In the Court of the Crimson King: King Crimson at 50
Legendary rock band King Crimson has been inspiring generations of musicians for over 50 years. After starting off with great success in London in 1969 , the band effectively split up the same year, which then started a process of constant fragmentation and reinvention that has continued for 52 years.
Documentary film In the Court of the Crimson King, which premiered at this year's SXSW festival, captures life on the road with King Crimson. The group's legendary cult following has long waited for a doc, but you do not have to be a fan of the band to appreciate the film, which still awaits wider release. If you’re a fan of rock documentaries then this is surely something to add to your watchlist! Rather than being a straightforward documentary, the director and producer made this into a film that’s well, an experience in itself.
The acclaimed director, broadcaster and co-producer Toby Amies joins us to discuss the film, the essence of being in a rock band, the philosophy of music and the meaning of life.
"As a filmmaker, I’m interested in human condition, and King Crimson matter as a band because they speak to human condition." - Toby Amies
Time Stamps:
00:00 - The trailer for In the Court of the Crimson King.
03:11 - When the film will be widely released.
06:23 - Who King Crimson are, what they stand for and what makes them special.
12:04 - How Toby became involved with the project despite knowing little about the band.
16:15 - Toby’s passion for music and the challenges of making a film about top-class musicians.
23:34 - The challenges of making a documentary with limited access to your subjects.
29:05 - The benefits of filming without a crew and the power of post-production.
36:28 - The failures of English punk and how punk rock King Crimson are.
39:40 - How the band has remained successful in recent years.
43:40 - How Robert Fripp feels about the final version of the film.
48:40 - The pressure of making a film about a subject that has so many dedicated fans.
1:01:45 - What’s next for Toby Amies and his hope for future projects
Resources:
In the Court of the Crimson King (2022)
Sherman’s March (1985)
The Man Whose Mind Exploded (2012)
Alternative Nation (1992-)
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Get In the Court of the Crimson King Blu Ray here
Connect with Toby Amies:
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 96: In the Court of the Crimson King: King Crimson at 50
Toby Amies 00:00
Hello, my name is Toby Amies, and I am a multiple award losing filmmaker from the UK.
Speaker 1 00:21
It is the dream band viewed from outside. It's the band you could do anything you wanted to, in it.
Speaker 2 00:28
Tell him he's talking a loada shite.
Speaker 3 00:34
This is the first King Crimson where there's not at least one member in the band that actively resents my presence, which is astonishing.
Speaker 4 00:46
You could trust a horse, you could trust a dog, but you could never trust a fucking guitar player.
Speaker 5 00:50
I love you, Robert; I'm sorry, I broke your heart, I'm sorry.
Speaker 6 00:53
That makes me livid.
Speaker 7 00:57
Some of us went through hell.
Speaker 8 00:59
It was you, too.
Speaker 9 00:59
I can't take this.
Speaker 10 01:01
At one point I just walked out.
Speaker 11 01:03
When I came back from making some of that music, my hair had fallen out.
Speaker 12 01:06
How can I put this? I don't have the problem. The problems lie elsewhere.
Speaker 13 01:17
The original line-up of King Crimson contained a bunch of [beep] and chief amongst those [beep] was [guitar and drum music].
Speaker 14 01:31
I can't be the only sane man in this asylum.
Matthew 01:46
This is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo Pictures, an Austin and London based production company making documentaries about America for international audiences. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. This week it is my extreme pleasure to welcome acclaimed filmmaker and broadcaster, Toby Amies, director and co-producer of In The Court of the Crimson King. The film captures life on the road with King Crimson, the influential rock band that has been inspiring generations of musicians for over 50 years. While the documentary will be a real treat for the band's legendary cult following, you don't have to be a fan to appreciate what Toby has captured with his film. Stay tuned as we discuss King Crimson, the essence of being in a rock band, the philosophy of music, and the meaning of life. Toby, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?
Toby Amies 02:41
Generally speaking, good.
Matthew 02:43
Good.
Toby Amies 02:44
Spring in the UK. So, everything's cheered up a little.
Matthew 02:50
Yeah, I think so; being based in the UK, as well, I can attest to that. The film we're going to be discussing is In the Court of the Crimson King: King Crimson at 50. Premiered at South by. I think it's been at a few other festivals. When is it going to get a wider release? Don't know?
Toby Amies 03:10
Well, we're sort of working that out at the moment, to be honest, you know. I'd like it to get out to the widest audience possible as effectively as possible, and we're seeing what the best way of doing that at the moment is. There is a very large demand for that film, because, you know, one of the things the film documents is the very particular, almost unique, relationship that band have with their fans.
Matthew 03:47
So, I've had the fortune, great fortune, of being able to see it. Most our listeners and viewers will not have seen it yet. But will definitely be on the lookout for it because I highly recommend it. Maybe you can now take that a little further, what is In the Court of the Crimson King all about? If you can give us a synopsis? If that's possible?
Toby Amies 04:12
Well, I don't like to sort of make up the audience's mind for them. You know, I think that film is a collaborative medium, and, it starts at an almost atomic level with film, you know, that you require the audience to fill in the gap between frame one and frame two in order to create movement. And I think that's a really good principle from which to operate as a filmmaker, which is, you know - just what Lubitsch said, isn't it? It's like two plus two - you tell them two plus two equals four, you lose them, but if you let them work out that it's four then you've got them, you know? So...
Matthew 04:52
So, a good fit for this band, I think.
Toby Amies 05:56
Yeah, yeah. I suppose that, like, initially Robert wanted to - Robert Fripp wanted to make the film, he said, to better understand the nature of King Crimson. And, for me, as a filmmaker, I'm interested in the human condition. So, you know, I said to people that as far as I was concerned it's an examination of the human condition using King Crimson as the medium. But I think King Crimson matter as a band because they speak directly to the human condition. So, it all came in together quite nicely, I think. I'll tell you what it isn't, which is probably easier, is that it's not a Wikipedia article with a bunch of old farts talking about the olden days. Because that film's easy to make and is boring; it's not going to tell you anything you can't already find out on the internet or reading Sid Smith's' biography of the band.
Matthew 06:04
So, it's all very interesting. So, I know the demographics of our listeners. Maybe you give us a little introduction. I agree with you, but don't tell us what the film's about, or what it isn't about, necessarily, but maybe a little perspective on King Crimson. Because there might be a decent number of listeners who are not that well aware of them.
Toby Amies 06:22
No, they're a very unusual band. And Robert Fripp the sort of only consistent member of the band - or constant founder member of the band - but he's very uncomfortable, generally speaking, referring himself as the person who started it, or the band leader. He refers to King Crimson as a way of doing things not as a band; it's a sort of approach to the creative process. But they started off in 1969 in London, and their first album, In the Court of the Crimson King, was inordinately successful. But the band effectively split up in the same year with two of the founder members, Michael Giles and Ian McDonald, both of whom appear in the film, leaving. And, as we say, in the opening of the film, that started a process of fragmentation and reinvention that's continued for 52 years. So, they're not one of those bands where the sort of background is so fractious that they're consistently having to bring in new members to keep on bashing out the old hits, as you find with - you know, there are lots of bands out there where they're still fighting about who owns the actual name and who's an original member. It's not one of those situations. It's always King Crimson. Nevertheless, as another ex-member, Bill Bruford, says in the film, you know, several times it threw away its entire past repertoire and created something new. So, I suppose, that they're referred to as a prog rock band, which raises the hackles of almost everybody in the band when they're referred to that way. But I think it's important to make this distinction between prog rock, which becomes, if you'll pardon the pun, a genre sort of kept in aspect. It's sort of preserved. And then there's this notion of what progressive is, and obviously, there's this idea of forward movement and change and evolution, implicit in that. And that, I think, is something that King Crimson has done very well. The tours that I followed them on, they were playing a lot of old material, but - and there were a lot of old men on stage, you know, to be frank, a lot of them are getting on. Nevertheless, they've got three drummers at the front of the stage, and so the experience of going to see King Crimson, even in somewhere as hallowed as the Royal Albert Hall, you know, you're pummeled by them. It's like, I often say it's like having one of those - seeing King Crimson live is like having one of those deep tissue massages, you know, that you're, like, you're not entirely comfortable, and sometimes it can be so painful that you're like, I'm not sure this is good for me. But you're in the hands, literally, of a master, then you are sort of moved through in such a way both the massage and - I'm extending the metaphor a little too far now, but you feel better at the end of it. But you're not necessarily totally sure why. So, it's a very complex set of ideas placed into rock music, not rock and roll music, though, crucially, because they sort of weren't - one of the sort of conceptual decisions, I understand that they made early on, was not to be influenced by the blues. Whereas, a lot of other bands were influenced by the blues at the time that they started up, most famously the Stones and The Beatles, obviously, but they're more influenced by, like, Bartok, you know; so, this is sort of classical element to it. Robert described them as being akin to a rock and roll orchestra, which is probably closest to the truth. Seeing them live is as powerful, oftentimes, and as noisy as going to see a metal show. But there's something else going on there, which is, maybe it's - I'm not sure if you could say it's more sophisticated, perhaps more infernal, even than the death metal show. There was a point where, when I was on tour with them, that we kept on bumping into Slayer, in hotel rooms. I just think it would actually be really appropriate to have a double bill of Slayer and King Crimson, ideally, with the two bands swapping members, sort of halfway through.
Matthew 11:02
But Slayer didn't make it into the doc.
Toby Amies 11:05
No, they didn't Well, one of the things that I wanted to avoid for the documentary as well was having to cut in people who were, again, telling you what to think, you know sort of I didn't want to have, like, a bunch of talking heads - to say nothing of the fact that with around, no one was entirely sure of the exact number, eighteen members to the band in total. There was three, you know, I had to limit - there were people who were in the band who are not in the film at all, just because there's a limit to how many characters you can ask an audience to sort of see before it all gets confusing, and no one really gets the time to say anything worthwhile.
Matthew 11:48
So, were you a fan before you made this film? I mean, I'm not asking you whether you're fan now or whatever, but were you? I mean, How did this happen - this documentary?
Toby Amies 12:00
Which question would you let me answer?
Matthew 12:01
Well, yeah, that's a good point. How well did you know King Crimson going in?
Toby Amies 12:06
I didn’t know them at all. I'm 54, which means that I was, sort of, just a bit too young to sort of properly engage in punk when it was happening in the UK, but young enough, or, sort of, aware enough to be listening to the radio and hearing people like John Lydon telling us that the previous generation of musicians were all dinosaurs, you know, and they should be taken to the guillotine, effectively, although ironically, one of his favorite bands is Van der Graaf Generator, who are, you know, a prog band. But so, a lot of that teenage arrogance that stuck with me for a long time, so I wouldn't listen to these sort of dinosaurs, effectively. So, I didn't really know anything about them. But I did know a fair bit of Robert's work in other areas, because, you know, notably, you know, he worked with Brian Eno and made those extraordinary records, plus his work with David Bowie and stuff. For people who don't know, he played on Heroes. And so, I was aware of his work from that side of things. But how the film came about was, because Robert and his wife, Toyah, live in the same market town in the Vale of Evesham, in Worcestershire that I'm from, and so, I've met them socially, because my parents and they lived on the same street. And as a result, I'd had some interesting conversations with Robert and I was making a documentary for Radio Four about the process of archiving yourself. It was just at the sort of point at which social media was really exploding, and there was a sort of saturation level for mobile phones that meant that we were all in a process of archiving ourselves without really considering it. And Robert was somebody who I was aware was in the process of constructing his own archive with a great degree of self-awareness. So, we worked together on that. And then, I'd sent him my first feature doc, The Man Whose Mind Exploded, which he was very fond of. And I had gone over for drinks before Christmas, I think in 2017, and was telling him how I'd been contacted by somebody via Instagram saying, You don't know me, but me and some friends have started this sort of sex cult based on the notion of cosmic fuck, which is a tattoo that the main character in my first documentary had on him. And there's a sort of comic moment of light relief where the tattoo is mentioned in the film. And these people in San Francisco or Oakland, had expanded on this notion. And had started tattooing themselves, and had this sort of like weird, well, not weird, but, like, this little grouping based on this notion. And I was saying to Robert, how nice and exciting it was, to make a work of art, and for it to be interpreted in ways that you could never have conceived of. You know, once you've made it and put it out there, it becomes something for other people. And that sort of touches on what I was saying earlier that, like, I'm not interested in making work that sort of has a particular direct point-of-view. I mean, obviously, my work is subjective, but I'm not sort of saying to the audience, this is what you've got to believe, or take away from this. It's, like, here's what I understand the facts of the matter to be. It's up to you to fill in the gap between those two frames or whatever.
Matthew 16:05
And so, did you know what you're getting yourself into when you decided to do this documentary with King Crimson generally, but certainly with Robert?
Toby Amies 16:16
No. It's been inordinately complicated.
Matthew 16:22
He doesn't suffer fools lightly, does he?
Toby Amies 16:25
No, no, he doesn't. And I used to work for MTV as a, well, as a producer, but also as a, you know, on camera video jock. And, you know, I love cinema. And that's what I make. But I really love music, you know. I've had some goes at making it, but I'm not, you know, by any means a natural. And I'm too old, and too stubborn, to sort of learn how to play things properly now. So, I've been around music all my life. I mean, everybody's been around music all their life, haven't they, but I mean, it's sort of been a great passion of mine. I studied at university, I, culturally speaking, I, you know, been a DJ for 36 years, or something, and it's a huge part of my life. So...
Matthew 17:23
Well, I mean, did you know what you're getting yourself into?
Toby Amies 17:25
Oh yeah, did I know - so, this sort of working at MTV, I, you know, I would always be reeled out for the difficult interviews. And so, oftentimes, I would end up interviewing people who were sick and tired of being asked stupid questions. And as soon as they saw the little logo on the microphone, they were like, Oh, God, here we go again, you know, so, I'm sort of, I have a relatively thick skin, and I'm used to difficult circumstances, but I also do the work, generally speaking, to make sure that, you know, so that I have a - it's not even a question of knowing what I'm talking about, but I try and approach my subjects with a sufficient amount of - a mix of respect and skepticism. You know, because it's not my - again, it's not my job to impose a point-of-view on anybody, but at the same time, I do think it's my job to act as a medium between that person, their ideas, and audience, but I have a lot of sympathy for musicians, like Robert, and this refers directly to our relationship, who, you know, they put the inner depths of their soul, they allow their music to speak for that part of themselves. And they've put it out there and so understandably, sometimes, you know, they're a little bit hostile to picking it apart, or trying to speak about it, when it's there, you know, the music is there, and one of the advantages of making a documentary about music, as opposed to writing about it, of course, is you can include the music and you can include a - something which is more than an analogy, of the experience of that music. It's not quite the same as seeing a band live, obviously, but you can introduce that element. These are artists at the absolute top of their game, and, you know, they're all, you could say that they're all in the Top Ten, probably, of what they do and some of them are Top Five and, you know, a couple of them, maybe, even the sort of number one at what they do in the world. So, sort of it was inordinately frustrating at times being told that I wasn't able to film when I'd been commissioned to make a film about this band. And members of this band were telling me I couldn't film, and I don't know if you've seen the sort of the making of documentary I made of this, it's like two minutes long.
Matthew 20:26
No, I haven't, but I'll be keen to see it.
Toby Amies 20:29
I'll send it to you. It may be fun for you to use in the, in this point, because it is sort of analogous to my experience of making the film to some degree. My point being, though, is that if you're making incredible music, that's really, really complicated, and requires you to be on top of your game offstage as well as on, I am very understanding of why a documentary maker might be told to fuck off on occasion!
Matthew 21:03
Which I can tell you does happen in the film, and on that - yeah, go ahead. Actually, if you don't mind, hold that thought. We're gonna give our listeners an early break here. And then we're gonna dive right back into that whole relationship, which is amazingly captured I think. It's one of the best examples - you know, great docs are about much more than their immediate subject, and this whole director-subject relationship that you capture, that's an element of this, is one of the many interesting stories that are told by this doc. So, we'll be right back with Toby Amies, director, and, excuse me, co-producer of In the court of the Crimson King: King Crimson at 50, premiered at South by, and we're all eagerly waiting for its wider release.
Factual America midroll 21:55
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Matthew 22:23
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with acclaimed filmmaker Toby Amies, director and co-producer of In the Court of the Crimson King, premiered at South by, and we're waiting for its wider release. We were talking about your relationship and your sympathies for these musicians, especially these musicians that are at the top of their game, and probably some of the best musicians, if not the best musicians, in their respective fields. The question I've got for you is, how does this doc get made? And I literally mean that, and I think that does follow from this, because, you know, there's this great scene where you're talking to one of the band members and saying, you know, do you feel like you're auditioning or something, and, I forget exactly his answer, but...
Toby Amies 23:14
It's part of a joke but it's good.
Matthew 23:16
Yeah, it's good. It's good. It's, you know, essentially, your role - I mean, I get the sense that it was a day-to-day thing, whether the project was going to make it to the next day and your part in that project. Is that fair enough to say?
Toby Amies 23:33
Yeah, I mean, a documentary sort of lives or dies really on the access you have. But, also, it lives and dies in terms of how you react to the access that you have. So, if you're not getting the access you need, then I think it's valid, or sometimes it's useful in the context of the film, to demonstrate that. My work is enormously influenced by Ross McElwee's Sherman's March, which is a film, which is ostensibly about one thing, General Sherman's March through the South, but it's actually about something else, which is this lonely man's search for love. And I think that there's something - I'm not, as I think I mentioned earlier, I don't really consider my work to be objective at all. But I think if you make your subjective approach apparent to the audience, then it allows them to understand the parameters of how this material is coming together. And it sort of allows you to set up a relationship of honesty with the audience, but also crucially, it allows them a bit further in. I read an interview with a famous photographer who was asked how he set up his shots, and he said, Well, I frame them up like I think they should be framed. And then I take another step forward. And that's kind of what I like to do with my films is sort of bring the audience as close to the subject as possible. I used to be a portrait photographer. And when I was doing that, I made a distinction between two types of portrait photography, one which was fashionable at the time, which is where a photographer turns up with a particular aesthetic that they have and a particular approach, and they take a photograph of their subject in that style, and it looks like a photograph by that photographer. But you don't really, in my opinion, learn that much about the subject. What I wanted to do was turn up, and because I used to photograph a lot of what Liz Hurley would call civilians, normal people, non-celebrities, and so on, I used to - every time I used to turn up for work, so I would hear somebody say, I hate having my picture taken, which is analogous to the experience to making the King Crimson film. And so, I would spend time making them comfortable, and crucially, making them feel that I was not there to exploit them. But I did want to get something out of them. And in order to get something out of people, I think you have to show that you're prepared to give them something back, you know, much like Hannibal Lecter and Clarice Starling. Quid pro quo. So, what I was taking a picture of, it, ultimately, is the relationship between the photographer and the subject. And if the audience can, for that photo, or that film, can identify with the photographer, then that allows them to enter into a relationship with the subject that's a little more intimate than you normally get. So, the idea is not to put me in my films, but it's to use enough of me that I become a portal through which the audience can get a sense of what it is to know somebody. And to do that requires not being too much of a dick, being sensitive to the wants and needs of other people, and, above all, just sort of being persistent, gently persistent, and not being a nuisance, necessarily, although, it's clear that I was, and slowly developing a relationship with people. And that is what ultimately you put on screen. And that is how you achieve a degree of intimacy in film, that, to me, is a good version of cinema. You know, that's how you get - because I, you know, my films generally are made up of moments, rather than they are sort of carefully structured plot wise, or whatever. I mean, obviously, that's part of the process. But it is a question of having these moments of what you can transmit as real life, you know, coming out on screen. And if the relationship is difficult, then that's also what comes across. And that's, you know, there's a fair amount of that in the film.
Matthew 28:17
Yeah, so, don't want to have to do spoiler alerts, so we won't go into - and people just need to see the film, but I think it's done very effectively, and is it fair enough to say, by doing that, you've - not that this was the point, but it seemed to me, the band became a little more used to you by the end of the filming, and therefore, you have some very poignant scenes throughout the film, and however, they're ordered, it doesn't really matter, but I mean, they obviously do open up to you; the relationships flips for a few of the characters, certainly, in terms of what they're willing to give and what they end up giving. And then that's the director-subject relationship to a tee, isn't it?
Toby Amies 29:08
Yeah. And it's very hard to do that with the crew. So, that's why, you know, parts of the film, you know, I winced. They're so badly shot, you know, there are parts where it's out of focus. There are parts where...
Matthew 29:23
Because you're self-shooting, right? You're doing it, you know, you're the one-man band.
Toby Amies 29:27
I mean, there was some live sequences where we had a full crew to film the band - excuse me for the coffee - but yeah, mostly it's self-shot and I said, if I made a decision with the camera that I use that it sort of it was just, it was sort of plug and play, and which meant that I was ready to go whenever something was happening. But it struggled in low light a lot and the autofocus struggled and so on, so I had to make serious compromises visually to get what I needed, but what I needed was much more important than it looking great. And I think filmmakers can get very caught up in the aesthetics of something. And for me it's, like, if it looks like hell, but it's having the impact on the audience that I want it to have, or it's affecting the audience, then I don't really mind.
Matthew 30:30
As you've already said, it's not a music doc. It's not trying to be. You don't want it to be a standard music doc...
Toby Amies 30:37
No, it's a documentary about the power of music. And it's a documentary about musicians. But, I mean, my ambitions for it were always more than that because I think that when I was making The Man Whose Mind Exploded, which is about a very wonderful, but unique individual, who is infuriating at times - maybe draw some parallel there - a painter friend of mine, Dolly Thompson, said to me, she said, You know, why don't you just let the subject be the thing that determines the shape of the film, you know, form following function in a way, and I think that King Crimson is inspirational for me in lots of ways. Partly because of its devotion to this notion of evolution. But also, it's sort of - they're not iconoclastic for the sake of it, but they are a band that will adapt to changing circumstances quite happily. That I found quite influential in how I put the film together, you know. I would look, if I was lost, I could look to the band for inspiration.
Matthew 32:08
And speaking about being inspired by the band. I mean, there's this - I think early on, you have this whole discussion with Robert about silence. And that plays - so, again, I don't want to - because there's some scenes here I don't want to give away - but silence, may sound odd to listeners, but silence plays a big part in this film.
Toby Amies 32:32
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's - I can never remember the proper aphorism. So, I'll probably get it wrong. But I think it's, what, music is the cup that holds the wine of silence? Or it might be the silence is the cup that holds the wine of music...
Matthew 32:50
Either way.
Toby Amies 32:50
Yeah, but I mean, it's also like, there's that, do you know that - there's a fantastic drawing technique, where if you have to draw, say, like, the corner of the kitchen, which is quite complicated, and it's quite complicated in terms of the organization of space and lines, and so on, that if you can, if you can sort of force your brain not to draw the things, but to draw the gaps between the things, you actually find that the picture comes out sort of weirdly accurate. If nobody has tried it, it's a really exciting way of drawing because it sort of - the picture comes out of nowhere, because you're not actually focusing on the things. And I think that maybe to some degree - I mean, I'm very wary of paraphrasing Robert, or trying to explain his ideas; I think it's much better to watch the film more or listen to him to try and see that, but I think that's, to some degree, the role that silence plays there, is that it's by focusing on the gaps between things, the things themselves, your relationship with them changes, and perhaps it becomes a little bit more profound. There was a bit when we were mixing the film where Robert refers directly to silence and I said to the sound editor, Take everything out now, everything, and both he and the manager who was with me in the edit were, like, Mate, I don't think [inaudible] just completely dry, nothing. It's a tiny section. It's like 10 seconds long, but it's magnificently uncomfortable. But it's just so great. That, like, you're - I was gonna say forcing, but I'm gonna say encouraging the audience to experience silence in the cinema in a way that we're just completely unused to. And it's really weird is that to have just this little section where there's nothing, you know, you've got a picture to look at but there's nothing else to sort of distract you or whatever. And obviously, you know, again, without doing a spoiler alert, that it prefigures something very strange and wonderful that happens later on in the film. But - yeah, there's a magnificent perversity as well in terms of, like, making a film about a band, and the first thing you start talking about: the absence of music.
Matthew 35:43
It kind of sets the stage though, doesn't it?
Toby Amies 35:45
Yeah. And it also tells you that this is a band who approach music in a way that is highly unusual. And again, that's not necessarily consciously iconoclastic, but they do things their own way. And what I think is just brilliant about King Crimson is that they've been doing their thing - things their own way for over 50 years, and they've made a success of it. And they don't appear to have - I mean, as the film documents, there's no shortage of sort of grumbling in the background. But they've not really fucked anybody over in the way that the music business normally fucks people over and, you know, the sort of, one of the things that's really been great for me in making this film is, like, the 14 year old snotty punk, going, Dinosaurs, not interesting, whatever, they're one of the most punk rock bands that I've ever come across, you know, because they do it themselves, you know; they've made themselves financially secure and successful without exploiting people. Again, there is some grumbling in the background from ex-members, but I think that if you're going to offer a critique of how things are done, your critique is much, much more effective if you provide a workable alternative. And, you know, that's something that I think English punk really failed on. It's sort of its chaos model was predicated on the notion that it still had to get - I'm talking about the Pistols here, but still had to get another advance from EMI and then another advance from Virgin and stuff, whereas the real punk rock thing is to do what Ian MacKaye of Dischord and Fugazi did or something which is where you set up your own record label and don't screw anybody over in the process, and provide a workable alternative. That's one of my hobby horses. Can you tell?
Matthew 37:49
Yeah. Well, and, you know, I'm thankful. That's like the second, at least the second, maybe the third Fugazi reference we've gotten in a podcast, I'm very happy about that. As someone - I'm the same age as you, actually, and so King Crimson for me was always one of these bands I heard of that you were supposed to like, because they were, you know, what's the old joke - well, they did better than this, but sold 1000 albums, but everyone who bought those albums started a band or whatever, you know, kind of thing, you know. But then I did the thing someone like me does: get on Google, just get on YouTube and you've got some of the performances, and I don't know how well they're captured, but some of the stuff that would have corresponded to when you're filming, and I was blown away. I was absolutely, you know, with not just the three drum sets in the front, but it was - yeah, it's up there with, like, my favorite jazz. I mean, I was just very impressed by - it's not just the musicianship. I mean, they're just - because you can have virtuosos, and this isn't to have a discussion about where does King Crimson fit in the lexicon or the rankings or something, but just to say, I agree with you, I did not have an appreciation for them previously, and I think having seen your doc and then also listen a little bit more I certainly can see how - very, very long winded way of saying they remain fresh in their sound. I think it's a way of putting - because the question I would have had, and any question anybody would have approaching this, you got a bunch of guys who are - well, the older members are in their 70s, you know, what is it about these aging rock stars who can't let go? And that kind of - you know, you could argue but that's not this, that's not this band at all.
Toby Amies 39:51
They're not rock stars, and, I mean, some of them have got some gentle rock star tendencies, but what I think's really fascinating about them is that, you know, they all worked out how to stay in the game. And, you know, I think that they have different approaches to it but that word discipline is really important here. And I think...
Matthew 40:17
Yeah, go ahead. No, I was just gonna say do you think, like, is Robert's perfectionism, which is part of the grumblings that you've alluded to, is that also part of the reason they are aware of what they've achieved, what they have achieved, and are still achieving?
Toby Amies 40:35
Yeah, I think so. I think it's not even - I mean, Robert is often times presented as some sort of tyrant, you know. In Bill Bruford's autobiography, I think he's referred to as a cross between Joseph Stalin, Mahatma Ghandi and the Marquis de Sade. But it's not really, you know, and I have a sense, but I could totally be wrong, that this is related to Robert's study with Mr. Bennett, and Gorjuss, and also Spetski, it's the creation of an environment where things are encouraged to happen, but nobody's really being told what to do, per se. But that's one of the difficult things about King Crimson. And certainly, just speaking from my experience working in that environment, is that, like, if you are constantly referring to Robert for approval for what you're doing, it's not going to work out. You've been chosen, I think, for that environment, because you have something about your approach to the creative process that is valuable. And it's up to you to do your best version of that. I mean, obviously, it sort of gets moved within that space, and, you know, no one's entirely certain who has the final say, or, no one appears to be entirely certain who has the final say as to what that is, so it's quite a confusing environment, but it's an environment in which you're encouraged to do your best. And certainly, initially, it would seem that your definition of your best is the one that's at play. But, of course, you can drive yourself mad, trying to do your version of the best.
Matthew 42:44
And what you've just said, it applies equally to the band and equally to yourself, doesn't it?
Toby Amies 42:48
Yeah. And it also applies equally to Robert.
Matthew 42:49
And to all of us. Yeah.
Toby Amies 42:51
You know, I think, you know, that, sort of, you know, Jeremy Stacey refers to him as a hardass in that. One of the reasons I think he can get away with that, and one of the reasons that people are keen to sort of work in that environment is that he drives himself harder than anybody else, you know. As I say at the beginning of the film, there's only one person in that band that practices four hours a day, and coincidentally, he's one of the best guitar players in the world.
Matthew 43:21
Exactly. You even ask him if he could just have a day off! But, I mean, you just said, bringing out everyone's best, and he's created this environment. Do you think you've created your best? And what is Robert's - how does he, what does he feel about the final product in terms of the film?
Toby Amies 43:39
Can I just say that, like, people can drive themselves crazy trying to get positive affirmation.
Matthew 43:46
Not that you try! No comment.
Toby Amies 43:52
You know, initially, to be honest, I started off thinking that I was making the film for Robert. He's a very, very powerful presence, and you can understand why people refer to King Crimson as a cult, you know. I don't think he has any intention of doing that. You know, in the film, you see several instances of sort of expressed irritation and that irritation often times I think is to do with, Why are you giving me your problems to deal with? You know, I've clearly got my own that I'm focusing on. He has this - and one of his aphorisms, as he says, he's always looking for a better quality of problem. So, if you come to him with something that is solvable by yourself, then you get some irritation.
Matthew 44:55
I'll segue into that. No, that's very interesting. But what does Robert think of the film?
Toby Amies 45:01
Ah. Well, he said that, I suppose the first answer to that question is this film's not for Robert. It's for people who want to know a bit more about what King Crimson is. But he did commission it saying that he wanted, you know, the film to better understand the nature of King Crimson. I think that he - he's not interfered at all, by the way. Nor has the management. So, the only sort of critique I've had of the film directly in the process of making it was that it didn't have enough music in it. But I think that, like, apart from the moments of silence in it, it's pretty much throughout the whole thing. But you're gonna have to ask Robert what he thinks about it. I mean, I think that - I don't think it can be easy to see yourself on film. I mean, you know, there's a reason I used to be in front of camera, I shifted behind it. You know, I don't want to be that exposed most of the time. But I'll tell you what I think. At one point, he said it didn't really tell him what King Crimson is. But I think it does say what King Crimson is. And I think that the film says that King Crimson - well, this is - no, I'm not gonna say that, because I'm just telling the audience what it's about. So, I'm gonna take your offer up of cutting that bit out, if you don't mind, because I don't know what Robert Fripp really thinks about the film. But I think that Robert Fripp is more interested in what other people think about the film, because he wants the film to introduce people to King Crimson, which is something that really matters to him, and the film documents how much that band matters, both to the people who've been in it, and who are in it, and also the people who really love it. I mean, that's one of the things that I think the film - that I'm pleased with in the film, is that the sort of external voices of authority are fans. They're not music journalists, or other musicians, you know, they are people for whom the band matter more than - you know, they have peak experiences. So, I think, in a way, it sort of matters more what they think, if that makes sense.
Matthew 45:13
No, it makes perfect sense, certainly, especially now that I have seen the film. And in that vein, I mean, how do you make a film that lives up to those expectations, those fans' expectations. I mean, these people, as you say, have peak experiences at their concerts. And now you're trying - and there's a whole great section in the film where they talk, the band talks about that, trying to, because people come more than once, right? So, you've already had a peak experience by definition, it's your best experience ever of the band, how are you going to top...
Toby Amies 48:33
I want that again, please.
Matthew 48:35
Please, I want that again. Yeah. I mean, is that a lot of pressure for you as a filmmaker to - you know, because as you get into the subject, you know, you understand this, and it's great. I won't again, don't have to keep saying spoiler alerts, but I won't go into - because I think there's something about the fans that you bring in that are worth being surprised by, let's say...
Toby Amies 48:57
Yeah, yeah.
Matthew 48:59
So, I think that's part of the experience. So, I wouldn't want to affect anyone's watching experience, but that must put pressure on yourself as well. I mean, you have your own pressure you would put on yourself, anyway, but to know that you've got this fan base that has this appreciation for King Crimson and what they would want in a film about them.
Toby Amies 49:21
Yeah. I used to do this show on MTV called Alternative Nation, and it replaced a show called 120 Minutes, which had a great, a very sort of loyal, and expansive fan base all across Europe, because it was the only time that MTV showed sort of alternative or indie music, and so on. And MTV got rid of it overnight without warning anybody. And without speaking to the fans. It was just at the point where email had just about started. And I was over the moon to have this gig and I was a producer on the show as well as the presenter. But I was also aware that, like, the way that they got rid of the original show was pretty uncool, to be honest. And so, this new show I did turned up at the same time - same time slot as the old one. But with no warning. So, I was just aware that, like, all over Europe, and it was a small audience, but it was, you know, spread over. That two hours, those 120 minutes, you know, for a lot of the audience for that show, that was the only time that they'd watch MTV. And there was, you know, there was no YouTube or whatever, so nobody had access to this stuff, the only way you could get it was through MTV. So, the first word I said, was sorry. And I said, The old one's gone; there's nothing we can do about it. But this is your show. We'll do our best for the next two hours, if there's anything you don't like, let us know, you know, and here's the address. And the next week, we got, you know, some emails and a couple of letters and a few letters. And we name-checked everybody who had written into us. And within reason, you know, we did the things that they'd asked us to, and so, the people who hated us most were name checked, and they became part of the new version of the show. And that relationship to the audience has just informed my work ever since. Obviously, it's a very delicate balance - as a podcaster, you know, I'm sure you know this, that, like, the audience feedback is important, but you have to avoid what I think Sam Harris's called 'audience capture' at the same time, which is where you sort of pander to the audience too much, because you just can't pay attention to the comments, really. So, there's a very long answer saying that, like, with regard to the pressure from the fans, which I'm still experiencing, you know, I get emails every day saying, when's this thing coming out? I started off sort of researching them and spending time on the message boards, and so on, within reason, because I'm not that interested in how a particular time signature was played at a particular venue on a particular day, or whatever, but I am really interested in terms of why King Crimson matters to people, and how it matters to people, and how it affects people. So, sort of, I map that to some degree. And then having an understanding of that, I suppose that informed the interviews I did, because I would, generally speaking, when I was on tour with them, I'd turn up at the venue at sort of load in or just before soundcheck and sort of try and catch people in the corridors and maybe film a bit of people practicing. And then, when the band sort of would retreat to their dressing rooms prior to the show, I would go out and sort of talk to the fans and you could make an entire documentary on the fans. And in this I want to make clear that I was very influenced by a Depeche Mode film called The Posters Came From The Walls by Jeremy Deller and Nick Abrahams, which was commissioned by Depeche Mode, but they're not in it at all. It's just Depeche Mode fans. And I think it's one of the best music documentaries ever, because you get to see why the band matters to the people who care about it. And there's a bit in the film where I have a slight argument with Robert, where I say, you know, when you walk out on a stage, what's at stake, and in a very Fripp way, he demands that I ask him a different question. But, you know, I was very keen to show the audience why there is something at stake when that band walk out on stage and the best way I thought to do that was to show just how much it matters to the people who go and see them. And I also just, I really, and again, my camera struggled in the low light, but I just love seeing the impact of the music on people's faces, you know.
Matthew 54:46
You certainly get that with some of those crowd scenes, and it runs the gamut, doesn't it? I mean, in terms of gender, background, nationality. I mean, they resonate - King Crimson certainly resonates with their fan base.
Toby Amies 55:05
Yeah.
Matthew 55:06
And it's a varied fan base, probably more varied than I would have probably knew going in.
Toby Amies 55:15
Yeah, I think it's - when you're aware that, like, that there are, you know, famously, everybody says the queue for the men's loos at the King Crimson concert is like four times the length of the one for the ladies. It's sort of, like, there is that stereotype, and there is some truth in that stereotype. You know, they are a band who resonate now for a gentleman of a certain age, because they caught those men, you know, at a very important time in their lives. Simultaneously, I think it was very important to show that's not the only audience. And also, I think it's very important to get the sort of the best available spectrum of opinion about the band as well. There is a missing scene from the film, in which I was sort of there on stage, and I was walking around the halls in Bournemouth, in England, and I came across this rather morose looking lady in the bar. And I said, Do you mind if I ask what you're doing here? And I asked if I could film and she sort of, sort of agreed, so I filmed and she was just, like, I hate this, I hate this so much! And I wrote to her afterwards and said, Please, can I use this? And she wouldn't let me use it. But yeah, not everybody loves it and stuff, and it's sort of like, if you decided that you didn't like it, you must find it very hard. I'm still, to be honest, I'm very fond of the record Red. But I'm not an enormous fan of them on record. I tend to like stuff, which is, you know, I like Soul music a lot and stuff, so, not that there's no soul in their music, but there's not a lot of groove. And I tend to music that has groove - is sort of - it tends to resonate with me more. But live, they're just magnificent, you know; there's so many people I would love to take to see King Crimson live, you know?
Matthew 57:38
I think, so, well, if you can't make it to when their concert's live, or whenever they're next touring, do check out this film, I think we're coming to the end of our time, actually, Toby, so...
Toby Amies 57:49
You sure? Because I could talk for another four hours, Matthew.
Matthew 57:51
Well, I'm sure you could, we could talk about - because there's a lot of great, I mean, there's so many great scenes. And just what you capture, it's, I don't know, low light or whatever, whatever the aesthetics, you capture some amazing things, some amazing looks, and glances from band members, and, you know, things said under people's breath, and you're there and you capture it all. And I think it, you know - I don't know, you could try to play some sort of Netflix exec and say, it's a mix of this and this and this, and make all these reference points. I wouldn't want to do that. I think that would belittle the film. But I do think it's capturing so many things, all in one film. And it's, I think, anyone who has any - I'm like, yeah, I'm not gonna, to be honest, I'm not gonna go out and buy an album, probably, but, you know, or stream it too much. But anyone who has an appreciation for music, and the relationship between bands and their fans, and what bands, and, you know, Sam here is doing the recording, he used to be in a band, he was actually - used to be based in Arizona. And so, you know, it just feels like it captures all those dynamics. I mean, they're purely King Crimson, obviously, but there's so many universalities in there as well. And we haven't even gotten into the - some of the discussions you have with some very - even very poignant moments and people who aren't with us anymore. So, you know, I think it's - I highly recommend. I imagine the - I know you've gotten great reviews and thank you again for making this film. It's very much appreciated.
Toby Amies 59:48
Yeah, I think that no matter the genre, or the form it takes, I think great art speaks to the human condition, and so I think King Crimson matter because they do speak to the human condition. Not in quite such an overt way in the way that I'm discussing it. But they move people and so, I'm not gonna say for a second that the process was simple. But there's sort of something quite elemental about recognizing that and then seeking to communicate it in filmic form. So, just because it's - yeah, it's not a film just about King Crimson. It's a film about the creative process. And crucially, I think in terms of universality, as you say, it's a film, which asks the question, what are you willing to sacrifice in order to do something extraordinary? And that I think speaks to everybody. And with regard to the, you know, executive summary of it, my favorite one today is 'Spinal Tap meet Succession'.
Matthew 1:01:01
I love it because Spinal Tap - so, I was thinking 'Spinal Tap meets Beware of Mr. Baker meets'- I don't know who else. I was gonna throw a third one in. But yeah, I had Spinal Tap and has come to mind. So, I wasn't sure how you would feel about that.
Toby Amies 1:01:17
No, I think - I mean, you know, as Bill Bruford says, in the film, you know, without a sense of absurdity, you're lost.
Matthew 1:01:23
Yeah.
Toby Amies 1:01:24
I think that there are moments of absurdity there where there's a degree of self-awareness around them. And there's times when it doesn't, but I think the Succession thing is sort of good as well because if, you know, one of the things that's really interesting about that band, is that everyone's looking to the top of the pyramid.
Matthew 1:01:43
Yeah.
Toby Amies 1:01:44
But the top of the pyramid is saying, Look to yourselves. So, it's, you know, the feuding has to go back inside people, rather; it can't just be focused on the patriarch at the head, there. So, with regard to what's next for me, I'm just hoping somebody's going to say, here is several hundred thousand pounds to make a film, where you get to do exactly what you want, and we're not going to interfere whatsoever [laughter]. Which has been my experience.
Matthew 1:02:18
Sorry, sorry, I don't mean to laugh. But, no, I just...
Toby Amies 1:02:22
I recognize the futility of that myself. But that's how this film came about. I was working with artists who had sufficient respect for another artist to say, We think your art is good, make some art about this, and do the best job you possibly can, and we'll support you for it. And that has been my experience. And again, you know, with regard to that sort of punk rock impulse, it's, I mean, I can't - everybody seems to like the film. So, it seems to have worked. But again, yeah, can you imagine somebody coming to me and saying that other than Robert Fripp and King Crimson? I can't. So, I'm making a film about a beach at the moment, about a place. And that's got nothing to do with the fact that waves aren't particularly complicated individuals.
Matthew 1:03:15
I should leave it at that. But just one last thing, one follow up, because you remind me, because I'm - one of my other gigs, we've been pitching a political doc. And one of the references has been used is Succession. But one reason I think about, and one reason I laugh is, you know, and I won't say who the studio is, or who we've talked to, but it's always like you said, everyone wants to know the story, they want to know the three acts, they want to know, you know, all this stuff. And the thing is, as you say, access is key. That doc has amazing access. Got an amazing character, kind of a, not a Fripp character, but a character of that magnitude. Yet, it just - what does it say about our, about the industry, do you think, because it just seems - it's one of these, you go around trying to pitch and we're, the people who are doing the actual pitching, I just sit there on the calls, are tying themselves in knots trying to come up with stories that people will buy and - you know, will commission and no one will go for it, because the idea that you could actually just - what, you talk to other filmmakers, and they say, Well, you know, it's character driven, and I let it, you know, I let it be driven by this, and a story will come out, you know, but it's, you know, you must have faced this.
Toby Amies 1:04:49
Oh, I do. I mean, in terms of my practice, I have a sort of - if I say a day job that gives the impression I make a living out of it, but technically, I have a day job where I make short films about, broadly speaking, the creative process. And so, those things are fairly easy to compartmentalize, you know, to sort of create a set of circumstances, where everyone's got a pretty good idea of what's going to come out of the whole thing. But also, because they're short, the stakes are relatively low. So, I think that I - you know, I'm a great fan of, like, the sort of process of - and this is partly what you do as a documentary maker anyway, is trying to see something from somebody else's point of view. So, I can understand, if you have a limited amount of money, and your job is dependent on how successfully you spend that money, why somebody is not going to say, here's 300 grand, you know, to do whatever you want. But you're right, it's not conducive to sort of really finding the truth of something. I remember when I was working as a film journalist, myself, I was interviewing a variety, a sort of venerable variety, writer, and he at one point, he stopped the interview, and he said, Toby, in journalism, what we do is we, we sort of, we have an idea that there's a story there, and then we go out and we ask questions to find out what the story is, we don't decide what the story is, and then go out and ask questions in order to, you know, sort of reinforce that bias. But unfortunately, you can understand why people with lots of money would want to have an idea of what's gonna turn up, it's not like you say to a kitchen designer, Oh, just do something in there, and I'll pay you at the end of it, you know, you sort of want an idea. But, so, I think you have to be respectful of that transactional side of things, or at least aware of it. But in regards to what the answer is, then it's that I think you have to, you have to take a risk. And one of the advantages of working in the way that I do, you know, thanks to digital technology, is that I can amass a significant amount of material in my work without it costing too much, you know. So, I think that whilst it's not necessarily fair, you know, the methodology is that if you want to make something that has that sort of, that other type of truth, that sort of truth that you divine, or distill from your experience, then you either have to invest your own money, or your own time or both, in order to do that, but I think you get much better material out of it. But sacrifices need to be made, you know, and those sacrifices in strict production terms have to do I think with keeping your expenditure as low as possible, and being willing to take a risk. But my first film took 5, 6 years to make. And that film, I'll send it to you if you like, that's even more acutely about the filmmaking process, and there was a point in that in which I was making a film about somebody who was very vulnerable, and increasingly ill. And at the very point at which everybody else involved in the project kind of lost interest, because it didn't seem to be going anywhere, because it was just observational at that point, that's the point at which I sort of needed to kind of step in and act as a carer for the subject of the film. And that requires a significant investment. Just in terms of my time, and my energy. One that was entirely worthwhile and warranted. But I just think you have to be prepared to do that, unfortunately. Otherwise, because the audience doesn't give a shit where the money's come from, they just care about what's on screen.
Matthew 1:09:21
Yeah.
Toby Amies 1:09:23
You know.
Matthew 1:09:24
Well, thanks again for making this film. And I'd love to see that other film you're talking about. And also, do hope that someone does decide to give you $300,000 to make the film you want, whatever that may be!
Toby Amies 1:09:42
Give or take. Yeah.
Matthew 1:09:44
Yeah. Give or take. Yeah, exactly.
Toby Amies 1:09:45
I mean, at this point, Matthew is just what I do. You know, it's what Robert refers to being a musician, I think, is a vocation, you know, it's just that's what you do, and so, I'm always pointing a camera in one direction or not. And then you fold it all in together.
Matthew 1:10:09
Well, thank you, we'd love to have you on again...
Toby Amies 1:10:12
Absolute pleasure.
Matthew 1:10:14
Yeah, it was a great, great, great pleasure - pleasure's all mine. And again, just to remind our audience we've been talking with Toby Amies, director and co-producer of In the Court of the Crimson King: King Crimson at 50. It's premiered at South by Southwest in Austin, Texas, and a few other festivals. And we are really waiting for its wider release, because I know it will do quite well. And I know King Crimson's fan base is certainly waiting for it as well, so...
Toby Amies 1:10:13
Yeah. Feel free anybody to encourage Netflix, Amazon, Disney, or Apple, or Mobi to...
Matthew 1:10:54
Send those emails. I'm sure there's a - and pull your connections, or whoever. I think we get - well, anyway, I'm not gonna say too much about who does and doesn't listen to this, but yes, do put a request in.
Toby Amies 1:11:09
It's important to establish that inspite of how much I've been droning on, there's actually very little of me in the film.
Matthew 1:11:19
There is. You're definitely - you're always behind camera.
Toby Amies 1:11:23
Yeah. But it's also I think it's important to, like, you do have to kind of, like, it's only where it's necessary. It's not one of those - it's not all said in a "On my journey. I want to discover..."
Matthew 1:11:33
No, no, no, no, no. It's completely in keeping organic with the filming. To be honest, I don't even realize it's, for sure, that it's even you. You just hear these comm - you know, they answer a question, kind of thing. Well, I think any reference to Spinal Tap and Succession, and anything else, should sell you on that this is definitely an hour and a half worth your time. So, thanks again. Love to have you on again sometime in the near future and take care, Toby.
Toby Amies 1:12:10
Another five or six years when I finish!
Matthew 1:12:12
Yeah, well, that's kind of, that's the thing. We don't have too many repeat guests in these parts. We have only been around for about two and a half years. So, it takes a little while. But yeah, good luck with everything and enjoy this beautiful spring day, I'm sure you're having there on the south coast.
Toby Amies 1:12:30
Thanks a lot, Matthew. I hope I don't have anything incriminating in the background, either. I haven't checked.
Matthew 1:12:35
Besides the Boots box. I don't know. I think it's - No, it looks great. And thanks, it's been a pleasure.
Toby Amies 1:12:42
All right. Thank you.
Matthew 1:12:43
Take care.
Toby Amies 1:12:44
Cheers. Bye bye.
Matthew 1:12:46
Bye. I'd like to give a shout out to Sam and Joe Graves at Innersound Audio in Escrick, England, in deepest, darkest Yorkshire. A big thanks to Nevena Paunovic, podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show. And finally, a big thanks to our listeners. As always, we love to hear from you, so please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas. You can reach out to us on YouTube, social media, or directly by going to our website, www.factualamerica.com and clicking on the Get in Touch link. And as always, please remember to like us, and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.
Factual America Outro 1:13:29
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