opportunity to build a relationship with Tina, as an opportunity, you know, if you're up for it, to help persuade her to do a feature documentary with us. So that was kind of the basis on which we did it. And, by the way, we really enjoyed doing it. We put one, we have a great in house director, Ed Perkins, who's now Oscar nominated, he was kicking around, so we put him on it, and he did an amazing job. And I think Tina and Erwin, her husband, were quite impressed. And we got the opportunity to meet them and started talking and, you know, entirely, as good as her word, she sort of actually went back. And they were reticent, I have to say, they weren't that excited about doing a feature doc. But she really vouched for us. So I think, and they trust us. So that was that story.
Matthew 29:25
And Tina and Erwin were on board from the beginning, were they?
Simon Chinn 29:29
In a sense, well more than a sense, they are our partners on the film. The proposition was always that we were going to do something that kind of aimed to be definitive, something I'd never been done before with Tina's full participation.
Matthew 29:44
I know you have a working relationship with Daniel Lindsay and TJ Martin, the directors, but when did you, you know, I don't think they've necessarily, not to categorize people, they didn't necessarily have done a music doc before. I don't know. But when did you line them up, and bring them on to the project?
Jonathan Chinn 30:01
It was shortly after that, I think Simon actually met with them in London and mentioned it to them. And I think our thinking was, you know, we worked with them on a film called LA '92, about the civil unrest in Los Angeles. And they had approached that material with sort of such a distinctive directorial point of view. And we had such a great experience with them working on that. I think, in a weird way, our thinking was, we knew they would bring something interesting to it. And in a way, we thought maybe they would be a more interesting choice than a director that had sort of made a lot of music doc, if you see what I mean. Because, we knew that the biggest challenge was to make a film that was going to tell a story that hadn't to be told. So it was very important to us to work with director or directors in this case, that we felt confident, above all else, we're going to do something interesting, and not just follow the kind of music doc conventions, too strictly.
Simon Chinn 31:13
I think we knew with those guys, we just knew from our experience on LA '92, that they would literally not rest until film did something a bit different, right. And they're incredible. I described them as a craftsmen, they're kind of master craftsmen. It is a bit with them, like sort of hewing a really massive and slightly daunting piece of granite. Takes a long to have this process. And in a way, you have to embrace the process with them, and let them do their thing, which is chipping away at the granite, one little piece at a time, until suddenly, finally, you can kind of see the sculpture they are trying to create.
Jonathan Chinn 32:02
Yeah, it's a great analogy. And just to get a bit nerdy on the filmmaking side. What Dan and TJ do, that is such a great analogy, Simon, what Dan and TJ do that very, very few directors d, is that they actually chisel away at the back of the statue that nobody sees. Because they need to do that as part of that process. They said that if you walked around to the back door of the process, you would see something that was really well crafted. Even though nobody's gonna see it, because they're so exhaustive in their process. Most people just chip away at the thing that people are going to see. But they actually spend time and money chipping away, chipping away at the back of the sculpture.
Simon Chinn 32:44
Just to be clear, and to make a full confession. Producer, it's not a comfortable experience. Maybe the third project we do with them. We won't give them such a fucking hard time. And not delivering cuts on time. We won't because I think we'll just have, we'll probably build a schedule that's realistic. Just cut them a bit more slack.
Jonathan Chinn 33:13
Cut them a bit more slack...
Simon Chinn 33:15
...opportunity to apologize to them. It's been a bit of a hard ass.
Matthew 33:21
Well, just in case our listeners don't know, Dan and TJ, well, you all won Emmys on LA '92. And they've won their an Oscar on Undefeated, back in, I think the film came out in 2011. So but yeah...
Jonathan Chinn 33:37
They're remarkable filmmakers, for the reasons that we've explained, that they just, they leave no stone unturned, you know, to the benefit of the film.
Matthew 33:48
So for those out there who want to work with Dan and TJ, just realize you're going to have to have budget for this, I think. And patience.
Jonathan Chinn 33:54
And time.
Matthew 33:56
Exactly. But speaking of these, I mean, as you say, crafting the story. So how did they I mean, it's, as you said, they didn't do something cliche or traditional. I mean, they divide the film into these five parts and things. Is that part of this creative process that you were watching happening?
Simon Chinn 34:17
Yeah. I think the thing that, their entry point, and I think any good director needs an entry point. Which, with any luck, sort of becomes a vision. I'm not a great believer that, you know, documentary directors sort of walk in with a vision. They walk in with a kernel that might kind of grow into a vision, if you're lucky. And then it'll kind of kernel was this at all observation when they met Tina, the first thing that she said to them was like, why do you want to do another, you know, tell another story about me? And hasn't this been done? It's like, I don't want to know, you know. This kind of ambivalence. And I think there's a sort of paradox there isn't it? A sort of paradox of someone who's been defined by her story but doesn't, isn't comfortable with it. So we worked a lot on trying to sort of find, calibrate, we'd work with them quite closely on trying to sort of calibrate that aspect of the film, so that it felt like another layer, but it nonetheless felt organic to the film.
Jonathan Chinn 35:27
Interestingly, you know, some similarities to the work that we did with them on LA '92. But their process with this was to really get stuck into the archive. And I think special mention has to go to Ben Piner, the coproducer, who also did the archive for LA '92. But they work really closely with Ben and our other producing partner, Diane Becker. And they sort of started with the archive as their entry point. I mean, the entry point in terms of filmmaking process, not necessarily their vision. But they watched hundreds of hours of Tina Turner, throughout her life. And I think that grounded them in some way. But it also raised lots of questions for them. Because, you know, one of the big challenges that they had, that we all ended up having was, what do you leave in and what do you take out of her story? We're talking about 80 years. And that was a really big challenge for them, was sort of understanding a framework that would help them decide what to leave in and what to take out. So obviously, we watched a lot of quite long versions of the film, you know, that over time became more focused. But the archive was their starting point. I think the archive is very rich and very layered, and I think brings a lot to the meaning of the film. And reveals Tina really well, you know, because the interview was short.
Simon Chinn 37:03
There's material in there that has genuinely never been seen before. You know, actually, the guys built a great relationship with a lady, wonderful Rhonda Graam, who was sort of Tina's confidant, close friend, I think tour manager at one point. And Rhonda has this amazing archive. A lot of photographs, but...
Jonathan Chinn 37:29
Some super eight footage that had never been seen before. Amazing stuff.
Simon Chinn 37:33
There's stuff in there that we, actually I don't know if you noticed, but there's kind of originally shot material. Actually not originally shot by us, of inside Tina and Ike's house.
Matthew 37:47
Yeah.
Simon Chinn 37:49
And that was a bit of a discovery. That was a filmmaker that, I think Jonathan came across, and I actually ended up meeting, who had embarked on making a short film, based on this house that he discovered, had been acquired by, you know, sold by Tina and Ike, to a guy who basically had not touched it. So it's completely intact, you know, the furnishings, everything. And he discovered this house is going to be demolished. He had 10 days to go in there and film it on austerity. And finally filmed it being demolished. So we have this unique footage in our film of that house, which you can see if you look at some of the old archive, you can actually see is exactly the same furnished house.
Jonathan Chinn 38:46
Yeah, I think when HBO first saw the footage, they asked us how we recreated it. So, exactly we said, we didn't. The dentist that bought, that's the house that dentist bought and he completely preserved it, which is, you know, it's such a gift for filmmakers to be able to inhabit a historic space like that. And again, thank you to Flavio who filmed that footage and provided it to the film. It's a great aspect of Tina's life that was luckily preserved now being demolished.
Matthew 39:21
Now that's amazing. I was gonna ask, because I did notice that myself. I was like, wait a minute, that's not just some recreation, that is... you know, because you have that super eight, I think it's all in black and white, but I think most of it, but yeah...
Jonathan Chinn 39:33
That's actually early video, that early video footage, interestingly. Yeah.
Matthew 39:37
Really? Oh, well.
Jonathan Chinn 39:38
Video footage of the black and white stuff in her house, you know, the beginnings of video, video technology.
Matthew 39:45
And then, as you mentioned, I think Simon mentioned earlier you discovered these research tapes that both Carl Arrington and Kurt Loder had, which I think is brilliant. Because I guess, as you say, you had a short, you've brought her on camera in the last couple of years. But it's a relatively short interview, but you don't make her have to relive all that, do you?
Simon Chinn 40:09
This is what I would call making a virtue out of necessity. I mean, you know, Tina was never up for, and this was part of the ground rules that were established, you'll never going to be up for sitting for a long interview, you know. Partly because, you know, she, you can see in the film, she's pretty ambivalent at some level. But also, I think let's be clear, you know, it's traumatic for her. And I didn't think we were ever that up for retraumatizing her. Didn't want to do that. So, then the question, yeah, the kind of big question was, how does Tina's voice, you know, sort of where does Tina's voice come from? So the search began at that point. I think we were aware that there were research interviews done for the "I, Tina" book, I believe Tina and Erwin told us about them. So that was an easy sort of pursuit, albeit that, you know, we need to persuade Kurt Loder. But Carl Arington, I think, tapes were more of a discovery.
Jonathan Chinn 41:17
Very much. So a discovery, I think, again, I think Ben Piner had a big part of tracking him down and then finding out that he would sit for an interview. And then I remember the whole thing, like he recorded his interview with Tina, and had them, I think at that point, we were pretty excited. And you know, Simon's alluded to this, but you get to a Tina Turner in those tapes I don't think anybody in the public has ever seen. I mean, the current load of stuff is great, because you can hear the ice in the whiskey glass. I mean, you can, you know, it's such a oral kind of audio kind of feast. And you can hear them getting comfortable with each other. But that is a Tina Turner that is, I don't think has ever been seen and the rawness and kind of honesty, that she talks about all kinds of aspects of her life. I mean, you know, not just Ike, but her relationship with her mother, which I think is also something that Dan and TJ really mind that is known about. But I think that they found a place for that story about, you know, Tina's a very complicated relationship with her mother. But yeah, that Tina Turner, I don't think people in the public will ever see again. And I think this is the only example that we've seen that so candid, and so honest.
Matthew 42:39
It's hard to believe we're starting to come to the end of our time together. Just want to ask you a few questions. We do a little segments as well, where we talk more sort of career questions for aspiring filmmakers. But I just had a question. We're coming up on Oscars are coming out, and Simon, I was gonna ask you what does it take to make an Oscar winning doc. But I think you would probably tell me that there's loads of great docs that never even get nominated for, you know, Oscars. So I mean, and I am directing this to both of you, but Simon first, what does it take to make a great doc, whether it's Oscar winning or not?
Simon Chinn 43:14
Oh, that is such a difficult question. I mean, a great doc? I mean, there are many good docs, aren't there. But what makes a great doc, is usually there's a coming together of an extraordinary and really surprising character. From my knowledge, with an extraordinary and surprising narrative. Those two things are not in themselves enough. It's the kind of, it's the sort of what's the kind of other, the sort of little X factor that kind of connects those things, to whatever's in the air at the time, makes it current, you know. I mean, I referenced Searching for Sugarman, which, you know, the late, wonderful Malik Bendjelloul, the director of that film, who sadly died a year after we won the Oscar, which is a whole other tragic story. But what was it about that film and that story that kind of connected with people? You know, I guess everyone has that theory. But I guess my sense is that we were sort of living through tough times, and we're kind of coming out of a recession. Economically, it was difficult. And then here was this story about this guy, who sort of had a shewed all the things that we regard as being typical measures of success, but sort of kept on doing this thing in an uncompromising way. And success bound him. What a great story that was for those times. You know, so I think it's just something about what's in the air. What's in the Zeitgeist. So hugely important to what makes a great film.
Matthew 45:10
That's very interesting. Jonathan, would you have anything to add to that?
Jonathan Chinn 45:14
I mean, you know, the obvious things, a great character, great story in the hands of a visionary director who can access the things that Simon is talking about. Can access sort of the pulse of the audience. Because, you know, you can make a great film that three years ago or three years in the future will win an Oscar, but it doesn't do it that year. In fact, nobody really pays attention to it. So it's not an absolute, it's not a science, I can tell you that there is no formula to making an award winning film. There may not even be a formula to making a great film. I think there's a formula to making good film. Absolutely. But that thing that Simon's talking about, which is that, that sort of, you know, Lamborghini, seventh year, is sometimes actually is sometimes out of your control, it's sort of happens after the fact. But there are a set of things that have to be in place, which is ideally, the thing, you know, good character, good story, visionary, director. And probably some blood that has, blood and sweat that probably had had to have been shared. I do feel that the great films are almost always the really hard ones to make. So if it's easy, that's not a good sign.
Simon Chinn 46:34
I think I want to shout out to the film that is literally head and shoulders above, the documentary that's head and shoulders above every other documentary in the field this year, is a film called Collective. Which I have been, you know, studiously trying to sort of support. I said to Jonathan, in a way that I rarely do my own films, because it's just unseemly, isn't it?
Jonathan Chinn 46:58
We're gonna get a lot of angry emails from the other directors, but it's okay.
Simon Chinn 47:04
Send them. Anyway, this film is exceptional. I mean, whether it will win the Oscar? It should win, but it probably won't. Because it's Romanian. Because, you know, frankly, it doesn't have quite the marketing budget that the Netflix film and the Amazon film have. Let's be clear that the winning of Oscars is not just about quality, is it?
Jonathan Chinn 47:30
Yeah, yeah. Yeah,
Matthew 47:31
I think that's, let's give a shout out to Collective because I have heard, I actually have some experience with Eastern Europe. So I've heard about this, and it's got an incredible what I've been hearing. It sounds incredible. I haven't seen it yet. But I'm not even sure how you go about seeing it. But...
Simon Chinn 47:50
That's a problem right there.
Jonathan Chinn 47:51
That's the problem. And just to add, it's also been nominated for Best Foreign Language Film, which is pretty historic. So, you know, clearly, people who care about these things are recognizing it. But as Simon says, there is a machine that happens when it comes to award season that can bulldoze a lot in its path. And we've been on both sides of that bulldozer, so. We will see, we will see. But, you know, you've just got to make, you've got to follow your heart. I mean, I know that sounds cliche, but...
Simon Chinn 47:55
It can never be about the winning of awards, can it? It's about the work and finding the film's rightful audience as well as a producer I asked him to. But yeah, I mean, the awards process is a crapshoot. It's the biggest crapshoot there is actually. So you can't get to sort of sucked into it.
Matthew 48:55
I was gonna ask you about advice for young document makers, but I think you've already just given it. I mean, I think you've just got to be, could say this about a lot of careers, you just have to have passion about what you're doing, and just try to do it to the best of your ability, and what falls out from that.
Jonathan Chinn 49:11
You have to look critically at whether the story that you want to tell has legs. And, you know, so yeah, there's that aspect too, you know. That in terms of what we see with younger directors is, yeah, just having a bit of ability to look critically at what you're doing is important, along with a passion and belief that everything you're doing is worthwhile. I guess what Simon is pointing to is that Yeah, sometimes some great work, you know, sort of gets a little buried and you know, we all have a responsibility to try and, you know, dig some of it up and say guys pay attention to this. Because you know, that great, great art is hard to make and when it does get made, it should be recognized. One way or the other.
Matthew 50:01
Speaking of great art, what's next for the both of you with Lightbox films? What can we look forward to coming from you two?
Jonathan Chinn 50:09
The one film that that we're in the middle of making that has been announced, is the very first theatrical film about the life and also death of Princess Diana. That's being directed by Ed Perkins, who we mentioned before.
Simon Chinn 50:26
Mel Trodden story, but just to be clear about it, we're actually following the same approach with that film that we did with LA' 92. Telling it exclusively, using archive material, ie no underlying interviews. So it's kind of experience of watching, it will feel like the story is sort of unfolding in the present. Albeit the filmmaking hopefully will nudge the audience to some areas where there is real present day resonance, of which let's be honest, there's a huge abundance in here.
Jonathan Chinn 51:04
We also are fortunate enough to produce some really exciting, limited theories, in the music space, also the true crime space, starting to do a bit more in the sports arena. And again, just looking for great characters, great stories and filmmakers, you know, with a really distinctive point of view. Those are always a little non negotiable for us. And then the rest, you know, we hope for the best.
Matthew 51:36
Hey, well, as a fan of your work. Thank you so much. Thanks for coming on to the podcast. Thanks for making these films, once you've made previously and the ones you're about to make. So I just want to, just thank you both Jonathan and Simon, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast.
Jonathan Chinn 51:54
Thanks for having us.
Matthew 51:56
So just want to say thank you again to Jonathan and Simon Chinn, the producers of Tina, releasing in the States on HBO and streaming on HBO max on March 27. Drops March 28, in the UK on Sky documentaries and Now TV, also available on out to dot film, and it's got a theatrical release worldwide. And if you have any questions regarding how you can become a documentary producer like Simon and Jonathan Chinn or other roles in the industry, I recommend you check out careersandfilm,com to learn more about careers in the film industry. want to give a shout out to our engineer Freddie Besbrode. And the rest of the team at This Is Distorted Studios here in Leeds, England. And a big thanks as always to Nevena Paunovic podcast manager who ensures we continue getting such great guests like Simon and Jonathan onto the show. And finally, a big thanks to our listeners. As always, we'd love to hear from you. So please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. And please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen, or watch podcasts. This is Factual America. Signing off.
Factual America Outro 53:10
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