Hold Your Fire: A Call for Restorative Justice in the US

Factual America

12 May

Written By

Documentary film ‘Hold Your Fire’ provides us with a riveting account of a hostage situation in Brooklyn in January 1973, when four young African American men were caught stealing guns in a sporting goods store and took a dozen hostages.

The police assumed that they were members of the Black Liberation Army and came down with all the force of the NYPD. The situation snowballed into an event full of miscommunications, misunderstandings and mistaken identity, and it soon became tragically violent.

Emmy-nominated filmmaker Stephen Forbes, cinematographer and director of ‘Hold Your Fire,’ shares how he brought this incredible story to the big screen.

'Hold Your Fire' has its theatrical release in the US as well as on iTunes on May 20th.

“We’re taught a domination model in interaction. The best schools in America teach that you enter a conversation to win.” - Stefan Forbes

Time Stamps:

00:00 - Trailer for ‘Hold Your Fire.’
02:40 - Introducing the guest Stefan Forbes and the film.
05:05 - What ‘Hold Your Fire’ is about.
06:49 - How Stefan came across the story for the film.
09:35 - Who Harvey Schlossberg was and what his role in this story was.
14:38 - Why conflict resolution methods are not deeply accepted in American society.
19:03 - How vivid the memories of people who witnessed the events covered in the film still are.
24:50 - Why American justice system needs to become more victim centred.
26:14 - Who the team behind the film is and how they are involved.
30:00 - The success with representing diverse voices in the film.

Resources:

Hold Your Fire (2021)
Boogie Man: The Lee Atwater Story (2008)
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures

Transcript for Factual America Episode 98: Hold Your Fire: A Call for Restorative Justice in the US

Stefan Forbes 00:00
Hi, I'm Stefan Forbes, filmmaker of Hold Your Fire.

Speaker 1 00:05
Two guys asked me to pick up something from the bottom shelf. But when I stood up, the guy had a 25 automatic. Puts it to my head. Someone outside called the cops.

Speaker 2 00:16
Four terrorists had been surprised inside the store on Friday afternoon.

Speaker 3 00:20
No, they didn't know who we were.

Speaker 4 00:23
Holy crap. Twelve hostages inside a sporting goods store loaded with firearms.

Speaker 5 00:27
We opened the door. There were cops everywhere.

Speaker 6 00:31
That's when things went haywire.

Speaker 7 00:34
The perps certainly had evil intent: Kill the hostages. Go out in a blaze of glory.

Speaker 8 00:39
We didn't want to go out in a blaze of glory. But, yeah, if you want to execute me then I got all these guns. What do you think I'm gonna do? I'm gonna defend myself.

Speaker 9 00:49
All my life, police was killing black people.

Speaker 10 00:52
I know for a fact that cops aren't racist. We never discriminated against anybody.

Speaker 11 00:59
A story of violence inside a sporting goods store in Brooklyn.

Speaker 12 01:04
Botched robbery. Killed the police officer. I don't think that they believed they could get out alive.

Speaker 13 01:11
Bullets was flying all over the store. They wanted blood.

Speaker 14 01:15
I was terrified. We're through.

Speaker 15 01:18
Cops usually wind up overreacting.

Speaker 16 01:21
Kill them all!

Speaker 17 01:22
No. I believe in talking.

Speaker 18 01:25
Harvey Schlossberg. He didn't look like a cop. He didn't act like a cop.

Speaker 19 01:29
But he had his PhD in psychology.

Speaker 20 01:31
I believe police can influence people without bullying.

Speaker 21 01:35
The most difficult thing in the world to change is culture. Now we got to talk to these individuals?

Speaker 22 01:40
It was revolutionary. This is the birthplace of hostage negotiation. You're looking to find that key that opens that guy's head.

Speaker 23 01:52
We all love you. We'll help you.

Speaker 24 01:53
My mother?

Speaker 25 01:56
Anything you can to make a conversation. You must get them to talk.

Speaker 26 02:01
We're trying to figure out a way to end this thing.

Speaker 27 02:04
The crowd got outta hand.

Speaker 28 02:06
You might have a massacre on your hands.

Speaker 29 02:08
Nobody really knows what the next move is gonna be.

Speaker 30 02:13
Just give me a reason to kill you.

Speaker 31 02:15
Oh my God.

Speaker 32 02:17
Hold your fire. Hold your fire. Everything is under control.

Speaker 33 02:21
I want them out alive.

Matthew 02:41
This is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo Pictures, an Austin and London based production company making documentaries about America for international audiences. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. This week, it is my pleasure to welcome award winning filmmaker Stefan Forbes, cinematographer and director of Hold Your Fire. Stefan provides us with a riveting account of a hostage situation in Brooklyn in January 1973, when four young African American men were caught stealing guns in a sporting goods store and took a dozen hostages. Hold Your Fire has all the ingredients of a Sidney Lumet film. "As tense as any thriller from that period. The involving human stories and lasting impact of the events makes for an absorbing, gripping film with theatrical potential." says Allan Hunter, screendaily.com. "Fast- paced, suspenseful real-life thriller, featuring an array of fascinating characters. Compelling." writes Frank Scheck of Hollywood Reporter. "Gripping. Showcases the director's skill with locating sympathy in a morally dubious or compromised character." notes Brent Simon of goldenglobes.com. "A searing look into a little-known moment in history with profound repercussions for how we understand policing today." Grade A says Tambay Obensen of indiewire. Stay tuned as we discuss how Stefan brought this incredible story to the big screen. Stefan, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?

Stefan Forbes 04:06
They're great. You know, I'm out here just in the midst of a huge crisis of violence and masculinity in America and trying to pound the table for this crazy thing we've discovered called 'conflict resolution'. We've never really heard of it over here before.

Matthew 04:26
It's much needed, as you've already pointed out. To remind our listeners and viewers, the film is Hold Your Fire. Has a theatrical release in the US on May 20 and will also be found on iTunes. In terms of the UK and other locales, I would just suggest you keep an eye out for it - do a search every now and then, and I'm sure it will be making its way to the theater near you soon. Stefan, maybe you can get us started, because probably most of our audience has not seen this film yet. You've kind of more than alluded to it, but what is Hold Your Fire all about?

Stefan Forbes 05:08
It's about, you know, this incredible event back in 1973 in Brooklyn, where four young African American men were stealing guns for self-defense. The police assumed that they were members of the Black Liberation Army and came down with all the force of the NYPD. Soon, they were surrounded by 1,000 angry cops. They were sitting on an arsenal of weapons. And it snowballed into an event full of miscommunications, and misunderstandings, mistaken identity. And it soon became tragically violent. I was amazed to discover this because I love, you know, the old 1970s movies like Serpico and Dog Day Afternoon, and all these American stories of violence and New York and multicultural stuff. But I wanted to tell it in a 21st century way, kind of bringing out voices we might not have heard back then; hearing all different kinds of perspectives on what really happened involving race, and class, and police brutality that we didn't really understand back then was going on, but provides us an incredible window onto what this event became, which was the birth of modern hostage negotiation.

Matthew 06:41
I definitely would want to dive into that more. But I mean, how did this film come about? How did you come across this incredible story? And why, you know, it's, as you say, 1973, so we're looking at almost 50 years later before this actually makes it to the big screen.

Stefan Forbes 07:00
As a filmmaker, you know, I made a film called Boogey Man about a fierce political operative named Lee Atwater. I've always been interested in culture clash, in opposing forces in society. And I think a lot of that comes from my mom, who as a very young girl was kidnapped from her home in Poland by Stalin...

Matthew 07:23
Oh my goodness.

Stefan Forbes 07:24
Her whole community was put on a train and taken to a work camp near Siberia. People froze to death on a train and were thrown out at every stop like kindling. You know, this - her childhood trauma that she suffered, you know, it comes down through the generations. We now know that trauma is passed on epigenetically to family members. And I'd always wrestled with what she went through, and I could see that it was buried trauma in her life, never had any tools to really resolve it. And then I wondered, who are the people that understand conflict in our society? You know, how do they intervene? How do they defuse and de-escalate, and save lives and intervene in this process of war and suffering and violence that often seems so, you know, like, there's no way to interact or to solve it. And I've been looking for a story like this for ten years. As a doc filmmaker, I traveled to Kenya, I shot in the Rift Valley with warring tribes carrying Kalashnikovs over their shoulders as they heard cattle. You know, I talked to people who mediate between Sunni and Shiite in Iraq. And then I found this crazy story in my hometown of New York - my adopted hometown, I'm really from Boston. But I learned that in this top-down, authoritarian, militaristic institution called the NYPD, which at 40,000 people is larger than many countries armies, that there was a guy, a peacenik, a radical pacifist, police officer with a PhD in psychology, spreading this message of radical empathy. And I was like, what? Yeah, I got totally fascinated with Harvey Schlossberg, and how he came to be, and that was kind of my way into the story.

Matthew 09:19
Yeah, it's an incredible - well, there's many incredible themes and storylines in this film. But this Harvey Schlossberg, I mean, I think as he's described early on, at first, he's a traffic cop, right? He's actually not even - just a traffic cop who happens to have a PhD. Maybe you can tell us a little more about that. And how ground breaking or seminal this event was, and still is.

Stefan Forbes 09:50
There had been three previous events. There was Attica, this uprising that ended in violent, violent domination. And it just came in. They were firing bullets, spraying them around. They murdered their own prison guards. You know, it was this top-down, we're going to dominate you solution, that was just utterly wrong; didn't work. Then along came Dog Day Afternoon, which was a chaotic mess. As we all know from that film. There was also Munich, where the authorities at that hostage situation completely screwed up. Again, all these lives were lost, and Harvey had been watching this stuff. They asked him to come up with a solution, which - he's this, you know, this outcast, this Jewish intellectual, and a cop of violent, macho Irish guys. And he came up with a solution that they thought was 'fruity', which is codeword back then for being a homosexual. He said he wants to talk to these criminals instead of killing them? You know, that's insane. But here we are on this beat corner in Brooklyn, where there's twelve hostages, women and children. And if they even throw tear gas in there, these explosives in this stockpile of ammunition is gonna go sky high, and destroy a whole block of people. Harvey was pleading with them, Please don't go in. They bring a tank. They're ready to smash through the wall and crush people. It's amazing that this man was able to affect change in this organization that totally didn't want to hear it. And luckily, there was a police chief that was seen, as they say in the film, as a pantywaist.

Matthew 11:38
Yeah.

Stefan Forbes 11:38
His masculinity was also challenged. But he'd said, as a top-down decision, You're gonna listen to Harvey, and we're gonna try it his way.

Matthew 11:48
He's also described as bookish, I think...

Stefan Forbes 11:50
Yeah. A bookworm! The worst...

Matthew 11:52
Bookworm. Oh my God. No, no, no. Heaven forbid. I mean, there's so much in there. I love how that interplays with, you know, it goes both ways. But you have Harvey on camera saying this is how you should do things. And then, obviously, they don't do that in the actual event. Or, you know, they talk about bringing one of the perpetrators' mother in to talk to him. And as Harvey says, Well, usually people who are taking hostages and find themselves in these sorts of situations don't usually have the best relationships with their families. So, you know, it's not usually the - you know, so he's got all these great little nuggets of knowledge: dynamic inactivity, get to know the hostage takers, anyone can speak, but the real skill is listening, you know, it all seems like common sense. But it was, at least at the time, anything but for most people, or certainly the police.

Stefan Forbes 12:51
Yeah, I'm really hoping that this film can have an impact in our society. Here in America, as you know, just riddled with guns. And we're really taught a domination model of interaction that we even see in school. You know, the best schools in America teach, you enter conversations to win, you want to shut everyone else up and prevail. And there's a very different model that sounds intuitive, but it's incredibly hard to implement in our lives, in our families, with our children. And we as men, learning to model for our sons; you know, I don't need to dominate you. I want to make sure that you hear - you know, I hear you. You know that your point of view is welcome. And, I'm going to ask you some questions. We can resolve this without me trying to force a solution on you, that causes you to resent me and builds up your resistance. And that's a model that America doesn't understand. You see us, we did it in Iraq and Afghanistan. We come in with force and with weaponry, and we build our own resistance, and we make it incredibly hard to find solutions. That's the model that police are working on. And as I worked on this film, you know, during the deaths of Elijah McClain and Breonna Taylor, and we saw Michael Brown in Ferguson and George Floyd. It just became shocking to me that this model, this brilliant model has existed in the police department for 50 years, and we're still not teaching it to our officers.

Matthew 14:34
And why do you think that is?

Stefan Forbes 14:37
Again, it's this code that is written into America's DNA that we inherited from England, and its domination of the colonies. You know, it is that a real man has to win. We got to be number one, that it's we can't ever show weakness. We can't ever have a discussion. These are things that are just baked into our economic system that goes so deep. And in learning to use conflict resolution tools, we challenge the very basis of our society, which is what's so fascinating and radical about the thought that Harvey Schlossberg brings out in this film.

Matthew 15:22
And I guess there's - I mean, as you've already mentioned, you know, your great film Boogie Man, the Lee Atwater story, I mean, and that was about partly the fermenting of polarization and polarization's only gotten worse, certainly, since that film came out, believe it or not. I mean, I guess there are lessons there as well, not just in terms of hostage situations, isn't there?

Stefan Forbes 15:49
Yeah. And you know, in America, especially, we love to pontificate about pluralism and the melting pot, and we're all one. But the dialogues that we have as a society are actually very top-down. And people from different groups are siloed. And we can't understand each other. And with the intensification of the internet, and the AI that seeks conflict, and really emotionally charged speech in order to engage people online, you know, it's become harder and harder and that process of emotional wedge politics that Atwater specialized in, has just spread across all platforms in our society. So, this model of active listening, of letting people know you hear them and you understand their concerns. It's something that, you know, a lot of progressives think, Oh, yeah, of course, we do that. No, you don't. And these people on January 6, who are storming our capitol, don't feel heard or listened to, in any way, by the elites in America. And if we want to have a democracy, we're going to need to learn how to actually listen to people and make them feel heard. Because that's what a democracy is. So, this is an urgent message, you know, that I feel especially in light of our politics, you know, we have kids committing suicide because they have no - they don't feel listened to or understood. And, you know, these techniques are crucial for anyone in any walk of life. This is not just a thriller, about cops and guns and tanks, you know, I want people to look a little deeper.

Matthew 17:36
I think that's an excellent point. And why don't we - let's just hold it right there, we're gonna give - speaking of messages - we're gonna let our sponsors have a quick message but then we'll be right back with Stefan Forbes, director, cinematographer, writer. I mean, you did just about everything on this film, I think, of Hold Your Fire. Theatrical release on May 20 in the US and will also be able to be found on iTunes.

Factual America midroll 18:00
If you enjoy Factual America, check out the MovieMaker podcast. That's all one word: MovieMaker, where our friends at moviemaker.com interview everyone from filmmakers just breaking in to A-Listers like David Fincher and Edgar Wright, about their movie making secrets and behind-the-scenes tricks-of-the-trade. They go deep, and let the guests speak uninterrupted, to get you the most film insight. Now back to Factual America.

Matthew 18:28
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Stefan Forbes director of Hold Your Fire, we've been talking about his film, and the many lessons that can be learned from this, not just about a - it's not just a send up of 19, early 70s cop films and the like, it's so much more than that. And the one thing that struck me as well is we do relive this story in practically, in real time - but these remarkable interviews with those who were there, and, you know, it's also a film, it struck me, but that it's a film about memory or different memories. And, as you've already said that things are seldom what they seem, there's so many assumptions are made by the different parties, especially the police, but - and we also come to these situations with all kinds of backgrounds and baggage, if you will. And, you know, how - I mean that's incredible, this many years later to find all these people who were still around who could talk - and the thing that struck me is how real these memories still are, you know, it's not like they've really faded with time.

Stefan Forbes 19:49
Yeah, trauma is really interesting. I was just talking to Steve Gilroy, the officer who was shot - to his niece, yes.

Matthew 19:58
Yeah.

Stefan Forbes 19:59
And she told me, she can remember at five years old saying goodbye to him when he went off on his shift for the NYPD. And the feel of the cold floor on her bare feet, as she said, Be careful out there Uncle Steve. Like, it's seared into her mind. And we're talking about how trauma is passed on epigenetically. And, you know, especially in the Jewish culture, as Harvey was, like, this lone Jew on a force of Irish guys, you know, there are centuries of suffering and oppression that you carry with you, you carry the markers in your genes. And there's a culture of, you know, Tikkun Olam, and healing the world, that I think is really present in this. But a lot of the people that I interviewed, their trauma is bursting out all over, and you can see it on their faces. And for me, as a filmmaker, you know, I'm always delving into people's memories. But interviews become really intense, almost sacred spaces, where someone is confiding in you, and for Shu'aib Raheem, in prison for 37 years, you know, we built a lot of trust in - until it wasn't a point when, you know, I'm asking him, Can I tell your story? He's like, Hey, when the hell are you going to start filming me? I've been carrying these stories for decades. No one's ever asked me, really, how we saw things, what really happened. And this guy, called a cop killer, wanting to be thrown away by society as a man who should never be released. It turns out, he probably didn't kill, and neither of his friends, killed this cop. It looks like it was probably friendly fire. And cops have said to me off-camera, They didn't find the bullet? You know, we always find the bullet. He was shot in the side of the head, this cop, as he peered out at the store from behind a pillar, that bullet probably came from behind or to the side. And this perspective of Shu'aib's that's never been heard, it's really incredibly difficult trying to weave that in with the voices of these cops. And with these hostages. Again, I was saying before we pay lip service to pluralism, but it's incredibly hard to tell a story from multiple perspectives. That's one reason this film took so long for me to edit. You're trying to weave a way in and actually tell a narrative that sounds completely insane and confusing when you try to let different voices in the room. So, you know, our national project of America, where we integrate everyone's voices, I actually have a lot more sympathy for our country, because enter what Europe is going through now with immigration. It's not easy to welcome everyone's voice into the room.

Matthew 22:51
No, I think that's a very good point. And I think it's, you know, having, well, having watched it and even listened to vast parts of it again, you know, it just is amazing how the same events, everyone can see things differently. And the misunderstandings, you know, even about that incident with the shot police officer, you know, someone said, Well, he said something about 'you pig'. And he did say that, but not about that, it wasn't about - and also, I think it was very interesting, you know, they were self-defense, but self-defense from whom and because they were black and going in it was just assumed they were, like you said, Black Liberation Army, and they'd already broken with the Nation of Islam. And so - and, you know, the time these guys, I mean, only recently have some of them have even gotten out of jail. Isn't that right?

Stefan Forbes 23:56
Yeah. And we uncovered such a different story than you've heard in the media, which is often dominated by the policeman's union. And they have these victims putting out these incredible victim statements that make it sound like they hate this guy. And they want him locked up forever, and he's dangerous. One thing I discovered because Shu'aib, after getting released, has become such a respected voice in the restorative justice movement. He's gone through a process of really deep self-examination over his role in even trying to steal those guns and people dying as a result, that he's an incredibly wise and insightful person about masculinity and violence. He's a voice that shouldn't be locked up. But someone who can be a healer in our communities and can teach everyone what we need to do as a society. And that's, that was a real surprise to me that oftentimes, our justice system of lock them up and throw away the key is not victim centered. Victims don't want somebody just thrown away, because they know they're going to come back into the community; their children won't have had a father; they won't have worked through the things they need to do. And victims have questions. They want to dialogue with the person who harmed them. They don't believe in our justice system, because they've seen it failing time and time again. So, the solutions, and many of the men who understand these patterns and how to intervene in them, are not in their communities where they belong, actually using the skills that they might have learned in prison. So, that's another huge message for our film that we need to explore restorative justice, and listen to the victims who actually want to change the whole models that we're working with here.

Matthew 25:51
No, and I think, in trying to get that message out, because I'm also cognizant we don't have - unfortunately, we don't have that much time left to discuss this incredible film, but in getting the message out, you had quite a team, helping you with this. Could you say something about how, you know, how Fab Five Freddy got involved, and Sam Pollard. We've had Sam Pollard on this podcast, on to discuss MLK/FBI, which is another incredible film. I'm gonna miss people, I know you're gonna tell me I'm missing people. We got people like Jonathan Sanford, which is the composer, although, probably people watching this film may not, you know, may think about it, but there's some incredible sections of the film where I think the music is quite, quite poignant.

Stefan Forbes 26:40
Thank you so much for noticing Jonathan's work. You know, we were in a band together in LA. And I play music and, you know, the music is so crucial to me. And his involvement, you know, I think he's going to be a really big composer. He's doing all kinds of TV shows and features now. But we rewrote this music, probably ten times. And, you know, he helped to bridge the gap from like 70s funk, to neoclassical. I mean, he's an incredible composer. We also worked with my friend John Beasley, who's an incredible keyboardist, too; we collaborated on a show called Monk Uncut at Disney Hall in Los Angeles. He has a big band called Monk'estra. He's a Grammy winning composer who toured as a kid with Miles Davis...

Matthew 27:36
Wow.

Stefan Forbes 27:36
An incredible voice in himself. And with John, he brought in his trio with Terreon Gully, and Edwin Livingston, and they improvised live in the studio to picture and we shaped those improvs and then incorporated them back into the film. So, there's portraits of different people like Ben Ward, an African American chief of police in New York City, whose again, trying to influence this often very hidebound, and rigid, officer corps who resent him as a black man being above them, telling them what to do. John would do improvs on the piano, and we'd talk about the scene and the character, and he'd go back and do a completely different one. So, it was amazing working with him and with my friend, Fab Five Freddy, who I've known forever. When I started making the film, I was like, Fab, you're from that part of Brooklyn, tell me what's up, you know. And he brought me down to the hood and introduced me to his uncle. Fab is from a tradition of, like, Brooklyn Marxist intellectuals. His dad was super close with Max Roach, who is Fab's godfather. So, you know, he said, Yeah, that's where we used to buy our sneakers. That was the strip, we used to go shopping. And so, I had this grounding and in the neighborhood that when cops would say, Yeah, you know, that wasn't Broadway with the bright lights and the stars. That was Broadway in Brooklyn with the dead rats, and the junkies, and the dirty needles. You take your life in your hands. And I was like, Oh my god. That's so cinematic. That's how I should start the movie. And then I'm like, Wait, wait, no. Fab told me it was actually a decent neighborhood where families would go shopping. I can't fall into this, you know, 70s crime film narrative. So, you know, in having a wider array of friends and trusted sources like a Sam Pollard, who's going to watch it, you don't fall into these cliches, no matter how dramatic they may seem. And you have a multiplicity of perspectives, when you approach a historical story with - frankly, it's boring if you're going to tell it the old white people's frame, you know, open that up a little. It's hard to constantly weave in these conflicting voices, but that's my belief of what a film and American society should be: a rich conversation, you know?

Matthew 27:38
Yeah. And I think you've - well, my opinion, I think you've done extremely well. And it's, as you say, I feel like every voice is represented here. The hostages' voices are heard, at least in certainly, in some cases, through the family members and the legacy that this has had. And, it's interesting when it's - it's almost like they are having a conversation, even though none of them are in the same room, right? You know, it's how you would hope we would all be engaging with each other, so....

Stefan Forbes 30:44
Yeah, yeah; you know, my conception of a good documentary film is, like, it's just like a dinner party, you can invite all these people that never speak in our society, and let them throw things back and forth and engage in this dialogue that is so much richer, when you're not just hearing people lob verbal, you know, fusillades at each other in the media. Let's really have a more intimate discussion.

Matthew 31:11
And let's, you know, the cops themselves; I thought they were very well rounded and nuanced in their own views, in how they approached the different ones. But that was, again, part of this conversation, and I think that was all extremely well done, and it's a great film. I'm sure it will do well. And just want to thank you again, Stefan, for coming on to the podcast. It's great to finally get you on, and just to remind our listeners, we've been talking with Stefan Forbes, director of Hold Your Fire. Theatrical release on May 20. It's also coming out on iTunes, and for those outside the US or North America do keep a lookout for this because it's well worth a watch. I'd like to give a shout out to Sam and Joe Graves at Innersound Audio, in Escrick, England, in deepest, darkest Yorkshire. A big thanks to Nevena Paunovic, podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show. And finally, a big thanks to our listeners. As always, we love to hear from you, so, please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas. You can reach out to us on YouTube, social media, or directly by going to our website, www.factualamerica.com and clicking on the Get in Touch link. And as always, please remember to like us, and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.

Factual America Outro 32:44
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Hold Your Fire: A Call for Restorative Justice in the US

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