The Letter

Factual America

24 Nov

Written By

Nicolas Brown’s new documentary, The Letter, takes its name from Laudato Si’, Pope Francis’ 2015 letter on the care for ‘our common home’ – the earth.

The film explores the journey of a group of people from different walks of life – some from the margins of society, others closer to the centre – as they make their way to the Vatican, for a meeting with the Pope.

In this special episode of Factual America, Nicolas and host Matthew Sherwood discuss The Letter’s twin themes: the climate crisis and biodiversity loss, as well as the scientific reaction to the making of the film, which was unexpectedly positive. They explore how the Pope became an environmentalist, and how St. Francis of Assisi inspired Arouna, Ridhima, and all those whose journey Nicolas followed.

Nicolas also shares some light-hearted moments from the making of The Letter – such as the day he had to work out whether Pope Francis would turn left or right when entering the room on the day of their meeting – as well as some deeply personal ones from his own career – for example, the day Sir David Attenborough spoke out for the first time to warn the world of the climate crisis.

The Letter is a film about a world in danger. But more than that, it is about people who are rising to meet the threat. Compelled by reality, they find in Laudato Si’ an ally in theology, and in Pope Francis, someone who is prepared to speak at the top of his voice with them, and for them, for the environment, and future generations.

Made by the award-winning Off The Fence production company, The Letter can be watched for free on YouTube (here).

“... what the film's really about is that the Pope has intuited this moment in time by which science and faith together can work out ... a solution to what arguably could be the biggest existential crisis facing humanity: climate change and biodiversity loss.” – Nicolas Brown

Time Stamps

0:00 – Trailer for The Letter
02:03 – Introducing Nicolas Brown, director of The Letter
03:46 – What The Letter is about
07:21 – The idea behind meeting Pope Francis
09:41 – The unheard voices represented in the film
11:39 – How Nicolas chose the people who feature in The Letter
15:39 – Scientific reaction to Nicolas making a film featuring the Pope
19:16 – The reason for The Letter being released on YouTube
21:12 – How The Letter got made
22:19 – The role of Off The Fence
22:50 – How Laudato Si’ lays a theological case for caring for the environment
26:40 – The Message of The Letter
28:38 – The necessity of working together
30:20 – How Pope Francis became an environmentalist
32:20 – Meeting the Pope
37:00 – Visiting Assisi and being inspired by St. Francis
38:11 – Climate refugees are people, not statistics
40:41 – When did Nicolas create the film’s narrative
44:11 – The life of St. Francis of Assisi
47:46 – The moment Sir David Attenborough stood up to say climate change is real
52:11 – Keeling’s Four Clocks
54:31 – Trying to catch up with the reality of climate change
57:42 – Nicolas’ experience of pitching a climate change doc with Fernando Meirelles
1:00:35 – Why Nicolas came to live in the U.K.
1:02:40 – The wide reach of the BBC
1:04:12 – Nicolas’ interest in seeking out new voices
01:05:35 – Discussing All That Breathes

Resources

The Letter
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures

Connect with Nicolas Brown

Website
IMDb

More from Factual America

All That Breathes
A Life on Our Planet: Sir David Attenborough's Witness Statement
Our Great National Parks with Barack Obama on Netflix
How to Pitch a Documentary to Amazon
Best Documentaries about Buddhism

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Transcript for Factual America Episode 113: The Letter

Nicolas Brown 00:00
My name is Nicolas Brown, and I directed the film called The Letter, with Pope Francis.

Speaker 1 00:06
The Vatican releases Pope Francis' wildly anticipated encyclical on the environment.

Speaker 2 00:11
[Nature is screaming: Stop.]

Speaker 3 00:16
[I am a climate refugee.]

Speaker 4 00:24
[The destruction of nature forces us to leave our homes.]

Speaker 5 00:30
[My biggest fear is to lose the forest to the incoming big-agro business.]

Speaker 6 00:37
Marine heat waves are causing an unknown amount of death among corals.

Speaker 7 00:38
I want all the global leaders to do something to stop climate change, because if it's not going to be stopped, it's going to harm our future.

Speaker 8 00:41
[You are social poets because you have the ability to encourage and to create hope where there appears to be misuse and exclusion.]

Speaker 9 01:05
[I can't stop thinking... it's like my spirit is on a voyage!]

Speaker 10 01:12
[The world will change because what was hidden is now being discovered.]

Speaker 11 01:20
[We need to create a strong bond, and never break it.]

Speaker 12 01:38
[You are my hero, you are.]

Speaker 13 01:38
[None of us is an island. We all need each other.]

Speaker 14 01:38
Try to be the change you want to see in the world.

Speaker 15 01:38
[Together we must protect the environment.]

Speaker 16 01:40
We arrived as individuals with very different stories. But we all shared a dream.

Matthew Sherwood 02:03
Welcome to Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary, and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. This week, it is my pleasure to welcome Nicolas Brown, the award-winning director and writer of The Letter. The Letter tells the incredible story of the Laudato Si' encyclical letter by Pope Francis, through the eyes of frontline leaders battling the ecological crisis across continents. A powerful dialogue with the Pope and the Vatican brings new hope for our common home. Join us as we talk with the Emmy winning director about the film and his career bringing climate change to life. And at the end, we even have a possibly surprising revelation about Sir David Attenborough. Nicolas Brown, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?

Nicolas Brown 02:50
Oh, really good, thanks very much. Glad to be here. Thank you for having me.

Matthew Sherwood 02:54
Yeah, it's great. It's an honor to have you on. We're talking about the film, The Letter, or, also known as the Laudato Si' film. I think it's got other subtitles that you've also mentioned in your intro. It's a YouTube Original. You can find it under The Pope, The Environmental Crisis, and Frontline Leaders. Typical YouTube title, and over eight million views in just over a month, I guess. And you can also go to the website: theletterfilm.org. Welcome, and congratulations on this amazing film you've made. Before we get really, I mean, as I said, eight million people have seen it, but I'm not going to assume everyone listening on this podcast has. So, what is The Letter all about? Maybe you can give us a synopsis?

Nicolas Brown 03:46
Well, I mean, it's a good question because, me not being Catholic, I was also not aware that the Pope is an environmentalist. It was something I discovered when I was actually approached by people connected to the Vatican, who said, you know, look, they'd seen Leonardo DiCaprio's film, and they were wondering, you know, could the Pope be in a film about the environment? Is that something that I would be interested in directing? Initially, I kind of wasn't because I thought I'd be the wrong person. But then I thought, Well, what if I brought science into the equation? And what if we, you know, what if we worked out an arrangement by which it wasn't a Catholic film, but it was a film about the Catholic Church reaching out? And I think that's the kind of - what the film's really about is that the Pope has intuited this moment in time by which science and faith together can work out one of the, you know, work out a solution to what arguably could be the biggest existential crisis facing humanity: climate change and biodiversity loss. And, you know, I think also, initially, I was quite skeptical. But when I read the encyclical that he wrote, and encyclical is a letter that the Pope, you know, originally would write to the bishops. And then, I think, like, around the time of the Bay of Pigs crisis, I think was the first time a pope sort of said, Look, I'm gonna write the encyclical, but I'm gonna broaden it out to all people of goodwill. And this is one of those. The Pope wrote this encyclical in 2015. And said, I'm writing to everybody. I'm really concerned about this. What can we do as a human family to talk about our common home? And so, yeah, I guess I was offered to make a film about that. I then jumped at the opportunity and realized there's no plot in his book. If you read it, it's actually great, it's wonderful philosophy, and very enlightening about how the, you know, how this - I would say, the world's oldest and biggest corporation, operates in this manner of like, looking at their historical - what can they say about a subject, and what Saints, and other figures, have remarked upon creation, including in the Bible. And, anyhow, we came up with this idea, basically, that we would bring four non-Catholics to meet Pope Francis, who are all on the front lines of climate change and biodiversity loss, and that they would have a conversation, they would have a dialogue, because that's the first thing that the Pope calls for, in his book, he says, I want to have an urgent dialogue about this problem. And so, that's what we did we, you know, Covid came, and, you know, the film died, and then was reborn, and all kinds of shenanigans. It took us four years to make it. But in the end, we got our four - well, five characters, four voices, voices of the youth, voices of wildlife, voices of the poor, and voices of the indigenous, all came to meet Pope Francis in this film. And that's the dialogue that happens, yeah.

Matthew Sherwood 07:21
So, that's very interesting. So, it was your, the filmmaker's, idea to bring these four people to meet the Pope. Is that right?

Nicolas Brown 07:30
Yeah, pretty much. I mean, the Pope meets with people all the time, right. That's his bread and butter. He meets with - he met with Donald Trump, he met with Obama, he met with, you know, he meets people. That's what he does. And he agreed, eventually, after we sort of described what we wanted to do, he agreed to meet us. And we then sort of told the backstories of these people. And the idea was that, you know, usually when the Pope meets with people, he'll meet with one focused group; like, he meets with oil executives, and then he tells them off. You know, he meets with a particular lobby that wants to kind of use his megaphone. And, in our case, we wanted to have this dialogue that represented his book. So, we said, like, you're going to meet with a lot of people from different voices, and we're going to make them the voices that are not heard, that are not represented. And you're going to use your megaphone to amplify what they're telling you. So, in other words, the indigenous leader from Brazil, he'd never been out of Brazil; the representative ambassador for the poor, he'd never been out of Senegal; in fact, he didn't even have a birth certificate, let alone a passport, we had to help him get all that to even leave the country. And then we call them initially sort of voices of the voiceless, or sort of voices that could come, and make their case about what it's like to be on the front lines of climate change and biodiversity loss. And that through listening, we felt that the Pope would then sort of amplify their voices.

Matthew Sherwood 09:19
And did you - so, what was the inspiration for just choosing these, you know, as you said, the poor, indigenous people, youth, and basically wildlife, the unrepresented element.

Nicolas Brown 09:30
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we - I tried to limit the number because otherwise the film would be, you know, like, six hours long.

Matthew Sherwood 09:40
Yeah.

Nicolas Brown 09:41
There are many unheard voices, but these seem to be some of the most acute ones that I think represent - I think they represent in terms of the climate crisis, and in terms of biodiversity loss, which we try to connect in the movie, the two issues are connected. These were the ones that we felt that we could tell their story, and that their impact would be something that the Pope would engage with as well. And I think particularly interesting in that mix is the voice of the poor. And I think, you know, that storyline ends up being one of the really main storylines, or threads, in the film. We handle the issue of immigration - clandestine immigration out of Africa to Europe. And we handle the issue of being a climate refugee because climate change for Africans, especially on the coast of Senegal, it's there already. And they don't necessarily have the same resources as, say, Americans, for example, to just move or deal with the problem. So, a lot of them are migrating. And usually you migrate once, and then you migrate again. And eventually you might migrate out of your country, and take great risks.

Matthew Sherwood 11:00
No, and I think it's - I mean, for me, personally, I thought it was - it can be potentially a difficult - well, it's obviously a difficult subject, but it can be a controversial subject in some ways. Maybe not rightfully so. But I thought you handled extremely well. Just personally, I mean, and with that in mind, how did you choose - I mean, as you said, there's - you could have, you know, there's millions of people you could have chosen from. How did you find these - well, it's more than four individuals, because there's a couple others, but, yeah, these people, how did you narrow in on them? How did you find them?

Nicolas Brown 11:39
You know, I think it was sort of like research, and trying to find out people who we felt just were representative enough. No one person can represent a whole group, you know, and, like, you know, when we were looking for the youth group, we could have gone to Greta, but we felt like she's already had the megaphone quite a bit. So, we went to Ridhima, who's from India. You know, in India, you can't strike for school; like school is precious, right. So, they're not striking - they're not doing school strike; like, they're so lucky to be going to school, they feel so privileged about it, they would never do that sort of a thing. So, Ridhima has to communicate her environmental urgency in other ways. And we just thought, you know, she's a great character. She's much younger than Greta. She was, like, twelve when we first met her. And so, yeah, we then just said, Okay, that's our person. Same with the indigenous person, we, you know, there are many indigenous people, and because indigenous people collectively sort of represent - they collectively protect about 80% of Earth's biodiversity now - we felt, like, alright, so, well, let's pick an indigenous person who we think is representative. We went to Brazil, we found someone who had been kidnapped and tortured in his background, and had really lived this experience directly, and could really communicate what it's like. And he was just a magnificent spokesperson, I think, not just for indigenous, but for all of the Amazon, and for the biodiversity. Similarly, with the scientists, Greg and Robin, are people who I've worked with before. I know their science, their science is big science. Greg is a, you know, he's - I think the youngest inductee into the Academy of Sciences. He's won the MacArthur grant, the Heinz grant. He's a genius, and his kind of - the way they do their mapping of biodiversity, and the way they understand both forests and coral reefs, I thought he was, like, the ultimate ecologist and could represent wildlife. He could really say to us, you know, what, if you wanted to bring the voice of wildlife out, what would they be saying to us? And then, finally, yeah, with Arouna, who's from Senegal, that was a difficult one. And, you know, again, yeah, you could have chosen so many people. I think I met Arouna in a - you know, he had been begging on the streets of Saint-Louis since he was six. And when I met him, he was at a sort of a, like, a hostel: de Maison de la guerre. It's a place where these kids are sheltered and get proper education. And within five minutes, we were talking about Immanuel Kant, and Nietzsche, and I was like, this is kind of crazy. You know, this is a kid who's only started his education when he was 16. And now he wants to do a philosophy degree. And he had a philosophical outlook on his own poverty. And I thought, I think you'd represent well in front of Pope Francis. I think Pope Francis would like you. And that is how we chose him.

Matthew Sherwood 15:14
And then what was the reaction when - I mean, you do show it, I should say, a bit of spoiler alert, but you do - the reaction; but, I mean, what was the reaction? I mean, they must have been - I mean, some - I mean, I know, we could go down the list, but I guess, let's start with the scientists, because that must have been a, you know, kind of, might have been similar to your thinking as well. Well, why are we going to be - what are we going to have to say to the Pope?

Nicolas Brown 15:39
Yeah, well, exactly. I mean, I think that I was pleased that they liked the idea. You know, as a scientist, you're risking your reputation, if you're in such a group of secular, kind of, many atheists or agnostics in the science community, you know, to kind of go out on a limb and say, Look, I'm going to go hang out with the Pope. I think, probably, I think Greg would have thought twice at first. But I kind of think he was the kind of scientist who is confident enough to kind of say, Look, I know, I'm not gonna get assailed for my science. I might get assailed for my personality or what I do. But I'm going to take a punt on it, because I think the issue is important enough.

Matthew Sherwood 16:28
Yeah.

Nicolas Brown 16:28
And I think that, you know, pretty universally, scientists have applauded him for making that handshake. You know, there are scientists, and I have dealt with science, the, you know, the people in the science community who have raised an eyebrow, and even kind of thought that this was a bad idea to get involved with the Catholic Church. But that is - that was, look, this whole thing for me started about, I've been making films for quite a while now, about this subject, I made a film with David Attenborough about climate change. I've made films about biodiversity loss. And largely, I felt I've been speaking to the same bubble all the time: People on PBS, people who watch Netflix, who can afford Netflix, people who can afford, you know, we're kind of a group of people who, yeah, we drink cappuccino, we're in the nice parts of the city. And that's our bubble. And we talk a lot about climate change, and worry about it. We're the professional class, etc, etc. And we're not very effective at communicating outside of our bubble. And what I think this film is about, is about communicating outside of your bubble. And I think the Pope, for example, is somebody who really reaches a lot of people who have, I've never been able to reach with my films. So, this to me is probably why Greg also would have said yes, as he recognizes the fact that we're in an urgent situation. We have to come together as a human race, and we have to break outside of our bubbles to sort of talk about the fact that the earth is heating up, the biodiversity is crashing. It's outstripping us. Reality is outstripping us. Outstripping the scientists and the public and the technocrats. And so, we have to catch up, and we have to talk about it. Urgently.

Matthew Sherwood 18:29
I think that brings us to a really good point to give our audience a bit of an early break. So, we'll be right back with Nicolas Brown, the award-winning director and writer of The Letter, YouTube original, also called The Pope, The Environmental Crisis, and Frontline Leaders, at least, that's the YouTube title. Over eight million views in just over a month. And you can also - I highly recommend you also check out the website, theletterfilm.org.

Factual America Midroll 18:58
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list, or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter @alamopictures, to keep up-to-date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.

Matthew Sherwood 19:16
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Nicolas Brown, the award-winning director and writer of The Letter. Nicolas, we were talking before the break about - well, besides perceptions in the scientific community, and also this voice this, this reach that Pope Francis has. I mean, is that one reason - is, you know, is that one reason you've released this on YouTube? Is that part of that?

Nicolas Brown 19:42
Absolutely. I think when we talked about making this film, it was important for us to really not put ourselves behind a paywall. So, this is not a film that's going to be going the festival circuit, or Oscars, or awards, Emmys, all that kind of stuff. This is a film that's meant to be shown in churches, or in the field somewhere out in Africa where people who maybe have heard of the Pope but maybe have not heard much articulated yet about the environment might watch it. And I think the movement within the Vatican, who were our partners in this, are very keen that we be able to show the film everywhere around the world without this idea of paying for it.

Matthew Sherwood 20:36
Yeah.

Nicolas Brown 20:37
You know. The message is urgent, and it should be free.

Matthew Sherwood 20:42
I mean, if you go on the website, I see you show where - there's even maps showing where you've had different public showings, and things; so, you've had quite a few. I mean, how does a film like - I mean, I know someone - is it the Laudato Si' movement, that's - I mean, how does a film like this get made? Because you're not going to make any return. You're not going to sell it to the broadcasters. How does this - Obviously, you have to live and pay the bills? How does it - How does something like this get made?

Nicolas Brown 21:12
It's - to be honest, and, you know, again, I'm not religious, but it was a miracle that it got made. You know, by-and-large, we had people who were either investors in the arts - like, the Vatican put in no money; there was no money coming from the Church at all. It was all either individuals or institutions who saw the value. We had a science institution - that science institution, I can't name because they had to leave the project, because people on their board felt uncomfortable. But then we had a lot of individual donors, private donors, people who were, you know, who were just - said, you know, this is important enough to back and, you know, let's make it; so, that's how we made it. And it took... yeah, it took a long time, obviously. But we got there in the end.

Matthew Sherwood 22:15
And when did Off The Fence, come on board? Or were they there from almost the beginning?

Nicolas Brown 22:19
They were there from the beginning They were definitely the - they were the production company that had sort of hatched the idea alongside a fellow who worked with the Catholic Church. And, you know, I suppose I came in with the science angle, and then, I suppose, the three of us went and shopped it around, tried to raise the money.

Matthew Sherwood 22:50
Yeah. I mean - and you say, bringing the science, because isn't that what - I mean, for anyone who's interested, you can go to the Vatican website, you can search for it. It's in several different languages. I think twelve, Laudato Si', the encyclical. It's definitely worth a read. I was glancing at it earlier. I mean, isn't that really what the Pope's letter has done. He's laid out a theological basis for caring about the planet, and saving the planet, but it's also backed by science. And he's trying to take things where maybe sometimes science feels like it can't go.

Nicolas Brown 23:27
I think that's right. I think - you know, look, this comes out in the film, but we as scientists, and I suppose, as technocrats, are people who are trying to solve the climate crisis. We have a lot of great ideas about how to do it. But we kind of fall down a little bit when we when we talk about why. The values behind why, and the moral reasons. Largely because I don't think that any of us in either the science community or these communities sort of see ourselves as moral leaders necessarily. We just sort of think it's, you know, let's present the facts, and people will just go and believe us. But that's not turned out to be the case. We've been presenting the facts for 20 years, and no one's been really listening rapidly enough. And so, having a moral leader, somebody who can kind of say, Look, there are value driven reasons for us to be doing this, and let's look at those. It brings a huge new dimension. And I think the Pope speaks incredibly eloquently as to why we need to protect creation, as why we need to care for the cry of the poor, and the cry of the earth. He speaks poetically. He doesn't use terms like sustainability development goals, or ecosystem services...

Matthew Sherwood 24:59
Right.

Nicolas Brown 24:59
... or, you know any of these sort of technocratic names, he sort of says, Look, there are compelling reasons by which we must all Care For Our Common Home. And he explains that for the religious community, this is how he sees it. And it's backed up by theology. And then he goes on to explain about how science can also back up the same message. But morally, it's our duty to think about our lives, and what we're, you know, the crossroads that humanity is in. And, you know, do we just sit by, you know, because if you're not part of the solution, you're gonna be part of the problem.

Matthew Sherwood 25:43
Yeah. And then, I mean, in terms of that, I mean, you've as you said, I mean, you've even probably longer than you'd want to admit, but been doing these sorts of films. I mean, and I mean, that in a way, because you've been, you know, people been harping about this for ages now, you know, decades. And we've just got the report in the last week or two, that the keeping climate, you know, the temperature rise to 1.5 degrees celsius is not going to be possible. You know; so, it's not thrilling news to say the least. I mean, what is - I mean, I know you're doing your bit, you've made this film, and many others, but what is, I mean, how do you see it now? Because it's - I felt, I feel like in the maybe even the last couple of weeks, we've kind of had this, everyone was starting to feel a little bit hopeful. And then maybe kind of shoulders have fallen a little bit, because we've got yet further signs that we're way behind the curve on this one.

Nicolas Brown 26:40
Yeah, I mean, I think the message of the film, which, you know, it's kind of interesting, the film, I, like, I harken it a little bit to the Wizard of Oz. And in the Wizard of Oz, you know, you've got, like, the four characters who kind of show up, and, you know, they think that the wizard is going to give them what they need to hear. And then they find out that actually, you know, the Cowardly Lion, you know, he had a courageous heart all along, he just didn't know it, right. In many respects, that is part of the psychological game that we're playing with ourselves. And we think that hope is like an emotion, but it's not. Hope is actually about - it's agency, it's about - it's a verb, it's things you do, and you create hope, just like you create meaning. And a lot of what Pope Francis talks about, I think, is very deep in that respect, that, you know, if you want to create meaning in your life, or create hope in your life, you have to kind of, you have to do things you have to take, you have to look inside yourself. I see the whole Laudato Si' project in many ways as a self-help project, in which you can look at your - and I had to look at myself. I myself was very much a prejudiced person. I thought religious people, were never going to help, because they didn't believe in science. You know, I just had that - it's a very American idea. I think that there's a split between science and religion. And so, I wrote off a big corner of the population. And through the process of making this film, I've sort of rediscovered, you know, it's like, you're fighting a war and you suddenly, you know, you're - I don't know, Lord of the Rings, and like, you're getting your ass kicked - I don't know if I can say that on here.

Matthew Sherwood 28:29
You sure can.

Nicolas Brown 28:30
Okay...

Matthew Sherwood 28:30
We've had much worse said.

Nicolas Brown 28:32
Alright, so you're getting your ass kicked, and then this other army comes over the hill to help you.

Matthew Sherwood 28:37
Right, right.

Nicolas Brown 28:38
And that's what this idea is about: Reaching out to the religious communities. There's a lot of faith based communities really do care deeply about the environment. And, you know, we now need their help. And we now need to kind of talk more about how we work together. And a lot of that is about human relationships, and working within the human sphere to, you know, as Greg says in the film, it's not what I know, or what you know, or what that person knows, it's what we know, together. And when we work together, then it's a lot easier to kind of collaborate with people and kind of say, well, look, let's set aside this area, marine protected area, and let's work with the indigenous people to manage it. You know, it's a good idea, let's go for it. And, you know, more and more ideas like that, I think, are where we need to go. But the fundamental blueprint that the Pope is offering us, is this idea of compassion, and - you know, one thing I want to say about the Pope's road to where he got to, which I think is really interesting, and you may share this with me that, you know, I got into environmentalism, because I lived in Colorado, I could go outside, I could go horseback riding, or fishing, or biking, and I think many of us have this privileged access to become interested in nature. And the Pope had none of that. He was never a nature guy. He came to environmentalism through working in the favelas of Argentina.

Matthew Sherwood 30:18
Buenos Aires, yeah.

Nicolas Brown 30:20
Yeah. In Buenos Aires. And it was, at some point, he had held this kind of conference called a parasita, where he talked to the Brazilian bishops who were like, you know, they were saying to him, you want to know why the favelas are filling up with people? It's because the land is being destroyed, and the values that are kind of pushing for this ever increasing need to develop are forcing people into, you know, off the land into - you know, one of the biggest migrations we've been having is from the urban areas - from the rural areas into urban. And this suddenly woke the Pope up, and he came to the same conclusion as many of us, which is that we must care for our environment, and for the land, but he came to it through the poor. And so, he combines the issues of poverty, and the environment in a way that we've not done that in the environmental movement. In the many years that I've been dealing with this, we've been kind of slightly dancing around, or ignoring, or had been hostile to that issue. We've been hostile to people, in many respects. And so, I think that if we are to move forward, we have to work with the humanity that we've got. And that is part of the moral argument that he's putting forward. So, I think that these are really important things to be looking at. And, so, the Pope in a sense, and the religious, the faith based environmental groups that are coming to the table, they do have something really credible to offer in moving forward. And, yeah, that's the kind of important message. And when you ask me, what should we be doing? We should be talking, like we are talking now. What can we do? What do we know that we could do to make, you know, to either address the climate issue or the biodiversity issue, or both?

Matthew Sherwood 32:20
And I mean, for you personally, I mean, you - guess you got to meet the Pope, right. I mean, how was - I mean, because I would assume you were there filming that - certainly that session where everyone gets to meet with him. We won't go into details about that, because that whole segment or two is - well, it's very, very moving. But so, what was your own personal impressions? What did you think?

Nicolas Brown 32:44
I was impressed with him intellectually from reading the book. And I remember he showed up early, which kind of freaked us all out because we weren't ready. He came like twenty minutes early. And we were just, yeah, we were, like, standing...

Matthew Sherwood 33:00
Is that - because that was - I wasn't sure if there was, like, a skip or something, but -

Nicolas Brown 33:03
Yeah, no, we missed it.

Matthew Sherwood 33:04
You missed it. You were trying to do this practice session, and all of a sudden, he's there?

Nicolas Brown 33:08
Well, okay, I'll tell the story as briefly as I can. But we were all set up for the Pope to go left as he entered the room because we were told he goes left.

Matthew Sherwood 33:16
Right, right.

Nicolas Brown 33:17
And so - everything was - and I have like quite a cameraman with a temper, right, and he was like, Alright, we got it all planned out. And then like, they said, Oh, the Pope's coming early, he's gonna come in, and he's gonna go right. And I'm like, Will, he's gonna come in and go, right. And he's, and Will's just like, screams at me saying, You know, I've got every shot set up to go left, the Pope must go left! Tell them the Pope must go left! So, I run over to the guy who's the Secretary of State or whatever, and sort of say, look, it'd be great if the Pope could go left, and shake hands on the left with everybody on the left.

Matthew Sherwood 33:50
He's like, The Pope doesn't go left.

Nicolas Brown 33:52
He was like, he just folded his arms, and turned his back on me. I mean, he just laughed. The Pope always goes right, apparently. So, we're like, running across the room as the kind of - you hear the door open. So, yeah, we totally missed the entrance of the Pope, and then boom, and he's there.

Matthew Sherwood 34:11
Right.

Nicolas Brown 34:12
But I have to say then, like, it was - it's a magic moment for all of us, because he comes in, and he is so present, and so, humble, and he comes and shakes everyone's hand, and looks them in the eye, and it didn't matter. Like, he did it to the cameraman, and the sound man, and the tech ops and - you know, he just is going to address everyone in the room as an equal human being, and he just exudes this ability to listen, that is very, very compelling and powerful. And, you know, I'd watched kind of Fernando Meirelles's film, The Two Popes, and, you know, I felt the reality of that, that he is in some ways, he's a reluctant pope, and then all the better for it. He's there to do good for beliefs, and values, and, you know, he has stripped away. He doesn't wear the gold frippery, he's not higher than thou. He takes his status and puts himself, if anything, like lower status than you, and makes you feel great. And that's a really powerful statement from a leader. And yeah, I was really impressed with him. Very, very impressed.

Matthew Sherwood 35:39
And how did - I mean, I'm just curious, because you have to condense it, obviously. But how long did he meet with you all?

Nicolas Brown 35:45
So, he came twenty minutes early, and he left twenty minutes late. So, it was about 80 minutes, which I'm told is like, pretty incredible, since he usually - yeah, even with state leaders, he doesn't ever do much more than an hour, usually. So, we were really fortunate. I think he, you know, he didn't relate with me that much, right. He was very interested in the people that we brought there, because they were the people on the front lines. And I think that he really got what we were trying to do in terms of Laudato Si', and his message. He could see that these were the voices who he wants to listen to. He is somebody who is always working for the underdog. And that's why I think he really, you know, he really listened, and really took the time. So, yeah, I mean, it's funny, though, because, like, going back to the Wizard of Oz analogy, he made an amazing speech, and it's in the film. But that's all a pope really can do for you. And you know, we were left kind of mid film with, yeah, oh, so, we've met the Pope. Now what? All right?

Matthew Sherwood 36:59
Yeah. Yeah.

Nicolas Brown 37:00
And so, we had this idea of like, well, let's go to Assisi, because he talks a lot about this guy, St. Francis, who he has taken the name from, and the Laudato Si' is actually a title from the one song or written song/canticle that we have from St. Francis. So, there's all these connections to this guy, St. Francis, right. And so, let's go figure out who that is. And we went there, and we went into the woods, where St. Francis, you know, this remarkable figure, this very Jesus like figure like a neo-Jesus, who kind of appears in the early Middle Ages. And that's, I think, when the magic really started to kick in, because instead of meeting the Pope, we started to meet each other. And it just so happens now that like on any given day, and you can take a group of people, I'm sure you could do this; like, you take a group of people from around the world, and then on any given day, talk about what's going on around the world, on around the world, and you'll find a climate change disaster, touching someone's life.

Matthew Sherwood 38:10
Right. Right.

Nicolas Brown 38:11
And that happened in spades to our poor friend Arouna, who's in the film. And, you know, he gets news about stuff that's going on literally, as he's meeting the Pope. There's disasters befalling him. And I think through that, the group starts to learn about each other, and about the compassion required to really get to know your fellow person, and fellow human. Because these are total strangers thrown into this, and they form a bond. And suddenly, I think climate change, you know, things like being a climate refugee is no longer a statistic. It's a human being, it's a person. And as soon as you make that shift from, you know, we've got this huge statistic, right, about how many people are going to be climate refugees. Well, now we know that one of them is Arouna. We know his story. It changes the landscape, right. It changes how you feel about what it is when you mention that term 'climate refugee', because you know one, and, you know, in the film, like, you've spent an hour with this guy, so you get to know Him.

Matthew Sherwood 39:27
No, I think that's - I think that's very important. At the same time. I mean, obviously, climate change increasingly, as you say, it's - I mean, the poor people in Africa, and other places who are living, you know, affected by it already, but it is something that is affecting all of us. It's an equal opportunity employer. I mean, if another wave of - well, you even allude - you even mention it: the fires in Australia, but we've got fires in the hills of California, more frequent hurricanes and climate events, and we had drought in Europe, this really severe drought this summer. And it's all happening, and whatever people think it's certainly happening more frequently than it was just a few years ago. I mean, it's - I think it's staring us all right in the face. Hopefully, people realize that. But no, I think it's a - I think that's a very good point. And I also find interesting this idea that, not that you had to create a story, but you kind of did. I mean, you have a writer credit, I mean, you do - this Wizard of Oz analogy, was that - I mean, was that something that came later that you thought about, Well, is like the Wizard of Oz? Or did you think this is the Wizard, I'm actually kind of telling the - you know...

Nicolas Brown 40:41
It definitely came later, I think. I think it came around the time when, you know, we'd worked so hard to get the interview with the Pope, that when we kind of like realized, Alright, now we're gonna have this moment with the Pope. It was kind of like, Wow, well, what's that going to do? Because, you know, the Pope's megaphone is big. And that really is the point, right. He's there to kind of amplify these voices. But is that going to really achieve anything? Like, what can - like, how am I going then show, you know, the average person what they can do about climate change, because, you know, you - what you can do about climate change is going to be different than what I can do. It depends on where you live, and it depends on whether you live in a, you know, in a rich community in the north, in the global north, or you live in the global south. We all know that, actually, those of us living in the global north are more responsible for the climate change that's going on. But, you know, we also have to point at those top 100 companies who are part of the oil energy market who are driving it, and who are resistant to change. So, what can you do, you know. What, you know, it's going to be different for everyone, and there's no one silver bullet. So, really, the, you know, what could we offer in the film, and the Pope offered a great speech, but it was, again, more emotive stuff. And I, it was, when we had our characters come together, that we're demonstrating, I suppose, the real message, which is, you know, having compassion, to not other somebody. To look at somebody who may be from very different walk of life, and to connect with them. And then to share your knowledge and pool, you're kind of - both your compassion and your energy, and to form a bond, form a family. I think that's very much the kind of our message point. It's sort of a software thing, rather than a hardware thing. It's not like go out, do solar panels. Yeah, yeah, do solar panels, if you can do solar panels, but, you know, do what you can with your fellow human beings. Reach out to those people, form a group, and, you know, each of us probably has, you know, what, 100, 150 people that are in our orbit that we might know. And within that there are relationships that you can capitalize on that you can you can use to do something good for the planet. And I think that's the point. That's the message.

Matthew Sherwood 43:35
Well, and I think that's a message well worth listening to. So, thanks for making it. And on a personal note, you know, one thing I hadn't really appreciated was with St. Francis, that language - I mean, just briefly mention this, but the language that he used in the thirteenth century, to describe nature and everything. It's very, very interesting, isn't it; like Sister Earth or Mother Earth, and things like that...

Nicolas Brown 44:01
Yeah.

Matthew Sherwood 44:01
It's very, very - It's not what you think of, actually, I must say, when you think of a saint from the Middle Ages.

Nicolas Brown 44:11
He's incredibly interesting. You know, I think when Francis Bernardone, the young man was a young - he was a rich kid who went to war and had PTSD after a bad war. And he was kind of trying to figure out what to do next with his life, and couldn't really hang with being a rich merchant, anymore. Because he had seen, and seen and been through things, and I think at some point early on his life, he met some mystics from the Celtic realm. And, you know, they blended a little bit of that, you know, the Christianity was there and the Jesus is really much, very much a focus of his theology, but I think there's a mysticism that comes in there as well where clearly he - you now, he goes out into nature, he sleeps in a cave, he kind of pushes himself to a level of discomfort, to kind of get closer to nature, to God, whatever it is, the mystery of life. And he gives up this - you know, it's very much like the Buddha story, too, you know, like, Siddhartha or something, you know, he's like, he like walks out of the temple of riches, and kind of tries to confront, experience full on, and get close to nature. And he finds himself – ultimately, he finds himself in this position where he needs healing and he meets a leper, actually, who he wants to help this leper falls down, he doesn't know he's a leper, and he is a guy who falls down, he goes to help him and realizes it's a leper, and he goes, Oh my god, I'm so grossed out. And I don't know if I can touch this guy or help this guy. But then he realized, Well, why did I have that reaction, and he suddenly realizes that if, by helping this person, I'm going to kind of help the world become a better place: that healed him, that healed his PTSD. And so, it's this blend of being a nature person and a person who loves the unfortunate, the poor, that makes a really heady mix, you know, it's that mix of nature and poverty that strips away values. And we see it in, whether it's in Buddhism, or it's in, you know, movies like, oh, the Krakauer one, Into the Wild, you know, McCandless burning his money, and kind of going out and having that kind of nature experience, and connecting to the earth or to fellow humans. It's a powerful story, the St. Francis story, and definitely, you know, there's not much written, it's more about actions. And it's really interesting when you kind of dig into that story, how powerful and potent it is. I didn't really even realize it. I was growing up in Colorado, and St. Francis is the patron saint of Denver, where I was born and the patron saint of Colorado. Where it - yeah - he's like an he's San Francisco, he's all...

Matthew Sherwood 47:26
Yeah.

Nicolas Brown 47:26
He's, like, he's ubiquitous, and, you know, kind of an alternate Jesus figure with a green agenda.

Matthew Sherwood 47:38
And, well before our time, certainly...

Nicolas Brown 47:43
Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew Sherwood 47:43
In terms - or in his time. I mean, it's just - it is amazing.

Nicolas Brown 47:46
In 2006, working with David Attenborough, we were both discussing the sort of subject. And I think both of us felt, you know, I don't want to put words in his mouth too much. But I think he was very much like me, didn't want to go out fists swinging, saying climate change is real. You know, we wanted to kind of sit back and go, you know, because I think we're both kind of the opinion - you know, my brother's not a professional or amateur meteorologist, and he would also sort of convince me that, you know, like this, the likelihood that humanity could affect something as big as the atmosphere just seems far-fetched, you know, should we not wait, and really think about this. And, you know, and it was a guy who was - the guy who convinced David was a guy named Bob May, who was at the time, an Australian chap who had won a Nobel Prize, I think, or something. He had done population studies and stuff. And he really knew his stuff. And he sort of said, Look, from where I sit in the science community, the signal has risen clearly above the noise. We need to look at this very carefully. And we spoke to glaciologists, to people studying the Amazon, to people studying fires, people studying coral reefs. And all of them were starting to say, look, independently, I'm seeing the signal rise above the noise. And at that point, we had a debate, like, does David do a last piece to camera or not? No, does he - does he nail his colors to the mast? And initially, he was like, Oh, I don't know. And in the end, he decides too, and he quotes the Bible. Yeah, he goes in and he did this speech. I wrote a speech, and he was like, he looked at it and gave me one of those looks like, This isn't very good, Nick. Give me a second, I'll write something that's worthy of me. And he went up to his office, came back down about ten minutes later, and says, You got one take, let's go. And we shot this take, and he said, basically, you know, We have sowed the wind, and now we're reaping the whirlwind, which is a biblical quote, and he was talking about climate change. And I remember at that point, I thought, Okay, this is going to be interesting. And, sure enough, like, you know, that as soon as it aired, nightly news was like, David Attenborough believes in climate change, let's get him on. And it was kind of a thing. I remember that was like a turning point, right before the World Cup, like, everyone was talking about it for, like, a week, oh, my god, climate change is real. And then the World Cup happened and everyone forgot. But for a week at least there was a moment in 2006, where we were all, like, going, Okay, this is, you know, this is real. And at that point, you know, what, this is how silly I am, I was like, Oh, done climate change, you know, made that movie, and, oh, can move on.

Matthew Sherwood 51:00
Alright. Alright.

Nicolas Brown 51:01
And then I just realized, like, no one's - like, people aren't listening. This is like, not changing. And I realized, ever since - that was - it was not long after that, that I realized, I don't, I don't want to go to Hollywood. I don't want to create - I don't want to film; like, I - before I thought, you know, eventually I'll be doing the new Star Wars or my own movies with dramas and famous actors. And now I'm like, Look, there's only one issue that I need to be worried about - two issues; they're twin. And that's climate change and biodiversity loss. And that led to The Letter, yeah.

Matthew Sherwood 51:37
Yeah Wow. And I think - I mean, the thing is, as you say, I think that's a very good point you make that it's a relative, - it's what, for lack of a better way of putting it, a very young discipline, right? Because the conversations I've had with people is like, I, you know, I've - as a kid, what were we hearing about, we're hearing about pollution, but we weren't hearing about global warming. Then we hear about global warming, climate change. And then biodiversity comes in. And we hadn't been hearing about that. But it's all because the science has been evolving, hasn't it?

Nicolas Brown 52:11
Yeah, I've read a really interesting book that has a great analysis of this because it - let's be honest, that, like, the science of climate change we've known about, you know, like Arrhenius wrote about it; like, it was like, that's like, hundreds of years ago that we've known about - the science has been solid since Keeling started measuring in the '60s and the '50s. The science was there. But what this book, it's called - I can see I've got it here somewhere - it's called Fire and Flood. And it has a really great analysis, where it says, look, there are four clocks ticking away. Clock number one is reality. And that's what's happening. And in the last seven years, the last seven years have been the seven hottest years on record. That's reality. What happened in Pakistan? That's reality, the melting of the glaciers in Antarctica and the Arctic. That's reality. It's the first clock. The second clock is science. And science is about five or maybe ten years behind reality, because we're still working out the models and trying to go, Well, why? Why is it melting so fast? Oh, I don't know. Let's kind of run backwards in time and figure out; is it carbon dioxide? Is it methane? Is it, you know, what is it? and so, science is sort of catching up to reality. The public being the third clock, we're like, ten, or twenty years behind the science, because we don't understand the science, and it's not being that well explained to us, and filmmakers, like myself, have been slow off the bat to kind of really be able to get our head around an invisible gas that you can't smell or taste, and you can't see, and, you know, and then like the fourth clock is the financial markets and the kind of politics combined. And if you think about who the politics, who the politicians and the financial markets are listening to, they're listening to the public, they're not listening to the science or reality they want to know where the market goes, and who's gonna like, you know, so they're chasing the wrong clock. And it's only now that the insurance industry is starting to look at reality and going oh, God, we can't pay for this.

Matthew Sherwood 54:38
Yeah, exactly.

Nicolas Brown 54:39
Holy shit; like, what happened in Australia. We can't pay for that. Like, where - we can't - you were insured for this, but that is, like, a lot of money, because a lot of money went up in smoke. So, the insurance industry is starting to kick in. And so, now that some parts of the financial market are starting to look a little bit more towards the science, at least, but all of us have some catching up to do when it comes to reality, Reality has been like ahead of us at every stage of the game. Like, who would have predicted Pakistan flooding like that, you know; if you could have predicted that, you know - I mean who could have predicted - like, I made another film about, you know, things like Brexit and the immigrant crisis, and the Arab Spring. And those things are political but they do have roots in the droughts that...

Matthew Sherwood 55:33
They do.

Nicolas Brown 55:34
... affect the grain markets.

Matthew Sherwood 55:36
Yeah.

Nicolas Brown 55:36
And, you know, like Egypt when Mubarak was toppled, the three things they were shouting were, 'Bread, Justice, and Freedom'. The bread was the wheat that they were unable to secure because Egypt had shifted to a flower market instead of producing grain, and so, they couldn't get grain because the droughts had locked it up in the commodities market. So, everything is all kind of interconnected now. And we're reeling from it at every minute, kind of decoding, looking backwards in our rearview mirror going, Oh, my God, that's climate change. And so, yeah, it's a young science, and it's a big one, because it's not just a science, it's like all the social stuff that goes on societal breakdown. And all the rest of it, which we're seeing in Africa a lot, at least where I've been working in Senegal. And so, you know, it's here, it's a present danger. And everyone's trying to figure it out. The scientists there're people now in COP, and Greta is kind of saying, you know, you guys aren't doing enough, it's greenwashing. But, you know, they're doing what they can, they're stuck in the system. And the bigger view, which I think is kind of what the Pope was kind of saying to us all is like, Come on, let's talk, let's get together, let's make this the number one issue. And, you know, there are lots of issues out there, don't get me wrong, but I think that existentially apart from an asteroid hitting us or AI kind of taking us over, and robots kind of killing us all. You know, climate is the big one, climate and biodiversity.

Matthew Sherwood 57:28
But as humans are so good at being distracted by other things...

Nicolas Brown 57:31
Yeah!

Matthew Sherwood 57:33
I mean, a pandemic part of it doesn't help, either. But, you know, we like to invade each other, and do all kinds of stuff, you know, so...

Nicolas Brown 57:42
I gotta tell you one more quick story. I did a pitch to Amazon, and I was with Fernando Meirelles - we're pitching this this blue carbon film - and I'm thinking we're gonna knock it out of the ballpark. You know, this guy's done The Constant Gardener, and he's done Two Popes, and he's like, such an award-winning kind of great filmmaker, and the two of us are going to pitch a climate change story to Amazon. I shouldn't say that, I should say an unnamed streamer. We're pitching to an unnamed streamer. And a big streamer, and we do the pitch, and, you know, Fernando's a little worried about his accent and stuff like that, and, you know, we do our pitch, and the woman says to us, Oh, well, that's really interesting. Climate change. Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, climate change is like going to happen in 50 years. So, do you guys have any stories that are about things happening now? And I'm just like, going, Okay, that's pitch over, you know, like, I don't know where to go from there. And Fernando is like, we get on the phone afterwards, and he's like, it was my accent, right? I was like, Fernando, no, it wasn't your accent. Promise. It - like, our world is screwed up. If, like, the head of commissioning docs for this major streamer thinks that climate change isn't going to happen for 50 years. We're - this is - we're in trouble, you know, people, like, yeah, we're in trouble. We got to get better at communicating this, and a lot of people have written really eloquently about why it's so difficult. It's difficult to communicate. There's a writer, Amitav Ghosh, who wrote a book where he talks about how completely unreal climate change is, it's like science fiction. So, how can he write believably about it? Because it's not real. It's, like, it's so big, and it's so - yeah, it's so scary for so many people.

Matthew Sherwood 59:48
Well, it's real. The Pope's talking about it. You're talking about it. We should all be talking about it. And - but before everyone gets discouraged, watch the film. It's a lovely letter. It's a lovely homage to a letter to all of humanity, of all faiths, and none. So. we were talking earlier - I mean, I think we're coming to the end of our time together, actually, Nicolas, but I was just gonna - we were talking earlier, you're from, as you say, you're from Colorado, that you're based in the UK. I'm from Texas, originally, based in the UK. I mean, what brought you over here? And why - I get asked this all the time - so, why have you stayed?

Nicolas Brown 1:00:35
Well, I was brought here by marriage, and I stayed because of the marriage. But I have to say also that, in terms of, you know, when I started to - when I showed up at the BBC, for the first time, I remember that was a little bit like I imagined, like an actor going to Hollywood and seeing the Hollywood sign, you know, for factual documentary, The UK had a very powerful hold over me. And I was, you know, really excited to be here. And eventually, you know, was just fortunate got to work with David Attenborough, got to work with various idols of mine. And so, in terms of like, a factual thing, factual programming, film, television, the UK has been a great place to actually work on a lot of things in the US as well, a lot of - I do a lot of stuff with PBS. And it's, I guess, it's that cross pollination in between, you know, the little island and the big land, that has, it's been a very fertile for all kinds of film and television, you know, all that kind of...

Matthew Sherwood 1:01:48
No, definitely. I mean, but it's not just nature, but especially nature. I mean, it seems like the UK, especially when it comes to nature docs and environmental, you know, as you say, I guess Attenborough's part of that, but it does seem to lead the way. And, yeah, I mean, it's an interesting - I think, I don't know how you feel about this, but the thing that always surprised me the most about this country, is because people always ask me about visiting the UK or whatever. And I'm like, well, it's not the cities, it's the nature here is, is the most underrated element I think of this country, sometimes. People don't realize how beautiful Britain is. And there is something that I don't know, maybe it's in the national psyche or something, that's really into...

Nicolas Brown 1:02:40
I mean, I think it's definitely is, and I think there's also that, you know, the greater Commonwealth, you know, they used to call the BBC 'auntie', and they said, Auntie knows best, and one thing Auntie would do is make films about former British colonies. So, you have a lot of films about Africa, for example, and that led to a lot of films about African wildlife or films about the Far East and wildlife there, Near East. Yeah, the reach and scope of the British Empire still kind of reverberates at least in that one element.

Matthew Sherwood 1:03:13
Yeah.

Nicolas Brown 1:03:14
A healthy interest in the natural world, and in all, its, you know, various forms around the - for viewers who don't know, there's a group within the BBC called the Natural History Unit. That's the one that's responsible for all these planet Earth and Blue Planet, and all the Attenborough stuff, and many others besides. And that, I think, that that is, yeah, it's been a big part of my life is working in that industry.

Matthew Sherwood 1:03:48
And we've had a few of them on, actually. So, we had the - well, it's not his latest anymore, but we had the latest Attenborough doc on, and some of the filmmakers behind that. So, already picked their brain about what it's like to work with Sir David Attenborough, but any chances you'll be working with him again? I mean, he's going strong still. So, or what's next for you?

Nicolas Brown 1:04:12
I mean, I'm - as I sort of mentioned, I'm very interested in, you know, with all due respect to David Attenborough, he is also - he's very privileged, he's white, he's like me. And I'm interested now in giving voices or searching out voices that are less represented. And, you know, I'm working on a film now called Blue Carbon, which is about, you know, about the kind of global south and how they're, you know, this is being talked about right now, as we speak in COP, which is, you know, the poorest - some of the poorest nations who did the least to cause climate change are the ones being most heavily affected by the sea level rise, by the storms, by the droughts, by the fires. And so, yeah, I'm headed in that territory. And yeah, I think that that is - that that's a whole new topic is how we get - you know, I'd love to see a black female David Attenborough emerge, that could be representative in Africa or the global south, and be a hero like he is to all of us.

Matthew Sherwood 1:05:35
Well, and I think that's - I mean that is also something we've discussed here is that, you know, these burgeoning film industries, indigenous film industries, actually, in a lot of these countries. We had the - gosh, I'm really bad, I should know the - I should know the films better that we have on the program, but we had the one narrated by Obama recently, and the filmmakers behind that recently, and they saying the same thing, working with local filmmakers, you know, I mean, it's part - this is more the sort of industry shop talk, but, you know, not having to bring a whole crew from Britain to go into a place, you've now got these talented filmmakers in these places that can do it just as well.

Nicolas Brown 1:06:19
Yeah, there's a few films out now that are being made by indigenous communities and, you know, great, new voices, you know, really brilliant. You just had also, like, from India, you had All That Breathes.

Matthew Sherwood 1:06:35
All That Breathes. I was about mention them, as well. I thought - and it's not, I mean, kind of like this, like your film. It's not - because I guess, maybe you get, I don't know if it rubs the wrong way, but sometimes people can say nature film, and people have a conception of Blue Planet or, you know, or at its best, sometimes, some people might even think to some of the stuff they watched as kids if you're, like, my age, but, you know, it is done, and it's storytelling in a different way, isn't it? And while still also, you know, All That Breathes, it's still that got that obviously, the one of the main characters is the environment.

Nicolas Brown 1:07:13
Yeah.

Matthew Sherwood 1:07:13
In the story, you know, with what those brothers are going through, and it's a lovely film. And there's more - may there be, you know, we call ourselves Factual America, but we're, maybe we should be Factual World or something. But, yeah, we're expanding our reach as well. But I agree. I think there's some lovely storytelling going on with this. I think it's, I mean, how do you feel about this? Because we've had different, you know, it's a well-trod path about, you know, how do you get messages across to people without scaring them so much that they scare them into inaction, and things like that, with the sort of environmental messages. And to me, it seems like another great way of kind of getting the message across, that it doesn't have to be pound on the head with a hammer type stuff. You know, you can - you know, there's a story here, and it's a compelling story, and it's driven, it's character driven. But let's face it, what's driving the story in the case of the film, we're talking about the horrible environmental conditions of Delhi, you know.

Nicolas Brown 1:08:28
Yeah, I think - I mean, it's a brilliant film, and it represents, I think, again, that, you know, you could argue that, you know, trying to save birds in Delhi is a little bit like Don Quixote charging at windmills. As the population grows, and the pollution gets worse. And, you know, I think that we, you know, heroism is standing up, even when the future looks bleak. And that genre of wildlife documentary, if it's just pure wildlife, and it just tells you that the wildlife are doing fine, it’s doing a disservice. I think what we need to do is inject the truth and that is that humanity is now as kind of mentioned by the Pope, I think, is that, you know, dominion is this terrible phrase in Genesis, probably mistranslated, but it's something that we - I always baulked at, I remember you know, like, Oh God, like, God should not give us dominion over the creatures, because that sounds like we just can use them and abuse them as we want. And the Pope actually, in Laudato Si', mentions that that's a kind of a misreading, that the real idea of dominion is responsibility. We have responsibility, and now more than ever, we are responsible for - we control the air, we control what's in it, we control the environment, we control what's in the seas, we control what's on land, through our actions we're pervasive. You can't go to the top of the Rockies where I grew up, and not find plastic in the snow. And so, really now, it's about that idea of, we put ourselves back in that picture. And we find the hope by trying to do something better, trying to make the world a kinder, better place for the future generations, because, you know, climate change, as it is already, is going to affect future generations of humans, not just the current ones. For, you know, if you believe the chemists, C02 persists for a minimum 200 years up in the atmosphere; so, it's a bleak - that's a bleak message to give out. But if you have people who are using their agency, finding agency to do something about it, that's the story worth telling.

Matthew Sherwood 1:11:11
Well, thanks for telling it. And thanks for giving - well, thanks for your thoughts on this, and also channeling the Holy Father in a way, as well. So, maybe unwittingly, or not. But thank you so much. And it's been a pleasure having you on Factual America. Really enjoyed it. And, Nicolas, best of luck with your next projects, and hopefully, we can have you on again sometime.

Nicolas Brown 1:11:38
Great. Thank you so much.

Matthew Sherwood 1:11:40
All right. Thank you. Just to remind our listeners and viewers, we've been with Nicolas Brown, the award-winning director and writer of The Letter, Laudato Si' film, is out this year, a YouTube Original. So, just search for it on YouTube, you'll find it's the first thing that comes up, along with some of the trailers. Over eight million views, and counting. It will go way up further, I'm sure. And also, the website, which gives you something - we haven't really discussed that, but tells you more information about these issues that we've been discussing. And that's theletterfilm.org. Thank you again, Nicolas.

Nicolas Brown 1:12:20
Thank you.

Matthew Sherwood 1:12:21
I also would like to thank those who help make this podcast possible. A big shout out to Sam and Joe at Innersound Audio in York, England. Big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show, and that everything otherwise run smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to our listeners. Many of you have been with us for four incredible seasons. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas. Whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. Please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.

Factual America Outro 1:13:04
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures, specializing in documentaries, television, and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests, and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @alamopictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films, and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk

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