The Invisible Pilot: Stranger than Fiction

Factual America

6 May

Written By

The Invisible Pilot is an HBO Max Docuseries that captures the incredible story of Gary Betzner, an Arkansas crop duster who died under mysterious circumstances. Or did he?

The mystery around this man's death would be more than enough for a compelling doc. But that is only the beginning of a story that proves that truth is most definitely stranger than fiction. Given the unlikeliest of events set against the backdrop of 1970s and 80s America and Reagan's war on drugs, the docuseries is Forrest Gump meets American Made meets All the President's Men.

Emmy-winning filmmakers Phil Lott and Ari Mark, co-directors and executive producers of The Invisible Pilot, share how they discovered this amazing story and how their investigative journalism led to the creation of a compelling 3-part documentary.

"Just because it’s a documentary and not a feature, it doesn’t mean it’s solely educational or intellectual - it can also entertain." - Phil Lott

Time Stamps:

00:00 - The trailer for The Invisible Pilot.
03:05 - The synopsis of the docuseries.
06:18 - How Phil and Ari came across this story.
08:40 - What makes documentaries sometimes more exciting than feature films.
12:10 - What the US government was up to in 1980s.
18:20 - What Gary Betzner’s relationship with the government was while serving his sentence.
21:30 - The investigative journalism Ari and Phil had to undertake to create this docuseries.
24:50 - What Gary and his family’s reactions were to the documentary.
27:40 - How Phil and Ari approached and shaped The Invisible Pilot.
34:30 - What it was like to work with Gary Betzner.
37:30 - Upcoming projects for Phil and Ari.

Resources:

The Invisible Pilot (2022)
Ample Entertainment
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures

Transcript for Factual America Episode 97: The Invisible Pilot: Stranger than Fiction

Ari Mark 00:00
I'm Ari Mark, the owner of AMPLE, and director and executive producer of The Invisible Pilot on HBO.

Phil Lott 00:08
And I'm Phil Lott, co-director and co-exec. producer of The Invisible Pilot.

Speaker 1 00:13
Gary was a crop duster.

Speaker 2 00:15
And the best pilot the TOPGUN program had ever known.

Speaker 3 00:17
I didn't think they talked about our double life.

Speaker 4 00:21
Gary became an international drug smuggler, and he made millions of dollars.

Speaker 5 00:25
It gets complicated.

Speaker 6 00:26
His wife ought to have an Academy Award.

Speaker 7 00:29
Gary Betzner was tripping into one of the biggest political scandals of his lifetime.

Matthew 00:42
This is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo Pictures, an Austin and London based production company, making documentaries about America for international audiences. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. This week, it is my pleasure to welcome award winning filmmakers Phil Lott and Ari Mark, co-directors and executive producers of The Invisible Pilot. The HBO docu-series captures the incredible story of Gary Betzner, an Arkansas crop duster who died under mysterious circumstances. Or did he? The mystery around this man's death would be more than enough for a compelling doc. But that is only the beginning of a story that proves that truth is most definitely stranger than fiction. Given the unlikeliest of events set against the backdrop of 1970s and 80s America and Reagan's war on drugs, the docu-series is Forrest Gump meets American Made meets All the President's Men. Stay tuned as we discuss this incredible American story with Phil and Ari. If you're worried about spoilers, and there will be more than a few, please watch the series as this tale has more twists and turns than the river where Gary's body was never found. Phil and Ari, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?

Ari Mark 02:00
Oh, great. Great, great great. Really good to be here. Thank you so much for having us.

Phil Lott 02:04
Yes, thanks for having us.

Matthew 02:06
Well, thank you. The film, for our listeners, is The Invisible Pilot. Released on HBO April this year. It's on HBO Max. Is there an international release associated with this as well?

Phil Lott 02:23
Yeah, I believe it's going all around the world. But I believe in the UK, I think it's on Sky Atlantic. I think it's coming out shortly.

Matthew 02:32
Yeah, there's this tie-in with Sky and HBO, so; well, do have a look for it. I mean, it isn't - I don't even know where to begin with this one. This is an incredible story, so, thank you so much. And I've been humming Crystal Gayle in my head for the last few days, since watching this, so, tell you where I'm coming from with this one. But, maybe, Phil, maybe you can get us started? What is - if it's possible to give a synopsis - what is The Invisible Pilot all about?

Phil Lott 03:05
So, The Invisible Pilot is about this small town, everyman guy, family guy, well liked. One day in 1977, he takes his kids to ice cream, and he pulls his car over at the side of the road. And it's in the middle of a bridge, and he gets out of the car, and he jumps off it and disappears. And over the course of three episodes, we follow and unwrap this amazing story of what happened that day. And how he ended up going toe-to-toe with the American president.

Matthew 03:40
Indeed. So, I've already done this in the intro, but I will do a spoiler alert here because - but I mean, it just says so much about the film that what you've just described is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to this story, so - but if you haven't had a chance to watch it, please do. I highly, highly recommend it. And then, you know, before you do that, maybe give us a like, but then go watch it and then come back and listen to how Ari and Phil made this film. But so, Ari, essentially it's the life of an already dead man, is that one way to pitch it?

Ari Mark 04:23
Yeah, that's a cool way to pitch it. We should remember that for next time! I mean, and just so you know, it's a three-part series, just so our audiences know, and, you know, the third episode just premiered. So, all three now are on HBO, Max, the streaming platform for HBO. But, you know, I think that's a really great way to pitch it by means of sort of pulling people in and sort of forcing them to kind of, you know, watch one episode, and I think the challenge is watch one episode, and we feel as though we've sort of narratively constructed it that it will sort of push you to want to watch episodes two and three. But episode one, you know, if you think of them in chapters, is very much about, you know, about a quote, unquote dead man what it means to die, and, you know, how this particular character, I think, is, like, kind of weirdly complex, is able to really just sort of ascend to unexpected heights. Just partially out of fearlessness, partially out of just, like, sort of sheer, you know, gall, you know, and I think there's a tweak of sort of, like, you know, Americanism in there of this pursuing your dream and doing whatever the hell you want to do, whenever you want to do it, you're going away.

Matthew 05:46
I mean, as you say, I mean, there's so many historical and cultural touchpoints here. I mean, there's 60s and 70s hippie culture and free love, and Go Go 80s and cocaine, and the war on drugs and Iran-Contra scandal, which many of us had forgotten about, somehow. And this all revolves around a crop duster from Arkansas. I mean, Phil, how did you come across this incredible story?

Phil Lott 06:17
Yeah, I think that's a good question. Probably the most incredible thing for us was the story's been around, well, for about 12 years now. I was at a film festival in Sonoma. And just, you know, I'm English, and I like to talk to people. It's mostly wine up there, so it was just a couple of glasses of that. And I met this screenwriter, who had been given a job of fictionalizing, this story for a local filmmaker called Craig Hodges. And he was working through this story and I was asking about what his script was about, and he was telling me this story, and I kept saying, but you made that bit up, right? You made that bit up, right? And he was like, No, no, this is all true. This is all true stuff. And I think I finished that conversation, I was like, I need this guy's number, because I don't think you should make a fiction script, I think you should make a documentary. This is a stranger-than-fiction story, and this guy deserves a story. It's taken us a long time to kind of get in with the family, and get in with Gary, and convince them that we were the right people to tell the story.

Matthew 07:28
Okay. But you, I mean, you must have thought immediately, as you said, you had a goldmine on your hands with this story. But now, you mentioned this, the filmmaker that was a local guy who was already on the case, was he actually - he was trying to make a scripted film, is that right? He wasn't trying to do a doc. Is that the situation when you came in?

Ari Mark 07:50
Yeah, I mean, he - look, to his credit, I think he knew the story was exceptional. But, you know, he doesn't actually work in TV or film, and so, he doesn't have some of the storytelling experience. And I think for him, it was really, you know, realizing he had something special, but not necessarily knowing what form it needed to take, and, and by the way, it probably would make a great, you know, scripted show. And I think, you know, and I think that there's certainly merit there, but, you know, because audiences are so, you know, I think quite savvy now, and also tired of being lied to, you know, I think there's an element with non-fiction, where you can really surprise people in a way that you can't really do in fiction, anymore. And so, you know, you look at scripts and stuff that's like, dystopian, horror, like, what do you want? It's out there, you've got it. With non-fiction, it's like, you never really run out of sort of intellectual property, because it's real, you know, it's real stories, real people. If you find the right ones, and you tell them the right way, you know, sometimes you can reveal something, I think a little bit deeper than meets the eye. And so, with this guy, Craig Hodges, for him, it was really a story of a close family friend, right, and that was how he pursued it. And for us, it was, well, that's great, but this is much bigger than that, you know, I mean, that might be a micro-element. But if you take a step back from this thing, you know, and you give it a little perspective, and a little bit of sort of fresh air, what really is it? You know, and it's much bigger than some hippie, you know, guy; you know, it's much bigger than that, I think, and we don't want to cram it down people's throat or hit them over the head with these ideas, or these sort of cultural touchpoints, to use your word, but if they unravel organically, and you got this piece floating through these historical moments, it feels really Kismet and I think that's what makes - partially makes - the story very special. And we were able to help Craig get to that point.

Matthew 09:52
And so, you were introduced to this story, but you were just kind of slowly unpeeling the onion, and then - so, as you're drilling down, then you're actually then having to take that step back realizing that you have a much bigger story that anyone else had any idea they had on their hands.

Ari Mark 10:15
Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, stranger-than-fiction stuff is sort of what we - it's kind of our currency. It's what gets us excited as filmmakers. And so, you know, everything that we make has, I think, a little bit of that element. But in this case, yeah. And we liked - our process is we like to really sort of talk to everyone, learn everything we can, and then really put pen to paper, and really think through, like, how do we want the audience to experience it, right? And how do we want to create it in a way that's entertaining. I think sometimes people forget that just because it's non-fiction just because it's documentary, you know, it doesn't mean it's solely educational or intellectual. I mean, it should also entertain, and it should also, you know, do its job of changing your perspective, right? Or challenging your perspective. And so, you know, how you frame it and how you write it, even though they're real events, is sort of the key.

Matthew 11:12
I'm sure I don't do the film justice. But everyone I try to give my own version of a synopsis to just becomes slack jawed. And I'm like, that's just the first 30 minutes, right. Just, like, wow, how do I - you know, we're here in the UK, so they're like, how can I watch this? So, you know, and even my 17 year old daughter was extremely impressed. But this story, I mean, this story gets even crazier now. I think for a lot of us, and I'm from the US originally and born and raised there, and I've actually been to Des Arc, Arkansas. But I think I may have even been on that bridge, across that bridge when I was a little kid on a cross country trip, but I'm not certain. But, you know, as crazy as this story sounds, and you know, I mean, it gets - maybe you could briefly explain to people what the US government was up to in the 1980s. I think we kind of all - many of us have kind of boxed and shelved that and forgotten how crazy a story that was in and of itself.

Phil Lott 12:18
Yeah, I mean, so, in episode two, Gary comes across this guy, who turns out to be Oliver North, and his compatriots. And what they're doing is they're using this network of pilots who are bringing in drugs, cocaine from South America into America. And they're using those empty planes going back down south to kind of be their own personal FedEx, you know, taking a bunch of weapons down to Nicaragua, where Reagan was fighting a war against what he perceived as a threat from the Soviets having a beachhead down in Nicaragua. And, you know, this is a generation of people that had lived off the Red Scare. And they fundamentally were opposed to communism, and they were funding this group of soldiers who were standing up against this force down there. But interestingly, what had happened, Congress and the government had specifically passed legislation to tell Reagan he couldn't do this, that they knew that he was interested in this war down there, and America wasn't interested in getting involved in a war down there. So, they specifically passed legislation to prevent Reagan from funding or financing or sending weapons down there. So, he needed to do it covertly because this is a sort of a fundamental belief of his, and so he tasked Oliver North with figuring out how to get weapons down there. And so, he basically created this network of arms dumps in America, shipping them down, down to the airports in the middle of the jungle and on the hillsides down there. And that's how Gary, our central character, ends up being one of these pilots and one of the best pilots doing a few routes down there, doing a few trips down there, and offloading weapons. And, you know, there's a piece of it that you know that Gary knows it's weapons because he always checks his loads. But I think, you know, the interesting thing in terms of how they sort of collide with our story is that Gary and Reagan were both motivated by what they believed were doing things that were right, and it ends up being, you know, one of them ends up being kind of a celebrated president, and the other one goes to jail for 22 years.

Matthew 15:10
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I guess that's the whole - I mean, you actually have come across, I mean, I don't know how many people have looked, but you've come across one of the pilots. We heard about these guys. I mean, I'm old enough to remember when this broke originally, and, you know, we were hearing about this - I mean, it was - no reason to touch on this, but it was - what a crazy story. I mean, they, you know, they were dealing with the Iranians. You had someone like Robert McFarlane, who brought a birthday cake and a Bible to the Iranians, and then this idea you're going to take money from them, fund the Contras, but then the added element of then, well, while you're at it, might as well ship cocaine back.

Ari Mark 15:46
And while that's happening, we have the war on drugs happening domestically, which is just like the biggest irony ever.

Matthew 15:54
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then this guy, who, well, as I said, there's spoiler alerts. But, you know, we know he's dead or at some point he's dead. But this guy is involved. He's a - I think he even points out, at TOPGUN school, he was considered one of the best pilots they ever had. I mean, he had this incredible character, is hobnobbing with Pablo Escobar, and people like that. It's, you know, yeah, I mean, it's just, when does it stop? But maybe, maybe we will stop just quickly to give people a chance to catch their breaths and then we'll be right back with Phil and Ari, the co-directors of The Invisible Pilot. It's on HBO, streaming on HBO Max.

Factual America midroll 16:49
If you enjoy Factual America, check out the MovieMaker podcast. That's all one word: MovieMaker. Where our friends at moviemaker.com interview everyone from filmmakers just breaking in to A-Listers like David Fincher and Edgar Wright, about their movie making secrets and behind-the-scenes tricks of the trade. They go deep, and let the guests speak uninterrupted, to get you the most film insight. Now back to Factual America.

Matthew 17:18
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with award winning filmmakers Phil Lott and Ari Mark, co- directors and executive producers of The Invisible Pilot released on HBO in early April, earlier this year, you can find it on HBO Max. Google it for international releases; here in the UK, we think it's gonna be on Sky Atlantic, I'm almost certain of that. So, we were talking about this crazy story about this guy named Gary Betzner, or all of his many other aliases that he had, and as we discover that and you even kind of give us clues on how people can do what he did. He served his complete time didn't - almost complete time. Why was that? I mean, he had all this dirt on the government. He testifies before Congress. You can find the complete testimony. I found it. C-Span still has it up on their website. He's working with Senator Kerry's committee that was investigating this, how did he end up serving all that time and not breaking, orchestrating, a deal with the government?

Phil Lott 18:29
Yeah, and that's one of the things that obviously, in episode three, we dig into, that he feels sort of hard done by because he, you know, he felt like he had this free pass. And I think for a lot of time down there, there was this sort of idea of a free pass. And in fact, we heard a story that we don't put in the show, that there was a prosecutor down in Miami, and he was telling stories of, he'd be given a number to call. And that number was a White House number to kind of call and sort of get these guys off. And that all checked out, by the way, in our fact checking, just didn't have time to put it in the show, but, you know, and then also top of episode three, we see this sort of crazy escape attempt. And I think that escape attempt is what actually sealed Gary's fate, ultimately. And I think once that happened, you know, I think a few bets were off in terms of his getting off or getting some lighter sentence. But also, let's not forget, by this point, the infrastructure that was keeping, was running that operation, was dismantled. It had been exposed publicly. Oliver North had now given his famous testimony and become a celebrity as a result. But that structure had fallen apart. So, it was almost like there was no one left to make the call.

Matthew 20:04
And, you know, you're saying, you're checking these things out, did you guys - I mean, I was gonna ask you why, you know, it has taken a while to get this film to the screen; I mean, were you guys, you almost had to be investigative reporters, of sorts, didn't you? I mean, is that part of the reason it's taken so long and collaborating stories and these things.

Ari Mark 20:28
Yeah, I mean, I think - look, there, you know, twofold answer. One, if you're working with HBO, you better get your facts right, right. You know, you're gonna tell something at a high level and premium level then you want to, you know, you gotta really do your due diligence. And, you know, there's really repercussions to getting these facts wrong. People's lives, et cetera, who are telling their stories and who are on screen. I think the other piece of it is you, again, like, you kind of go into these things, assuming one thing from a set of characters, right, like the family, and yeah, you do become an investigative reporter where you want to, you can't really gain credibility with the audience, if you can't, you know, really, really confidently tell a story and feel like you've got sort of additional point of view, right. So, that's reporters and the journalists, the podcaster, and, you know, his lawyer, and, you know, yes, those are people who give great commentary and they give you some great context. And they're experts in their own right. But it also becomes about sort of gaining the trust of the audience and being, like, look, this guy was a nobody, but he was here. And we're gonna make sure you believe that because it's one thing to hear someone say it in a chair, see it in an archive, see it highlighted on a document, hear a phone call. I mean, that prison escape, you know, if we didn't have that footage, which is one of my favorite pieces of work I've ever seen, where he literally just starts running - you know, you can never make that shit up, you know. And it really plays in well to who he is, right? He's not - you can't confine this guy, you know, and so, a long way of saying, you know, yes, we had to become investigative journalists. And we were very pleasantly surprised by what we found because sometimes you pursue these projects, and the other thing happens. The deeper you dig, the more disappointed you are. So, it really lived up to its expectation that way.

Matthew 22:36
I mean, what I found personally powerful is this, you have these number of interviews over the years, especially with the family, and you splice those together, where they're basically, it seems to me that nothing, their story has held together exactly the same over 10 years of filming, they are, they've never changed their story. And so, you know, the way you've presented that was very, I thought, quite powerful.

Ari Mark 23:01
That's a really good point. Thanks for saying that. That was a really great sort of device that both, I think worked creatively and also worked practically, to your point of just, you know, really cementing in the minds of the audience that okay, you know, there's a shared story here, and it's consistent. And also, it really gets into this notion of memory and collective memory of family of, like, okay, you know, there's a story you get passed down, and there's a story that really happens, and, you know, and there's always sort of nuances within that. We sort of wanted to explore that. Frankly, we would have been explored it more, we just ran out of real estate, you know?

Matthew 23:41
I mean, not that we're gonna be making a document about everyone's family, but all families have these myths, especially southern families, I can tell you, and, you know, I don't know if your intention, but you also see how these characters are aging over the last 10, 12 years. And it's poignant in its own way, isn't it? Certainly someone like Travis, who's Gary's son, and you see how that's evolved over - oh, you see him from really young because of Craig's being a friend of his from, like, middle school or whatever.

Ari Mark 24:18
Exactly, exactly. Yeah, quite intentional, quite intentional. Really wanting those characters to arc, you know, emotionally and physically. But, yeah, I mean, Travis, he's a really intelligent guy, and he's got a big heart. And he was, you know, that was definitely a piece that we grappled with. And, you know, I've had conversations with him after the airing of this and just, you know, how he was presented and how he feels and, you know, and it's challenging, it's really tough, I think, for him to see himself up there in that way.

Matthew 24:47
I mean, I was gonna ask, it's one question I was going to ask you, so, I mean, what was it like working with the family, and then now what do they think of the project now that they've - I mean, because these aren't people who ever were thinking I'm gonna be on the big screen, really, you know, so.

Phil Lott 25:03
No, it's interesting with Gary, you know, he saw the show and, you know, obviously, you know, he's a big boy. And he's been through a lot of stuff, so, and I, you know, I think he's also able to compartmentalize quite well, as you can see in the show. So, we weren't expecting to have a sort of super emotional response. But I think his response was, it was accurate. And he said it, so that's how it was, which I - we think we both felt was a milestone to have passed, and then the rest of the family, look, it's tough, it's tough to see yourself up there. And, you know, you make a very good point about seeing the family age, you know, but it's also seeing the cost of the story, you know, that one of the things we wanted to do with this story was, you know, subvert some of the expectations a little bit. And, yes, we want to have a rollicking ride and take you on a journey, and have a real good sort of cinematic experience that would be fun to watch and go along with. But we also want to drop these little nuggets of the real cost. And, you know, the core of this story is, you know, the cost of these things. And, you know, whether it's Reagan, Reagan administration, doing what he was doing, or whether it's Gary doing what he was doing, there is a cost to the people around them. And so, I think just to see that impact on their faces without having to ask the question or hammer the audience over the head, I think was pretty poignant.

Matthew 26:37
Yeah, I agree. And I think I hadn't even thought of it in such universal terms, but certainly, at least two characters, they're thinking, as you actually kind of already pointed out, doing what they thought was right, doing what they thought was best for those they loved, if you want to put it that way. But with all the collateral damage that comes with it. And that's, I think, like you said, it could be - I mean, maybe that's for the scripted film, if you want to have the rogue sort of fellow who goes around, but the reality is there are prices to pay for such a life, however incredible it may be. I mean, you've already mentioned about how you, you know - it is three episodes, and you can get too caught up in three acts and chapters and stuff. But you know, it was interesting how you have shaped it. They're almost three stand alones. They're almost - and as you said, the third one's just premiered in the US, so, how did that - I mean, did you approach this as a true crime story, and then that kind of just, as you said, over the years, it's shaped, it's taken on this different shape?

Ari Mark 28:02
Yeah, I mean, it's definitely - you know, we work a lot in true crime, and so, I think we, and we also bore easily and, you know, we've seen [inaudible] and, you know, the last thing we want to do is make something that nobody wants to watch. So, you know, I think we - I think when we evaluate a project like this, you say, Okay, you know, what are sort of the moments of transformation, right? What are the tent poles? And how many are there? And, you know, how many revelations are we really going to be able to offer, you know, in a story like this, and so, you look at it as a whole and you go, Well, you know, could it be a great feature documentary, sure, you know, but, when you have that sort of, you know, breadth of twists, turns, and sort of, you know, unexpected moments, you want to use those, you know, as best you can, and it allows you to sort of make the world bigger, right? So, you're letting your audience time to adjust the world of small town, Arkansas, or the true crime element, or, you know, Miami drug scene; you're letting them into also, you know, this bigger political arena. And so, it's, yeah, it's an onion, but it's also sort of like a, you know, hopefully it's going like that, you know, and, you know, the aperture is getting bigger and bigger. And hopefully, that's earned, right, and so, that's why I think it always felt to us like a series. To HBO's credit, I think there was a lot of conversation around, you know, making sure that it deserved the amount of episodes it was getting. And so, there's a lot of work to ensure that that's, you know, that's really there because, as I'm sure you've seen on TV, there's plenty of series that, frankly, would have been better as a, you know, as a one off.

Matthew 29:55
Or fewer episodes or, you know, however - won't name names - but yes, you know. But yes, I think we've all been there. And I think probably people are starting to be a little more - I think audiences are probably being more critical of that as well, because it's valuable time that they're dedicating to watching these films. But in terms of, I mean, I think that's very interesting. So, that collaborative process with HBO, I mean, how long - was that something - has HBO been on the case for several years, is that...?

Ari Mark 30:31
No, so, you know, the collaborative process is really - so, the collaboration started first with us and Craig Hodges, this filmmaker, right, and we started talking and, for some reason, that Phil 10 years to mention it to me, but once we started digging in together, we realized, Oh, shit, you know, there's really, you know, we should really be pushing this along. He's always been obsessed with Iran-Contra, and my thing with Iran-Contra was always, like, who cares? You know, and I think, you know, I always felt very strongly that Iran-Contra, especially for our generation, or the younger generations, like, it's a big, Who Cares. And it also is extremely, extremely clumsy as a political turning point. I'm, like, wait, what, like, who? Why are we talking about Nicaragua, you know; and so, it's a lot of explaining, and so from the TV stand point, or a film standpoint, that's a hard thing for audiences to digest. I think what worked really well, in episode three especially, was being able to understand, thanks to some of these experts, you know, really breaking it down for us and simplifying it, is, that's kind of part of the point, like the point - the fact that the American public sort of forgot about it, the fact that we're now sort of bringing this up, and the fact that we can draw organic parallels to today without having to say it, or at least getting this conversation about power and getting to the conversation of, specifically, executive power, you know, that's a really unbelievable thing to be able to do. So, yeah, you know, it's an opportunity to break down, you know, what Iran-Contra really was, and, but also frame it - you know, when you have this - I don't know if I'm being clear - but when you have this sort of anonymous character for a lack of a better way of putting it. He's involved in this thing; okay, well, maybe it's worth another look, you know what I mean? This is accessible, we've made this thing that's so inaccessible, accessible, and that's where the two of us went, Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, that works. And so, that was a big piece of the perspective and point of view and context that we brought. And we said, look, and, you know, we worked with Craig, and we looked through all this years and years of footage and tried to pull out the bits that worked and reshoot the bits that we needed to and all that kind of stuff. But in the collaboration with not just HBO but Adam McKay and Todd Schulman - the other production company that we partnered with - they had a really fresh look also, in saying, Okay, well, we haven't even thought about Iran-Contra in God knows how long, so you get these very kind of 2022 kind of, like, perspectives on something that was pretty, you know, dusty, you know, when we first started, and I think that's why it has the freshness because of that collaboration, pushing us to make it as accessible as we could.

Matthew 31:29
Well, yeah. So, you've answered the question. I was gonna ask this. How do you make a film about Iran-Contra interesting, when, as you pointed out, pointedly point, out here and in the film, no one really cared at the time and certainly doesn't care now.

Ari Mark 33:46
Sweeping under the rug, and the, you know, I mean, I think that, and the way you do it is making characters. Right, I mean, don't make it about the history of Iran-Contra, you make it about somebody who kind of, you know, collides with it, and make it feel present, make it feel like, you know, there's a reason to tell that story now, just by way of interviewing people in 2022 about it.

Matthew 34:10
And I think it was interesting, as you say, in that episode three is, you know, even the journalist who interviewed Gary was, you know, he's not your most - you need to - I mean, I was gonna ask you what it's like working with Gary, because I mean, I think you probably need to ask him same question several times, just to make sure that this is all checks out, because as he said, There's this guy who does cocaine enemas, maybe I'm - you know, maybe he's not the most - I'm not passing judgment necessarily, but you know, not that that's the, you know - who is - you know, is this a reputable witness to all this, you know?

Ari Mark 34:11
Yeah. No, I'm really glad we lead them to that and upon rewatching the episode it really works, really well just, you know, feeling like you understand. Yes, he was one of other pilots. And yes, and, you know, even if incredibly talented, but he was an anomaly, you know, and the fact that he was still able to testify at that level of credibility, you know, means, you know, he was such a linchpin, you know, connecting all the dots for everyone.

Matthew 35:27
But then it's at the same time that - I just thought of this - that the whole hearing he has, you know, it's practically an empty room he's in when he's testifying there before that committee, you know, I mean, I guess it was closed doors, but still up to a point. But yeah, you know, it's - well, it's quite, quite a story. Yeah, there's been maybe some spoiler alerts, but, you know, I can tell you, we're only touching the surface when, given what we've discussed over the last 30 minutes. So, it's quite an incredible story, touches on a lot of different issues. I mean, the other side of Gary, I, one last thing I'll ask about Gary, is he's kind of this philosopher smuggler? You know, interesting, kind of interesting insights on life, I guess.

Phil Lott 36:25
Yeah, he's definitely - well, you can say he's had some mind expanding experiences over his life...

Matthew 36:34
Yes, exactly!

Phil Lott 36:33
I think there's something also about being a pilot. You had to be sort of close to life and death. And I think, you have to be sort of close to fatality. And I think that allows him to kind of have this philosophy. I think it allows him to have this - develop this philosophy of just really looking and also, you had that whole experience with the Maharishi in the 80s, which, I think, you know, Gary is a spiritual guy, you know, he's got a spirituality to him that is sort of beguiling in its own way. How he spins his truth.

Matthew 36:35
Yeah, no, it's, well, I think we're coming to the end of our time together. So, I just wanted to ask you guys, what's next? Am I reading this right, what I've seen that you are making a scripted film of this story? Is that something you can consider?

Ari Mark 37:36
I mean, look, you know, the thing with scripted projects is they take, you know, an extraordinarily long time. It's part of the reason we love non-fiction is we don't really need that. We can pick up a camera and just go, you know, and start making it and doing it and shooting it and cutting it and, you know, but, I don't know, you know, honestly, I'm not just saying that to be coy. I feel as though, you know, on the one hand, we're always sort of trained in this business to sort of think about, you know, expanding and adapting sort of existing intellectual property or, you know, how can you sort of take this product and commodify it even further, and the truth of the matter is, like we said, from the beginning, if it's real, what are we going to do? And it's hard to believe as a real story, what the hell are we going to do in the scripted version to surprise you? Gonna have aliens? You know what I mean? So, it's like...

Matthew 38:31
Well, he's gonna have to show up in the White House, I think, he and - something's gonna happen. Yeah.

Ari Mark 38:37
If you have any ideas, let us know.

Matthew 38:38
Oh, yeah. Well, we'll put that out to the audience as a good way of engaging the audience. What can you say is next for you guys? Do you have any projects you're working on and you can tell us about?

Ari Mark 38:51
Yeah, well, look, we're the types of people, for better for worse, who, you know, really are always, you know, scrambling for new ideas, not so much for the business reasons, as much as, like, it just kind of sustains us and keeps us going. And the thing with production, production takes time. So, even once you get something launched, and you're shooting something, it's nice to be able to still continue to sort of exercise that development muscle of the next thing. So, yeah, we've got several projects that some we're self-financing and just making because we're so confident in the stories, you know, and we do so much of the shooting, and the filming and directing and the cutting ourselves. We're able to sort of, you know, really just kind of make something and really get it further along, as opposed to sort of trying to convince someone of the idea, or the traditional route, get it financed, and then go about that way. So, we have a couple of those that I guess I probably shouldn't mention, but, you know, it ranges. I mean, we're not very genre specific. I think we really do love the stranger than fiction stuff. We like the quirky thing, and we like the character driven stuff. So, you know, we've got one that is more involved in sort of, I'd say religion, you know, that's a little more sort of, you know, God driven and really questions sort of some of the sort of underlying tenets of faith and how far people are willing to go for it. We're really interested in the sort of, like, sort of historical treasure mystery space where a lot of, you know, there's a lot of, kind of, interesting sort of rift between the kind of looting world and the archaeology worlds, you know, there's something about those two that, you know, we think is really interesting. We're working on something in that space. And then we have, you know, a big ten part, big crime series that gets into the psychology of crime that I can't really share too much on, but it is in production. And it's pretty cool.

Matthew 40:49
Well, that's great to hear. I mean, we'll definitely be on the lookout for them. And, if we haven't scared you off, hopefully, we can have you back on to discuss those projects, because those, I'm sure, if they're anywhere close to what you've done with The Invisible Pilot will be well worth having a little chat about. So, thank you so much for coming on to Factual America. Just remind our audience we've been talking with Phil Lott and Ari Mark, co-directors and executive producers of The Invisible Pilot released earlier in April on HBO. It's streaming on HBO Max. Just be on the lookout for it if you don't have access to either one of those for some reason, and for the wider international release. So, thanks, guys. It's been great having you on. Love the film and, yes, wish you all the best and good luck.

Ari Mark 41:44
Thank you.

Phil Lott 41:45
Thank you so much.

Ari Mark 41:46
Thanks, appreciate that. Yeah, take care.

Matthew 41:49
I'd like to give a shout out to Sam and Joe Graves at Innersound Audio in Escrick, England, in deepest, darkest Yorkshire. A big thanks to Nevena Paunovic, podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show. And finally, a big thanks to our listeners. As always, we love to hear from you. So, please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas. You can reach out to us on YouTube, social media, or directly by going to our website, www.factualamerica.com, and clicking on the Get in Touch link. And as always, please remember to like us, and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.

Factual America Outro 42:30
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures, specializing in documentaries, television, and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests, and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @alamopictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films, and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk

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