Detainee 001: 'The American Taliban' John Walker Lindh

Factual America

26 Oct

Written By

A young man from the San Francisco suburbs journeys to the Middle East and soon finds himself as the face of Islamist extremism in post-9/11 America. This is the story of John Walker Lindh, as explored in the recent Showtime hit documentary Detainee 001.

Emmy-winning director Greg Barker joins us to discuss this unlikeliest of stories. The film shows how America grapples with justice in the fog of war, and how narratives were built and destroyed in the aftermath of 9/11.

We discuss the misconceptions people have about John Walker Lindh, the life of freelance war journalists, and how Greg has managed to gain access to high-profile subjects over the years.

“They all either got totally hooked on the adrenaline of war reporting, or they had a moment where they thought, I don’t want to get killed.” - Greg Barker

Time Stamps:

00:00 - The trailer for Detainee 001.
03:23 - What the film is about and how people responded to John Walker Lindh.
07:05 - The misconceptions that were pushed by the media about this man.
10:22 - The vilification of Muslims in America.
12:39 - How Greg accessed the footage for the film.
18:22 - The freelance journalists that risked their lives to document the Taliban.
22:04 - Why it was so difficult to get people to talk about the John Walker Lindh case.
25:27 - Why Lindh joined the Taliban and the links he has to Malcolm X.
27:21 - Where John Walker Lindh is and the difficulties Greg had in contacting him.
30:57 - Why Greg wanted to make this film.
32:06 - How he knew the Taliban would regain power in Afghanistan.
35:33 - How he gains access to such high-profile subjects.
42:36 - The next projects Greg is working on.
44:15 - The shift in the type of documentaries that are getting commissioned.

Resources:

Detainee 001 (2021)
White Coat Rebels (2021)
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures

Transcript for Factual America Episode 74 - Detainee 001: 'The American Taliban' John Walker Lindh

Speaker 1 00:03
Hey John. Can I ask how you ended up here?

John Walker Lindh 00:05
It's kind of a long story. I love the hair [laughs].

News Reporter 00:18
John Walker Lindh stands accused of trying to kill his own countrymen.

Speaker 3 00:22
He's a traitor.

Speaker 4 00:22
He admits training in Al Qaeda camps.

Speaker 5 00:24
He began his journey to Islam after seeing the movie Malcolm X.

Speaker 6 00:29
What could be more American than that? Just watching a Spike Lee movie.

Speaker 7 00:36
After 9/11, the American government went to Afghanistan to question prisoners.

Speaker 8 00:43
And it was discovered that one of the prisoners was an American named John Walker Lindh. But then a few Taliban soldiers stage an uprising.

Speaker 9 00:56
You will never make me believe that John Walker Lindh didn't know what was going to happen that day.

Speaker 10 01:02
As a white middle class American from Marin County, California, American Taliban. A media frenzy ensued.

Speaker 11 01:13
He was our first terrorism prosecution after 9/11, and that looks like this.

Speaker 12 01:24
He was kept in custody 54 days without a lawyer.

Speaker 13 01:27
They didn't let him go in front of a jury.

Speaker 14 01:31
This is not just about John Walker Lindh.

Speaker 15 01:34
It comes down to the idea of treason...

Speaker 16 01:36
... and keeping the country safe.

Speaker 17 01:38
They have brought up the cannon to shoot the mouse.

Speaker 18 01:42
Why is treason worse than any other crime?

Matthew 01:55
That is a trailer from the Showtime documentary, Detainee 001. And this is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo Pictures, an Austin and London based production company making documentaries about America for international audiences. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. And if you don't know the drill already, each week I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers, and their subjects. This week we're in for a real treat as we welcome acclaimed Emmy winning director Greg Barker to discuss one of his latest films, Detainee 001. The film documents the unlikeliest of stories: a young man from the San Francisco suburbs journeys to the Middle East and soon finds himself as the face of Islamist extremism in post 9/11 America. Yes, we are talking about John Walker Lindh. Greg, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?

Greg Barker 02:45
Good. Thanks, Matthew. Yeah, happy to be here.

Matthew 02:48
Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you on. As we've already noted, the film is Detainee 001, released in September on Showtime. And, I gather, it's also on various streaming services and digital platforms. So, congratulations on that. And I know you've been busy on other projects as well, which we can talk about. But let's first focus on Detainee 001. What we usually ask our guests, it's usually the first question, is maybe you can tell us what Detainee 001 is about, give us a little bit of a synopsis for our audience.

Greg Barker 03:23
I thought you just did it, actually; I thought actually, as you said this kid becomes the face of radical Islam. I thought, yeah, that's pretty - we should've use that as our blurb. You just explained it. But it was that, you know, I've been, for a while, I've been trying to make sense of what - how the post 9/11 world has changed us. And I look for, like, you know, individual stories to unpack moments in time. I'm particularly interested in, like, origin stories of this, you know, the way things unfolded in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 with those first six months to a year, which I think really kind of set the stage for a lot that has followed. This story, John Walker Lindh, is - it was in my mind for years, this kid from Marin County, California, as a teenager goes on a spiritual quest to find Islam and ends up fighting with the Taliban, joining them before 9/11, but he meets Osama bin Laden, then he's captured from the battlefield at the same time that Osama bin Laden is escaping through Tora Bora, if you remember that?

Matthew 04:31
Yeah.

Greg Barker 04:32
Suddenly, this guy is found, and he becomes the face of the enemy. And the film is really about our reaction to him. He himself is kind of a mystery. And frankly, he's about as interesting as most guys are at 18 or 19. He's not actually that interesting. He thinks he is but really isn't. But it's the reaction that we have to him is really what the film unpacks through this extraordinary footage that we came across. It's really an experiential film that lives in the moment, that takes us back to a time that seems, a long, long time ago, but in a moment when a lot of our current world was kind of formed; it's like an origin story, and it's also just a phenomenal yarn. So, yeah, that's what it is.

Matthew 05:21
Indeed. I mean, I remember when it happened, some of the articles that you put up on the screen, I remember reading, certainly that New York Times expose on him and my wife and I still remember some of the quotes from some of these articles that, you know, lived really large then; and then it just, at least for me living here over in the UK, it kind of - is gone quiet. And then it's interesting, I mean - I think as you say in your film, it's a well documented story. It lived, played out in front of us on international media, but it is interesting, what you're trying to bring to the big screen that maybe we haven't seen already reminding us how this all happened. And how visceral some of the reactions were.

Greg Barker 06:10
Yeah, and I think when you look at John's case, you can trace back, like, the distortions of the justice system, to this case, you know, the vilification of the enemy, anybody who's different, to this case, it really was a turning point, a pivot in time. And that's where we decided to kind of just dive in. And so, through this one particular story, you learn a lot about who we have become since and the consequences of all those decisions made way back when that we're still living with.

Matthew 06:43
Yeah, I mean, maybe explain to our audience who are maybe not familiar or haven't seen the film yet. I mean, what have we gotten wrong about this story? I mean, many of us would have had our impressions of him and would have been shaped by the media coverage at the time. That, you know, I mean, one thing that struck me was the eight out of 10 charges being dropped. I was not aware of that. I mean, I mentioned I was going to be interviewing you and people who know the story said, Well, isn't he still in prison? Isn't he locked away forever? You know? What did we get wrong, you think in terms of the general coverage of this?

Greg Barker 07:25
Well, what we got wrong is kind of like fixating on this one guy as the face of the enemy. You know, that's what. This came from the Justice Department, the White House, and particularly the media. I mean, the media was hungry for something, for a story. You know, the war in Afghanistan, the first wave of the war was kind of petering out. And suddenly, this guy is - it became this huge news story. And I was, and I knew intellectually, it was a big because I kind of remembered, like you. But when you actually go back and look at the articles and the news reports, it was everywhere. Of course, so much has happened since, particularly the invasion of Iraq, and all that, kind of makes this fade into memory. But it was the biggest story at the time. And it really - look, I mean, if you think of Guantanamo, you know, the decision to kind of not prosecute these cases within the general US, you know, the justice system, this all goes back to this moment, the abuse at the hands of American soldiers, that he was subjected to, foreshadows Abu Ghraib. It all began then. And the reason that they never really, there was a last minute plea bargain, which gave a kind of an unsatisfactory ending, which is one reason I think it kind of just faded away; it didn't have an ending; he was never convicted. Neither side, the US government or his lawyers, wanted to go to trial in the end, because the US government didn't want the abuse and the mis- you know, the kind of miscarriage of justice that happened to him, exposed. His lawyers also did not want to trial with this kid who was, you know, public enemy number one to happen. It was literally the trial was going to be a mile or two from the Pentagon, beginning on the first anniversary of 9/11. And they're like, you know, how do you get a jury that's going to really be sympathetic to this kid. So, in the end, they just pled out and it disappeared, so we never really knew what happened. And so, there was never this kind of, you know, closure that we look for, an end of the story, and it just - I think it was just one reason that just kind of like drifted away and, you know, he went to prison for 17 years and is now out, you know, he was released about two years ago.

Matthew 09:59
But as you say, it's this whole, you know, using 9/11 and the events afterwards for, you know, lack of due process, you know, justification. I mean, we actually, you know, officially the US government came up with legal reasons for justifying torture and these sort of things. Yeah.

Greg Barker 10:21
And look at, you know, look at how, you know, Muslims are still treated in the general media and the public perception. I mean, it's quite, it's very difficult to be a Muslim American or in Britain in the last few decades. The vilification, of course, began certainly after 9/11, but really was personified in this country, the US, by this one case, you know, where, you know, there was no room for nuance, and I'm not saying John Walker Lindh was a perfect guy, and I'm not excusing anything. But suddenly this kid who was one of our own, how could he be a Muslim? And how could he want to go on to some Jihad quest, and he - it vilified that whole community. And, I mean, Muslim Americans wanted nothing to do with this guy. He was kind of a, you know, a hapless 18-19 year old, but he became this kind of, you know, this face of all that was wrong with Islam. And I think we still are living with those consequences, not just in his case, but the broad strokes, look at how the FBI has, you know, split almost a quarter of its, or a half of its, entire budget on counterterrorism within this country focusing on plots that largely don't exist, are made up, but the FBI investigates and all to stop the next John Walker Lindh. And it really, it really kind of set in motion the whole chain of events that I think history will not look kindly upon at all. So, that's why I wanted to make the movie and plus, as I said before, the footage and everything was just incredible, so for a filmmaker it was a dream.

Matthew 12:03
Oh yeah, I wanted to talk about that footage more in a minute. But related to that footage, actually is, I mean, much of the focus, which I found very interesting as well, what I wasn't necessarily expecting, but it was a sort of revelation, was this focus on the immediate events, leading to his capture and immediately after that. The Battle of Qala-i-Jangi and Mazar-i-Sharif. I mean, that's - is this because you're getting to this origin story? Is this why you focus as much attention as you did on that part of the story?

Greg Barker 12:40
Well, I mean, you know, why people listening are filmmakers. You make the film, particularly in documentaries with the material you can get, so, you know, the reason it's the focus is (a) it's great material, but it's what we had, you know, and once we found that, oh my gosh, we have all this amazing footage, we can access. And the film just wanted to be that. It just wanted - it's like, this is so incredible. It seems like it's from a different era. Why not just ground the film in this incredible, medieval, you know, batch and just let it live there. If we didn't have the footage, it would have been a totally different kind of film.

Matthew 13:22
Well, since we're on the topic. I mean, how do you get access to - I mean, this footage is incredible. You've got, you know, footage of CIA operatives actually questioning John Walker Lindh, you know, this footage from the French and German journalists. The CNN filmmaker, apologies, I forget his name right now.

Greg Barker 13:42
Oh, Robert Pelton.

Matthew 13:43
Yeah, I mean, but you got... it's amazing.

Greg Barker 13:45
It began with the Pelton footage. So, Robert Pelton was this guy who was known as - he wrote a book called The World's Most Dangerous Places. Wasn't really a journalist. He was like an adventurer. You know, but he'd go everywhere, and he'd spent a lot of time with jihadi special officers. He's there. He's there, you know, in northern Afghanistan again. So, I'd done another film where I'd licensed some of his footage. And Pelton had - I'd gone to see him and he had like, you know, a garage full of like, old, like, tapes. 'Just take this stuff' and stuff was in there, and we digitized a whole bunch of it. And so, we finished that other film, and I was sitting with an assistant editor, I can't remember exactly, and going through some of this material and then saw this long interview that Pelton had done with John Walker Lindh, which, interestingly, had never really been seen, because the footage itself was subject to a legal battle between the Justice Department and CNN, where, at the time of Lindh's court case, the Justice Department, wanted to use it as evidence. And CNN was like, You can't, he was just a freelancer but they took over and said, You can't. We're not gonna give you all the rushes. It became this whole thing. So, all that has ever seen was like two or three minutes of the package story and the rest went into some archives at the federal courthouse. Turns out, I had all that footage, just through Pelton's, like, you know, data dump, you know, and we had it and I go, That's incredible. I've never seen that before. And that was the basis of - that's how the film was commissioned. And then from that, it was just like, you know, the kind of normal process of like, who else was there? Let's find this other footage. Some of it was in Lebanon, some of it was in Germany, people handed us rushes, they probably shouldn't have handed us, but you know, we just kind of like, figured it all out. And - like a little detective study - that that's fun. But it took us four and a half years to make the film and probably two and a half years to gather all the material. So... You know.

Matthew 15:52
Well, that's amazing. I mean, including that footage that Pelton says that was offered to him originally, and he didn't take it. But is it...

Greg Barker 16:00
Yeah, there's this key moment when CIA officers at this prison where a lot of Taliban and al Qaeda prisoners are being held, interrogate several of them, including John Walker Lindh. It's a decisive moment in his story. And one of the CIA officers is then killed later that day, in an uprising, and there was a camera, probably some kind of Northern Alliance intelligence guy was filming a lot. A lot of that footage has disappeared. But some of it we have snippets of it. And we were able to piece together from a lot of different sources enough to kind of create a moment there. It was detective work.

Matthew 16:44
Yeah. But it's amazing. Because it's like a war movie. It's like, I mean, you do see it all play out. I mean, as much as I think you could have could. It's amazing what was captured about, you know; I'd heard of the battle years ago, but not to be able to see it is it did it's... I mean...

Greg Barker 17:10
It's interesting in terms of filmmaking as I generally - I've done several of these films, we get amazing footage. I don't have dedicated archivist - film archivist - do this work. Because it's almost too, they're very helpful if you want to find one specific thing in an archive but I have my researchers, my people who speak the language, and know the story, look for the footage, and it usually unpacks material that dedicated archivists are not able to find; so, that's how I approach it. I have the APs, field producers, do all the footage work.

Matthew 17:47
In that regards, I found it - I mean, I know this film is about John Walker Lindh, about post 9/11 America and immediately after that - but in some ways, it also becomes as much about sort of, there's elements of it about war photographers and correspondents, you know, it's quite incredible what they put themselves through, I think we sometimes get the talking heads who play it safe in Kabul or wherever they are, but these guys are right there embedded with - right on the front lines as much as anyone. Quite incredible.

Matthew 18:20
Yeah.

Greg Barker 18:20
Yeah, so there's Pelton there, and he's doing his thing. And he's kind of an independent operative.

Greg Barker 18:22
Then there were a handful of journalists who came into northern Afghanistan as the Taliban were falling. And they came in from, I guess, Uzbekistan. And they ended up at this medieval fortress called Qala-i-Jangi, outside of Mazar-i-Sharif in northern Afghanistan. They were all stringers. These were not, like, the top guys are flying into Kabul and doing their stand-ups or whatever, these are like just, guys. I think they were mostly guys up there. And they stumble on this big - on this battle. And it was interesting talking to them. There's like four guys in particular, who were the main sort of outside journalists there. French guy, German guy, British guy. One American guy, all freelancers. It was a defining moment in all of their lives. They all thought they're going to die. They all either got totally hooked on the adrenaline of war reporting, or had a moment where they thought I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to get killed. You could have actually made a film just about these four guys. And they stayed in touch over the years. Because, you know, they were the only ones there until, like, within a few days, you know, Dan Rather shows up and all that. But the beginning is just these - it's like, what the fuck's going on? And they're the ones with all this amazing footage, and these experiences, and they, you know - interesting what's happened to them since. It's like some of them, a couple of them, totally left journalism. Some of them are damaged, and I don't want to speak for them, but it was a defining moment in all of their lives. So, totally, you could create a moment around that. It's not - it's gonna sound a little weird, but it's not - I did a bit of, like, combat stuff in my earlier days; it's not so different from what drove John Walker Lindh to want to be there as well, you know, there was an ideology, perhaps to him, that not there in the journalists, but this quest for adventure that you can have when you're very young and kind of stupid, and thinking this is going to be, you know, kind of fun, which it is, in a way, is a similarity between young jihadist and a young reporter who wants to go up. And that drives a lot of this. Not just the coverage of war, but war itself.

Matthew 20:53
Well, it's interesting. I mean, as you say, some of the sentiments they have are very raw, you know, even just talking about the energy; talking about energy, because there's, I mean, bodies littered all over the place. I mean, I know they're not being inconsiderate. It's just that I can only imagine what it must be like in those situations. And it is kind of a young man's game. I did have - maybe inspired by Dan Rather - used to think I wanted to go into hurricane places and help people in the middle of a hurricane. But, I think my mom's happy I never did do that. But, I mean, and then also, I think, you know, and then you do get the, I think you've some interesting and very, you know, great access to other unsympathetic sources, if you want to look at it that way to John Walker Lindh, and we've got the daughter of Johnny Michael Spann, who's the first American combatant to be killed in the War on Terror. We've got the CIA operatives and their own blunt assessments. So, how keen were they to be part of this story? And share their - I mean, it must be difficult, especially for the daughter.

Greg Barker 22:07
She was, yeah, I think she was a little reluctant. But she ultimately wanted to tell her story. This was weird from the make, in that a lot of the key, almost all of the key decision makers at the time, John's lawyers, the government, soldiers, and the government officials who oversaw the case, didn't want to be a part of it. In fact, didn't want the film to be made, wanted us to go away, because none of them come out looking good, frankly. But, you know, some people wanted to talk. Alison Spann was, I think that just the time was right for her. She'd become a journalist, partly because of the way her father's story was sensationalized; her father's death, when she was nine or 10 years old. She wanted to go into journalism to tell more empathetic stories, interesting woman, and, you know, a handful of people wanted to talk but what's interesting is, like, the key, usually you can crack kind of a wall, in this case, film, most people, I think, we just don't know fully what really why he was, pled out, because nobody, including John and his family, and the lawyers really want the truth to come out. And I think that it was a wall that we just hit. So, I had to find another way of making the film, and find people who were relevant, who would talk, but the normal people who would make - if I was making an investigative film, which I tried in the course of doing this - were just, you know, didn't want to talk.

Matthew 23:40
So, I mean, when you hit a wall like that, you knew you had enough of a film that, well, you just make a different film, then maybe you started off.

Greg Barker 23:49
We hoped rather than knew. In the end, yes, we did. But it's hope!

Matthew 23:56
I think, yeah, I think documentary filmmakers are some of the most hopeful people I've ever met! So, let's take a quick break. And then we'll we'll be right back with Greg Barker, the director of Detainee 001.

Factual America midroll 24:12
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Matthew 24:31
Welcome back to Factual America. And we're here with award winning director Greg Barker, the director of Detainee 001, released in September 2021 on Showtime and on streaming services and digital platforms, globally, I believe. Actually, this is interesting. I come to my notes and I said 'interest'; my first question after the break is 'interesting origin story', which you did say at the very beginning. This is an origin story. But, what I found was this whole, this Malcolm X connection, and what - I mean, you don't go and dwell on it too much as you say, John Walker Lindh is a 19 year old boy, he's not all - or young man - is not all that interesting, but it is kind of an interesting how this, what, sort of at least somehow sparked his journey.

Greg Barker 25:26
Yeah, so that connection was made in the film by John Wray, who's a novelist, who wrote a book called Godsend that's inspired by John Walker Lindh's journey. It's very different, but it's inspired by John's journey. Because I was, like, racking my brain trying to figure out - I don't understand what compelled John to go on this journey. I don't think his parents understand. I don't get it. And so, I read Godsend, and I thought, Oh, that's - I talked to John Wray, the writer, and just like, how did you make sense of this? And he'd done a lot of research. You know, there's - what we know is that he said he watched Malcolm X, Spike Lee movie, as a kid, and was kind of inspired by that. We also know, there's other weird things. He was 14 or 15 but he was like, blogging as an African American rapper. And, you know, it's just kind of clearly a kid in search of an identity. So, lots of teenagers go through that, they don't all end up meeting Osama bin Laden. So, what then takes somebody from a mixed-up teenager looking for a purpose, to then into the battlefield in Afghanistan? It's kind of, it's - I think it's impossible to know, without going to some deep, deep cycle analysis of John. I doubt he may not even know himself, you know, so I don't want to speculate about all of that.

Matthew 26:59
And I guess it's - you were talking about hitting walls. I mean, do we know where John Walker Lindh is now? Did you...?

Greg Barker 27:07
Yeah, well, he's released. Sorry. Sorry. Did I what?

Matthew 27:12
Oh, no, no, go ahead. I mean, do we know where he is now? And did you try to reach out to him? Or was that even a consideration?

Greg Barker 27:21
Well, we don't know exactly where he is. He's probably in northern Virginia, because he's still under some kind of court supervision for a period of years after his release, and that supervision is within the jurisdiction of the court where he was tried, the federal court of northern Virginia. He's probably there. You know, he - yeah, we tried to, I mean, I was in touch with his lawyers and his family, several times met his father, and met the lawyers talked to his mom on several times, and, you know, it looked - and through them was in contact with John in prison. The unit that he was held in, in federal prison, prevents any outsiders from contacting him, so, it was all indirect. We thought he was going to talk for a time. We thought the family would cooperate. In the end, I think for the reasons I've said before, they decided it wasn't in their interest. And, yeah, and I get it, I think, you know, we don't know what John really thinks now, and they didn't want to make things worse for him. You know, so, and I think they also worried about somebody coming after him; some crazy person that they knew what he looked like, which is not - I get that too, but we tried, and I wish he'd have talked, but he didn't. But, in the end, I also concluded, he gave one interview to Robert Pelton, right after he was captured. It's a great interview. It's the core of the film. And it's also immediate. So, if you want to understand what somebody felt back then 20 years ago, that's a more accurate source than somebody who's 20 years later, who's, we all remember things and twist our narrative to benefit ourselves, I'd rather know what he said at the time. So, that is the, kind of becomes the spine of the film, and I think gives more insight than anything else it's gonna give.

Matthew 29:11
I think that's a very good point. I mean, it's all uncensored, he's not expecting to be interviewed - Pelton even talks about letting the cameras roll, even.

Greg Barker 29:21
It's like when I did this doc. called The Final Year about the Obama White House, so...

Matthew 29:25
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Greg Barker 29:26
But I had this, yeah, it's like, and I've known people going into that, who'd been in government and then left. And they always talk different when they're in government. So, I made a decision just very early on; we were going to stop filming the day that these guys left office. I didn't want the spin. You know, it's like, and I want to, because everyone sort of spins their past. It's like, let's capture somebody in the moment. And that informed me in my thinking about John; I was like, I don't really, I mean, I would love to see what he looks like now. I don't want to hear what he thought about back then because he's just gonna twist it because we all do that. So, I'd rather have the immediate moment.

Matthew 30:03
I think that's a very interesting point. And, I think, quite a insightful one. I mean, looking at this film in a different way, I mean, timing is obviously impeccable - obviously, you had an idea about the 20th anniversary that's always been out there - but, and we had John Walker Lindh's release a few years ago. But, as you've already, you kind of alluded to, is a story that had been, I guess, an idea had been running around in your head for a little while. But, you could have done various different subjects looking at 20 years on and I know you have looked at other elements to this, but, I mean, I think you've kind of alluded to it already, but what really drew you to this story now; now is the time to tell it, or was it, as you say, it was part of because you got this access to the...

Greg Barker 30:56
Yeah, I mean, now is almost, you know, the four and a half years ago, when we decided to start making it, maybe more than that. So, it's kind of like, it wasn't like, oh, us getting this thing for the 20th anniversary. It was just like, here's a story that we wanted to - I want to tell, and the exec. at Showtime, who commissioned it, Vinnie Malhotra, also was particularly interested in the story and we'd worked together before, so we're just like, okay, maybe let's look at this. So, the timing, you know, was really just, this is when we finished the film, and we decided, okay, let's release it around the 20th anniversary of 9/11. Of course, we had no idea that Afghanistan would implode and that John Walker Lindh ended up fighting for the winning side in the end. The Taliban are still in control.

Matthew 31:43
I know. I mean, did you have any clue? I mean, because you, you're gonna be modest about this. But you've done a lot of films related to this region, and to this topic, looking at the 20 year War on Terror. Did you have any clue that the - you didn't have a clue maybe that the US would be withdrawing in August of 2021, but, you know, could you see this day coming? You know, this is where...

Greg Barker 32:09
Afghanistan?

Matthew 32:10
Yeah.

Greg Barker 32:10
I mean, without... yeah, you could, I mean, we, I mean, yes. I mean, I think I've been there like four times, not in a while, but I remember being there in 2007. And everyone was talking about the Taliban coming back: everyone, you know, and it was held off for a while. But you could see that it was, for lots of reasons, the mission, the US mission was misguided, the government was corrupt, the population in the rural areas was tired of war. Lots of other things. So, yeah, you could kind of see that it was - that this was the end game. And I think a lot of US officials, military, intelligence, political could all see the state coming, too, and they just didn't really want to admit it. So, yeah. There's lots to unpack there. But, yeah, I think - I hope, you know, there's a - there should be a room to really kind of figure out what went wrong and the mistakes that were made and the mistaken priorities, I think is the way I would describe it, because they missed the origin of what happened, and what went wrong, and trace again, not through the John Walker Lindh film, but, like, through the early wave of the military operation in Afghanistan, you can see the stage being set for how this all would play out.

Matthew 33:36
And do you see this as the end of the War on Terror? Is it so nice that they get these little bookends? You've got, 9/11, Afghanistan invasion, and then now the withdrawal? And is that an end, or do you see we're still living with these legacies today? And we'll continue to do so.

Greg Barker 33:54
Well, I think we're so, I mean, the War on Terror was like, this completely absurd term. What does that mean?

Matthew 33:59
Well, exactly.

Greg Barker 33:59
Yeah. But I think, yeah, I mean, it is a convenient way of framing this era. I think, you know, there will be other terrorist attacks. They will be shocking, but I think, you know, it's, yeah, who knows, I don't want to predict the future. But definitely, it's an era that is receding into the background.

Matthew 34:26
And are you putting it off to the side now, in terms of what you're working on? I mean, you've done a few films.

Greg Barker 34:34
Yes! This specific thing, and you know, the kind of, the trajectory of 9/11, and how it's affected us. Yeah, I mean, I'm still interested in geopolitics and all that but I think I've hopefully done with that, this particular story.

Matthew 34:53
Indeed. I mean, going back to some of your other work, I mean, you've already mentioned The Last Year. Obviously, you had Manhunt about finding Osama, you know, finding bin Laden. I mean, how do you gain such - I mean, you can even focus on any of your films, but, like, how do you gain such access to high profile subjects? That must be - I mean, that's, you know, to get the - I mean, I just find it amazing. You get the national security advisors to say in the Obama White House to say, yeah, come on in; film us for a year. How does that happen?

Greg Barker 35:30
I don't know. I really don't know. I think, I don't know. I mean, I've always felt interested and comfortable in that world, and fascinated by it. And intrigued by how power changes and affects people. And I guess, you know, when I was just starting out after college, I worked in DC for C-Span for Brian Lamb. And...

Matthew 36:01
Really?!

Greg Barker 36:01
Yeah, and did a lot of interviews, and set up a lot of his interviews, and met a lot of people, met a lot of people, you know, senators, you know, all sorts of people in DC so it kind of demystified that world for me. And Brian taught me to ask very simple questions and did not, like, and not be kind of thrown by positions of power. And so, I kind of saw a little bit of it up close, and I don't know, and I just - over time, I mean, I knew some people who ended up going into government and saw their kind of transition and was intrigued by it all. I don't know, it was just was something I was drawn to. And when I started doing documentaries, I found that it was a subject I was comfortable with. And also, I was able to kind of talk to people in those positions and get them to hopefully open up and, yeah, without kind of being a part of it. I don't consider myself a part of a national security operation or the establishment at all, but I kind of empathize with people in those jobs. And I always ask myself, like, what would I have done if I was, in those moments. I had a really interesting experience, I did a project for Frontline about the genocide in Rwanda, which began as just like a trip, I took to Rwanda with them, with a friend of mine from the region. And then - but I ended up sort of, through that sort of meeting a lot of people who are in key decision making positions in Washington and the UN, like, Secretary of State, advisors, and all that, and who kind of totally failed and were haunted by their decisions during the genocide, and I realized while talking to them, I thought, I can understand all of their chain of thought, like why they decided it was in America's interest to do nothing while a million people are killed in three months. And that was kind of horrifying to me. I was like, I had this moment where I thought I'm interested in that process that allows, you know, decent rational people to make horrendous choices. And then they're haunted by them, in a way that really kind of, yeah, they can't ever let it go in their mind. And I just thought that was a human, there's human stories in that I wanted to keep unpacking. And that's kind of, like, informed how I approach a lot of these, like, how do you talk to somebody who was behind the torture program in the CIA, you know, they're living with that all the time. Some of them think they were right, some of them think they were wrong and are haunted by it, but it's front and center in their own psyche. And I find that interesting. Much more interesting than just kind of, like, attacking it from the outside. I'd rather understand it from the inside out.

Matthew 38:04
Well, exactly. And you get in on the inside, and it would be very easy for these people to say no, wouldn't it. I mean, they could just say, Why let a film crew come in? I mean, that's an uncontrolled environment, in a way, because, you know, if it's your typical CNN or Fox News or whoever it is, that comes in to do an interview, that's kind of set, you know the parameters and where it's gonna go. To be basically the fly-on-the-wall sort of behind, you know, behind-the-scenes sort of crew. I mean, it would be - I'm almost kind of asking from a personal standpoint because I have some, you know, actually I'm aware of a project where I too, have been surprised by some politicians saying. Yes, to people following them around with a camera, you know, and it's, I do wonder if it's - is it because people in these positions are thinking already about their legacy, or their justifications or what it is that - why they would say, you know...

Greg Barker 39:57
Well, it can be, it can be. Also, people want to tell their stories it can be about legacy. But I think the - so, if all they care about is legacy, then - and that's all that's coming across in the in the footage...

Matthew 40:12
It's not going to be interesting.

Greg Barker 40:13
... it won't work. So, they have to then break through. And that's the job of the filmmaker in the moment is just like to get past that. And, you know, in the case of The Final Year, I mean, there was direct conversations where I had with people at the White House was like, this is not good enough. Like, you know, I'm just getting, it just sounds like you're spinning or you're like - it's not real enough. And enough of them were smart enough to think, Oh, yeah. But I know other people trying to film inside this administration who are hitting all sorts of brick walls. And so it's, you know, it's - you have to find just both the right approach and also the willingness of people in those positions to take a bit of a risk. And often that's because people are incredibly risk averse. The way bureaucracies work. So, you know, it doesn't always work out. But it's often just luck.

Matthew 41:11
I mean, and when were you in DC?

Greg Barker 41:13
When? I was there in the - I was there, I went to college at George Washington. I lived in DC up until the early 90s.

Matthew 41:24
Okay, I was there through early 90s to the late 90s. And I was back there a few weeks ago, which, in many ways, it hasn't changed.

Greg Barker 41:37
No, DC does not change. This is why I left [laughter].

Matthew 41:41
Which brings us back, I mean, the thing that struck me was that because you've got the scene in the film, where John Wray says, I know what it's like to want to escape from your hometown. And he was born in Washington, DC. And, you know, and, I mean, I know we say suburbs of San Francisco, but John Walker Lindh keeps saying he's from Northwest DC, when he gets interviewed, you know, Where are you from? You know, I thought it was very interesting these two different individuals. Both trying to escape Washington, DC. Like my wife did as well. So, I'm also aware that, well, we've got a little bit more time. I'm aware you have a Chelsea kick-off that you want to catch against Malmo. What's next for you? Has White Coat Rebels has also come out, is that already been released, or is that...?

Greg Barker 42:37
It's not been released yet. They're doing a deal at the moment. So, it'll come out sometime later this year or next year. I'm honestly, I'm kind of focusing mostly on narrative at the moment. I did a feature for Netflix. And that's what I'm really doing. I did that, and then I had three documentaries that I had committed to before I did that. So, John - Detainee, was one of them, like Rebels. So, I love docs. But, I feel like the documentary, I think docs have become much more commercialized, which is great. There's a lot of work. But, I think the subject matters that people are willing to tackle, at least, you know, broadcasters, most broadcasters and streamers, are willing to tackle are becoming less adventurous. So, you know, I'm also just interested in getting to authentic emotions. And I think, for me at the moment, at this point in my career, I'm more interested in unpacking those through narrative, through fiction, but drawn from real life.

Matthew 43:41
I think that's very interesting. I mean, without burning any bridges, is it - I mean, in terms of the broadcasters, people who are commissioning things, you think is - in what ways are they just really much more commercially focused, so they've - what do they do their focus groups and know what subjects they think will and won't work? And so that determines what they do and don't commission? Is that kind of what we're getting to?

Greg Barker 44:07
In broad strokes? Probably, yes. You know, I think, yeah, you know, people talk about a golden age of documentaries. I think we just lived through it. I think there's a lot of work. And, you know, you can get 20 million dollars for a Billie Eilish documentary, which is great. But, I'm not interested in making that movie. That's not why I got into documentaries. And so, you know, but if you're looking for eyeballs looking for the big payout, looking for something that will appeal to the broader Academy and get you an award, those are the kind of - this as a mindset that's driving a lot of this stuff. This is what gets made. And I think the - you look at what, like, say Sheila Nevins did at HBO. HBO was in a particular moment where - that company has changed now, and for lots of, you know, economic reasons - but there was a moment where, and what Netflix was doing early on, CNN films, a lot of this stuff was actually, you know, really sort of transformative and saved this, you know, art form that had been, kind of, you know, not really having much impact and suddenly giving it, you know, a whole new lease of life. And there's an audience for it. But, I think it's shifting now. I'm not sure if any of the films I've made in the last 12-13 years would be commissioned today.

Matthew 44:20
It's interesting. Yeah.

Greg Barker 45:37
Yeah. I mean, we were in a moment in time, where, because of the aftermath of 9/11, there was a hunger for this stuff. So, you know, that's part of it. But, I think, now things have just shifted, and it's much more commercial and market driven, and, which is, you know, it is what it is, I'm not complaining, but it is the reality, but I'm just personally interested in, at the same time looking at these kinds of stories from a different perspective. And I'm sort of tired of people hiding their emotions, and I'd rather - you can control them more in fiction. So, I think it's just more satisfying for me at this moment in time.

Matthew 46:22
It's amazing how that's - well, so, we can put you, Greg Barker, on the record that the golden age of documentaries is come to an end, is...

Greg Barker 46:30
I would say that, yes. Not that anybody cares what I would say but, yes, I think it's over [laughter].

Matthew 46:36
And I have to say as a podcast, the aforementioned Billie Eilish documentary we have featured that we did interview...

Greg Barker 46:45
RJ did a great job. Amazing.

Matthew 46:49
He did an amazing job. And it's our most popular episode ever. And you know, we've benefited from it. But, yes, you know, know where you're coming from. I mean, I find this interesting, because I think what you've said probably, I don't know how many years ago, but not all that long ago, people would have said to get all those authentic, that authenticity you're talking about you needed to go to docs to get it. But now it's completely flipped in terms of where you're seeing things that to still capture that authenticity and emotions that many of us look for in film, it's back to narrative.

Greg Barker 47:26
For me, at least. I mean, you know, unless you have amazing, sort of like... take Billie Eilish. They're filming all that stuff. The movie, what he got with her contemporary stuff is really fantastic. He was totally inside her world and had trust. But all of that was made possible, I think, because of the footage that they had already shot. So, you know, somebody on her team went to somebody and said, we have all this great footage, and we want to package it to a documentary. That's how that thing would happen. So, there's a - with all respect to everybody involved - there's a commercial imperative, in the interest of the artist to tell that story. And, you know, that is not the kind of, there was no imperative from John Walker Lindh to get this thing out. It's a different approach. But I think it's also just, it's very commercial. And it's all great. I'm not disparaging that...

Matthew 48:20
Yeah, I understand.

Greg Barker 48:21
I'm glad but it's not - it's shifted. And what people want to make and what people want to see, which is - things go in waves and you have to just recognize that the wave has - one certain wave crested and we're in a different wave now.

Matthew 48:39
Okay. All right. Well, we are starting to come up to the end of our time. The most biting question of the session, the episode: Why Chelsea?? Why do you have to pick Chelsea as your team?

Greg Barker 48:55
I'll tell you why. Because (a) my producing, my doc. producing partner, John Battsek, is a lifelong Chelsea fan. But my son - so, I lived in London for years, 18 years, and I really didn't pay any attention to football, went a couple matches, but didn't really care. But, when we moved to the States, my son was four, born in London, and he started getting interested in soccer. And he wanted to figure out what team to support and he looked at a map of where he was born, which was St. Thomas' hospital and he - and you're not going to like this because you're a Crystal Palace, but he looked at a map and he's like, what's closest, and he measured to the stadiums. And Crystal Palace was a little bit closer, but he's like, I don't want to be a Crystal Palace fan. So, then he looked at the next one was Chelsea, so, he was like okay, I want be a Chelsea fan. And that's what happened. So, now I'm, as people know me will say I'm pretty obsessed by it. And you know, it's fun. So, it's the only sport that I follow. Living back in the States now I don't really follow US sports, but I do follow Premier League football pretty closely.

Matthew 49:55
Well, I think it's a great season and Chelsea's got a great team, I'll begrudgingly admit. I'm glad for my third son that we didn't go that route because he was born in Watford, and the hospital's, literally, bang, right next door to Vicarage Road Stadium, you know! [laughter]

Greg Barker 50:14
Yeah!

Matthew 50:16
But then we moved to south London, it was the same thing. I've got this American Dad as you know in England, your allegiances are passed down through the generations usually. And who do we support and for whatever reason, I had taken a disliking to Chelsea so I said, Well, you know what, the closest team at that point, they weren't even in the Premier League, yet. So, I took them to a riveting Crystal Palace-Blackpool match in the Championship. And my son's been hooked ever since for - and I feel bad for him too, because it's gonna be lifelong. A life full of misery. But, Greg, thank you. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. Now, I know you need to go take a little bit of a break. Sit down. I don't know where you're based. Maybe it's a little too early to open up a can.

Greg Barker 51:08
It's LA. So, it's 11:55, so probably a little too early. I'll make another coffee.

Matthew 51:13
Maybe at halftime. But enjoy the match. It's been a pleasure having you on. Just to remind our listeners. It's Greg Barker, the director of Detainee 001. If you haven't seen it yet. It's been released on Showtime. That was in September, and you can find it on various digital platforms. So, Greg, thanks so much. It's been a pleasure having you on and hopefully we can have you on again, even though you're only doing narratives now.

Greg Barker 51:39
Thank you, Matthew, really enjoyed it.

Matthew 51:40
All right. We'll let you sign off. I've got some other stuff to go through. But you don't need to be around for that. So, thanks again.

Greg Barker 51:45
Okay.

Matthew 51:46
All right. Take care. See you.

Greg Barker 51:46
Thank you. It was fun. Take care. Alright. Bye bye.

Matthew 51:48
Alright. Enjoy it. Thank you. So, once again, a big thank you to Greg Barker for coming on to Factual America for this podcast episode. Before saying thanks to others, I just want to alert you to an exciting new collaboration we will be announcing in the coming weeks with a leading film magazine. So, please watch this space for more details on that. I do want to give a shout out to Sam and Joe at Innersound Audio in Escrick, England, which is just outside of York. A big thanks as always to Nevena Paunovic, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures who ensures we continue getting such great guests like Greg on to the show. Finally, a big thanks to our listeners. As always, we love to hear from you. So, please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas. Whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. And please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family. wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.

Factual America Outro 52:48
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures, specializing in documentaries, television, and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @alamopictures, be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films, and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk.

Detainee 001: 'The American Taliban' John Walker Lindh

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Detainee 001: 'The American Taliban' John Walker Lindh

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