The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck
Whether or not you give a f*ck, this is the film for you.
If you don’t care about anyone or anything, The Subtle Art shows why you should. If you do care, The Subtle Art shows why you shouldn’t.
It may have something to say, but The Subtle Art says nothing new. As director Nathan Price tells Matthew Sherwood, it uses ‘very old knowledge... Buddhism... stoicism... wisdom that's existed through the ages’ but it speaks in a ‘punky’ way that makes the film’s message fresh and relatable for people today.
At the heart of The Subtle Art is Mark Manson, author of the book on which the film is based. He uses the example of his life to firmly ground his words in reality. The Subtle Art is not a film that tolerates platitudes; only the truth.
Matthew’s conversation with Nathan ranges from the philosophical, as they discuss the difficulty of being human, to the nuts and bolts of shooting the film, which Nathan did in just eight days. Nathan reveals how a surprising encounter alerted him to the special nature of Manson’s book, the problems caused during production by NFTs, and the kindness shown by other creatives in letting their work be used in the film.
Nathan questions if The Subtle Art is even a documentary. In a way, it isn’t. It’s not even really a ‘self-help’ film for it goes much deeper than that. It’s no more, or less, than a film that helps you realise: realise that life can suck but happiness comes from solving our problems rather than avoiding them. And how do we solve them? By working out what to give a f*ck about, and what not.
“... the human body is so complex, the human brain is so complex, it doesn't hurt to meditate upon it... and..., I guess, you could think of this [film] as a really just hyper-pitched, crafted meditation session.” – Nathan Price
Time Stamps
01:42 – Matthew Sherwood introduces this episode’s guest, Nathan Price, director of The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck
04:13 – Nathan explains what The Subtle Art is all about
06:07 – Discussing Mark Manson, author of the book on which the film is based
07:10 – How The Subtle Art is a film without precursors
08:28 – How The Subtle Art is about more than its title immediately suggests
09:10 – How Mark Manson came to write The Subtle Art
10:19 – The Subtle Art: Speaking old truths in a new way
11:17 – The difficulty of being a human
14:47 – The kind of film Nathan wanted to make
16:59 – Introducing the grawlix
17:41 – Mark Metcalfe’s role in making a film version of The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck
18:46 – How Nathan became involved in the making of the film
21:36 – Filmmakers who inspired Nathan in the making of The Subtle Art
23:30 – The Subtle Art as a conversation with a friend
24:35 – The intensity that came with shooting the film in a matter of days
26:40 – Difficulties caused by the NFT boom and how Midjourney could have helped
27:38 – Nathan discusses some of the help he was given when making the film
30:01 – Matthew Metcalfe’s role in getting The Subtle Art accepted by a studio
31:21 – Discussing Nathan’s filmmaking background
33:28 – Early feedback for The Subtle Art
34:59 – The limits of Kant and Nietzsche in solving marital disputes
35:36 – What Nathan has learnt from making The Subtle Art of Not giving a F*ck
38:29 – Could a sequel to The Subtle Art be in the works
39:08 – What next for Nathan
Resources
The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Nathan Price
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 124: The Subtle Art Swears to Tell The Truth
Matthew Sherwood 00:00
This is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. Based on the global best-selling self-help phenomenon, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F* ck, is a cinematic documentary designed to help us become less awful people. In the process, it offers a dose of raw, refreshing honesty, that shows us how to live more contented, grounded lives. Join us as we talk with the director Nathan Price, about the challenges of making the book's important message interesting cinema through the use of entertaining stories, profane, ruthless humor, and punky cutting edge art. Stay tuned. Nathan Price, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you in Auckland, New Zealand?
Nathan Price 00:48
Very good. Very good. Life is good. The movie's coming out. I'm actually on holiday. So, yeah, it's summertime. Things are flying.
Matthew Sherwood 00:58
So, we can only hope for summer at this stage, us here in the UK. Just to remind our listeners and viewers we're talking about The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F* ck, the theatrical release is upcoming, right, in - it's US, Canada, and New Zealand, is that right?
Nathan Price 01:15
Our actual release is - no, it's already out. It came out on the fourth in the US. Came out here on the 11th. I'm not sure about the rest of the world theatrical. But - and I think it's on VOD in a lot of places as well.
Matthew Sherwood 01:30
Right. So, I would say - yeah, you can go to subtleartmovie.com for streaming information, I saw it for a whole host of countries there. And here for us in the UK, just to name a few: Amazon, Sky Store, YouTube, Google Play and others. So, but yeah, just go to the - the website address will be in the show notes; so, do give it a - do check it out. It's readily available. So, welcome again, to Factual America. So, maybe, well, this is how we usually kick things off, is for you to tell us what is the - and this is not an exercise in, say, how many times we can use the F-bomb, right, but...
Nathan Price 02:15
Or you can call it 'The Subtle Art'.
Matthew Sherwood 02:17
'The Subtle Art'. Yeah. So, what is The Subtle Art all about? Maybe you can give us a synopsis?
Nathan Price 02:25
The Subtle Art. I mean, it's unusual for a documentary. I mean, would you even call it a documentary? I'm not sure. I...
Matthew Sherwood 02:33
Yeah.
Nathan Price 02:34
It's sort of a palliative fever dream. It's - I guess, yeah, I think you can think of it on a couple of different levels. I mean, at a, at a kind of - if we talk about it first at a thematic level, it's kind of - it's about pain, it's about suffering, it's about being a human being. And the way, you know, loneliness, heartache, these things that can kind of overwhelm us and catch us and how we kind of - how our bodies can't really, sort of, distinguish between physical pain and emotional pain, and how the sort of survival instincts we have, have a way of kind of weaving these waves around - sorry, weaving these webs around these experiences, and sort of hardening us, and making us, I don't know, resentful, sometimes; sometimes angry, sometimes denial, sometimes overly positive, you know, sometimes we find ways to kind of try and protect ourselves from these experiences. And that can, you know, these sort of webs that we weave can lead to suffering, you know, it can lead to problems in our relationships, and then it's about being able to see that, and be able to step back and understand that that's being sort of human and that's okay, and that maybe there's an opportunity, once we see that, to change, and to kind of, to have a different relationship to suffering, because it is so kind of, you know, fundamental to human existence to our kind of experience as humans.
Matthew Sherwood 04:19
Yeah. No, I think that's a very good point. I mean, I guess another way I've thought about - I mean, I guess another way to look at is what this movie isn't, right. And it's not your typical self-help; well, I'll use the term BS, it's not an audio-book with moving pictures for those who are familiar with the book that this is based on, right. And, you know, this is a - I think I've got - because it is based on the book by Mark Manson, right. He's very much involved with the film.
Nathan Price 04:56
Very much.
Matthew Sherwood 04:57
And, I think, I saw - found a quote from him recently because he was also co-author of Will, with Will Smith, right. And he says - I mean, we're not - we don't even need to go there, but I mean, "because I've argued that it's in confronting the worst aspects of ourselves and being open about them that we find growth and help inspire growth in others." So...
Nathan Price 05:17
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 05:18
It's a very, very unique film.
Nathan Price 05:22
Yeah, it is. You know, when I was offered the project, I was really searching around for kind of genre precursors, as you do, and there's very little in this space. And certainly, no one has done it in this style, you know. I mean, there are - and there are lots of kind of - not lots of, but there's a few failed attempts, I would think, or not entirely successful attempts at sort of [...] self-help books. So, and certainly, there were producers who we were talking to, and people in the industry who felt we'd been passed - had a hospital pass, in taking on this project. You know, it's difficult because it's not, it's sort of phenomenological. It's sort of - it's about human experience, and what is going on inside human beings, rather than what documentaries often are, which is what's going on out in the world. So, that has its challenges. But, you know, I think that's where the film has a really interesting perspective.
Matthew Sherwood 06:27
Yeah. Yeah, no, I think it's - I mean; so, let's go back to the thematic, let's maybe go back to as you were taking it, the thematic side of things. I mean...
Nathan Price 06:39
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 06:39
I mean, some people - I mean, I've shared with people that, yeah, I'm going - get to interview you, and we're going to be talking about this film, and then give them the title, and either people are familiar with the book or they're not. But the usual reaction is, Oh, I know all about that. You know, I know all about not giving a fuck...
Nathan Price 06:56
Yeah, of course, yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 06:57
But the thing is, there really is - it's not about not - what we're saying is, it's not about not giving a fuck about anything.
Nathan Price 07:06
No.
Matthew Sherwood 07:07
It's about what it is - what you should be worried about. You know, what are the important things in life?
Nathan Price 07:14
Of course, of course.
Matthew Sherwood 07:15
And is that a common misconception that you had coming into this project, or with that title, or anything like that?
Nathan Price 07:23
I think it's an intriguing title, you know, and it has a kind of an interesting kind of backstory about how the publishers selected that. It was actually the name of a blog post that Mark did. And I didn't adequately set up Mark. Mark is a kind of - he was a - he started out as a blogger, and he kind of found this audience of - he started, actually, out as a dating coach, and he found that while people's problems with dating were actually a lot deeper than their problems with dating, they were more kind of human. And so, he kind of began - and at the same time, he's trying to figure his own shit out - kind of made that shift into kind of blogging about human experience, and how we can maybe better ourselves, or at least handle life a little more gracefully. And he really found an audience. He found a huge audience, he found - you know, he had a million followers. And that led to the book, which led to, you know, 16 million copies in the world. So, he somehow found this way of communicating this stuff. And that voice, and I think that's what you're talking about in the title, 'The Subtle Art', there's something punky and kind of...
Matthew Sherwood 08:31
Right, right.
Nathan Price 08:32
... it doesn't sort of - it sits a little strangely, but, I think, you know, that's the magic of what Mark achieved, and is achieving, is finding a way to bring this - and it's essentially very old knowledge, you know, it's Buddhism, it's stoicism, it's wisdom that's existed through the ages, but he's finding a way to speak it, you know, in a way that a lot of people are hearing.
Matthew Sherwood 08:56
Because isn't that what - I mean, a lot of the great religions have - because of its human existence, it is about human existence, and suffering, as you already said, is part of that existence. But somewhere along the way, we got sold this bill, or many of us did that it didn't - that the very essence of life didn't have - wasn't that way, or didn't have to be that way, or you could get - somehow, you could get beyond that, would that be fair? Is that part of kind of what Mark's getting at with this?
Nathan Price 09:30
Well, I think so. I mean, he makes an argument about the positivity, kind of - I don't know what you call it; the cult of positivity, but that you can just sort of positive think your way out of these situations. And just if you kind of are upbeat enough, then it'll wash off your back and you'll be fine. And so, he's saying that there's a certain dumbness in that. Whether we were sold a bill - I think it's inherently difficult to be a human being, you know, and I think, you know, from the Buddha's time to our time, the problems, the fundamental problems aren't that different, you know. You fall in love, you get your heart broken; you, you know, you love someone, they die; you're born, and you're told that you're gonna die soon, and, you know...
Matthew Sherwood 10:15
Right, right.
Nathan Price 10:16
It's hard to be a human. And also, we have these amazing brains that got us here. And these amazing bodies, and they're really hard to drive. They're just so complicated, and so subtle, and so capable of protecting us, that they can be quite destructive if not wielded, you know, gracefully; you know, we can hurt the people around us, because we're trying to protect ourselves; we can hurt the people we most love, because we protect ourselves. And we can fall down drain holes, you know, of doubt, and we can beat ourselves up, you know, our brains can be really mean to ourselves as well. So, I don't know if we were sold - yeah, I think they kind of - I think there's something about modernity, where this sort of logical, very logos centric kind of existence, you know, that you can just kind of rationalize your way out of these problems, isn't always helpful and it's pretty much how we think as moderns, and sometimes a bit of, kind of, spiritual knowledge or, you know, and meditation, there is sort of a mystical aspect of sort of understanding ourselves. And I think there are structural reasons for that. But I think it is partly to do with modernity, and I think we do live really, in psychologically difficult times; you know, I think, which they compute with the devices we have in our pockets...
Matthew Sherwood 11:38
Right.
Nathan Price 11:38
You know, we just have access to so much other human emotion flowing across us, and we're so - you know, emotion can be so contagious that it is hard for people now, you know, and I think you see that, you know, the rise of mental difficulties, for young people, and - it's a hard time; so, I think it is a very, you know, it's a very prescient message.
Matthew Sherwood 12:02
I mean, it's not even just seeing all these people seemingly having perfect lives on Facebook and everything. But even just literally, physically, physiologically, way our brains and eyes interact with that device...
Nathan Price 12:16
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 12:16
... also has an impact, right. It's releasing hormones and things like that. And we, as humans, are so unprepared for this, I think.
Nathan Price 12:29
Well, yeah. I mean, I guess the design is designed with the human mind in mind, and sort of a feedback loop, and if they can get what they want out of that interaction - yeah, that's - and I guess that's an argument why it's a really important time to understand your own mind, and to understand the subtleties of it; to understand - and I just want to also preface that it sounds like a serious film...
Matthew Sherwood 12:56
Well, I was about to turn...
Nathan Price 12:57
Which it is, it is.
Matthew Sherwood 12:59
Yes.
Nathan Price 12:59
But it's, I think, I guess I'm a little scared of egos. You know, egos can be very defensive and stuff. So, I wanted to make this - it's really fun. You know, it's funny, it's dramatic at times. It's bombastic. It's there to make you feel okay about being as weird and as broken as we are, and maybe find a way out of it, but it does that in a super fun - well, I hope, you know, way.
Matthew Sherwood 13:32
Well, let's keep it there. We're gonna give our listeners an early break, because I think that's the way we should - because it is - I have seen the film and I think it's a lot of fun. I would, you know, I recommend it. It's definitely well worth a watch. But, and yes, it sounds very heavy what we've been talking about, but - and it is, but it can be done in a way that's not - maybe I'm - sorry, if I've done you injustice, and made it sound off-putting to anyone, but....
Nathan Price 14:03
No, no, no. We talk about these things, and it sounds deeply serious, but I think - and that's what Mark has done, is he's found a way to - and I was really just trying to be true to that voice, to that kind of - that notion that you could say these things in a way that was punky, and nuts, and celebratory, you know.
Matthew Sherwood 14:25
And hence why it's sold 16 million copies.
Nathan Price 14:27
Exactly. You got it. Yeah. Something worked.
Matthew Sherwood 14:31
Something is happening there. So, we'll be right back with Nathan Price, director of The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck, theatrical release already in the US, New Zealand, and other places. Do check out subtleartmovie.com for streaming information. And we'll be right back with Nathan Price.
Factual America Midroll 14:53
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter @alamopictures to keep up-to-date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
Matthew Sherwood 15:11
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Nathan Price, director of The Subtle Art of Not Giving a hashtag-ampersand-percentage sign-exclamation point, or however you want to...
Nathan Price 15:11
A grawlix.
Matthew Sherwood 15:15
... yeah, exactly...
Nathan Price 15:17
A type of writing apparently.
Matthew Sherwood 15:28
What is that called?
Nathan Price 15:29
A grawlix. You used to have an Asterix comic?
Matthew Sherwood 15:32
Yeah, yeah.
Nathan Price 15:33
Yeah, yeah. So, it's the type of writing that's expressing - I guess it's very - you know, it was in Asterix comics, but it's like the emojis we use today, right?
Matthew Sherwood 15:41
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Ah, didn't know...
Nathan Price 15:44
Grawlix. There you go.
Matthew Sherwood 15:45
Good. I learned something - I've learned more than one thing today.
Nathan Price 15:48
There was some discussion in the marketing team about what grawlix to use!
Matthew Sherwood 15:54
So, I mean, let's talk. I mean, this is - like, as we were talking before the break, this is - it must have been an extremely fun film to make. Or maybe not, I'm sure it had a lot of challenges. But whose idea was - so, let's start from the - whose idea was it to bring a self-help book, essentially, to the screen?
Nathan Price 16:12
So, Matthew Metcalfe, he's the producer at GfC, he read the book and was quite taken by it. And he reached out to Mark. Mark had had offers from a lot of different people. People wanted to turn it into a kind of, like, a reality TV show, and all these different things. And Matthew's got a reputation for doing some pretty impressive documentaries. He did Capital in the 21st Century, a variety of films on race, you know, a lot of kind of sports stuff. But I think Mark saw that, and went, This is the kind of, you know, this fits with the ethos that I'm trying to get across in the book, and he felt [...] right, so they kind of connected on that level.
Matthew Sherwood 16:55
Okay. And then how did you become involved?
Nathan Price 16:57
I actually came in a bit late in the play. Another friend of mine was involved earlier on, and a treatment was developed, and then they reached out to me. I hadn't actually read the book, they kind of - so, you know, some friends - Fraser Brown, who works with Matthew and was an EP on this, he reached out to me, and, yeah, and so, I read the book. No, well, I actually did his audiobook. And I was like, yeah, I was kind of like, Ah, this is interesting. I mean, I guess as someone - you know, I've dabbled in Eastern religion and philosophy, and that kind of world. So, I understand it, and when I first read the book, it was sort of like, there's a part of me that was, There's not a lot that - I love his voice, but there's not a lot that's new here for me.
Matthew Sherwood 17:48
Well, that's interesting, right.
Nathan Price 17:49
Yeah. And - but then, you know what did it for me, is I saw it - I just suddenly saw it round everywhere. And most strikingly, I was at the swimming pool with my kids. And I saw this old - wizened old woman in a bathing suit...
Matthew Sherwood 18:03
Right.
Nathan Price 18:05
You know, and she was carrying this book, you know, through the swimming pool, and she was going to read it in the sauna. And I just thought, Ah, well, there's something really magical in that, you know; there's something - and we've been talking about: his voice. How did he make all this stuff, that we've all read but we had to read, you know, 100 books, and some of them were pretty boring. And I'm often trying to, you know, to convince somebody of some of these things. It's hard to do, because, you know, it's hard to find that voice that sort of cuts through their own defenses and their mechanisms, and you've got all those books in your head, but it's hard to make it simple. And so, I became really intrigued with that. And I just thought - I just, I - I just saw it as an opportunity to help people, really; you know, that if, you know, and looking into Mark's story, and the feedback he gets from different people, it changes people's lives. You know, they read the book, they often read the book at a moment of crisis in their lives, and it really helps them, and that was really moving to me. And I think that's what captured me, you know; that's what inspired me to get involved.
Matthew Sherwood 19:12
Okay. And then - I mean, so - and I think to this point, you're saying, yeah, there's hundreds of books, philosophers, different people you could draw on, but for whatever reasons, and as you said, there's like, even part of it can be the human defense mechanism, it's hard to get that message across to people.
Nathan Price 19:30
I think there's a certain audience that, you know, there's a sort of cerebral, intellectual audience who consumes that stuff, but for the rest of humanity, it doesn't spark.
Matthew Sherwood 19:41
And so, how do you make this interesting cinema, which you've done...
Nathan Price 19:45
Yeah, well...
Matthew Sherwood 19:47
Just to put it out there!
Nathan Price 19:49
I mean, we talked about looking for sort of precursors. I mean, the precursors that I was drawn to was, you know, films like Adam Curtis's work, what's it called? A Bitter Lake, and Century of the Self, you know, kind of an essay film type thing. I find those very interesting. I think they're still quite cerebral, and they're probably not entirely for the audience that I was going for. And then, also, you know, I was inspired by Errol Morris's work, you know, he does these great big interview films...
Matthew Sherwood 20:29
Right.
Nathan Price 20:30
He did one with Bannon, he did one with...
Matthew Sherwood 20:33
McNamara.
Nathan Price 20:34
McNamara...
Matthew Sherwood 20:35
The Fog of War.
Nathan Price 20:36
Yeah, and, you know - and so, this is structured, like - I mean, it's sort of a mesh of those two styles in a way, the sort of the grand interview, and the... and the...
Matthew Sherwood 20:48
The essay.
Nathan Price 20:49
The sort of video essay, kind of cultural critique, kind of pulling everything from everywhere, kind of - and I think it's also, it's some - it's a style - the YouTube video essay, you know, there's a whole kind of burgeoning of talented people doing that sort of work that I kind of, was inspired by as well.
Matthew Sherwood 21:09
I even thought - I mean, this probably - for, oddly enough, I even thought of - Have you ever heard of Swimming to Cambodia? Spalding Gray did this - he used to do these monologue things that they could actually - Jonathan Demme actually turned it into a film and somehow, you know, got...
Nathan Price 21:25
Right.
Matthew Sherwood 21:25
... really good reviews, but it was - because he did these little one man shows, and it was all based on his experiences. And it's literally - I mean, if we would pan back, it's a man at a table with a glass of water and a note...
Nathan Price 21:39
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 21:39 ... a notebook. And...
Nathan Price 21:40
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 21:40
... how was that interesting, right.
Nathan Price 21:42
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 21:42
How was that gonna make - but, at least, I found him interesting. I mean, it's kind of that same - not that it's just Mark sitting at a table talking to us about his book, but, because you've - but it is...
Nathan Price 21:54
Well, but part of it is that. You know - well, you know, one of the things I heard from his audience was that it was like sitting down with a friend at a bar. And, you know, rather than someone who is above you, or different, it's someone who's a buddy, who goes through the same shit as you do, who has been a fuck-up, you know - oh, sorry!
Matthew Sherwood 22:13
No, no problem!
Nathan Price 22:14
But, you know, and that - and so, that was what I was going for with that environment, was that feeling of sitting down with someone who's relatable, in a bar, who's as messed up as you are, but who's, maybe, you know, has got some kind of wisdom to help out.
Matthew Sherwood 22:32
And how does Mark's philosophy translate to the film world? I mean, was this - did this influence how you approach the project? I mean, you know, oh, we're gonna do things differently, you know.
Nathan Price 22:47
Well, no, I don't - I mean, it's the same - It's hard. I mean, we had seven days - I shot this thing in eight days, including the interviews...
Matthew Sherwood 22:57
Is that right??
Nathan Price 22:59
So, it's intense.
Matthew Sherwood 23:02
Oh, wow.
Nathan Price 23:02
Is it fun? It's...
Matthew Sherwood 23:05
No, that doesn't sound like fun!
Nathan Price 23:08
But, you know, it's fun, because you're doing these amazing things, you get these amazing shots, and, but, you know, obviously, it wasn't a big budget film. We had, and we needed to sort of keep a bit up our sleeve for music, and stock rights, and all that kind of stuff; we knew there was going to be a - so, we didn't have - I didn't have a lot of time to do what I needed to do. And that was super intense. You know, these - I was doing four hour interviews. There was one point, actually, when I was interviewing Mark, and I honestly felt like, you know, how, when you're doing a documentary interview, you have to be this receiving entity. And you just have to have this openness, because you are the entire audience. So, there's a real focus in that, an intensity; even though he's doing all the talking, and what he was doing was intellectually impressive, you know, and sort of, you know, it's a very impressive thing, but for me, at some point, his face actually started floating off the background of the image and sort of hovering in front of my eyes, because I've been staring at him for so long that I actually began to - and I sort of thought about those - it made me think of, you know, when the Sermon on the Mount or, you know, when a disciple is seeing a - given this information that you have these slightly mystical experiences. It was slightly - I mean, I expect it's an effect of the brain just looking at the same things for too long, but it's still in some ways mystical. It was intense. Yeah, it was a really intense experience.
Matthew Sherwood 24:30
And so, like you said, it's, well, relatively low budget. Then, as you said, keeps money up your sleeve, so some of the archival stuff, which is also done in a nice way as well, which is this kind of, it's kind of got a punky feel as well to it, in its way. I mean, in terms of the images and stock stuff that you pick.
Nathan Price 24:53
Well, archive - yeah, it's super challenging, actually. I mean, it's, like, how do you kind of express these very internal concepts, and very concepts of mind, and so, we did a lot of searching for artwork and digital artwork. It was slightly tricky timing, because it was sort of the NFT boom. So, all these digital artists, we were trying to get their work, and we lost a lot of work because of this, they were just suddenly, like, I can get ten grand for this, you know, I can get twenty grand. And we were like...
Matthew Sherwood 25:21
Well, you can go back to them now!
Nathan Price 25:21
Yeah, and so, we're right in the middle of that. And the other thing that would have made a really massive difference, I think, now, is if we were in Midjourney - I just did a project using Midjourney, and, you know, if we could have generated some of the art that's in some AI, that would have been perfect for some of the stuff that we wanted to do. But that was really challenging. And then, you just have to be really kind of creative with your - we found film - you know, we got in touch with the famous panda sequence...
Matthew Sherwood 25:50
Right.
Nathan Price 25:51
... is actually a commercial, that I used as a reference, and I thought AI could make something like that. But I'm like, I just don't have the time. And this is so good. And so, we reached out to Ali Ali, who's this amazing ad guy, ad director, and he was kind enough to let us use the film. And that made a massive - and then there was another guy, Cameron Gate, I found his - a music video thing that he had done on one of the other - there's amazing stock sites, now. And it had the character with the gold hood, and so, we reached out to him and said, Can we have your rushes, man? And we'll, you know, because this is a really interesting character for us, because we're trying to, and we haven't really talked about this, but we're trying to create some - this sort of meta-character that experiences the film. And so, that was a mission in itself. You know, it's not just the usual stuff of just people not wanting to give you footage. It's like, how do you find stuff that kind of expresses this, and in a kind of a crazy, artistic way. And then there were other things, you know, you can find amazing things. You know, those old war films we found...
Matthew Sherwood 26:57
Right.
Nathan Price 26:58
... from Getty, and they were actually Warner Brothers films. And Warners won't give you - the studio's generally won't give each other archive, anymore. They're just so competitive, now. But because they'd given them to Getty we were able to kind of - I probably shouldn't say that. I think that would get taken down, but...
Matthew Sherwood 27:12
No, no.
Nathan Price 27:13
You can find films, and then you find a big [...] in them, and then you can go, Okay, well, we've got all these shots. And now we can make the sequence. So, there was a lot of kind of really creative work done, and I have an amazing researcher who's actually in the UK, who I had worked with in ad times, and he was really good at that thematic research. But there's - I mean, we just went through, you know, literally tens of thousands of clips to try and find stuff that resonated...
Matthew Sherwood 27:37
So, did you...
Nathan Price 27:38
... and even then it's hard because then a bunch of it gets pulled at the last minute, they say we can't afford this, can't afford that, and you're like, Oh God, and so, sequences, you have to sort of rebuild. Yes, it's hard.
Matthew Sherwood 27:47
So, you did all the seven intensive days first, and then the rest came afterwards.
Nathan Price 27:53
Yeah, that was kinda how the production was designed, yeah. So, we were basically doing interviews, and then we would shoot kind of some, you know, re-enactment stuff in the afternoon, you know, after I'd done the four or five hours of interviews, and we'd just burned them out. And then we did the stuff in the pool, and we did a big opening number.
Matthew Sherwood 28:13
Right. Right. Wow. I mean, and then any attempts by, you know, Metcalfe or any others to get like a commissioner on board or anything. I can imagine trying to pitch this wouldn't be the easiest thing. I mean, you've got a big name, but at the same time, how are you going to, you know, when you're trying to put forward to them how this is going to look on screen, it might not be the easiest thing to get across to a broadcaster?
Nathan Price 28:40
Yeah, I think it was a long process of developing the treatment, which was before I got on board. The sort of initial treatment. But I think - I mean, I think Matthew has a first look deal with Universal. So...
Matthew Sherwood 28:56
Yeah.
Nathan Price 28:57
... he kind of - he is able to pitch them sort of ideas and see - we'll see what the interest level is. And, I think they - you know, I mean, you know, sixteen million copies, it definitely rings in a kind of a commissioner's ear, and if they can get it for the right money and stuff.
Matthew Sherwood 28:59
Yeah.
Nathan Price 29:06
... which is, yeah, so tight budget, fairly big audience, you know - I think that begins to go, Oh, yeah...
Matthew Sherwood 29:20
Okay.
Nathan Price 29:23
... somehow. But then there was a challenge of like, Yeah, can you - no one has ever really done a self-help film in this way. It's a risk. I mean, they definitely sort of, you know, rolled the dice...
Matthew Sherwood 29:33
Yeah.
Nathan Price 29:34
... and I think that's why, you know, I'm not a traditional documentary maker. That's not - my bread and butter is TV commercials. So, I come from a world of, you know, and I think they wanted that; they wanted something where it was more bombastic; it was more kind of - I don't know what the word is, you know what, you know, that thing we talked about, that it's bombastic, it's not too serious. It doesn't - it's not just aimed up here, it's kind of - I don't know, whatever crazy thing I...
Matthew Sherwood 30:08
No, but I think you bring up an interesting point because I was gonna - was this - had you made docs before?
Nathan Price 30:13
I'd done some at film school, and I really enjoyed them. But nothing really since then. I mean, you know, I've done - I do TV drama. I do documentaries - no, sorry, not documentaries, but sometimes, you know, the commercials, they do have sort of a documentary feel, yeah. But, no.
Matthew Sherwood 30:32
But yeah, but the thing is, for commercials to resonate, they have a very limited amount of time, don't they, to get a message..
Nathan Price 30:38
Well...
Matthew Sherwood 30:39
... you know, and so...
Nathan Price 30:40
... it's a very poppy medium. It's like, you have to find the part of yourself that's going to resonate. You know, an advertiser doesn't want, you know, they don't want 100,000 people. They want everybody, you know, so you've got to find that way to kind of tell a story that really connects. So, in a way it is... yeah, that's the craft you really hone there. It's like trying to take the parts that you find interesting and artistic and hone them into something that's poppy, and that's fun to engage with and catches people and is different. And, yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 31:15
And then that becomes a, you know, basically, it sounds like a perfect marriage for what - and having seen the film - what they're trying to do with the project, isn't it? In terms of - yeah.
Nathan Price 31:29
Yeah, I guess so.
Matthew Sherwood 31:30
Well, you let the audience be the judge. And basically, I mean...
Nathan Price 31:33
I will, yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 31:34
... you have, what kind of - it's early days, but what kind of feedback have you gotten?
Nathan Price 31:40
I think it's - you know, it doesn't seem that different from the book. Some people love it, you know, and some people were like, it changed, you know - some people are like, I've kind of heard this stuff before. Some people are like, I fucking hate it; you know, and it's really interesting, getting that feedback. It's good for me working on my own, trying to deal with my own ego, kind of thing, you know. Like, I heard an interviewer and they're like, The editing really soared, and then heard that some other guy, you know, some guy's got ten views on YouTube, but it feels the same. And it's like, he's like, This is the worst editing I've ever seen in my life. It's probably the worst editing I've seen in a documentary. Okay! I don't know, you can't - yeah, and it's really interesting, actually. I just sort of watched the - on IMDb, you can see there's a real bump out at one, then it goes - sort of go back up, and then it sort of goes up, you know, 7, 8, 9; there's a real lot of people will love it. There's people who hate it. And then there's a lot of people who love it. And then some people who was like, Meh. You know, I sort of know this stuff, but doesn't hurt to know it, you know. And some of the interviews - and I think if you're, you know, some people, were going to have the same reaction I had, you know, as like, Ah, you know, I'm pretty well read, I sort know this stuff, it's kind of, like - that said, you know, for me my experience of it, you know, I read that stuff, but I learned a lot doing it, you know, just - it's - with any of this stuff, when you're trying to - the human body is so complex, the human brain is so complex, it doesn't hurt to meditate upon it, you know, and this is, I guess, you could think of this as a really just hyper-pitched, crafted meditation session. If it is stuff you already know, you know, you could...
Matthew Sherwood 33:11
Doesn't hurt.
Nathan Price 33:11
... just the way - it doesn't hurt to kind of re, kind of, reacquaint yourself with these valleys because if it was buried in Kant or Nietzsche or something like that, it may not kind of, like, pop to the surface as readily as you need it to when you're having an argument with your wife or you're feeling just down in the dumps.
Matthew Sherwood 33:30
Yeah, I don't think pulling Kant or Nietzsche when I'm having an argument with my wife is gonna get me very far!
Nathan Price 33:37
Exactly! No, but I mean in terms of, like, managing your own kind of, like, energy outwards.
Matthew Sherwood 33:42
But you said you learned a lot from the project. What are the some of the things you think you've taken away from it?
Nathan Price 33:48
Well, I've sort of deepened my kind of interest in mindfulness and meditation, and just thinking about my life that way. It was, you know, it was actually quite a hard film to make, you know, just the editing was a complex process. And there was the sort of tension within our crew and stuff, and having to kind of - one of the things I learned was, everyone has - you know, this film is partly about what's going on in you, but the same stuff's going on in everybody else. And when you're having trouble with someone, often it's because of that same stuff, you know, and kindness goes a long way in terms of, if you can accept that you're flawed, and you can accept that they're flawed, it's a really nice place to start with, and it's okay, and it's human, and it just - that sort of feeling of kindness. I think that's one of the main things I got out of it. And I was really impressed with Mark, you know, he's been really successful with this, but I don't think - the money doesn't really - you know, that sort of worked out for him, but he doesn't - he was really in it because he actually cares about the people. You know, he's had all the success, but, you know, I was talking to him and I was like, make sure you get - you know, you're trying to get your guys to get some sleep before the interviews and stuff that they're on, and he's like - every Sunday, he sits down for two or three hours, and replies to his fans who have written him letters about their problems and blah, blah, blah. You know, a lot of them his assistant can do, because he can say, Oh, he's already written an article on that, but he takes 18 or 20 kind of most difficult pieces. And he writes personally back to them, and he finds that as a way to kind of stay in touch with his messages and stay in touch with his audience. And I was just impressed by that kindness, you know, that desire to kind of help other people, you know? And yeah, I don't know, maybe it's made me more attuned to that, and want to be more like that myself, and spread that kind of love a bit, I don't know. Maybe... you're always learning.
Matthew Sherwood 35:57
Yeah. And well, I certainly am. I mean, I think, or is in a more punky way, I think the film and the book puts it, you know, you're not special but I think that was his way of saying that we're, like, you've just said, we're all so similar. And at that once you just realize, I'm not the only one that's, I don't know, upset about this, or resentful, or suffering, or put off by something, you know, but wait a minute, what maybe what's - just understanding that other person that you're dealing with, you know...
Nathan Price 36:28
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 36:28
... you know.
Nathan Price 36:29
And I think in our work as filmmakers and stuff, that's really important, because we do put ourselves in stressful situations, and a lot of people - the people you work with, they're often trying to do a lot of, you know, they're trying to do the best job they can; they care as much as you do.
Matthew Sherwood 36:42
So, on that note, I mean, Nathan, is there - I mean, is there a possible sequel in the works based on Mark's other books that he's done?
Nathan Price 36:52
I'm not sure, actually. I know, there was an option attached to some of his other work. I'm not sure what Universal - I think they might be waiting to see how this goes, or I'm not sure exactly...
Matthew Sherwood 37:06
Right.
Nathan Price 37:08
But nothing that I know of is in the pipeline.
Matthew Sherwood 37:12
And, I mean, we're - hard to believe, but we're coming to the end of our time together - but what about you? More docs? What's next?
Nathan Price 37:21
Yeah, I would love to do more docs. I mean, there's some really interesting stories here that I'm interested in, in New Zealand. Yeah, and I've got, I'm also interested in the idea of sort of turning certain things into dramas, that could be documentaries. You know, I think - I just want to make films that people enjoy, and that help in some way; help us understand ourselves, and help us be better humans or something, and help me be a better human. So, definitely, you know, that space is something I'm really interested in. And yeah, there's a couple of little things that [I'm] sort of picking away at.
Matthew Sherwood 37:57
Okay. All right, well, thank you so much, Nathan, for coming on to the show. I really appreciate it...
Nathan Price 38:05
Thank you.
Matthew Sherwood 38:05
Just to remind our listeners and viewers, we've been talking with Nathan Price, the director of The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. Theatrical release already in US, New Zealand and other places. Check out subtleartmovie.com for streaming information. And here in the UK, number of places: Amazon, Sky Store, YouTube, Google Play and others that I'm sure I'm missing. So, Nathan, thanks again. Really, really enjoyed it.
Nathan Price 38:36
Thank you, Matthew. Lovely to have this conversation.
Matthew Sherwood 38:40
I also would like to thank those who help make this podcast possible. A big shout out to Sam and Joe at Innersound Audio in York, England. Big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show, and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to our listeners. Many of you have been with us for four incredible seasons. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. Please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.
Factual America Outro 39:22
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures, specializing in documentaries, television, and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests, and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @alamopictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films, and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk