Oscars Short Documentary Nominees
In this special episode three of the five nominees for this year's Academy Award for Best Documentary (Short Subject) join us to discuss their films.
When We Were Bullies, by the Award-winning director and writer Jay Rosenblatt, follows Jay as he tracks down his fifth-grade class and their teacher to examine their memories of and complicity in a bullying incident over 50 years ago.
We are next joined by award-winning director and producer Matthew Ogens. His short documentary Audible, produced by Netflix, follows football player Amaree McKenstry-Hall and his Maryland School for the Deaf teammates, as they attempt to defend their winning streak while coming to terms with the tragic loss of a close friend.
A two-time Oscar nominee, Ben Proudfoot discusses his short doc The Queen of Basketball, which tells the largely unknown story of Lusia Harris, the first and only woman to be officially drafted into the NBA.
“I love using the short documentary format to circumvent the traditional gatekeepers of what kind of stories get told.” - Ben Proudfoot
Time Stamps:
00:00 - Introducing the guests and their films.
03:00 - Introducing Jay Rosenblatt and what When We Were Bullies is about.
03:45 - What inspired Jay to make a film about bullying.
05:00 - Different memories people had around one incident of bullying.
09:02 - What it’s like meeting your fifth-grade teacher as an adult.
12:05 - Introducing Matthew Ogens, the director of Audible.
12:35 - How it feels to be nominated for an Oscar.
13:22 - What Audible is all about.
14:00 - How Matt met Amaree and his classmates.
15:24 - The different subjects Audible covers.
18:48 - What Amaree is doing now.
20:10 - What attracted Matt to make a short film and what it’s like working with Netflix.
22:36 - The next documentary Matt is working on.
24:07 - Introducing Ben Proudfoot, the director of The Queen of Basketball.
25:15 - What The Queen of Basketball is all about.
26:18 - Why Lusia Harris is not more well-known in the world.
27:46 - How Ben found out about Lusia and what influenced him to make the film.
29:53 - The way Lusia portrayed herself to the media.
31:28 - What her life was like up until now.
32:19 - Why Ben likes making short documentaries so much.
33:45 - How he gets funding for documentaries.
36:53 - The next projects Ben is working on.
Resources:
When We Were Bullies (2021)
Audible (2021)
The Queen of Basketball (2021)
The Smell of Burning Ants (1994)
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Jay Rosenblatt:
Connect with Matthew Ogens:
Connect with Ben Proudfoot:
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 92: Oscars Short Documentary Nominees
Matthew 00:00
This is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo Pictures, an Austin and London based production company, making documentaries about America for international audiences. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. This week, we have a special treat for you as we interview the filmmakers behind three of the five nominees for Best Short Documentary at the 2022 Academy Awards, to be held on March 27. First, award winning director and writer Jay Rosenblatt joins us to discuss his film, When We Were Bullies. A mind boggling coincidence leads Jay to track down his fifth grade class, and fifth grade teacher, to examine their memory of, and complicity in, a bullying incident 50 years ago. We're then joined by Matt Ogens, award winning producer and director of Audible, the tale of American football player Amaree McKenstry-Hall and his Maryland School for the Deaf teammates as they attempt to defend their winning streak while coming to terms with the tragic loss of a close friend and former teammate. Finally, Ben Proudfoot, who was also nominated last year in the best short doc category, discusses his film The Queen of Basketball, the electrifying portrait of Lucy Harris, considered by many as the greatest woman basketball player of all time, and the first and only woman officially drafted into the NBA. Stay tuned as we discuss these three great short docs.
Jay Rosenblatt 01:29
Hi, I'm Jay Rosenblatt. I am the director of When We Were Bullies.
Matthew 01:34
Jay Rosenblatt, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?
Jay Rosenblatt 01:40
Pretty harried. It's been probably the busiest time in my life.
Matthew 01:43
I wonder why! I mean, the film is When We Were Bullies, nominated for Best Short doc at this year's Academy Awards, releasing on HBO at the end of the month. So, quite a March for you. How does it feel to be nominated for an Oscar, Jay?
Jay Rosenblatt 01:59
Well, you know, it feels pretty amazing. I've made a lot of films over a long period of time. So, it's amazing to be recognized at this level, and especially by my peers, because to get nominated, it's the documentary branch that does the nominating, so, it feels really, really good.
Matthew 02:24
We've had some members of that branch on. So, it's quite a group of filmmakers that pass judgment and finalize the nominations. So, I assume you're going, right?
Jay Rosenblatt 02:38
I am.
Matthew 02:40
Okay! So, for our audience, because they haven't - most will not seen it - what is When We Were Bullies all about? If you don't mind, give us a short synopsis of the film.
Jay Rosenblatt 02:57
Well, sure. You know, it's about a lot of things, I would say. It's obviously about bullying, specifically, an episode that happened over 50 years ago when I was in fifth grade. So, it's also about memory. It's also a film about complicity. It's also a film about mortality.
Matthew 03:26
Well, having seen it, I completely agree. But let me ask you, has this memory really tortured you for over 50 years? Or maybe 'tortured' is too strong a word, but has it really, it's over - all these years, it's just - you've been living with this memory of this incident that happened in fifth grade?
Jay Rosenblatt 03:45
Well, you're right, 'tortured' is way too strong a word. And to be honest, for the first 25 years, I didn't even think about this incident. It wasn't really in my consciousness, as far as I knew, but, and I explained this in When We Were Bullies, when I was making another film about 25, now, almost 30, years ago, called The Smell of Burning Ants, I saw an image that was a boy, it's from an old educational film, one boy was pushing another boy around in a playground, and a third boy throws just a quick punch. It's, like, a split-second, maybe three frames - I actually counted it - and that brought me back to the fifth grade episode. Because I felt like I was that third boy, kind of involved, but not the main bully, kind of a collaborator, which is what I call myself in that film. So, that kind of gets into this whole complicity issue.
Matthew 04:46
And like you say, what does this say about the power of memory, such as you explore, because we find things are a little more complex, maybe, than you remembered them or were led to believe?
Jay Rosenblatt 04:59
Yeah, Absolutely. You know, I went back, and I interviewed as many of my fifth grade classmates as I could find. And I - probably, I would say, three quarters of the class, I was able to interview; almost 20 students. And most of them didn't remember the incident or only have a vague memory. A few remembered some specific parts. One person who was big part of the first film and this film, Richard, he had a very detailed memory, and as he was telling me some of the things he remembered, most of it, not all of it, but most of it, I felt it in my body. So, I felt like it was true. So, you know - big continuum of who remembered and who didn't. I will say everyone did remember the person that was bullied. I don't think there was anyone that didn't remember him. Maybe one person wasn't sure. But, no, the actual incident, I think is very commonplace. It was then, and I think it is now. You know, it wasn't an extremely violent incident, as far as I can tell. But, you know, these things, picking on a weaker kid, seeing someone's vulnerability, I think that's something that is still happening, unfortunately. And as we know, it's happening on the world stage.
Matthew 06:35
Well, indeed. I mean, you mentioned your classmate, Richard. I mean, what are the chances of running into your classmate 30 years after the fact and then finding out that he's - I mean, not just someone from your old neighborhood or went to your school, I mean, literally was in your class; was part of this event.
Jay Rosenblatt 06:48
That was - actually that was the impetus for starting the film. Because when that - let's call it coincidence - happened, we could not believe it. You know, I went to see him because I was looking for a voice-over narrator. I didn't know who he was. I just had heard his voice in one of my student's films. I didn't want to use my own voice. He lived across the bay in Berkeley. And when he looked at the script, he realized that from these lines that talked about New York street games, stickball, punchball, slapball, these, kind of, aggressive sounding ball games. He said, Are you from New York? And I said, Yeah. Where? Brooklyn. Where? Sheepshead Bay. We both kept saying, Yes, me, too. Me, too. We knew we were the same age. And then at one point, he says, Who did you have for fifth grade? We knew we went to the same elementary school. I said, turn the page, and it said at the top of the page, in fifth grade. At that point, it was clear, like you said, Matthew, that we were both in the same class. Not only was he in my class, but he was part of this bullying incident. He remembered more of it than I did. And this bullying incident was the impetus, the catalyst, for that film. So, 25 to 30 years later, 3000 miles away, we are connecting around this, it was just mind boggling. No other word for it.
Matthew 08:38
And then what's it like to track down your old fifth grade teacher? And I have to say, so I mean, spoiler alerts, but we won't - especially the short and especially the way this film evolves, I don't want to say too much for people about - unless you're happy to discuss it in detail. But some of my favorite lines I've seen in a doc film in recent years come from this scene. I think you ask her, Would this make a good film? And she said, No, no one will watch it. It's going to be tedious.
Jay Rosenblatt 09:10
Well, you know, that was pure gold. When that came out of her mouth. I thought, Oh my god. First, I couldn't believe she was saying it. She's just so forthright, so blunt, so honest, which was refreshing. And then I, you know, just the fact that she was telling [laughter] I just - I loved it. And I knew at that moment that it had to make it into the film. I mean, who would say something like that, really?
Matthew 09:39
I mean, what's that dynamic like? You're a 60, 70 year old man talking to his old - to his 90 something year old, but his old fifth grade teacher, is there's still the teacher-pupil dynamic at play?
Jay Rosenblatt 09:51
Well, there was that. If you remember in the film, when I get to her door...
Matthew 09:55
Yeah.
Jay Rosenblatt 09:56
... say, Hi Mrs. Bromberg...
Matthew 09:58
Yeah!
Jay Rosenblatt 09:58
... she said, Forget the Mrs. Bromberg. So, then, you know, she gave me permission to call her - her nickname was Bobby.
Matthew 10:06
Yeah.
Jay Rosenblatt 10:07
So, I was able to call her Bobby. But, you know, I still had profound respect for her. I mean, she was, you know, when I was growing up, you respect your elders, and she certainly was elder. And, at the same time, you know, she was so delighted to just have the attention. So, there was not really this power dynamic going on. I mean, I felt like, I wouldn't say we were peers, because she's of a different generation, but it felt very comfortable. And she was very, very gracious, very warm.
Matthew 10:42
The whole thing of watching this - I do highly recommend it. It did have me - I found my old first grade teacher just through one Google search, so, it's, like, you know, it's almost, it's tempting. It's tempting fate is what it is. But, I mean, without being - again, I don't want to spoil this, but, so, about the ending or anything, but maybe I can put it this way. Has the original subject of the doc been in touch since this has come out?
Jay Rosenblatt 11:10
No. He has not. You know, it is a bit of a spoiler alert. And, you know, some people might find the ending anti-climactic, I think, it actually is more surprising, the way I end it, in a sense, and actually, I feel more comfortable with the way the film ends.
Matthew 11:32
Well, personally, just my own two cents, I love the way you ended it. I think it was - I wasn't expecting it, but I thought it was perfect. Jay, good luck. Big thanks to you, and good luck. Congratulations again for being nominated, and wish you luck on the 27th. So, again, big thanks to Jay Rosenblatt. When We Were Bullies, nominated for best short doc at this year's Academy Awards, releasing on HBO at the end of the month.
Matt Ogens 12:05
My name is Matt Ogens. I'm the director of Audible, which is a short documentary that's currently nominated for an Academy Award.
Matthew 12:14
Matt Ogens, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?
Matt Ogens 12:18
Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.
Matthew 12:21
Yeah, no, it's - the film, the shorts, Audible, nominated for Best Short doc at this year's Academy Awards. Currently streaming on Netflix, which is where I saw it. Matt, how does it feel to be nominated for an Oscar?
Matt Ogens 12:35
I mean, I'm a little introverted and don't love attention, which is why I'm behind the camera. But I'm really grateful, and I'm humble, for the kids in my film, for Amaree and all the kids on my film in Maryland School for the Deaf, and the deaf community. To me, that's what it's about. And so, this nomination, to me, represents, really, inclusion and representation.
Matthew 13:00
Right. And you're going, I would take it?
Matt Ogens 13:05
I'm bringing my mother.
Matthew 13:06
Well done. Excellent! Oh, wow. She's gonna be so - she already is proud, I know, but - so, for those of our listeners who haven't had a chance to see it on Netflix, what is Audible all about? I mean, give us a synopsis.
Matt Ogens 13:21
Yeah, it's a coming-of-age documentary. Set in a high school, that's all deaf. And it's following Amaree, who's a senior in high school, and his friends in a pretty pivotal moment in their lives, you know, for any of us, graduating high school, you know, is one of those coming-of-age moments, I think compounded for someone that's deaf, going out, at least metaphorically and literally, out into a larger, hearing world.
Matthew 13:55
And how did you come across Amaree and his teammates and classmates at the Maryland School for the Deaf?
Matt Ogens 14:01
So, I'm from Maryland, from DC, Maryland, and I grew up about 30 minutes away from the school. And my best friend since I was about seven or eight years old is deaf. And so, in a way, this was a personal story for me, in a way, to connect and understand him more. And it took 12 years to get made. 12 years of a lot of doors being shut, of people thinking that there's not an audience for this.
Matthew 14:30
Wow.
Matt Ogens 14:31
And then I brought it to Netflix after 12 years of trying to get it made and they embraced it and understood it and was as confused as me as to why people thought the world wasn't ready for it.
Matthew 14:45
Okay. Whereabouts in DC are you from?
Matt Ogens 14:49
Northwest, and then - born George Washington Hospital, and then my folks split in Potomac where I grew up, and still there, my family, my extended family, is all over Maryland, in DC, sisters there, everyone, everyone but me.
Matthew 15:06
I lived there in the 90s and my wife's from - was not George Washington Hospital but what is it, the other hospital everyone was born in, in DC, so - but, maybe you can tell us what did the deaf - I mean, that's an amazing story, just in that itself, that's been knocking around for - or, the idea at least, been knocking around for 12 years and then now Netflix has embraced it. But what do - maybe you can give us a little more flavor, too - what do deaf students have to go through to play football? It's quite a challenge, isn't it?
Matt Ogens 15:43
I mean, I would literally say watch the film. Rather than me explaining it.
Matthew 15:48
Okay. I think that's a - I completely agree.
Matt Ogens 15:50
It's a fair answer.
Matthew 15:51 No, I think that is more than a fair answer. And then, I mean, so, the story - so, you didn't know - I mean, there's all these other stories. It's like you said, it's coming-of-age.
Matt Ogens 16:02
Yeah, look, I knew I was gonna follow a senior. I knew it was at Maryland School for the Deaf. I knew I wanted to follow senior year through the lens of the football season. That I knew. But obviously, I didn't know who the main subject would be because every year that person would graduate. So, over those 12 years, every year, I basically had to find someone new. And I'm glad it took that long, because if it didn't, I wouldn't have met Amaree. I wouldn't have met Jalen. I wouldn't have met Lera. I wouldn't have met Teddy through them.
Matthew 16:35
Right. Right. And, I mean - and how were, you know, it's - I have teenagers of my own. I mean, it's a lovely age; in many ways, it's an awkward age, too; I mean, how was it trying to approach them about sharing their lives because they share intimate details.
Matt Ogens 16:55
Not very hard. I mean, like, I don't want to sit there and say this was harder because they're deaf because it wasn't. At all. They had a story to tell. This is not my story. This is not an observational film of me looking in and shining a light. This is me being a conduit for them to tell their stories. That's why it's so up close and personal, and why it's so immersive. It's Amaree's story. We just created a safe space for him and his friends and his family to tell their story that hadn't been told. But certainly, having a best friend who's deaf, being from the area, but showing up every year, you know, even though I hadn't met Amaree for the first several years of that, showing up every year, till I was kind of invited in and trusted in his house. So, once I had that trust that extended to Amaree, but still it's a process, you know. I met him in his junior year; it's talking; it's empathizing; it's getting - it's connecting with someone before there's even cameras rolling.
Matthew 18:07
You must, I mean, you must be a legend around there. I mean, you must, they must. He was like...
Matt Ogens 18:12 They are the legends.
Matthew 18:13
... he is - well, I know. No, I agree with that but, I mean, you know, there's a story that this guy shows up every year trying to make a film, probably, you know, I mean, since...
Matt Ogens 18:24
I just did it. I didn't even think about it. I didn't think about it. It just - that's what my heart said and why. Look, I've done three, four feature docs, something like that, and many other things in between, but I couldn't let go of this one. It was top of the list, always.
Matthew 18:41
Yeah. And then, when did Amaree graduate?
Matt Ogens 18:51
He would have graduated June, May - June of 2020.
Matthew 18:57
Okay. So, what is he up to these days?
Matt Ogens 19:01
He is in Minnesota, and his winter sport was wrestling. And so, he's been pursuing deaf Olympic wrestling and practicing to qualify for that.
Matthew 19:14
Okay. Okay. Well, it's, I mean, it is an amazing, I think it's an amazing story that you're telling - they're telling. And it's extremely well captured.
Matt Ogens 19:27
Thank you so much.
Matthew 19:27
And it's exciting, because, like you said, they're telling a story, but you don't know and you're not just a fly on the wall, you're not doing that kind of stuff, but you don't know what you're going to get, do you? You don't know if they're going...
Matt Ogens 19:40
I don't know who's winning or losing...
Matthew 19:42
Exactly.
Matt Ogens 19:42
I don't know who's breaking up or staying together. I don't know what relationships are gonna happen. I have no control over that. What I can control is creating a safe space for them to be vulnerable and trust me and create a look and feel without manipulating any authenticity.
Matthew 19:59
Yeah. And as you said, you've made and produced a lot of features. What drew you to a short in this case?
Matt Ogens 20:10
No, I mean, it's a great question. I don't look at films by length. They're films to me, you know, whether it's a 30 second commercial or a four hour, you know, Tarantino film They're all storytelling and all wonderful, and I just don't categorize it by length, because, is a four hour film a feature, anymore, anyway? So, it's, like, whatever engages the audience and is the best format for that story. And I thought there was something we - meaning with Netflix - felt there was something interesting about focusing the story through the point-of-view of Amaree, and you meet everyone through him. You don't go off on tangents. So, even Jalen or Lera, or his dad or mom or Teddy are all through his point of view. Yeah.
Matthew 21:06
That's very interesting. And I think - and it's Netflix, so, you know, let's face it, a lot of people have a stereotype. They think Netflix does docu-series, and they do...
Matt Ogens 21:16
They do everything.
Matthew 21:17
... but they do everything. And they worked. And they were, and they're in...
Matt Ogens 21:22
They're storytellers.
Matthew 21:23
Yeah. Yeah. And it's whatever it takes to get the story across.
Matt Ogens 21:30
Yeah. In an impactful way, right? That in some ways, I hope that the film's like an emotional call to action. You know, people ask me, what did I learn? I'm a filmmaker, and in this case, a doc filmmaker, so you would think I'm an expert at listening. But we're all collectively deaf in our own way, and I'm not trying to compare it. I mean it symbolically, and I learned to be an even better listener.
Matthew 21:59
And what do you want people to learn from this film?
Matt Ogens 22:02
That. Like, let's talk less and think less and assume less. And listen more and understand more. And listening doesn't just mean listening with your ears. You know, Amaree's deaf, he can hear: you can feel with your heart.
Matthew 22:21
Well, I think it's an excellent film. Obviously. It's been nominated, but I think it's - but even if it hadn't been, I think it's - do recommend that everyone give it a watch. It's on Netflix, now. I mean, what's next for you, Matt?
Matt Ogens 22:37
I'm actually finishing up production on a new documentary I'm doing. I'm co-directing with a wonderful Nigerian filmmaker. And I can't say too much other than it has to do with dance.
Matthew 22:50
Dance. Okay. Is that...
Matt Ogens 22:54
Not football.
Matthew 22:55
Not football! Is this a bit of a departure for you? Or have you've done something like this, before?
Matt Ogens 23:00
No, I don't think it is, because it's always human stories for me. And so, if the vehicle is football or dance or anything, I like character driven stories that say something, you know, that has universal human themes.
Matthew 23:14
Okay. Well, that's certainly what you get with Audible. So, thank you so much.
Matt Ogens 23:20
Thank you for having me.
Matthew 23:21
Well, no, it's our pleasure. Big thanks to Matt Ogens. The film's Audible. Nominated for best short doc at this year's Academy Awards. Streaming on Netflix. Good luck on the 27th, and congratulations again.
Factual America midroll 23:35
If you enjoy Factual America, check out the MovieMaker podcast. That's all one word: MovieMaker, where our friends at moviemaker.com interview everyone from filmmakers just breaking in, to A-Listers like David Fincher and Edgar Wright, about their moviemaking secrets, and behind the scenes tricks of the trade. They go deep, and let the guests speak uninterrupted, to get you the most film insight. Now back to Factual America.
Ben Proudfoot 24:07
My name is Ben Proudfoot, and I'm the director of this short documentary, The Queen of Basketball.
Matthew 24:16
Ben Proudfoot, welcome to Factual America, how are things with you?
Ben Proudfoot 24:20
Things are good, how are you?
Matthew 24:22
Yeah, they're great. How does it feel to be nominated for an Oscar for the second time in a row?
Ben Proudfoot 24:31
It is, you know, it's something I could get used to! But not something that I am used to. It's an amazing feeling. It's an incredible honor in this category, right, as it's - I'm really representative of our entire film and more importantly of Ms. Harris and her story, so, I'm super-excited that this story has been lifted up by the documentary branch this year.
Ben Proudfoot 25:02
Yes, well, there's no excuse not to watch The Queen of Basketball. It's available for free on YouTube. No paywall, so I would encourage everybody to just go watch it. But to tease the movie, it is about the greatest athlete of the 20th century that you've never heard of. Her name is Lucy Harris, and she's one of the pioneers of basketball in the United States. She was an amazing human being. In addition to being just a dominant force on the court, she was the first and only woman officially drafted into the NBA. She led her small Mississippi Delta team to three national championships. She was the first woman to score a basket in Olympics history, the first woman, the first woman of color, enshrined in the Basketball Hall of Fame. And yet, you know, I bet you probably hadn't heard the name Lucy Harris. And so, that's what our film is trying to do is close that gap.
Matthew 25:02
Okay. Well, speaking of which, because most of our listeners or viewers probably haven't had a chance to see this, what is The Queen of Basketball all about? Maybe give us a synopsis?
Matthew 26:13
And that's what I was gonna ask you, why haven't we heard of Lucy Harris before this?
Ben Proudfoot 26:18
Oh, there's a lot of factors. I think that women's basketball and women's sports and frankly, women in general have not been recognized in proportion to their accomplishments and their achievements for the entirety of human history. But in particular, the difference is stark in athletics. I also think another factor is, you know, Lucy Harris was an African-American woman, you know, born in the 1950s in the Mississippi Delta. And, you know, that's not - Mississippi at that time was not a place that was ready to celebrate Lucy's achievements in the way that she deserved, or remember her in the way that she deserved. If anything, you know, it was only a few years since, you know, it was illegal for Lucy to go to Delta State University. So, I think her story sits at the intersection of, you know, both in her identity as a woman and also as an African-American woman, that really prevented her story from being celebrated for the past 45 years.
Matthew 26:53
Yeah. And how did you come across this story? Because you're not from the American South, you're not from Mississippi. You're from Canada originally.
Ben Proudfoot 27:44
I'm not from Mississippi! I was not a basketball fan! I'm just a filmmaker. And I love great stories, and I love great storytellers. And most importantly, I love using the short documentary format to circumvent the traditional gatekeepers of what kind of stories get told, and disintermediate the whole, kind of, commercial process that dictates what kind of stories we see. So, when I heard about Lucy's story, which was recommended to me by my colleague, Haley Watson, and I read, you know, this list of superlative achievements, and saw that there was no film, and I couldn't even find film of her playing. Her name was often misspelled. I mean, I felt as though there was a shameful and disrespectful gap between her accomplishments, and, you know, how well her story had been told and covered. And, you know, as soon as I met Lucy and talked to her and she was so interested in working together on this, it just became my mission, and then everybody else on our team's mission, to get this story out there.
Matthew 29:02
I was gonna ask you about that. I mean, working with Lucy, I mean, she's - I love the intro. I love how the film starts. But she obviously comes off as a very strong but humble person. She's had her own trials and travails. I mean, you said she was open to this, but you know that - I mean, she's - partly that's maybe the reason she isn't as well known, partly, is that she herself has kind of kept a low profile, I guess. But, you know, I mean, what - you know, she is this amazing person that she comes across the camera. Her charisma is amazing. And how did you - I mean, that obviously is natural to her, but how did you capture that?
Ben Proudfoot 29:02
Yeah, I mean, she's not a huge self-promoter, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that she's kept - she kept a low profile. She, you know, I think Lucy - she just wasn't boastful. She didn't, not a hubristic bone in her body. She was humble. She saw her talent as a gift. And she was gifted. She was quick to talk about other players who were just as good or better than her. In other words, she was a good person. She was a humble person. She is somebody that you'd want to, you know, be friends with, be neighbors with, etc. And that characterized her just as much as being one of the most dominant athletes of the 20th century. But getting to meet her and working together on this film. That's what came across to me. And I wanted to make sure that the film captured her unique personality, as well as her accomplishments on the court.
Matthew 31:05
Yeah, and I think you've done that. I mean, you've got all this great archive. But I think what, I mean, sells it for me is just those close shots you have of her looking to camera and talking about her experiences. She seems, like you said, someone you'd want to be friends with, neighbors with. She seems to be in a good place.
Ben Proudfoot 31:28
Yeah, you know, after all that she had been through, you know, she made decisions in her life in accordance with her values, and her integrity, and what she thought was the right thing to do. And when you do that, you may not have all the money or fame in the world, but you can sleep soundly at night, and that she did.
Matthew 31:53
Yeah. And, you know, this, as you're saying, you like making shorts, for various reasons. Are you going to be exclusively making shorts, as far as you see things? Or are you tempted by doing a feature? Or does it really - is not how you look at it, it's more about how to get the - what's the right way of getting a story across?
Ben Proudfoot 32:17
Well, you know, I'm very independent person, I'm also an impatient person. And I'm also someone that's very focused on the audience and my films reaching as many people as possible. And short documentary just wins in all those categories, right, because it's a different sort of commercial world, like, just the whole, the whole machine of raising money and pitching and spending 10 years making a movie is just like, Too. Darn. Slow. And not related to making movies, which is what I want to do. And it's like, I want to be in the kitchen. I'm a chef. I want to be in the kitchen. I don't want to be - I don't want to be talking about, you know, whether, you know, what kind of, you know, building should we put the restaurant in, you know, can we raise the money, does these folks think it's a good idea for a restaurant, what price point should we set the thing? I'd rather spend my time on Earth telling stories. There's too many not too. And short documentary allows me to do that, because I can pay for these films myself.
Matthew 33:40
So, how do you keep the light bill? How do you keep the lights on?
Ben Proudfoot 33:45
We make short documentaries for brands, right. So, our company, Breakwater Studios, we, you know, in our world of short documentaries, we also make films for brands, sponsored by brands, funded by brands, kind of like it's own, kind of, television economy, where brands are commissioning short documentaries that align with who they are as a company, what their values are. And we make those films and tell those stories. And that allows us the success to greenlight our own independent projects like The Queen of Basketball.
Matthew 34:12
And have you've seen that - I mean, not to get on a business conversation - but have you seen that pick up? I mean, is that something that's been evolving in recent years, and I imagine you've got plenty of demand for your services.
Ben Proudfoot 34:33
It's an enormous business. I mean, we can always take on more but, you know, not to get too businessy, but basically, you know, traditional 30 and 60 second television commercials are, as we're seeing by the Oscars making interesting decisions about how to get its viewership up, you know, that's what's happening, right, is revenue that can be generated by television commercials is reflecting the fact that not as many people are being reached by television commercials, and so brands, which need to reach people which need to have a seat at the table of the attention economy, you know, have to reach people, somehow. And so, that money that used to go to producing television commercials or, you know, traditional agency style storytelling isn't working. And so, they're looking for other ways to do it, and they're coming to filmmakers like me, and and others, you know, there are other, you know, Matt Ogens, who directed Audible, he's a very accomplished branded content and commercial director, too. A lot of us have a foot in this world. And that's how we keep the lights on.
Matthew 35:45
Well, we had Matt on just a few minutes ago, so, yeah, no, it will - I'm glad it's working for you, and it's not like, in many ways, this isn't all that novel. The Maysles brothers were doing the same thing. They made commercials and things.
Ben Proudfoot 35:59
Yeah, you know, Errol Morris...
Matthew 36:01
Errol. They all - yeah.
Ben Proudfoot 36:02
You know, you gotta pay the bills. I mean, the funny thing is, right, is that - is the illusion that, you know, a publicly traded company like Netflix has any difference than one of the brands that we work for. All of those companies have a fiduciary duty to make as much money as they can. That's the purpose of a public company, and so I don't see a difference making a film for Netflix than I do making a film for Charles Schwab.
Matthew 36:31
Yeah. And so, what's next for you? Do you have in terms of a another short doc or...
Ben Proudfoot 36:41
Today? Or in my life? [Laughter]
Matthew 36:42
Yeah, I don't know how many you make. I'm sure you're prolific. But no, what's some of the stories you're chasing after now?
Ben Proudfoot 36:53
I mean, I'm very focused on The Queen of Basketball. There's a lot more to be done. I mean, this awards campaign has been really exciting and a great way to bring, you know, the awareness around Lucy's story to another level, but there's more to be done there. More recognition to be cemented for her that will continue along beyond Sunday, the 27th. And I also think it would be a great story to turn into a narrative feature film. So, working on that. I'm about to release a film that we made with UNICEF, called If You Have, about the 75 year history of that organization, which is amazing. And in particular, their role in rolling out the Covid vaccine to 2 billion people who need it around the world.
Matthew 37:39
Oh, excellent. Very good. And I think that's very encouraging about keeping Lucy's story going. I mean, I think it's - we were talking - I mean, the thing is, I'm of an age, I remember, I mean, it's - it says a lot about what was going on in our society, because one of our contemporaries, who was also on that Olympic team was Anne Meyers, and she is who I remember. I didn't know anything about Lucy Harris before seeing your film. And I think that just says a lot about what was going on 40 to 50 years ago. So...
Ben Proudfoot 38:16
Yeah. It's still going on today, you know, I think we got to look, I think the major point is, whatever we all accept - you know, I think there's this unfortunate idea that history is some kind of meritocracy, right, and if you know about it, it's because it's worth knowing about and if you don't, it's because you don't, and I think people in America and around the world are starting to realize, you know, as social media has made people much more cognizant of storytelling and how things are spun that what we accept as history may not be what happened, you know, and that's what Lucy's story and that's what The Queen of Basketball really underlines is, who is this person? Who is this person who laid the foundation for women's basketball that you've never been told about? It's not that she doesn't exist. You just don't know the story, yet.
Matthew 39:12
No, I think it's one of the great things about the industry these days, I think, and I watch a lot of docs, but even if we're talking about events that people know about, it's getting new perspectives on them. And different people from different backgrounds, telling those stories. So, thanks again for joining us, Ben. It's been great to have you on. Wish you good luck on the 27th and congratulations again for your nomination and keep these shorts coming. We'd love to have you on again. To remind our listeners and viewers, we've been talking about The Queen of Basketball, nominated for best short doc at this year's Academy Awards. And watch it, it's on YouTube. You just have to Google 'The Queen of Basketball' for free. Yeah, you know, it's not even one of those YouTube ones you end up having to pay. Not at all. So, well done. Thank you again, Ben. It's been great to have you on and best of luck.
Ben Proudfoot 40:13
Thank you so much, Matthew.
Matthew 40:16
I'd like to give a shout out to Sam and Joe Graves at Innersound Audio in Escrick, England, in deepest, darkest Yorkshire. A big thanks to Nevena Paunovic, podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show. And finally, a big thanks to our listeners. As always, we love to hear from you. So, please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas. You can reach out to us on YouTube, social media, or directly by going to our website, www.factualamerica.com and clicking on the Get in Touch link. And as always, please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.
Factual America Outro 40:57
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures specializing in documentaries, television, and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests, and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list, or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @alamopictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films, and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk